Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

1123heavy

Mebuntu wrote: »

Ah, now we're getting close to what's going on. No prizes for guessing whose needs. Indicative of the attitude that seems to prevail among workers in the transport industry.

Aer Lingus have it, BA have it, Lufthansa have it, Air France have it, Thomas Cook pilots on strike next Saturday, Heathrow workers now planning Christmas strikes, Tube, Rail and Bus workers in the UK, French and other Air Traffic Controllers, Luas and Bus/Irish Rail here - it's neverending. They have this power to close things down and disrupt the lives of millions of people. All out of pure greed. "Please Sir, I'm getting some more whether you like it or not".

I expect that Ryanair crews will be treading the same ugly path now egged on and aided and abetted by all the various "alpas".

As usual, it will be the ordinary worker who has to foot the bill in the end.

I never knew it cost 100,000eu to be a train driver with irish rail or drive the Luas along with all the sacrifices such as having to move countries and dealing with the endless list of uncertainties. Even when you have the job.

What a ridiculous comparison. It highlights to me how little knowledge many outside of the profession have about what being a pilot actually is, how to get there and what it takes. To suggest that requesting to be rewarded appropriately is greed is showing an attitude that is part of the problem here. You really wanna know what greed is? It's expecting to put your life into somebody's hands, flying in a metal tube at 35,000 ft and expecting them to be treated abysmally by their employers.

Next time you're being bounced around on approach into Dublin over the Irish sea on a stormy November night and the aircraft is being kicked about like a football, I hope you realise somebody is actually responsible for your life at that moment and it's their skillset and professionalism (that they didn't get by lying in bed I can tell you) that's gonna get you safely home to your family.

Or are you telling me that person doesn't deserve more than the respect (lack of more like) than what O'Leary has afforded them? Surely your life is worth more than that.

Turnipman

1123heavy wrote: »

Next time you're being bounced around on approach into Dublin over the Irish sea on a stormy November night and the aircraft is being kicked about like a football, I hope you realise somebody is actually responsible for your life at that moment and it's their skillset and professionalism (that they didn't get by lying in bed I can tell you) that's gonna get you safely home to your family.

Might the said "somebody" also be vaguely interested in using their "skillset and professionalism" in order to ensure that he (or she) can get home safely to their own family? (Or do they only use their skills and professionalism when they are flying an aircraft with passengers aboard?)

Peter Flynt

Turnipman wrote: »

Might the said "somebody" also be vaguely interested in using their "skillset and professionalism" in order to ensure that he (or she) can get home safely to their own family? (Or do they only use their skills and professionalism when they are flying an aircraft with passengers aboard?)

Pilots are responsible for the safety of their passengers, not their own safety.

Absurd and stupid logic to come to a conclusion that pilots only keep passengers safe by looking after their own interests first.

Then again nothing surprises me anymore about contributions to this website.

Turnipman

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Pilots are responsible for the safety of their passengers, not their own safety.

Absurd and stupid logic to come to a conclusion that pilots only keep passengers safe by looking after their own interests first.

Then again nothing surprises me anymore about contributions to this website.

Indeed, it was shameful of me to suggest that any selfless, heroic, underpaid, disrespected airline pilot would stoop so low as to even contemplate saving his or her own life in bad weather. I'm a very naughty poster!

All the same, it was rather annoying when the glaring lacuna underlying your impassioned purple prose was exposed, wasn't it?

Peter Flynt

Turnipman wrote: »

Indeed, it was shameful of me to suggest that any selfless, heroic, underpaid, disrespected airline pilot would stoop so low as to even contemplate saving his or her own life in bad weather. I'm a very naughty poster!

All the same, it was rather annoying when the glaring lacuna underlying your impassioned purple prose was exposed, wasn't it?

Not annoying.

You just reveal the sort of person you are with a comment like that.

That you would hold such cynicism is more to be pitied than anything else.

Turnipman

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Not annoying.

You just reveal the sort of person you are with a comment like that.

You mean I unwittingly revealed that that I'm logical and can cut through hogwash with a scalpel? Fair enough so, guilty as charged!

But I remain puzzled as to how, in your somewhat confused mind, it can be seen as cynical of someone to suggest that an airline pilot might want to save his or her own life when flying an aircraft in very bad weather.

I'm heading to Lisbon on Saturday (with Ryanair!) and I really hope that my pilot doesn't have a death wish.

Wanderer78

Turnipman wrote: »

I'm heading to Lisbon on Saturday (with Ryanair!) and I really hope that my pilot doesn't have a death wish.

hope so to, unfortunately this has happened before. enjoy the break

Peter Flynt

Turnipman wrote: »

Very happy to defer to your vastly superior expertise on the latter topic.

