Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

billy few mates

devnull wrote: »

Classic scaremongering there, personally I reckon they have everything sorted now but time will tell and for sure the UK media will be playing games and trying to play up the most minor aathings as they have done to date by dragging it out and the ridicolous treatment that Kenny Jacobs got.



So let me get this straight, if Ryanair don't give full and proper details on EU261 on pages on their website in relation to cancellations, then the CAA are right to throw the book at them because they are not complying with their obligations.

However if Wizz or other airlines don't even mention EU261, routing on other airlines, land based transport providers, expenses and compensation then that's okay and not a problem and we should just turn a blind eye to it because they're not Ryanair?

I'm all for consumer rights, but it has to be enforced across the board and all rules need to apply to all operators all of the time, because if the CAA want to come down hard on one operator then I expect it to do the same on all operators who are doing exactly the same.



With all due respect, employees of other airlines and unions linked to these airlines have a vested interest in this, I wouldn't rely on the word of Ryanair staff to describe issues within Aer Lingus just like I wouldn't rely on Aer Lingus staff to describe issues within Ryanair because in both cases the staff would not be objective as they have their own stake in the game so to speak.

I have to admire your confidence and indeed your unwavering support for Ryanair on this debate but this debacle is far from over and until certainty is restored people will be avoiding Ryanair in their droves.
I was talking to a colleague yesterday and he told me he'd booked some flights for a family trip and for the first time in years he didn't even bother checking how much he could have saved by going with Ryanair, he said he didn't care how cheap they were he "wasn't going to chance it"...

__..__

Tenger wrote: »

I think you will find that their are posters on both sides of this debate.
2-4% is a small number, but 400,000 is a large number.
If you are affected then it is a problem, if you are just an observer then it's a sticky situation.
Let's see you adding to the debate rather than throwing out personal insults at opinions other than your own

Ryanair said that it was all sorted.
I trusted them at their word.
Then it turned out they had lied.
It wasn't sorted at all.
Do you believe now that Ryanair can be believed when they say that a flight you book is safe?
I certainly don't. And I don't understand how anybody could after what has transpired tbh.

Mebuntu

I see that the Secretary of the European Cockpit Association has this morning attacked the IAA.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanair-flights-fiasco-iaa-defends-its-role-as-airline-faces-compensation-deadline-today-36181265.html

"He claimed on RTE that there was “something seriously wrong” with the way in which the IAA oversees airlines".

I think the IAA have good grounds to sue over this claim as it impugns their integrity.

Yet another case of people sticking their noses in where they don't belong.

duskyjoe

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I'll be taking a small punt later on. Looking like a good time to invest.

The business is sound (I hope) but they've made a mess of a few smallish things.

The markets won’t rest until a serious response is given to CAA. SP down 3% . Didn’t Wareen. Under or the lime say when there’s blood on the streets then it’s the time to buy. FR is an immense business model- they just need to sort out this dire mess

View Profile

Mebuntu wrote:

Yet another case of people sticking their noses in where they don't belong.

I think it's very much their business as they represent thousands of both Irish and European airline pilots.

fr336

__..__ wrote: »

It's become a Ryanair apologist thread alright.
I didn't know Ryanair would have paid for so many shills. Wonder what the rate is.

Oh it's impossible for someone to have a different opinion to you eh?

Bob24

fr336 wrote: »

Oh it's impossible for someone to have a different opinion to you eh?

For sure different opinions are OK. But there's been quite a bit of truth bending (if not more) in some posts to defend Ryanair to the bitter end.

One example which comes to mind is some posts calling flight cancellations "schedule changes". This is blindly repeating Ryanairtalk to make it sound like flights are being rescheduled whereas in practise there are simply being suppressed. It is a rhetoric trick devised by Ryanair to make the issue sound smaller than it really is and posters going for it is a bit disappointing.

