Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

L1011

1123heavy wrote: »

It hasn't just been the UK media though. Some of the points the Italians made in particular show that they have been in breach of several Italian laws around this dispute alone. Their transport minister has promised an investigation if need be. And by influence I meant more that they want him to sort this out rather than come in and start being picky about how exactly they're going about, being a bit more lenient than they might be if they were not a major Irish airline.

The regulatory attitude to local laws (for all airlines) has usually been to let the courts decide; they regulate Irish and EU law.

I do feel they've been rather lacking here; but its not down to influence by FR/MOL. FRs position has changed multiple times in the same day which does make pronouncements a bit harder!

joeysoap

1123heavy wrote: »

Directly from the EASA regs:

"The total flight time of the sectors on which an individual crew member is assigned as
an operating crew member shall not exceed:
(1) 100 hours of flight time in any 28 consecutive days;
(2) 900 hours of flight time in any calendar year; and
(3) 1 000 hours of flight time in any 12 consecutive calendar months"

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/combined_easa_ftl_regulations_ukcaa_2014_0218.pdf

O'leary rather deceptively just took the 1000 limit in 12 months and divided it by 52 weeks to come at his 18 hour figure - a severe distortion of reality.

Bare in mind the hours quoted are block hours. Turning up to the airport, preparing for the flight, preparing the aircraft, waiting for all passengers to board is not included. So they are 'at work' for a lot more than the figures in those regulations state.

So if a RY pilot went sick for say 5 days, and lost the 'bonus' he still might (probably) be still required to fly the maxiimum yearly hours?

L1011

joeysoap wrote: »

So if a RY pilot went sick for say 5 days, and lost the 'bonus' he still might (probably) be still required to fly the maxiimum yearly hours?

Yes. Hence (part of) why the sick leave thing is a joke and is a way to try get out of paying the bonus to people who sign up for it.

grogi

1123heavy wrote: »

O'leary rather deceptively just took the 1000 limit in 12 months and divided it by 52 weeks to come at his 18 hour figure - a severe distortion of reality.

How unusual of him, downplay the responsibilities of the people the business depends on...

john boye

L1011 wrote: »

This entire post makes absolutely zero sense - you appear to have decided that you want an argument with me but haven't actually got a coherent one to try.

Ryanair were not founded as a LCC. Rattling off data about them being one now is as irrelevant as you can get.

If they had never existed, another LCC would have entered the Irish market - either an a completely new carrier or one of the other LCCs.

We would still have cheap fares.

Ryanair did not save us from IATA regulated fares, the EU did. That O'Leary hates the institution that let his airline become what they are is an irony.

737max is just doing his usual thing of letting his own hilarious hatred for other airlines get him in to a tizz and start throwing out "You hate Ryanair" accusations when people start presenting facts to counter his version of the truth.

As you say Ryanair started as a slightly cheaper alternative to the legacys, but they certainly weren't a LCC at the time. I do however believe that MOL is the one who deserves credit for introducing low fares to Europe. But again as you say, if he hadn't done it then someone else would have. De-regulation had finally happened in Europe and the LCC concept had been going for years in the US with Southwest and it was only a matter of time before it came to Europe.

Bsal

1123heavy wrote: »

Is it just me or does anyone else think the IAA are being a bit laid back with this, when they should perhaps be making their presence felt?

I have seen numerous articles from publications across europe, in particular italy, in which an image of the iaa allowing ryanair to get away with murder is a part of the cause. This is leading to calls for their own national authorities to intervene.

It really doesn't make Ireland look good, even on British radio there is an undertone that Ryanair are getting away with this because the Irish aviation authority hasn't stopped them or being strong enough. Does O'Leary have this much influence on them?

IAA don't want to upset Mr. O'Leary because he might take all his aircraft and pilots off their books methinks.

Bob24

1123heavy wrote: »

L1011 wrote: »

He doesn't have any influence over them. Part of what you're seeing is because the UK media love a bit of paddywhackery when they can get away with it. The UK Daily Mail has multiple articles a year that have to be deleted before the Irish edition gets printed due to that for instance.

It hasn't just been the UK media though, the CAA have weighed in. Also some of the points the Italians made in particular show that they have been in breach of several Italian laws around this dispute alone. Their transport minister has promised an investigation if need be. And by influence I meant more that they want him to sort this out rather than come in and start being picky about how exactly they're going about, being a bit more lenient than they might be if they were not a major Irish airline.

