Who is the best player in the world at the moment?

Shanotheslayer

Neymar

irishman86 wrote: »

Or 4 goals in 9 taking away the hattrick

That's not how it works.

The Golden Miller

Neymar

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

That's not how it works.

Depends on the context of the point being made

Shanotheslayer

Neymar

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Depends on the context of the point being made

The point being made was Messis goals scored in the qualifiers.

Bridge93

irishman86 wrote: »

Or 4 goals in 9 taking away the hattrick, look at all the three games mentioned where og was the only one on the score sheet

Why would i watch highlights of a game i watched live, they fell over the line because Messi had a poor qualifers in general covered up by the last game.
I was using the scored goals as thats what was put to me, i rate Messi high where did i say i didnt. All three of the players i mentioned can do all you say Messi does its not bias on how i view the game, everyone has bias. People from the eighties prefer Maradonna seventies Pele etc etc

It's a bit convenient to just disregard the game where he scored a hat trick to pull them through by himself when they looked in big trouble. He had a poor qualifiers by his standards but if 7 in 10 is poor it shows the level of the man. If the other forwards contributed 4/9 Argentina would have qualified at a canter.

Argentina didn't fall over the line because Messi was poor. They fell over the line at all because Messi was there. Without him one of the best international sides would have failed to qualify. They fell over the line due to the other big names not performing.
And leaving aside good performances, bad performances etc etc when it came to the crunch game he stood up.

The Golden Miller

Neymar

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

The point being made was Messis goals scored in the qualifiers.

I suppose the point being made is that a whole heap of goals in one game can flatter to deceive a players performance in general. Although, I don't particularly agree in this case, it's just something that happens quite regularly on these boards. Messi has been decent in this qualifying campaign, and it would have been unfair on him to have been made the scapegoat if they failed to qualify. Huge problems in the Argentine senior team and there has been for a long time for whatever reason, and their qualification has just papered over the cracks

irishman86

Lionel Messi

Bridge93 wrote: »

It's a bit convenient to just disregard the game where he scored a hat trick to pull them through by himself when they looked in big trouble. He had a poor qualifiers by his standards but if 7 in 10 is poor it shows the level of the man. If the other forwards contributed 4/9 Argentina would have qualified at a canter.

Argentina didn't fall over the line because Messi was poor. They fell over the line at all because Messi was there. Without him one of the best international sides would have failed to qualify. They fell over the line due to the other big names not performing.
And leaving aside good performances, bad performances etc etc when it came to the crunch game he stood up.

Off course i can disregard them. They fell over the line as Messi as well as the team was poor. You say without him they wouldnt have qualified well thats just bs, they may have qualified sooner.
I agree he stood up in the last game, just not in the previous three

irishman86

Lionel Messi

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I suppose the point being made is that a whole heap of goals in one game can flatter to deceive a players performance in general. Although, I don't particularly agree in this case, it's just something that happens quite regularly on these boards. Messi has been decent in this qualifying campaign, and it would have been unfair on him to have been made the scapegoat if they failed to qualify. Huge problems in the Argentine senior team and there has been for a long time for whatever reason, and their qualification has just papered over the cracks

I dont think he should be a scapegoat buddy, i believe the whole team should be
It is however known that Argentina want Messi to be the one who wins games, the coach has said as much himself, the Argentina plan is to get him the ball and hope he wins games, when this happens off course more often than not he will get the blame/credit for games
This goes back to the AFA being gangsters

Billy86

Lionel Messi

There was very little doubt anyone but Ronaldo would be winning it after his absolutely absurd run in the CL knockouts last season.

Billy86

Lionel Messi

Dick phelan wrote: »

Messi the best right now and the best there's ever been, the idea he has to win a world cup to be the greatest is crazy, the man has single handily taken Argentina to Russia and got to a world cup final loosing out in ET to a much better German side...

Messi didn't do that, Mascherano and their defense did by conceding no goals through the entire knockout phase. Messi had a good tournament but was p*ss poor against the Dutch and the Germans in the semis and the final.

Billy86

Lionel Messi

Iang87 wrote: »

I may stand corrected on this but I think aside from an OG Messi is the only player to score for Argentina in 11 months.

From 15/11/16 - now

It has to be mentioned that in that time Messi scored the great hat trick against Colombia, a single penalty against Chile, and no goals against Uruguay, Venezuela or Peru (he didn't play against Bolivia). Now the Colombia game was an performance was a great one even if their players were a bit hungover, but Messi hadn't exactly being setting the world on fire in that barren patch himself to put it mildly. Hopefully the team as a whole get their sh*t together for the WC though.