I don't think it should be a matter of option to say that if a flight was meant to operate on the 10th of December at 1PM and you send an email to customers to tell them the flight will actually leave it 1.30PM that day, it is a schedule change. But it you email customers to tell them the flight won't leave at all and they will have to book a different flight (which is what we are talking about in this thread), then it is a cancellation.

devnull

Bob24 wrote: »

I don't think it should be a matter of option to say that if a flight was meant to operate on the 10th of December at 1PM and you send an email to the customer to tell them the flight will actually leave it 1.30PM it is a schedule change. But it you email the customer to tell them the flight won't leave at all and they will have to book a different flight (which is what we are talking about in this thread), then it is a cancellation.

Strangely enough I also have an email from two other airlines in my inbox referring to a schedule change that involves moving from a flight on one day to a flight on another day and they used the term too

If someone has a flight moved from one day to another it can be considered as a schedule change, if they do not like a schedule change they can go for a refund, it's perfectly understandable for me to be honest.

The only thing that cannot be called a schedule change is if all flights are cancelled and there are no more on offer to the person as the route is suspended, and those were referred to as suspensions rather than schedule changes.

Bob24

devnull wrote: »

Strangely enough I also have an email from two other airlines in my inbox referring to a schedule change that involves moving from a flight on one day to a flight on another day and they used the term too

If someone has a flight moved from one day to another it can be considered as a schedule change, if they do not like a schedule change they can go for a refund, it's perfectly understandable for me to be honest.

The only thing that cannot be called a schedule change is if all flights are cancelled and there are no more on offer to the person as the route is suspended, and those were referred to as suspensions rather than schedule changes.

This is pretty much what I meant in terms of rhetorical tricks.

If a flight which was sold to customers as leaving on a given day actually never leaves that day, you can possibly say a booking which was supposed to be on that flight is being rescheduled to a different flight (though I don't think it is great terminology).

But the flight itself never happens and is definitly cancelled, not rescheduled.

And here we are talking about flights, not bookings. So talking about rescheduling is definitely incorrect.

devnull

Bob24 wrote: »

This is pretty much what I meant in terms of rhetorical tricks.

It's not a rhetorical trick, it's simply a difference of opinion and interpretation.

But the flight itself is definitly cancelled, not rescheduled.

But Ryanair never talked about flights in isolation or about customers schedules, they simply talked about their own schedule and that they have made changes to that, if they were talking about peoples schedule or individual flights I would see your point but they are not

The terminology Ryanair use is: "All other of Ryanair’s 1,800 routes will continue to operate for the winter. Some have had schedule changes but customers have been offered alternative flights."

For me schedule in this instance is used as an overarching term to describe all of Ryanair's flight activities for the winter season, there have been changes to this schedule involving the moving of some flights, removal of some flights and merging of flights together which collectively can be known as schedule change.s.

This is standard in the aviation world where schedules are laid out up to 12 months in advance that the frequencies can change, people from multiple flights can be combined, times can change etc, I've often booked flights well ahead of time and had them changed, nothing new with that.

I even have an email from Easyjet in my inbox that said my flight has been changed due to summer schedule changes which was in fact due to a frequency cut and my flight was removed but described as a schedule change and also one from Lufthansa from the past also described as a schedule change to the next day.

And here we are talking about flights, not bookings. So talking about rescheduling is definitely incorrect.

See quoted Ryanair press article above, they never mentioned flights, just routes in relation to schedule changes, so the routes are having their schedules changed, not the flights exactly the same as Luft and Easyjet did with me.

devnull

Latest snipped

Ryanair has called upon the UK CAA to now require UK airlines to comply with these EU261 obligations which the CAA did not apply to British Airways in May this year, when a computer meltdown stranded hundreds of thousands of British citizens/visitors at London Heathrow and many other airports, with no apparent action taken by the CAA in respect of re-accommodation or enforcement against British Airways.

Bob24

devnull wrote: »

It's not a rhetorical trick, it's simply a difference of opinion and interpretation.



But Ryanair never talked about flights in isolation or about customers schedules, they simply talked about their own schedule and that they have made changes to that, if they were talking about peoples schedule or individual flights I would see your point but they are not

The terminology Ryanair use is: "All other of Ryanair’s 1,800 routes will continue to operate for the winter. Some have had schedule changes but customers have been offered alternative flights."

For me schedule in this instance is used as an overarching term to describe all of Ryanair's flight activities for the winter season, there have been changes to this schedule involving the moving of some flights, removal of some flights and merging of flights together which collectively can be known as schedule change.s.