I am in France at the moment (flew there with Aer Lingus!) and it is is in the media here as well. People know about it and I was told I was luck not to have booked Ryanair (and it wasn’t me bringing up the topic).

I assume there are talks about it in all European counties served by Ryanair, and it would be wrong to think it is just an Irish/British media thing.

alchemist33

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0922/906745-ryanair/

I can't see this having been mentioned since last night - staff being told they HAVE to take 6 weeks unpaid leave unless they base themselves in a other country for the six weeks, paying for their own accomodation and food. It would almost be acceptable if the company was on the brink of bankruptcy, but it isn't. Imagine being one of those workers with a family to look after. It's like living in the 1920s.

Bob24

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I know a few people who are contractors by choice. Works both ways.

I do as well (especially in IT), but I don’t think it compares to what Ryanair has to offer.

Usually people like being contractors for one or more of the following reasons:
- higher wage compared to an equivalent permanent position
- can work in a variety of companies on a variety of projects which can be more interesting and better in terms of work experience
- many opportunities to take an extended leave between contracts if you wish to do so

If I apply this at to what Ryanair has to offer, the wages don’t seem better than a permanent contract with another airline, by nature there isn’t that much verity in the job, and I doubt the company tolerates its contractors going on and off to take long leaves or try other airlines. This makes me think that most Ryanair’s pilots are not contractors by choice but simply because that’s just the way it is.

View Profile

Bob24 wrote:

......and I doubt the company tolerates its contractors going on and off to take long leaves or try other airlines. This makes me think that most Ryanair’s pilots are not contractors by choice but simply because that’s just the way it is.

As a contract pilot for Ryanair you are forbidden from engaging services for any other airline.

Tenger

alchemist33 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0922/906745-ryanair/

I can't see this having been mentioned since last night - staff being told they HAVE to take 6 weeks unpaid leave unless they base themselves in a other country for the six weeks, paying for their own accomodation and food. It would almost be acceptable if the company was on the brink of bankruptcy, but it isn't. Imagine being one of those workers with a family to look after. It's like living in the 1920s.

The industry is very seasonal, and in the past MoL has made sensational claims about "grounding 80 aircraft over the Winter". FR do greatly reduce their schedule over the Winter, this results in less flying hours for their crew. Summer is the busy time and thus how their crew manage to reach hours limits at this time of the year. Having many of your crew as contractors allows them to reduce work in the low season very easily.

I think this is the first time that FR gave made this announcement. Maybe it was only made public due to
But keep in mind that other EU airlines do the same. I'm not sure that they gave the temporary "rebasing" option to crew however.

lucernarian

I'm surprised the extent to which MOL has held his staff in blatant contempt as well as the travelling public this time.

Am I missing something here? E.g. the stock price has held fairly stable and I know I'm factoring in "not wanting to fly with Ryanair" for upcoming trips, when I haven't before.

devnull

alchemist33 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0922/906745-ryanair/

I can't see this having been mentioned since last night - staff being told they HAVE to take 6 weeks unpaid leave unless they base themselves in a other country for the six weeks, paying for their own accomodation and food. It would almost be acceptable if the company was on the brink of bankruptcy, but it isn't. Imagine being one of those workers with a family to look after. It's like living in the 1920s.

It's exactly the same in every airline that staff have time off in the winter, all airlines in Europe run last flights in the winter to the summer, what do you think they do with the excess staff in the winter,?

Wanderer78

lucernarian wrote:

Am I missing something here? E.g. the stock price has held fairly stable and I know I'm factoring in "not wanting to fly with Ryanair" for upcoming trips, when I haven't before.

Stock markets don't always truly reflect the 'health' of a business, I've never been able to find the right term to explain this. We are being constantly told that these economic systems reflect the health of the economy, I'm not convinced, it's a complicated relationship. I personally think we operate in a two tier economic system, I particularly like Jim Richards use of the term, 'complex dynamic system', it's a very good way of explaining these systems. I believe the stock market represents the economy of the minority most of the time, but complexly intertwines the economy of the majority. It truly doesn't represent the economy for the majority of citizens, or it doesn't represent it fully.

lucernarian

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Stock markets don't always truly reflect the 'health' of a business, I've never been able to find the right term to explain this. We are being constantly told that these economic systems reflect the health of the economy, I'm not convinced, it's a complicated relationship. I personally think we operate in a two tier economic system, I particularly like Jim Richards use of the term, 'complex dynamic system', it's a very good way of explaining these systems. I believe the stock market represents the economy of the minority most of the time, but complexly intertwines the economy of the majority. It truly doesn't represent the economy for the majority of citizens, or it doesn't represent it fully.