Never claimed to be an expert.

I don't go around typing stupid stuff like "the passengers are only safe as the pilots are looking after themselves"

If you subscribe to that logic, and it's clear you do, then wouldn't it be in the interests of every passenger that the two pilots are treated well by their employer.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Then again there's a certain type of scrote in this country who thinks that if he's paying a fiver more then it's all for someone else's "greed".

Tony EH

1123heavy wrote: »

He still doesn't get the message though, "we'll offer them 12,000 but if they have more than 4 sick days they don't get it".

That's simply astonishing.

If a pilot has a chest infection, I don't want him at the controls of a plane I'm flying in, and even something as simple as that can knock you for 4 days easily.

It's a simple lack of respect for employees that permiates thorugh a lot of businesses right now. It's an attitude that people are just taking the piss and it's wrong on a huge number of levels. My wife has had a chest infection since Friday. I wouldn't even let her cycle a bike. Plus, it's the second one she's had since the beginning of the year.

4 sick days would be an absolute minimum I would expect any employee to experience during a standard working year.

Ya know, with all the crap that goes through Ryanair, I'm truly surprised that there hasn't been a major accident yet. Truly surprised.

It's a testiment to the ladies and gents that actually fly those metal tubes, I suppose.

duskyjoe

Good article

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/20/ryanair-treat-pilots-better-crisis-long-haul

L1011

Posting is falling below the quality expected here with a lot of sniping and borderline personal attacks - improvements will be required or the cards come out

Maybe my threshold of irritability is lower this evening, having just caught up on some of the garbage that was posted earlier, the cards have come out, and some off topic posts have been deleted (Steve).

billy few mates

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Can never understand the hatred for Ryanair. They're a great airline. This "scandal" won't deter me from flying with them again in the slightest.

Me neither, I'm a frequent flyer and use the quite regularly, I'd have no problem flying with them again, just not in the near future until they're well out of this current fiasco.
I'll have to assume that due to the current crewing crisis they won't be adequately resourced to guarantee service recovery if another one of their flights goes tech somewhere or encounters a delay beyond their control.
Just because your flight hasn't been cancelled doesn't mean it won't be cancelled but at very short notice. Ryanair seems to be susceptible to these sort of issues and as Devnull points out managing these issues the way they do is probably part of the reason they're in the situation they now find themselves. This is probably because of the unique type of schedule they operate (short turnarounds, multi sector days, high utilisation etc).
I'll definitely use them again but at the moment I feel theres just too big a risk of having my travel plans wrecked until this crisis is well and truly behind them.

Thankfully we still have choices, can you imagine if the Ryanair take over of Aer Lingus had been allowed to go through...?
We'd all be stranded on this rain soaked rock... :eek:

1123heavy

Tony EH wrote: »

That's simply astonishing.

If a pilot has a chest infection, I don't want him at the controls of a plane I'm flying in, and even something as simple as that can knock you for 4 days easily.

It's a simple lack of respect for employees that permiates thorugh a lot of businesses right now. It's an attitude that people are just taking the piss and it's wrong on a huge number of levels. My wife has had a chest infection since Friday. I wouldn't even let her cycle a bike. Plus, it's the second one she's had since the beginning of the year.

4 sick days would be an absolute minimum I would expect any employee to experience during a standard working year.

This is it. What many people don't realise is that by him doing that (it's not the first time), what he's actually doing has a very detrimental effect on safety.

Pilot needs to pay mortgage and feed family.

Pilot falls ill.

Said pilot knows he can't afford to lose out on payments he'll lose if he takes too many sick days (4 in the current 12000 offering).

Does that pilot then say "oh well we'll have to miss out"? In many cases, absolutely not. They force themselves to go in despite not being 100%. And when you have o'leary constantly saying his "pilots are lazy", "they only work 18 hrs a week", you begin to stop caring for your own welfare at a particular point. This is especially so for the younger guys who need the job to build their hours and get firmly on the ladder.

He even had the cheek to tell that sky reporter "we'd to cancel our flights cos we're giving our pilots lots and lots of holidays over the next 6 weeks". Such a severe distortion of reality given that the truth as to what happened is he's worked them so hard since April that they're very close to reaching their limit for en entire year (they did that in just 7 months) and he's having to chop them now until the winter season (when he won't need most of them anyway due to less flights). Such a severe distortion of reality it is sickening.

Wanderer78

duskyjoe wrote: »

Good article

a lot of respect to that pilot, he may be causing a lot problems for himself for future employment opportunities by effectively becoming a whistleblower. thats an absolutely disgraceful way to treat your staff, those that actually create the success of a business, those that actually create the profits. i wish the pilots and staff of ryanair the very best of luck, as they have an uphill battle here, the odds are not in your favour but hopefully something good may come of all of this.

