Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

notharrypotter

L1011 wrote: »

With huge caveats attached.

I have to agree.
Headline figures are often bandied about by people who far too often do not appreciate what is actually been sought.

Like most things in life the devil is in the detail.

Bazzy

Zero hour / no amount of guaranteed work contracts are a reality of post celtic tiger Ireland in more industries than aviation, i've had a lot of experience in other industries and its the norm just not as well known as Ryanair

To be fair to both sides the pilots knew what was on the table before they took up the role and if it is self employed there is savage tax benefits to them and from what i'm reading its a good step onto the ladder for them to move onto other things.

And if thats what their using it for how bad.

The 19 hours a week thing is O Leary using the average of hours and is sensational to say the least but thats all.

At the end of the day the flights are cheap because money is being saved somewhere, so the lad sitting in the back on his 12 euro flight drinking an over priced can of beer doesn't give a fiddlers once he gets to his destination safely

Comhrá

http://www.thejournal.ie/ryanair-caa-rerouting-3612081-Sep2017/?utm_source=twitter_self

L1011

Comhra wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/ryanair-caa-rerouting-3612081-Sep2017/?utm_source=twitter_self

With absolutely no agreements in place to do so, that's going to be expensive for them.

Even airlines with extensive agreements loathe to go outside their close partners (alliance normally) - I had a LH rep tell me there were no rerouting options available at all until I pushed them with Skyscanner show availability on AY.

FR will realistically be looking at buying tickets at retail GDS prices which are often slightly higher than the web fares for the same airlines.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

With absolutely no agreements in place to do so, that's going to be expensive for them.

Even airlines with extensive agreements loathe to go outside their close partners (alliance normally) - I had a LH rep tell me there were no rerouting options available at all until I pushed them with Skyscanner show availability on AY.

Do Airlines really have to pay the costs for routing someone on another airline?

The reason I ask, is if this is true I'd suggest that the CAA gets airlines registered in it's own country to comply with this before it starts going after airlines that are registered in other countries, because one of my managers reguarly flies with BA for business and they simply refused to do so saying they were not forced to and the CAA didn't seem to be that bothered.

Thing is reps are often not transparent about the kind of things you said the LH rep said to you, normaly they're just looking after themselves and will pretend they don't know about such flights unless you actively point it out, I had a situation with one airline once where we were diverted and were fed false information to shut us up which in the end resulted in me getting a large amount of compensation.

L1011

devnull wrote: »

Do Airlines really have to pay the costs for routing someone on another airline?

Absolutely. When they have deals with each other, any irrops re-routes are netted off against each other and only the balance actually gets remitted. When they don't have deals they pay retail. Alliances often have different deals, metal-neutral joint ventures are a different beast again also as it doesn't matter which carrier you fly with.

Why would you expect a completely innocent party to bare any costs?

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

Why would you expect a completely innocent party to bare any costs?

I don't - my issue more was that the CAA appear to be trying to force this now with Ryanair but my colleagues experience is they haven't been doing so across the board every time disruption like this happens - I agree that airlines should have to do this but it needs to be all airlines, all of the time not just picking and choosing.

L1011

devnull wrote: »

I don't - my issue more was that the CAA appear to be trying to force this now with Ryanair but my colleagues experience is they haven't been doing so across the board every time disruption like this happens - I agree that airlines should have to do this but it needs to be all airlines, all of the time not just picking and choosing.

EU261 requires rerouting. The IAA should have forced the issue, to be honest.

Until recently, FRs completition % was so high and the routes the served often had no suitable re-route options anyway that it has never been an issue. Now it is.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

adam88

Hi. Just a few questions.

This 18 -20 hours that's being mooted. I presume this is chocks off chocks on. Is it really true that the time in the airport before the flight looking st maps and weather and time sitting waiting for push back is unpaid.

And on average what would the average Ryanair payroll pilot earn vs a contracter pilot.