Iang87

Neymar

Billy86 wrote: »

It has to be mentioned that in that time Messi scored the great hat trick against Colombia, a single penalty against Chile, and no goals against Uruguay, Venezuela or Peru (he didn't play against Bolivia). Now the Colombia game was an performance was a great one even if their players were a bit hungover, but Messi hadn't exactly being setting the world on fire in that barren patch himself to put it mildly. Hopefully the team as a whole get their sh*t together for the WC though.

In the same period he was for Barcelona though.

I do wonder what they'll be like in the World Cup though. A few weeks for the coach to drill them how he wants to play. You can win a world cup if you peak for 3 games. If they time that right he may they may do it

irishman86

Lionel Messi

Billy86 wrote: »

It has to be mentioned that in that time Messi scored the great hat trick against Colombia, a single penalty against Chile, and no goals against Uruguay, Venezuela or Peru (he didn't play against Bolivia). Now the Colombia game was an performance was a great one even if their players were a bit hungover, but Messi hadn't exactly being setting the world on fire in that barren patch himself to put it mildly. Hopefully the team as a whole get their sh*t together for the WC though.

Ecuador buddy :pac:

Billy86

Lionel Messi

irishman86 wrote: »

Ecuador buddy :pac:

F*** sake I wrote it in a rush, made a mental note to change it, went to double check he didn't play against Bolivia and completely forgot again!

Nalz

Lionel Messi

Ronaldo is

Iang87

Neymar

Nalz wrote: »

Ronaldo is

Well thats that so lads.

Lock the thread

The Floyd p

Neymar

Iang87 wrote: »

You can win a world cup if you peak for 3 games. If they time that right he may they may do it

That's true, and yet people still use it to justify Pele and Maradona.

The Floyd p

The Floyd p wrote: »

That's true, and yet people still use it to justify Pele and Maradona.

Ah no no.

They were pretty outstanding players. That's why people think they were...well...pretty outstanding players.

If you think Pele's career was "he peaked for 3 games", I think we'll just have to disagree.

The Floyd p

Neymar

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah no no.

They were pretty outstanding players. That's why people think they were...well...pretty outstanding players.

If you think Pele's career was "he peaked for 3 games", I think we'll just have to disagree.

No you're right, they were super players and well deserve their reputation. I'll take Messi's consistency for 10+ years over Maradona's "mercurial" genius, though.

The Golden Miller

Neymar

The Floyd p wrote: »

No you're right, they were super players and well deserve their reputation. I'll take Messi's consistency for 10+ years over Maradona's "mercurial" genius, though.

I never get this "consistency" argument. Maradona's career spanned 22 years

Iang87

Neymar

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I never get this "consistency" argument. Maradona's career spanned 22 years

That's called longevity. That could be your problem with the consistency argument

The Talking Bread

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I never get this "consistency" argument. Maradona's career spanned 22 years

Andy Legg played until he was 43

The Golden Miller

Neymar

Maradona was a top player for a long period of that time. Does this really need pointing out?

Iang87

Neymar

His time in Europe worth talking about was 9 years 82-91. Anything pre and post that probably isnt worth talking about no

Not 9 years in europe, apologies.I'm just ignoring he was at Seville post 91

The Golden Miller

Neymar

Iang87 wrote: »

His time in Europe worth talking about was 9 years 82-91. Anything pre and post that probably isnt worth talking about no

Well his time in Argentina is worth talking about. 9+ years at the top is great consistency. I'd understand this "consistency" argument if Messi was being compared to someone like Ronaldinho

Iang87

Neymar

Is his time in Argentina worth talking about in the context of playing top level

The Golden Miller

Neymar

Iang87 wrote: »

Is his time in Argentina worth talking about in the context of playing top level

What exactly is "top level"? Playing with the Harlem Globetrotters every week and crushing the Girona's of this world 7-0? So ye, considering what he achieved in Argentina, while considering that he was on a team with weaker players, playing against teams who on a far more even level and who were alot tougher, I'd give as much credence to that period of Maradona's career. The disparity in quality between Argentina and the top european leagues isn't what it is today either

The Floyd p

Neymar

The Golden Miller wrote: »

What exactly is "top level"? Playing with the Harlem Globetrotters every week and crushing the Girona's of this world 7-0? So ye, considering what he achieved in Argentina, while considering that he was on a team with weaker players, playing against teams who on a far more even level and who were alot tougher, I'd give as much credence to that period of Maradona's career. The disparity in quality between Argentina and the top european leagues isn't what it is today either

Standing out in a team of "Harlem Globetrotters" is an achievement in itself. I'd also wager that scoring nearly a goal a game over 110+ CL games is more impressive than Maradona's achievements in Argentina. The toughness I'll give you, but the standard of player in the league more than counteracts the toughness, making it an easier environment, in my opinion.

