Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

Wanderer78

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Ryanair is a PLC. Owned by shareholders. Worth remembering.

it is indeed but id have to agree to a point with a lot of the criticism of these systems, in that, they truly only benefit the minority in society. i do believe the idea of 'trickle down' is flawed, and basically not true, that wealth is indeed 'trickling up' by complex means, which includes the operations of such organisations, institutions and corporations etc.

grogi

Wanderer78 wrote: »

it is indeed but id have to agree to a point with a lot of the criticism of these systems, in that, they truly only benefit the minority in society. i do believe the idea of 'trickle down' is flawed, and basically not true, that wealth is indeed 'trickling up' by complex means, which includes the operations of such organisations, institutions and corporations etc.

It simply does not trickle down on its own. It hasn't since 1970s...



Upto 1974, the growing economy benefited all - lowest and highest earners equally. But today, the lowest 20% of earners have the same level of income as they did in 1974, while the 5% benefited much much much more...

People have to understand that it is not 'equal salary for everyone' that we need. That does not work either.

Wanderer78

grogi wrote: »

It simply does not trickle down on its own. It hasn't since 1970s...

you d have to wonder if wealth is trickling down at all? ive been watching steve keen stuff all morning;)

Henry Ford III

Well this has certainly gone way off topic I'd suggest.

Wanderer78

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Well this has certainly gone way off topic I'd suggest.

i will agree to a point it has but i do beleive what has been discussed is actually the root causes of the current situation, naturally im gonna say that though

Henry Ford III

The shareholders seem to have done pretty well out of it anyhow.

Wanderer78

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The shareholders seem to have done pretty well out of it anyhow.

generally do, another fault of the system

1123heavy

Can we get back to talking about pilots and the current ryanair saga? My knowledge doesn't expand much further afield than flying!

Mebuntu

1123heavy wrote: »

Can we get back to talking about pilots and the current ryanair saga?

OK, I'll bite. I was asked this question this morning.

Why did 4,200 pilots apply to and agree to fly for such an allegedly pilot-unfriendly airline like Ryanair with all those terrible pay rates and T&C's? Why didn't they apply instead to fly for those wonderful airlines who allegedly treat their pilots much better?

vicwatson

markpb wrote: »

You know when someone counts pilots to three decimal places, things are getting serious! **** just got real, yo!

Ok grammer nazi :D

Brennus335

vicwatson wrote: »

Ok grammer nazi :D

*grammar...

;-)

1123heavy

Mebuntu wrote: »

OK, I'll bite. I was asked this question this morning.

Why did 4,200 pilots apply to and agree to fly for such an allegedly pilot-unfriendly airline like Ryanair with all those terrible pay rates and T&C's? Why didn't they apply instead to fly for those wonderful airlines who allegedly treat their pilots much better?

You would not have had 4200 qualified and experienced pilots applying to ryanair, they would have barely made up a couple hundred of that 4200, if even. You see this is a classic oleary twisting of the facts and reality to play to the press.

What you would have had was fresh out of school, 150hr guys with a new license desperate to work anywhere. The level of offers for these guys is pretty much non existant. They will fly anything, if they're getting paid that can actually even be taken as a bonus. Ryanair are a company which guys can go to, fly a big enough aircraft and build hours on an extensive network. It is deemed a great thing if these guys can get it. These guys usually get to 1500/2000 hours and then jump ship to somewhere offering better conditions. Personally I know of no one who went there for the long term, it has and always was just a stepping stone for most. They gave you nothing so it's hard to feel loyal to stay. There are always people wanting to be pilots, there are always flight schools pumping out brand new inexperienced pilots ... this line of supply of people after their first gig is plentiful at every airline.

The trouble is Ryanair are not short of the guys mentioned above, they're falling over themselves to get in. What Ryanair are short of are what the guys above turned into after reaching 1500hrs roughly, few stayed. In recent times it appears those leaving spiked, more than what it was in years gone by.

Ryanair are short of captains and experienced first officers. You can only have so many inexperienced cadet pilots loaded onto a training department at any one time. It appears to have been a cycle whereby the trainers and experienced guys have been leaving, and even getting the cadets in has been difficult. Not difficult cos they're not applying, difficult because there are increasingly limited resources to oversee their development once in with all the guys to oversee it leaving. That cycle seems to have gotten worse and worse.