Sure, my point was bigger than about stock markets and maybe I should have written more. I'm wondering whose head or heads will roll for the series of debacles? Will there be a perceptible change in customer outlook and behaviour as a result of all this?

There's the quasi-lottery that existed over flight cancellations. The punitive changes to cabin baggage for anything bigger than a handbag. The total lack of respect shown to pilots. The CEO's odious commentary on all facets of Irish life when FG or some university business society invite him over for a bit of craic at their meetings.

Mebuntu

They're all coming out from under the floorboards now.

http://www.independent.ie/business/pilot-unions-from-around-the-world-lend-their-support-to-ryanair-pilots-as-dispute-continues-over-pay-36161115.html

"Allied Pilots Association was preparing earlier this week to send up to 350 US pilots to Dublin to picket the Ryanair annual general meeting on Thursday."

These are part of the same crowd who tried to pull every stroke in the book to stop Norwegian getting into the US from Ireland.

Extraordinary how these folk can't keep their noses out of things that are none of their business.

The Rape of Lucretia

Mebuntu wrote: »

They're all coming out from under the floorboards now.

Its a profession going through a transition like many whose earning power, prestige, rarity, bargaining power changes over time like teachers, miners, etc through technological advancement and market forces. Being a pilot isnt what it was - but it is hard for those within the profession already to adapt to that, understandably. And also understandable that they will try to resist it as far as possible. It is an erosion of pay, power, position, conditions, and so is unpleasant, and a change from what they are used to or feel they signed up for.
So there is conflict in the transition. But transition it will. A new equilibrium will be found and adapted to.

lucernarian

Mebuntu wrote: »

They're all coming out from under the floorboards now.

http://www.independent.ie/business/pilot-unions-from-around-the-world-lend-their-support-to-ryanair-pilots-as-dispute-continues-over-pay-36161115.html

"Allied Pilots Association was preparing earlier this week to send up to 350 US pilots to Dublin to picket the Ryanair annual general meeting on Thursday."

These are part of the same crowd who tried to pull every stroke in the book to stop Norwegian getting into the US from Ireland.

Extraordinary how these folk can't keep their noses out of things that are none of their business.

It's not up to you or me to decide what's their business and if they want to engage in lawful protest or whatever. They clearly have an agenda going by their name, it's hardly something extraordinary however.

Bob24

Sorry if this has been posted before and I missed it, but interesting read here with the opinion of someone who has first hand experience with being a Ryanair pilot: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/20/ryanair-treat-pilots-better-crisis-long-haul

Wanderer78

lucernarian wrote: »

Sure, my point was bigger than about stock markets and maybe I should have written more. I'm wondering whose head or heads will roll for the series of debacles? Will there be a perceptible change in customer outlook and behaviour as a result of all this?

There's the quasi-lottery that existed over flight cancellations. The punitive changes to cabin baggage for anything bigger than a handbag. The total lack of respect shown to pilots. The CEO's odious commentary on all facets of Irish life when FG or some university business society invite him over for a bit of craic at their meetings.

you re hitting the nail on the head here, or nails on heads maybe. my suspicions here that very few heads will actually roll, but its possible some of the most vulnerable positions could be a lot more vulnerable after the fact. possibly some schedulers rolls could be lost or others etc, i dont know the structure of these organisations. i also suspect not much will change in relation to customer treatment and even customer outlook either, but of course i could be completely wrong as well. you d be surprised how people react to these situations, an element of f you jack im ok can be prevalent. its the nature of the beast really, unsustainable and highly destructive for society as a whole. i suspect this will all blow over in time, and it ll be business as usual, with not a whole lot changing in the greater scheme of things.

the overall aim of the game here is as you say, 'disrespect', disrespect all, period, as this is the best way to create 'profit maximisation', or what people like alan greenspan would say, is 'good for the economy', thankfully these profits 'trickle down' to all in society! :rolleyes: then your other 'nail', the mix of business, particularly big business with our political system, do we really need to go into that:)

Bob24 wrote: »

Sorry if this has been posted before and I missed it, but interesting read here with the opinion of someone who has first hand experience with being a Ryanair pilot:

posted already, very good read. thank you

Mebuntu

lucernarian wrote: »

They clearly have an agenda going by their name, it's hardly something extraordinary however.