Sorry if the terms are simple terms I'm a simple sort of boy

L1011

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

LH GDS fares add a fee for not using their website also. Although it's not beyond the realms of possibility that skyscanner and a company credit card would be used!

grogi

adam88 wrote: »

Hi. Just a few questions.

This 18-20 hours that's being mooted. I presume this is chocks off chocks on. Is it really true that the time in the airport before the flight looking st maps and weather and time sitting waiting for push back is unpaid.

Regulations include:
* The night-time flying: maximum 11h.
* The yearly flying time of 1,000 hours (19 hours/week).
* The weekly rest of 2 days twice a month.
* The grant of up to five days of rest at home base in case of significant time-zone crossing.
* Maximum duty time, which includes standby time, of 16 hours.

http://www.thejournal.ie/pilot-hours-1121286-Oct2013/

737max

I just booked 3 return flights for early 2018. Only one of them is with Ryanair.
All the flights are very cheap because Ryanair forces the rest of the industry to be competitive. In fact Ryanair flight was more expensive than other two(holiday weekend) but I don't resent them it as they make flying with other airlines more affordable and the other airlines offer a product I want which is no snacks on board and carry-on only with streamlined internet check-in.

There is an awful lot of bitching on this thread. Without ryanair these people bitching about Ryanair would be bitching about how Ireland is a kip and there is nothing to do because they couldn't afford to go on short trips abroad to break the monotony.
Malcontents; If it isn't one thing it is another.

L1011

737max wrote: »

I just booked 3 return flights for early 2018. Only one of them is with Ryanair.
All the flights are very cheap because Ryanair forces the rest of the industry to be competitive. In fact Ryanair flight was more expensive than other two(holiday weekend) but I don't resent them it as they make flying with other airlines more affordable and the other airlines offer a product I want which is no snacks on board and carry-on only with streamlined internet check-in.

There is an awful lot of bitching on this thread. Without ryanair these people bitching about Ryanair would be bitching about how Ireland is a kip and there is nothing to do because they couldn't afford to go on short trips abroad to break the monotony.
Malcontents; If it isn't one thing it is another.

If Ryanair had never existed it would have been another airline. EU deregulation reduced prices, not one airline.

Their efforts to kill competition on routes have done long term damage to the consumer here - ask anyone who used Wizz, Jet2 or Easyjet at our regional airports.

737max

So, one of the incumbents who were in existence could have done it but they didn't and despite the long history of failed new entrants or new entrants choosing to not compete on price with incumbents once they had gained a toe-hold you are 100% confident that another would have done it instead.
The dignified thing to do would be to give credit where it is due.

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

Their efforts to kill competition on routes have done long term damage to the consumer here - ask anyone who used Wizz, Jet2 or Easyjet at our regional airports.

I won't shed any tears about Wizz going, they were playing the same game with Ryanair across a lot of central and Eastern Europe as Ryanair have been playing with them here, they're also a very expensive airline when they have no competition.

They're also the true king of the additional services with their now removed effective fuel surcharging for luggage, profiteering from delays via their delay warranty product, requirement to pay membership to get their lowest fares and selling access to the cockpit like it's some commodity.

Wizz are the one company I've had to raise serious complaints about on two occasions about how they operate their flights which is quite something when I've only flew with them 5-6 times at most.

L1011

737max wrote: »

So, one of the incumbents who were in existence could have done it but they didn't and despite the long history of failed new entrants or new entrants choosing to not compete on price with incumbents once they had gained a toe-hold you are 100% confident that another would have done it instead.
The dignified thing to do would be to give credit where it is due.

I would have excepted a new entrant to do it; and looking at the entire rest of Europe that is exactly what happened. Mostly in countries much less reliant on air transit than we are.

However. Ryanair were absolutely an incumbent by the time deregulation came. There is significant revisionism in the view that they were a white knight from nowhere that rescued us from the evil IATA members. Ireland is fairly unique in that an incumbent became the dominant LCC; otherwise we would have had a new entrant of some description.

jimmycrackcorm

L1011 wrote:

With huge caveats attached.

