Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

devnull

Locker10a wrote: »

California Dreamer wrote: »

Sound byte from this mornings presser. 125 pilots to be hired in next 2 weeks. Are those the ones that were already in the upcoming panel or DE and type rated ready to go?

How could you even sort out security passes and background checks in two weeks let alone everything else?

They are pilots already recruited and starting earlier I believe

jimmycrackcorm

L1011 wrote:

If the outcome of this is that Ryanair's pilots unionise after 30 years of being a non-union airline, O'Leary's reputation will be rather damaged. May stop all the calls to have him run bits of the state to stop though.

The outcome might be that MOL will close a lot of the bases complaining during the winter schedule and redeploy compliant staff.

__..__ wrote:

I think those calls are well and truly finished now.

Hardly.

737max

The unions in other airlines don't hire pilots. The managers hire pilots. They will not hire former Ryanair pilots where they have reason to suspect they were militant while working for their last employer.
The pilots will need to be very careful how they proceed and be careful as to what advice they take from Union Activists who don't work for Ryanair with nothing to lose but have an agenda of their own.

1123heavy

devnull wrote: »

Also that's a reason that the staff ought to be careful how much they push for because if they push for too much they could end up effecting their job security, although I suspect many think that even if that does happen that they can simply go somewhere else as they will always be in demand so they don't care about the company.

With an operating profit of 1 billion euro, I doubt very much that any company would be put into jeopardy by just paying their pilots a bit more and improving their roster situation. They are very much unsung heroes, they hit the limits every month this summer and nobody gave a damn until there weren't enough of them.

Also, some of what their pilots are demanding doesn't cost anything. Does making your employees feel valued human beings cost anything? If they're sick, rather than berating them for being so and making them aware that if they're sick for too long it's gonna hit their pocket, perhaps just show a bit of sympathy and understanding? That costs nothing.

I tell ya one thing, I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that AGM of theirs today.

billy few mates

I feel a massive seat sale coming on...

737max

1123heavy wrote: »

With an operating profit of 1 billion euro, I doubt very much that any company would be put into jeopardy by just paying their pilots a bit more and improving their roster situation. They are very much unsung heroes, they hit the limits every month this summer and nobody gave a damn until there weren't enough of them.

Also, some of what their pilots are demanding doesn't cost anything. Does making your employees feel valued human beings cost anything? If they're sick, rather than berating them for being so and making them aware that if they're sick for too long it's gonna hit their pocket, perhaps just show a bit of sympathy and understanding? That costs nothing.

I tell ya one thing, I'd love to be a fly on the wall in that AGM of theirs today.

Why be a fly on the wall. A ryanair share costs 17 euro and then they couldn't prevent you from attending even if they wanted to.

NH2013

California Dreamer wrote: »

Sound byte from this mornings presser. 125 pilots to be hired in next 2 weeks. Are those the ones that were already in the upcoming panel or DE and type rated ready to go?

Even type rated DECs still need to conduct an operator conversion course to be instructed in the Ryanair SOPs, a Ryanair SEP course, dangerous goods course, ops ground school, first aid, simulator sessions in order to prepare for license revalidation etc, which all has a lead in time of best case about 5-6 weeks depending on availability of trainers.

If the rumours of large swathes of the training department leaving in droves has even some truth to it, then it could indeed take a lot longer. It's certainly not an instant fix to the current predicament they've found themselves in.

Bob24

devnull wrote: »

Also that's a reason that the staff ought to be careful how much they push for because if they push for too much they could end up effecting their job security, although I suspect many think that even if that does happen that they can simply go somewhere else as they will always be in demand so they don't care about the company.

The thing is Ryanair has built an employer-employee relashionship with pilots which is pretty loose as it wanted that for its own flexibility and cost optimisation needs.

It means as long as they were holding the strong cards and the job market for pilots was making positions at Ryanair still attractive they could have both the flexibility and security in terms of staffing.

But with the type of relashionship it is clear that those pilots which have been essentially treated as external service providers won’t feel any reason to protect the company’s interest of they have other options available to them. By building this type of lose relashionship Ryanair obviously knew it meant less staff loyalty than other airlines, and they didn’t mind as they didn’t forecast the job market would turn.

So indeed the only arguments in the balance here are how much damage can pilot do to the company if they strike and how likely are they to have offers elsewhere. Since both entities (company and pilots) are pretty loosely connected it is just about which one has the strongest hand in the short term and both parties will only act in their own selfish interest depending on how strong they feel their position is.

fr336

Don't hate the player (O'Leary), hate the game (the customers who suddenly have a conscience when it effects them). And before someone says "Well EasyJet can do it", they are never anywhere near as cheap as FR.

grogi

fr336 wrote: »

Don't hate the player (O'Leary), hate the game (the customers who suddenly have a conscience when it effects them). And before someone says "Well EasyJet can do it", they are never anywhere near as cheap as FR.