Why are the captains leaving? Well some airlines in china are paying $250,000 to captains who will go there and fly. Some even offering around that cash and on a commuting contract, month on month off or whatever. Another place many left to down the years is the Gulf, hundreds if not thousands of ex ryanair guys headed that way. Granted, they're not all happy there, but at least they get the cash to put up with the crap.

Why would you stay and be a slave to oleary when the market has changed?Airlines are actually respecting pilots now.

When the market was in oleary's favour it was just accepted, now the tables have turned so he'd wanna be prepared for his own sake.

Blut2

Mebuntu wrote: »

OK, I'll bite. I was asked this question this morning.

Why did 4,200 pilots apply to and agree to fly for such an allegedly pilot-unfriendly airline like Ryanair with all those terrible pay rates and T&C's? Why didn't they apply instead to fly for those wonderful airlines who allegedly treat their pilots much better?

Why do people work at Dunnes, with their zero-hour contracts, instead of Marks&Spencers? Because they often have to take what they can get, when there is an oversupply of labour but not enough jobs. Thats the case with Ryanair: they've been known to be comparatively terrible to work for for quite some time, but pilots with no other options (usually younger/inexperienced ones) have gone to work for them to build up some experience before moving elsewhere.

The problem with that model is it relies on there being an oversupply of pilots available, with some who're willing to work for below-market conditions. As we're seeing now, with the aviation market worldwide doing well, this won't always be the case. Now that there's a distinct shortage of pilots Ryanair are really starting to struggle to attract and retain staff, because of the bad working conditions they offer.

plodder

Mebuntu wrote: »

OK, I'll bite. I was asked this question this morning.

Why did 4,200 pilots apply to and agree to fly for such an allegedly pilot-unfriendly airline like Ryanair with all those terrible pay rates and T&C's? Why didn't they apply instead to fly for those wonderful airlines who allegedly treat their pilots much better?

I suspect they are a good company to work for, when you are newly qualified/junior. I heard they promote quite quickly - not sure how true that is. But, maybe once you reach captain stage, you can afford to be more choosy. Aside from that, there are very few airlines who were taking on flight crew to the same extent. Given that Ryanair has been eating the legacy carriers lunch for the last decade, opportunities at those companies can't have been too numerous

devnull

Seat sale announced, 1 million tickets at €9.99 each.

The Rape of Lucretia

devnull wrote: »

Seat sale announced, 1 million tickets at €9.99 each.

Clearly trying to drum up sales. Too many planes and crews on the books with not enough passangers. Half full planes etc. Pricing their tickets too high in recent years. O'Leary and his managers have made a mess and are trying to clear it up. Pilots are expensive assets, and need to be kept in the air earning revenue for Ryanair. Must just have too many of them sitting around twiddling their thumbs because marketing cant attract enough passengers for them all.

john boye

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

devnull wrote: »

Seat sale announced, 1 million tickets at €9.99 each.

Clearly trying to drum up sales. Too many planes and crews on the books with not enough passangers. Half full planes etc. Pricing their tickets too high in recent years. O'Leary and his managers have made a mess and are trying to clear it up. Pilots are expensive assets, and need to be kept in the air earning revenue for Ryanair. Must just have too many of them sitting around twiddling their thumbs because marketing cant attract enough passengers for them all.

Their most recent average load factor was something like 97%. They have a lot of problems but I don't think half-full planes is one of them.

john boye

devnull wrote: »

Seat sale announced, 1 million tickets at €9.99 each.

And for €19.99 you get to fly the thing yourself!

jimmycrackcorm

Wanderer78 wrote:

does the majority in society benefit for this 'cash mountain'?

Yes. The millions of passengers every year who couldn't have afforded the 600 punts fares that Al used to charge for Dublin to London. The easier, cheaper, opportunities to be able to travel for work or holidays benefit all of society. And it's all only possible via this capitalist profitable system that has enabled Ryanair to grow through its ability to gain such profits.

The Rape of Lucretia

Wanderer78 wrote: »

it is indeed but id have to agree to a point with a lot of the criticism of these systems, in that, they truly only benefit the minority in society. i do believe the idea of 'trickle down' is flawed, and basically not true, that wealth is indeed 'trickling up' by complex means, which includes the operations of such organisations, institutions and corporations etc.