I don't think the caveats were huge. Don't take the piss with sick leave, stay for a year (like most people who earn bonuses need to do) and give up some time off in return for thousands

adam88 wrote:

And on average what would the average Ryanair payroll pilot earn vs a contracter pilot.

That would be a well kept secret I think, but I'd say it's in excess of what a well paid IT contractor would get.

L1011

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I don't think the caveats were huge. Don't take the piss with sick leave, stay for a year (like most people who earn bonuses need to do) and give up some time off in return for thousands

Limiting sick leave in an industry where working sick can, and does, kill people is not sensible. Employer better occupational medicine doctors if you think people are taking the piss.

JCX BXC

Think Michael needs to calm it a little, issues are starting to show and his recent comments won't help, unless he reduces moral so much that they give up (which isn't a good thing).

He's gotten off with saying worse things in the past however so unless he makes a real mistake he's staying put imo.

737max

L1011 wrote: »

I would have excepted a new entrant to do it; and looking at the entire rest of Europe that is exactly what
However. Ryanair were absolutely an incumbent by the time deregulation came. There is significant revisionism in the view that they were a white knight from nowhere that rescued us from the evil IATA members. Ireland is fairly unique in that an incumbent became the dominant LCC; otherwise we would have had a new entrant of some description happened. Mostly in countries much less reliant on air transit than we are..

You do know that Tony Ryan conceived the airline which was to be called Irelandia and became Ryanair as an airline which would fly shannon to new york for 99 pounds and ireland to london for 29 pounds. It was always a LCC from inception onward.

L1011

737max wrote: »

You do know that Tony Ryan conceived the airline which was to be called Irelandia and became Ryanair as an airline which would fly shannon to new york for 99 pounds and ireland to london for 29 pounds. It was always a LCC from inception onward.

He may have conceived that but it sure as hell isn't what he created, and it still doesn't exist.

He founded an airline that flew Dublin-UK and some European ports as well as regional Ireland-UK for a few quid cheaper than the IATA regulated fares. And that is precisely what Ryanair remained until deregulation. It was not an LCC until then. Revisionism is a curse, and you're doing it.

At one stage their boast was they were £1 cheaper to LON and offered more flexibility and a better FFP!

737max

You are the one who is doing revisionism. The homepage of Ryanair's website proves this. There are 1 million 9.99 fares available at the moment. This isn't a once off; they keep pushing low fares throughout the year. If they were aiming to keep just below the fare level of the legacy carriers their fares would be much higher than they are. They make roughly7 euro per passenger based on the numbers of passengers carried per year divided in to annual profit.
They are undeniably a Low Cost Carrier and their influence on the market forces other airlines to keep their prices low otherwise they'd be flying near empty.

Your hatred of them is so deep seated that you are not able to step back and see how ridiculous the claims you make actually are. Maybe the thanks of the Partizans misleads you in to thinking you are talking sense. I'm off to bed. Got to collect someone from the airport early tomorrow morning on a cheap flight from a Ryanair competitor who would not have been selling cheap flights if not for Ryanair. Without the cheap flight this person would never have traveled.

joeysoap

Small question as a result of reading posts on this thread;

is it 19 hours a week or 1,000 hours per year? I ask this because if a pilot (with any airline) reported sick for xxx days or even xxx weeks, would the airline still schedule that pilot for 1,000 hours per year or would hours be reduced because of their sick leave?

L1011

737max wrote: »

You are the one who is doing revisionism. The homepage of Ryanair's website proves this. There are 1 million 9.99 fares available at the moment. This isn't a once off; they keep pushing low fares throughout the year. If they were aiming to keep just below the fare level of the legacy carriers their fares would be much higher than they are. They make roughly7 euro per passenger based on the numbers of passengers carried per year divided in to annual profit.
They are undeniably a Low Cost Carrier and their influence on the market forces other airlines to keep their prices low otherwise they'd be flying near empty.