Well, next time Dublin Bus workers are on strike I think it would be considered extraordinary if the Unionista Alliedo Busa di Bolivia would be trying to organise a delegation of 350 bus drivers to come to Dublin to support them. Why should it be any different when a US pilot union does it?

etselbbuns

fr336

etselbbuns wrote: »

Talk about kicking a man while he's down :D

devnull

Mebuntu wrote: »

They're all coming out from under the floorboards now.

http://www.independent.ie/business/pilot-unions-from-around-the-world-lend-their-support-to-ryanair-pilots-as-dispute-continues-over-pay-36161115.html

"Allied Pilots Association was preparing earlier this week to send up to 350 US pilots to Dublin to picket the Ryanair annual general meeting on Thursday."

These are part of the same crowd who tried to pull every stroke in the book to stop Norwegian getting into the US from Ireland.

So from reading that article an airline pilot unions from a totally different part of the world where Ryanair don't operate, have took out an advert in the press at a fairly decent cost for themselves for no other reason than to assist pilots thousands of miles away? What a charitable act!

Or could it be that maybe, just maybe they are using the Ryanair pilots for their own agenda as a pawn in their much bigger game and they couldn't care less about those pilots really?

devnull

etselbbuns wrote: »

Eurowings are a low cost airline? Really?! Not so long ago it was revealed their costs were almost as high as Ryanair's average fare!

Plus all of the issues that Lufthansa and it's businsess have had over the last few years and the last 12 months especially with their own pilots who have been on strike and cancelled a lot more flights out of Germany than Ryanair, but lets not mention that.

What next, BA coming out and mocking RA?

notharrypotter

Ryanair for years operated under the principle of all is fair in love and war.

So fair play to Eurowings for capitalizing.

If the boot was on the other foot Ryanair would have no hesitation.

1123heavy

devnull wrote: »

Plus all of the issues that Lufthansa and it's businsess have had over the last few years and the last 12 months especially with their own pilots who have been on strike and cancelled a lot more flights out of Germany than Ryanair, but lets not mention that.

Standards. The Ryanair pilots can only dream of having the deal that Lufthansa pilots went on strike for, they are able to hold the profession to a higher standard though, they haven't got a greedy man at the helm who insults them regularly.

And one other thing, there seem to be a lot of pilot experts on here, I'm interested, what licenses do ye hold and what exams have ye done that enables you all to form such opinions, to the extent that you're basically saying pilots do nothing? Lots of experts on the profession here I see. Well I tell you one thing, thank God for the unions. With a public so willing to step all over people who have worked so hard to be where they are and hold the lives of hundreds in their hands at any one time, all for the sake of saving a tenner or whatever on a ticket - that is poor, very poor. Would you like cheap dentists who are struggling to survive as the next thing? How about cheap architects to design your new home? Pay them as little as possible, tell them their job isn't what it used to be ... but still expect them to perform exceptionally in their job, and you rely a lot on them doing so.

Interesting things on here.

lucernarian

Mebuntu wrote: »

Well, next time Dublin Bus workers are on strike I think it would be considered extraordinary if the Unionista Alliedo Busa di Bolivia would be trying to organise a delegation of 350 bus drivers to come to Dublin to support them. Why should it be any different when a US pilot union does it?

That's ridiculous - you've already showed they have a track record in "poking their nose in other people's business". There's nothing extraordinary about (edit: potential picketing), whatever your personal feelings on the matter. Tbh even in the example you give, I wouldn't be incredibly surprised. I found a certain cretin from Dundalk's involvement in water metering to be far more extraordinary for instance, but that was was an issue of national importance.

This move by a bunch of US pilots to threaten pickets is hardly of great significance. "Stupid", "symptomatic" or "agenda-driven" maybe...

lucernarian

devnull wrote: »

Eurowings are a low cost airline? Really?! Not so long ago it was revealed their costs were almost as high as Ryanair's average fare!

Plus all of the issues that Lufthansa and it's businsess have had over the last few years and the last 12 months especially with their own pilots who have been on strike and cancelled a lot more flights out of Germany than Ryanair, but lets not mention that.

What next, BA coming out and mocking RA?

Bit of a straw man there? They only wrote to book "low cost flights", some marketing spiel or other. Nothing about being a low cost airline - something I suspect comparatively few airlines try to promote in their marketing campaigns.

L1011

Full page ad from the APA in the Irish Times today. Odd for a US domestic union to get involved as said above.