Billy86

Lionel Messi

Iang87 wrote: »

Is his time in Argentina worth talking about in the context of playing top level

I would reckon so, the Argentinian and Brazilian leagues were a lot stronger back then if I am correct (1977-1980). Sure Pele spent his entire career in Santos (bar two years in the US at the end). Mario Kempes was the only player in their 1978 WC winning squad not playing in Argentina.

irishman86

Lionel Messi

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well his time in Argentina is worth talking about. 9+ years at the top is great consistency. I'd understand this "consistency" argument if Messi was being compared to someone like Ronaldinho

Buddy didnt you know nothing counts outside of europe :pac:

The Floyd p

Neymar

I just don't know what more people need to see from Messi. Doubles Maradona's goal total. Has over 200 assists. Plays at the highest level for over 10 years and shines brightest. Maradona isn't on the same tier, never won the European Cup, not as good a goalscorer. Messi has been the best goalscorer and best passer in football, Maradona doesn't compare.

sReq | uTeK

Lionel Messi

Iang87 wrote: »

Is his time in Argentina worth talking about in the context of playing top level

Jesus if you think Brazilian and Argentinian leagues were cannon fodder in the 70s and 80s you really have no grasp of footballing history.

I Can tell you something now that the early 80s Argentinian league was a lot more competitive than La Liga has been the last 10 years were Messi and Ronaldo are racking up goals to beat the band.

The Golden Miller

Neymar

irishman86 wrote: »

Buddy didnt you know nothing counts outside of europe :pac:

I do now.

The Floyd p wrote: »

I just don't know what more people need to see from Messi. Doubles Maradona's goal total. Has over 200 assists. Plays at the highest level for over 10 years and shines brightest. Maradona isn't on the same tier, never won the European Cup, not as good a goalscorer. Messi has been the best goalscorer and best passer in football, Maradona doesn't compare.

I'm not disputing the greatness of Messi. I think he's the best in the world and has been for the best part of the last 10 years. But I think these days, people are too quick to call everything "the best ever". The worst criteria you could of picked to award a point to Messi over Maradona was longevity at the top, seeing as Maradona lasted at the top for a long time and in an era far more susceptible to career ending injuries. Splitting hairs really. That metric only holds weight if he was compared to someone who was at the top for a far shorter period of time, like Kaka or Ronaldinho

Iang87

Neymar

Billy86 wrote: »

I would reckon so, the Argentinian and Brazilian leagues were a lot stronger back then if I am correct (1977-1980). Sure Pele spent his entire career in Santos (bar two years in the US at the end). Mario Kempes was the only player in their 1978 WC winning squad not playing in Argentina.

Showing my ignorance on that front to be fair. I dont know enough about south american football from the 70s/80s to be making the comment I made.

I was taking current standards and applying to then. Apologies Mr Billy86

Billy86

Lionel Messi

Ah no you're grand! The shift really to Europe seems to have kicked off during the 80s, in 1986 about 5-6 of their squad was in Europe, and by 1990 it was 12 of the 23 playing in Europe (plus another two in Mexico & Colombia). Europe was undoubtedly the strongest area by the 1990s but the modern 'Champions League/Premiership' era then really sped it up and by the turn of the century South American leagues were a notable step below. It's actually causing a little bit of a crisis of sorts in Brazil lately which is why they have far less talent on average than 10-20 years ago. Argentina have bags of talent still of course, but even then in 2014 only three of their whole squad was based domestically, one of whom onyl ever played 3 games for Argentina, the other being Fernando Gago and a 33 year old Maxi Rodriguez.

764dak

Billy86 wrote: »

Ah no you're grand! The shift really to Europe seems to have kicked off during the 80s, in 1986 about 5-6 of their squad was in Europe, and by 1990 it was 12 of the 23 playing in Europe (plus another two in Mexico & Colombia). Europe was undoubtedly the strongest area by the 1990s but the modern 'Champions League/Premiership' era then really sped it up and by the turn of the century South American leagues were a notable step below. It's actually causing a little bit of a crisis of sorts in Brazil lately which is why they have far less talent on average than 10-20 years ago. Argentina have bags of talent still of course, but even then in 2014 only three of their whole squad was based domestically, one of whom onyl ever played 3 games for Argentina, the other being Fernando Gago and a 33 year old Maxi Rodriguez.