This is standard in the aviation world where schedules are laid out up to 12 months in advance that the frequencies can change, people from multiple flights can be combined, times can change etc, I've often booked flights well ahead of time and had them changed, nothing new with that.

I even have an email from Easyjet in my inbox that said my flight has been changed due to summer schedule changes which was in fact due to a frequency cut and my flight was removed but described as a schedule change and also one from Lufthansa from the past also described as a schedule change to the next day.



See quoted Ryanair press article above, they never mentioned flights, just routes in relation to schedule changes, so the routes are having their schedules changed, not the flights exactly the same as Luft and Easyjet did with me.

Mind you, I am not saying this is exclusive to Ryanair or even to the airline industry to use these rhetorical tricks to make things appear softer then they really are. Companies do that all the time and it doesn't mean we have to fall for it.

But it is clear that when Ryanair says some routes have "had schedule changes but customers have been offered alternative flights", what it means is that some flights serving those routes have been cancelled. As you say they talk about the overal schedule so that they can - without lying - announce the cancellations without actually writing the word "cancellation" or saying how many there are. But this is definitely is a rhetorical trick to make it sound like flights are being reshuffled rather than canceled.

devnull

Bob24 wrote: »

Mind you, I am not saying this is exclusive to Ryanair or even to the airline industry to use these rhetorical tricks to make things appear softer then they really are. Companies do that all the time and it doesn't mean we have to fall for it.

But it is clear that when Ryanair says some routes have "had schedule changes but customers have been offered alternative flights", what it means is that some flights serving those routes have been cancelled. As you say they talk about the overal schedule so that they can - without lying - announce the cancellations without actually writing the word "cancellation" or saying how many there are. But this is definitely is a rhetorical trick to make it sound like flights are being reshuffled rather than canceled.

But not all the flights effected by the schedule changes were cancelled, some of the flights had time changes because new duty plans had to be worked out to reallocate the staff and the duties to reflect the fact that some routes were not running.

For example the Polish domestic flights have gone and the crews that do those flights normally do a couple of longer flights as part of the same crew. Instead of just starting later or finishing earlier, flights have been now moved from what would originally be done by another crew to give a full days work to one crew rather than have a few crews doing just odd bits.

Bob24

devnull wrote: »

But not all the flights effected by the schedule changes were cancelled, some of the flights had time changes because new duty plans had to be worked out to reallocate the staff and the duties to reflect the fact that some routes were not running.

For example the Polish domestic flights have gone and the crews that do those flights normally do a couple of longer flights as part of the same crew. Instead of just starting later or finishing earlier, flights have been now moved from what would originally be done by another crew to give a full days work to one crew rather than have a few crews doing just odd bits.

The point of this PR exercise was to address cancellations though. So it is obviously not by chance that Ryanair doesn't list them separatly and makes them indistinguishable from flights moving to a different time.

Lets not be naive (or falsly naive). It is so unclear (on purpose) that no-one could actually say how many flights have been cancelled after reading the press release because as some cancellation are hidden amongst actual time changes, the information is actually not there even though it is the crux of the matter.

devnull

Bob24 wrote: »

The point of this PR exercise was to address cancellations though. So it is obviously not by chance that Ryanair doesn't list them separatly and makes them indistinguishable from flights moving to a different time.

BA never listed a full list of flights effected either by their issues in a transparent way either, they just told you to search for your specific flight on their website which was clearly hiding them away as well.

Bob24

devnull wrote: »

BA never listed a full list of flights effected either by their issues in a transparent way either, they just told you to search for your specific flight on their website which was clearly hiding them away as well.

Why do you keep talking about other airlines? It is not a Ryanair vs the others thread. If BA does the same thing they obviously deserve the same criticism but here we are talking about Ryanair and their handling of this particular situation.

billy few mates

devnull wrote: »

Strangely enough I also have an email from two other airlines in my inbox referring to a schedule change that involves moving from a flight on one day to a flight on another day and they used the term too

If someone has a flight moved from one day to another it can be considered as a schedule change, if they do not like a schedule change they can go for a refund, it's perfectly understandable for me to be honest.