Pilots, even Ryanair ones, who had career choices, the resources to invest in a coveted, interesting and, by any measure, financially rewarding, job choice, are hardly a great case to pick to fight a class war !

grogi

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Pilots, even Ryanair ones, who had career choices, the resources to invest in a coveted, interesting and, by any measure, financially rewarding, job choice, are hardly a great case to pick to fight a class war !

Very true... But it also shows that the problem exists and is even more severe among those less qualified.

The Rape of Lucretia

grogi wrote: »

Very true... But it also shows that the problem exists and is even more severe among those less qualified.

Yes. This for example, if taken at face value, is indeed obscene :

"Ryanair has told cabin crew staff based at England’s East Midlands airport that due to a winter reduction in aircraft, all Customer Service Supervisors must take a six week block of unpaid leave.
They can avoid this by accepting six weeks secondment to bases with spare capacity in Eindhoven, Cologne and Berlin.
However the staff must pay for their own hotels and meals during that period.
If they reject this offer, they will not be paid for six weeks, and will not be entitled to statutory payments due to turning down alternative work."

L1011

They must be cancelling or combining flights well in to the winter schedule at this stage if that is happening

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

They must be cancelling or combining flights well in to the winter schedule at this stage if that is happening

Base reconfigurations is part of it I heard - some of them will gain crews others will lose in the winter.

Lustrum

Has there been any talk amongst the pilot body of what concessions they might have to make to improve the working conditions? (I hope we have at least 1 Ryanair pilot who is contributing here who might have an idea)

To outsiders, the 5/4 roster is one of the best in the business, and although they only get paid when they fly, they tend to fly a lot it seems so the renumeration is quite good. And I've heard all sorts about what tax can be claimed back for things that are work-related expenses.

But in order to make gains elsewhere, presumably there will have to be concessions made by the pilot body, because well that seems to be the way the world works. So what are they willing to give up?

billy few mates

Lustrum wrote: »

Has there been any talk amongst the pilot body of what concessions they might have to make to improve the working conditions? (I hope we have at least 1 Ryanair pilot who is contributing here who might have an idea)

To outsiders, the 5/4 roster is one of the best in the business, and although they only get paid when they fly, they tend to fly a lot it seems so the renumeration is quite good. And I've heard all sorts about what tax can be claimed back for things that are work-related expenses.

But in order to make gains elsewhere, presumably there will have to be concessions made by the pilot body, because well that seems to be the way the world works. So what are they willing to give up?

Eighteen hours a week apparently...;)

Dardania

To play devils advocate (basically present the MOL point of view) - if the pilots being self employed and their associated zero hour contracts were such a safety problem, surely we should have seen more safety incidents occurring since Ryanair have been operating? Is there a proper causal link evident between non-staff contracts and less than acceptable safety?

Back in the real world, I reckon Ryanair should in fact offer proper staff contracts to all of their staff - I was faced a similar situation in my profession (engineering) in the past, and felt that being staff, with all the protections, was the right way to go. I did have to accept that as a staff employee rather than a contractor meant not as much money - I wonder do the pilots realise that if Ryanair were to offer them their current jobs as staff members, their after tax salary would probably drop significantly.
Would be a great way to flush out of the pilots are really after staff contracts, or just looking for more money when Ryanair are in a bind.

billy few mates

I'm no expert but the way I see it Ryanair have little option other than to come to some sort of an agreement with the pilots even if it costs them money to do this. They need to solve the problem of pilot turnover for once and for all rather than relying on the revolving door of constantly having to replace people who leave.
Without that sort of stability this fiasco could be an annual event, and even if it weren't to happen again this current fiasco will always be at the back of people's minds and the period between the summer and winter seasons will always be viewed as a risky time to book a Ryanair flight.
Ryanair estimate this debacle will cost them in the region of twenty to thirty million euro, how much goodwill would that have bought? How much would it actually cost them to give in to a few of the pilots' demands?
This is one problem that could be solved by throwing a little money at it.

Mebuntu

billy few mates wrote: »

This is one problem that could be solved by throwing a little money at it.

They've already turned down big money (22 Grand):).

L1011

Mebuntu wrote: »

They've already turned down big money (22 Grand):).

With huge caveats attached.