FR is making heaps of money - so they can either lower the prices further or improve working conditions.

goingnowhere

Two Ryanair's in the circuit in Shannon on training today so they are certainly training. One doing right hand the other left hand circuits

O'Leary has a big problem, he has a stack of new planes coming for which he has to pay for, if they ain't flying they ain't earning and at 40-50 million a hull it quickly stacks up

Just to frustrate maters Air Berlin and Alitalia are about to go to the wall and Ryanair cannot come rolling in to save the day which must really piss O'Leary off

L1011

goingnowhere wrote: »

Just to frustrate maters Air Berlin and Alitalia are about to go to the wall and Ryanair cannot come rolling in to save the day which must really piss O'Leary off

Hadn't even thought of that. Easy/Norwegian/Wizz doing the normally Ryanair "€100 rescue flights" would probably drive him mad

WoollyRedHat

O'Leary has made an omnishambles at the AGM by painting a picture that pilot's by and large have it easy, warning that this dispute could continue and affect flights until November and threatening as per their contract he can force them to defer holidays until January if they do not co-operate as you were. Don't think that's going to fly.

Tenger

California Dreamer wrote: »

Sound byte from this mornings presser. 125 pilots to be hired in next 2 weeks. Are those the ones that were already in the upcoming panel or DE and type rated ready to go?

A problem for FR over the last year is that some of their more senior Line Training Captains have left. This leaves them with less capacity to complete line training on new recruits, thus slowing their F/O replenishment process.

LeChienMefiant

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

O'Leary has made an omnishambles at the AGM by painting a picture that pilot's by and large have it easy, warning that this dispute could continue and affect flights until November and threatening as per their contract he can force them to defer holidays until January if they do not co-operate as you were. Don't think that's going to fly.

One of you will be correct, time will tell.

A Dub in Glasgo

fr336 wrote: »

Don't hate the player (O'Leary), hate the game (the customers who suddenly have a conscience when it effects them). And before someone says "Well EasyJet can do it", they are never anywhere near as cheap as FR.

Ryanair are making tons of money so not everyone is getting the cheap flights. Some of the Ryanair flights are very expensive and in some cases more expensive than other carriers

billy few mates

737max wrote: »

Why be a fly on the wall. A ryanair share costs 17 euro and then they couldn't prevent you from attending even if they wanted to.

Plus an additional €12 for a randomly allocated seat up the front...

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

Hadn't even thought of that. Easy/Norwegian/Wizz doing the normally Ryanair "€100 rescue flights" would probably drive him mad

If someone has a Wizz Air Flight during service or weather disruption then they are going to be in for a very rude awakening that is all I can say if they are uswed to an on time experience with Ryanair.

They have no standby crews at all in Western Europe and very limited ones in the East as well. If a flight gets delayed by hours on it's daily duties that is just tough and the delays mount up and if they run out of hours to run the last couple of flights of the day they are cancelled and that is that for the passengers who probably waited for hours at the airport.

But don't worry, this kind of issue will probably boost the sales of their delay warranty product so they're essentially not spending much money on service recovery which makes their service more prone to delays, and they're using this proneness to sell a product that will compensate you if they are late, essentially it's a product designed to cash in on their own unreliablity, hence why it's advertised on board if your flight is late....

devnull

AGM Resolution Results:
https://otp.tools.investis.com/clients/uk/ryanair/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=901&newsid=927153

No big revolt there, a clear vote of confidence in MOL

Mebuntu

Mebuntu wrote: »

All out of pure greed.

What's wrong with 'pure greed'?

The likes of MOL and his footsoldiers have been telling us for years that self-interest is the only way to go. His whole schtick is "I don't owe anybody anything, you get nothing for nothing, and if you don't like it don't fly with me" etc

But now there's a problem when pilots act in their own interest. This is an outrageous act of 'pure greed' that must be condemned! Fancy these people wanting a decent wage and decent conditions when the wealth they create could be lining the pockets of Ryanair shareholders. Pure greed I tells ya!

The hypocrisy behind some of these comments is absolutely mind-boggling.

john boye

devnull wrote: »

L1011 wrote: »

Hadn't even thought of that. Easy/Norwegian/Wizz doing the normally Ryanair "€100 rescue flights" would probably drive him mad

If someone has a Wizz Air Flight during service or weather disruption then they are going to be in for a very rude awakening that is all I can say if they are uswed to an on time experience with Ryanair.

They have no standby crews at all in Western Europe and very limited ones in the East as well. If a flight gets delayed by hours on it's daily duties that is just tough and the delays mount up and if they run out of hours to run the last couple of flights of the day they are cancelled and that is that for the passengers who probably waited for hours at the airport.