The only thing that cannot be called a schedule change is if all flights are cancelled and there are no more on offer to the person as the route is suspended, and those were referred to as suspensions rather than schedule changes.

You seem to be particularly unlucky when it comes to flight cancellations and 'schedule changes' when flying with other airlines, several examples in your earlier posts and now another two today, you of all people should be welcoming the intervention of the CAA, you'll be able to fight your corner the next time it happens to you whether it be Wizzair, Ryanair or any other EU registered carrier.

I'm a very frequent flyer, I always carry a printed copy of EU261 (with several important bits highlighted ).
I've never once had a flight cancellation or "schedule change" in many years of flying but on one occasion earlier this year I missed a connection with a major European carrier because their first flight was late departing DUB, they told me they were going to put me on their next flight later that night which would have meant eight hours hanging around the airport and a wasted day. I asked the customer Service agent to be put on an earlier flight with another carrier, she said she couldn't do that. I said that I would like to see the copy of EU261 they were obliged to provide me with but she said she didn't have one and I should write or email the customer services department if I had a complaint. I then took out my copy of EU 261 and my mobile phone set to voice record I asked to be rerouted on another carrier as per my rights under EU 261 and if she wasn't able to do this I would book the flight myself and claim it back and asked her to provide me with something in writing to confirm that I was not entitled to be rerouted on another carrier.
A quick phone call to someone further up the chain and I was on my way with the other carrier (and even given a €12 refreshment voucher).
It's important that people are aware of their rights, it's also important that businesses we put our trust in don't try to mislead us when it comes to exercising those rights...

devnull

Bob24 wrote: »

Why do you keep talking about other airlines? It is not a Ryanair vs the others thread. If BA does the same thing they obviously deserve the same criticism but here we are talking about Ryanair and their handling of this particular incidents.

Because there is a culture in the airline industry of knowing that the regulators will not stand up for the passengers and generally this is why so many airlines, including Ryanair are thinking that they can get away with it and lack of enforcement of regulations is always going to encourage more people not to adhere to them.

The job of a regulator is to stop this kind of thing from happening to do that you need effective rules and a regulator who actually enforces them, they have the former (even if they were from the EU) but they appear not to have been doing much of the later.

It's just the same way as the banks in this country acted recklessly in the past which was deplorable, but a fit for purpose regulatory regime could and should have stopped them acting in such a way but simply did not.

devnull

billy few mates wrote: »

You seem to be particularly unlucky when it comes to flight cancellations and 'schedule changes' when flying with other airlines, several examples in your earlier posts and now another two today, you of all people should be welcoming the intervention of the CAA,

I must have taken a few hundred flights in my life, it's really not that many in the grand scheme of things that have been effected but it can and does happen!

you'll be able to fight your corner the next time it happens to you whether it be Wizzair, Ryanair or any other EU registered carrier.

I really hope so, but my fear is that this is just being enforced on hardly because it's a big event, when a small number of passengers are effected the CAA will be nowhere near as hard in their enforcement.

I've never once had a flight cancellation or "schedule change" in many years of flying

You must be lucky then or never fly in the midst of the winter, during the times where runways have been closed, during the volcanic ash or have never booked a flight a long time in advance then.

Bob24

billy few mates wrote: »

I then took out my copy of EU 261 and my mobile phone set to voice record I asked to be rerouted on another carrier as per my rights under EU 261 and if she wasn't able to do this I would book the flight myself and claim it back and asked her to provide me with something in writing to confirm that I was not entitled to be rerouted on another carrier.
A quick phone call to someone further up the chain and I was on my way with the other carrier (and even given a €12 refreshment voucher).
It's important that people are aware of their rights, it's also important that businesses we put our trust in don't try to mislead us when it comes to exercising those rights...

Fair play to you for getting them to provide what you were entitled to, I would have liked to see the face of the customer service rep. :-) Having said that there is obviously a problem with the regulation if passengers have to do this in order to get it. Not everyone will be as prepared as you are, and to be fair nor should they be expected to as every person can't perfectly know and cary the regulation which relates to every single business they deal with (not just airlines).