Your hatred of them is so deep seated that you are not able to step back and see how ridiculous the claims you make actually are. Maybe the thanks of the Partizans misleads you in to thinking you are talking sense. I'm off to bed. Got to collect someone from the airport early tomorrow morning on a cheap flight from a Ryanair competitor who would not have been selling cheap flights if not for Ryanair. Without the cheap flight this person would never have traveled.

This entire post makes absolutely zero sense - you appear to have decided that you want an argument with me but haven't actually got a coherent one to try.

Ryanair were not founded as a LCC. Rattling off data about them being one now is as irrelevant as you can get.

If they had never existed, another LCC would have entered the Irish market - either an a completely new carrier or one of the other LCCs.

We would still have cheap fares.

Ryanair did not save us from IATA regulated fares, the EU did. That O'Leary hates the institution that let his airline become what they are is an irony.

1123heavy

Is it just me or does anyone else think the IAA are being a bit laid back with this, when they should perhaps be making their presence felt?

I have seen numerous articles from publications across europe, in particular italy, in which an image of the iaa allowing ryanair to get away with murder is a part of the cause. This is leading to calls for their own national authorities to intervene.

It really doesn't make Ireland look good, even on British radio there is an undertone that Ryanair are getting away with this because the Irish aviation authority hasn't stopped them or being strong enough. Does O'Leary have this much influence on them?

L1011

joeysoap wrote: »

Small question as a result of reading posts on this thread;

is it 19 hours a week or 1,000 hours per year? I ask this because if a pilot (with any airline) reported sick for xxx days or even xxx weeks, would the airline still schedule that pilot for 1,000 hours per year or would hours be reduced because of their sick leave?

FTLs are for a rolling 12 months; someone who doesn't fly for a period can still fly the full limit; once the shorter rolling limits are still kept to.

It'd be quite possible to get to your annual limit in a few short intensive bursts in a year.

1123heavy wrote: »

It really doesn't make Ireland look good, even on British radio there is an undertone that Ryanair are getting away with this because the Irish aviation authority hasn't stopped them or being strong enough. Does O'Leary have this much influence on them?

He doesn't have any influence over them. Part of what you're seeing is because the UK media love a bit of paddywhackery when they can get away with it. The UK Daily Mail has multiple articles a year that have to be deleted before the Irish edition gets printed due to that for instance.

1123heavy

joeysoap wrote: »

Small question as a result of reading posts on this thread;

is it 19 hours a week or 1,000 hours per year? I ask this because if a pilot (with any airline) reported sick for xxx days or even xxx weeks, would the airline still schedule that pilot for 1,000 hours per year or would hours be reduced because of their sick leave?

Directly from the EASA regs:

"The total flight time of the sectors on which an individual crew member is assigned as
an operating crew member shall not exceed:
(1) 100 hours of flight time in any 28 consecutive days;
(2) 900 hours of flight time in any calendar year; and
(3) 1 000 hours of flight time in any 12 consecutive calendar months"

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/combined_easa_ftl_regulations_ukcaa_2014_0218.pdf

O'leary rather deceptively just took the 1000 limit in 12 months and divided it by 52 weeks to come at his 18 hour figure - a severe distortion of reality.

Bare in mind the hours quoted are block hours. Turning up to the airport, preparing for the flight, preparing the aircraft, waiting for all passengers to board is not included. So they are 'at work' for a lot more than the figures in those regulations state.

1123heavy

L1011 wrote: »

He doesn't have any influence over them. Part of what you're seeing is because the UK media love a bit of paddywhackery when they can get away with it. The UK Daily Mail has multiple articles a year that have to be deleted before the Irish edition gets printed due to that for instance.

It hasn't just been the UK media though, the CAA have weighed in. Also some of the points the Italians made in particular show that they have been in breach of several Italian laws around this dispute alone. Their transport minister has promised an investigation if need be. And by influence I meant more that they want him to sort this out rather than come in and start being picky about how exactly they're going about, being a bit more lenient than they might be if they were not a major Irish airline.