Bob24

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Strike when O'Leary needs them most.

The guy who boasted with "sack 'em all" with regard to Luas drivers would then be left humiliated and exposed as he'd be left with no choice.

Edit:

Ryanair pilots at almost 20 bases across Europe now demand permanent contracts under local laws and pay that’s benchmarked with that at rival carriers.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanair-pilots-at-almost-20-bases-across-europe-now-demand-permanent-contracts-under-local-laws-36152735.html

Yes for them it’s now or never.

Also the fact that pilots are starting to send those demands kind of negates the storytelling around the main cause of cancallations being a holiday calendar change. It is now getting clear there are many disgruntled employees amongst which are good number have left or are threatening to leave.

flanzer

The heat is now on MOL. Pilots at 33 bases now demanding better conditions

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/pilots-at-33-ryanair-bases-have-now-demanded-improved-conditions-36154681.html

This could spiral out of control unless he eats humble pie

__..__

I don't believe it.
There will actually be strikes at Ryanair.

devnull

Thing is are they being egged on by Trade Union groups such as the IALPA and the ECA because said groups really want to help them and represent them, or are they being egged on to help those groups members in other airlines?

L1011

If the outcome of this is that Ryanair's pilots unionise after 30 years of being a non-union airline, O'Leary's reputation will be rather damaged. May stop all the calls to have him run bits of the state to stop though.

__..__

L1011 wrote: »

If the outcome of this is that Ryanair's pilots unionise after 30 years of being a non-union airline, O'Leary's reputation will be rather damaged. May stop all the calls to have him run bits of the state to stop though.

I think those calls are well and truly finished now.

L1011

__..__ wrote: »

I think those calls are well and truly finished now.

There were some on this very thread since the issue started!

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

If the outcome of this is that Ryanair's pilots unionise after 30 years of being a non-union airline, O'Leary's reputation will be rather damaged. May stop all the calls to have him run bits of the state to stop though.

Thing is though, O'Leary knows that if he does agree to their demands he is going to have to pay a lot more in pilot salaries across the board which will mean an increase in Ryanair's costs and cost is what the whole brand is marketed on and if they have to increase fares too much it will effect their position in the market.

Also that's a reason that the staff ought to be careful how much they push for because if they push for too much they could end up effecting their job security, although I suspect many think that even if that does happen that they can simply go somewhere else as they will always be in demand so they don't care about the company.

The problem is that because of the rostering mess up, this gives the pilots a position of power as they know the company is short and now their action will have a bigger impact on the company, the unions will be egging them on for their own reasons as well determined to force a strike I would suspect, you always need to be suspicious of reasons why employees from competitors may encourage you to strike.

grogi

devnull wrote: »

Also that's a reason that the staff ought to be careful how much they push for because if they push for too much they could end up effecting their job security /.../

Profit figures for Ryanair are public. The number of 'employees' is known as well.

Take ~75% of profit and spread it across all staff members. That's how much they can really push for.
It would leave the share holders with still huge profits and leaves the airline a big cash cushion.

737max

How many shares do you happen to own in Ryanair?

grogi

737max wrote: »

How many shares do you happen to own in Ryanair?

Myself? None. I am just realistic.

devnull

737max wrote: »

How many shares do you happen to own in Ryanair?

Note at all - just looking at it from a business point of view.

NH2013

devnull wrote: »

Thing is though, O'Leary knows that if he does agree to their demands he is going to have to pay a lot more in pilot salaries across the board which will mean an increase in Ryanair's costs and cost is what the whole brand is marketed on and if they have to increase fares too much it will effect their position in the market.

Only it won't cause an increase in ticket price, airlines sell all tickets at the highest price they can get for them, other than sales they don't sell a ticket at a lower price if people are willing to pay more for them.

So the increase in cost won't add a price onto the ticket as people are already paying as much as Ryanair can get out of them, the extra cost will simply reduce the profit Ryanair make, and with €1bn+ profit made last year there's plenty of scope to try and save the ship and offer reasonable competitive working conditions that will retain pilots in Ryanair.

California Dreamer

Sound byte from this mornings presser. 125 pilots to be hired in next 2 weeks. Are those the ones that were already in the upcoming panel or DE and type rated ready to go?

Locker10a

California Dreamer wrote: »

Sound byte from this mornings presser. 125 pilots to be hired in next 2 weeks. Are those the ones that were already in the upcoming panel or DE and type rated ready to go?

How could you even sort out security passes and background checks in two weeks let alone everything else?

billie1b

Locker10a wrote: »

How could you even sort out security passes and background checks in two weeks let alone everything else?

Pilots don’t need airport ID’s, once they have their company ID and license and roster they can pass through security.