Mebuntu

Bob24 wrote: »

That’s only one passenger quoted at the beginning. I absolutely believe it was a mess at first, but it seems like it was sorted later on in this he evening, unless you think Aer Lingus is blatantly lying in their summary of the incident also quoted in the article. They clearly say: “The 100 guests who could not be accommodated on flights this evening have been provided with overnight hotel accommodation and are being rebooked onto flights with a range of other carriers tomorrow”.

UPDATE: Hmm, maybe they were:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/aer-lingus-handling-of-lanzarote-cancellation-a-disgrace-1.3238478

"they are still in the dark despite claims from the airline that they had been rebooked on new flights".

"We have been abandoned by Aer Lingus and yet we are reading statements in the paper saying everything is being sorted out for passengers. It is an absolute disgrace.”

Bob24

Mebuntu wrote: »

UPDATE: Hmm, maybe they were:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/aer-lingus-handling-of-lanzarote-cancellation-a-disgrace-1.3238478

"they are still in the dark despite claims from the airline that they had been rebooked on new flights".

"We have been abandoned by Aer Lingus and yet we are reading statements in the paper saying everything is being sorted out for passengers. It is an absolute disgrace.”

If they were lying that's definitely rubbish. Now the first person (Brian Mohan) does say his group was provided with hotel accommodation and offered other flights (albeit in a very messy way and not with the best routes so I would be pissed off as well and check whether they are in line with the regulation).

Mebuntu

The CAA involvement is to be applauded. No doubt about that. The big thing now is that a marker has been laid down so that all airlines will have to be more pro-active on cancellations in future.

They have most likely been waiting for the chance for a long time to use their "muscle" and probably can't believe their luck that it is a foreign airline they can scream at rather than a UK one. I doubt very much that they issued any ultimatums or dictats to BA when they went into meltdown in May. Prior to this FR fiasco I have never heard of any airline being forced to book their passengers with other airlines.

It will be interesting to see if the CAA will now force all airlines to include that option visibly in their cancellation T&C's.

Edit: had a quick look at BA/easyjet

BA: We will rebook you onto another British Airways flight at no extra charge (subject to availability).

easyjJet: If we’re unable to get you to your destination within 48 hours you can switch to another airline, take a train or bus or hire a car. The alternative transport should be within the price range you paid for your original return flight or as close to it as possible.

devnull

Mebuntu wrote: »

It will be interesting to see if the CAA will now force all airlines to include that option visibly in their cancellation T&C's.

I wouldn't get my hopes up by the look of what they've just said.

The CAA has now claimed it:

Wrote to over 30 airlines seeking confirmation that they too are complying with the re-routing elements of EC261 legislation

:rolleyes:

How about they actually investigate and enforce their laws rather than just asking people if they are enforcing them and taking their word for it. This is the kind of non-regulation that leads to airlines acting like Ryanair have here.

devnull

Mebuntu wrote: »

easyjJet: If we’re unable to get you to your destination within 48 hours you can switch to another airline, take a train or bus or hire a car. The alternative transport should be within the price range you paid for your original return flight or as close to it as possible.

Is that even allowed? Surely they cannot cap the amount like that?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Mebuntu

devnull wrote: »

Is that even allowed? Surely they cannot cap the amount like that?

It appears they shouldn't, of course, but it (and BA's) clearly shows that they, no different to Ryanair, didn't consider it to be compulsory. As I mentioned in an earlier post the IAA said the "other airlines" aspect was open to different interpretations.

adam88

This has become a eu261 thread so I'm gona jump on a band wagon. I've several flights this year with the me3 and us airlines.

If my return flight to Ireland is affected what rights do I have???

I think I heard someone from the Irish regulator saying that you complain to the regulator in the country you depart from. I.e America or Dubai

Mebuntu

From Ryanair's website just now:

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/fr-prod-static-pdf/Ryanair+Clarifies+Customer+Entitlements+Sept+29.pdf

Interesting to see they now have "airline partners-in-disruption".

I eagerly await to see what, if any, UK airlines follow suit or, better put, are forced to follow suit.

devnull

CAR have issued a response to Ryanair's action here:
https://www.aviationreg.ie/news/update-on-ryanair-cancellations.808.html