Basanta also played in Mexico. So they had four players outside Europe.

764dak

The Floyd p wrote: »

I just don't know what more people need to see from Messi. Doubles Maradona's goal total. Has over 200 assists. Plays at the highest level for over 10 years and shines brightest. Maradona isn't on the same tier, never won the European Cup, not as good a goalscorer. Messi has been the best goalscorer and best passer in football, Maradona doesn't compare.

Maradona scored the most goals in the 1987-88 Serie A.

Lionel Messi

Ronaldo best in the world
Balon dor 2017
Boom

Rumple Stillson

Neymar

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Ronaldo best in the world
Balon dor 2017
Boom

Poor mans Salah

The Floyd p

Neymar

He does it so regularly, but another 2 goals for Leo Messi, and a ridiculous assist for Alba. I wonder how many of the 39% feel silly for saying a clearly declining Cristiano Ronaldo over the most gifted player they'll ever see? Greatness is never appreciated in the moment, unfortunately.

Rekop dog

Neymar

The Floyd p wrote: »

He does it so regularly, but another 2 goals for Leo Messi, and a ridiculous assist for Alba. I wonder how many of the 39% feel silly for saying a clearly declining Cristiano Ronaldo over the most gifted player they'll ever see? Greatness is never appreciated in the moment, unfortunately.

Well the poll was taken at the start of the season when the "clearly declining" Ronaldo was coming off spearheading his side to back to back Champions league and on a personal level about to (deservedly) receive the Ballon D'or for the 4th time in 5 years.

I've always preferred Messi but your point is ridiculous.

blueser

Disappointed at the lack of shouts for Mangala, to be frank with you. Go get 'em, big fella!

ERG89

blueser wrote:

Disappointed at the lack of shouts for Mangala, to be frank with you. Go get 'em, big fella!

Few players are as dangerous with the ball at their feet.

jacool

ERG89 wrote: »

Few players are as dangerous "to Man City" with the ball at their feet.

fixed your post

Skylinehead

Neymar

jacool wrote: »

fixed your post

:pac:

irishman86

Lionel Messi

The Floyd p wrote: »

He does it so regularly, but another 2 goals for Leo Messi, and a ridiculous assist for Alba. I wonder how many of the 39% feel silly for saying a clearly declining Cristiano Ronaldo over the most gifted player they'll ever see? Greatness is never appreciated in the moment, unfortunately.

Will you be back with a pointless comment when Ronaldo scored 20 goals between now and the end of the season and wins the CL again
What a stupid post

GavRedKing

Neymar

irishman86 wrote: »

Will you be back with a pointless comment when Ronaldo scored 20 goals between now and the end of the season and wins the CL again
What a stupid post

20 goals - Will happen
Winning the CL - Wont happen

irishman86

Lionel Messi

GavRedKing wrote: »

20 goals - Will happen
Winning the CL - Wont happen

Hahaha probably not, ive a feeling about Porto :pac:
I also dont think it will be City who lots have faves

GavRedKing

Neymar

irishman86 wrote: »

Hahaha probably not, ive a feeling about Porto :pac:
I also dont think it will be City who lots have faves

City are the best English sides but I cant see an English side winning it, any of them would need a big lot of luck to get through the competition, same can be said for any team I suppose but I'd be putting Barca as firm favourites for the CL anyway.

Billy86

Lionel Messi

GavRedKing wrote: »

20 goals - Will happen
Winning the CL - Wont happen

I wouldn't be so sure, they're doing poorly domestically but finished with more points in the group stage this year than last, behind Spurs this time instead of Dortmund. And we all know what happened in the CL knockouts last year.

That's not to say they will, it's just to say it's a tad foolish to write off the back to back Champions of the competition when they're in the last 16.

GavRedKing

Neymar

Billy86 wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure, they're doing poorly domestically but finished with more points in the group stage this year than last, behind Spurs this time instead of Dortmund. And we all know what happened in the CL knockouts last year.

That's not to say they will, it's just to say it's a tad foolish to write off the back to back Champions of the competition when they're in the last 16.

I've watched probably a good 75% of the La Liga games, theyre nowhere near the force the were last year, which is stating the obvious, I know.

Ronaldo is in a steady decline and Benzema hasnt been great for 2 years.

I think PSG will do a serious number on them too and it might even be the end of Zidane when they get knocked out, if theyre humiliated by PSG because the league is looking well beyond them too at this stage.