But don't worry, this kind of issue will probably boost the sales of their delay warranty product so they're essentially not spending much money on service recovery which makes their service more prone to delays, and they're using this proneness to sell a product that will compensate you if they are late, essentially it's a product designed to cash in on their own unreliablity, hence why it's advertised on board if your flight is late....

Wow. And to think I stopped posting in here because I thought it was the anti-FR brigade who were getting absurdly catty

Pat Dunne

I am a fan of the Ryanair model of flying and the low fares it brings. For far too long I had to endure paying the ridiculous fares that EI and BA demanded of their passengers, especially on the DUB-LHR route in the 1980's.
However, after hearing the following from Michael O'Leary, I firmly believe that he has now "passed his sell by date"

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/we-have-goodies-to-discuss-with-pilots-but-if-pilots-misbehave-thats-the-end-of-discussion-ryanairs-michael-oleary-36154681.html
"Mr O'Leary also said that if there was a "blu flu" amongst the pilots, "the ERC wouldn't get a meeting for 16 months".
"You can kiss goodbye to any increase pay or base adjustments," he said.

Asked whether this was a threat to pilots, Michael O'Leary responded: "Absolutely not. Perish the thought. We would never threaten our pilots".

"We have some goodies to discuss with pilots, but if pilots misbehave, that would be the end of the discussion of the goodies. I don't think that could be construed as a threat."

This strikes me as an individual who is not treating his employees as equal adult human beings, but rather like naughty little children, who will be punished by a vengeful parent if they don't acceed to his demands/wishes.

Micheal to my mind this is akin to your very own "Gerald Ratner moment" https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/aug/22/gerald-ratner-jewellery-total-crap-1992-archive

LeChienMefiant

It's hardly news that Michael O'Leary isn't a fan of collective bargaining.

devnull

Pat Dunne wrote: »

Micheal to my mind this is akin to your very own "Gerald Ratner moment" https://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/aug/22/gerald-ratner-jewellery-total-crap-1992-archive

About the only thing in common wih Ratner and O'Leary is both men wiped about £500m off their companies share value following speeches in relation to their company which on paper sounds like it's a lot and enough money to bring down both businesses.

Thing is that 500m was nearly the entire value of his Jewellery business whereas it is a tiny stake or a business that is worth approx £18bn like Ryanair so it's in no way comparable, but lets not let facts get in the way of a good story and a round of doom-mongering. It never stopped the Daily Mail after all.

markpb

grogi wrote: »

Take ~75% of profit and spread it across all staff members. That's how much they can really push for. It would leave the share holders with still huge profits and leaves the airline a big cash cushion.

grogi wrote: »

Myself? None. I am just realistic.

I don't think you're being realistic at all. If the company took 75% of their profit and used it to offer payrises to their staff, that's a huge increase in ongoing costs. What happens next year if passenger numbers fall, per-seat revenue falls, the price of oil spikes over the next three years or Easyjet decide to throw money at competing with Ryanair? Will the staff accept the same %age pay cut to make sure the company doesn't go under? Of course not.

And even if believe that some sort of co-operative arrangement could be reached, do you think the shareholders who have invested money in Ryanair would be happy with 75% of their gains being taken from them. Would you accept a reduction in your pension because the Ryanair staff are paid better?

A319er

I believe FR would be well rid of this arrogant man
At least he has admitted pilot shortage is the issue , took him long enough to be be honest , there again MOL and the truth are infrequent bedfellows as he has proved in court before a judge !

Pity such a good airline has to have this man at the helm,

Come on Molly grow a pair and be decent to your staff

markpb

A319er wrote: »

Pity such a good airline has to have this man at the helm,

What a deluded idea. If MoL had been parachuted in recenty, you could say that the success of the company has nothing to do with him but that simply isn't the case. If you think Ryanair would have been better without him, why aren't all the other airlines as successful?

billy few mates

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/latest-michael-olearys-18-hour-figure-does-not-seem-to-have-any-basis-in-reality-says-union-806756.html

Why does he keep doing this?

devnull

billy few mates wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/latest-michael-olearys-18-hour-figure-does-not-seem-to-have-any-basis-in-reality-says-union-806756.html

Why does he keep doing this?

Bear in mind that uniosn have a vested interest with their statements just as MOL has a vested interest with his, the truth, is normally somewhere in the middle.

The unions will always argue they are working too hard, the airlines will argue they are not working enough, fortunately there is a middleman called a regulator to decide on these things.

It's obvious why people in unions representing staff in other airlines would like to make all sorts of allegations about Ryanair.

jimmycrackcorm

billy few mates wrote:

Why does he keep doing this?

Doing what. I read that and there was no counter argument to the 18 hours.

Just a quote about regulations such as the weekly 60 hours rule.

Where's the actual fatigue?