Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

Lapmo_Dancer

devnull wrote: »

I can imagine Paul Tweed will be drafting up a few letters after that.

Ryanair staff would want to think very carefully about the IALPA's possible agenda in being involved in Ryanair's affairs more before getting too involved with them.

That’s a silly statement. If enough Ryanair guys join IALPA they would have the numbers to elect a Ryanair guy as president and an all Ryanair executive if that’s what they so wished.

Bob24

Looks like Belgian authorities are now taking Ryanair to court over the way they managed the cancellations:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/belgium-to-take-court-action-against-ryanair-over-cancelled-flights-1.3245312

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Comhrá

"Michael O'Leary pens impassioned plea to Ryanair pilots to get them to remain at the airline"

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/michael-oleary-pens-impassioned-plea-to-ryanair-pilots-to-get-them-to-remain-at-the-airline-36201239.html

Bob24

Comhra wrote: »

"Michael O'Leary pens impassioned plea to Ryanair pilots to get them to remain at the airline"

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/michael-oleary-pens-impassioned-plea-to-ryanair-pilots-to-get-them-to-remain-at-the-airline-36201239.html

Engaging with pilots is good and he can’t be criticised for doing that. But I’m not sure about the tone of the letter ... kind of talking to them like kids. For exemple what’s up with “this will we hope dissuade people leaving to join less financially secure airlines and damaging their careers”?
I doubt telling disgruntled staff that they don’t know what’s good for their own careers is going to help the discussions.

billy few mates

Bob24 wrote: »

Engaging with pilots is good and he can’t be criticised for doing that. But I’m not sure about the tone of the letter ... kind of talking to them like kinds. For exemple what’s up with “this will we hope dissuade people leaving to join less financially secure airlines and damaging their careers”?
I doubt telling disgruntled staff that they don’t know what’s good for their own careers is going to help the discussions.

Might be a great opportunity to draw a line under this crisis and get this company back where it should be as a world leader in the aviation industry. It looks like a lot of what he's offering is a lot of what the pilots have been looking for so they may be prepared to settle for this even if it's still not exactly what they were hoping for. The only way MOL can avoid letting a union in the door is by giving them everything the union promises and if this new offer does this then everyone wins.

PukkaStukka

billy few mates wrote: »

Might be a great opportunity to draw a line under this crisis and get this company back where it should be as a world leader in the aviation industry.

Indeed, in terms of all of the major KPI's like scale of business, passenger numbers, revenue etc, Ryanair most certainly is a world leader in aviation. However, its record on employee relations is a different matter and this is a significant player in the current situation. There needs to be a clear, meaningful and sustained shift on that front, and IMHO is a lot more than what is on offer currently.

Bob24

PukkaStukka wrote: »

Indeed, in terms of all of the major KPI's like scale of business, passenger numbers, revenue etc, Ryanair most certainly is a world leader in aviation. However, its record on employee relations is a different matter and this is a significant player in the current situation. There needs to be a clear, meaningful and sustained shift on that front, and IMHO is a lot more than what is on offer currently.

Yes, from what I can read basically what many pilots really want is to become employees rather than contractors who have to operate their own company and only get payments for hours spent flying.

I doubt this will be on offer though as it would probably mean changing Ryanair’s business model to a decent extend. So what’s been done by MOL is throwing some short term money at the issue to try and ease the situation. It might or might not work but it really is a short term patch as I guess he is betting (rightly or wrongly, I don’t know) that this is a once off crisis rather than a systemic issue and once he’s gone through it he can go back to the way he was doing business before.

Bob24

Comhra wrote: »

"Michael O'Leary pens impassioned plea to Ryanair pilots to get them to remain at the airline"

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/michael-oleary-pens-impassioned-plea-to-ryanair-pilots-to-get-them-to-remain-at-the-airline-36201239.html

The sincerity of the letter is being questioned by a pilot group: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/pilot-group-questions-o-leary-letter-pledging-better-pay-and-conditions-1.3246973

I think one issue O’Leary will face is that even assuming he really wants to improve things for his staff/contractors he has already lost their trust and good-will, so promises will have little effect to retain them and they will only consider what has actually been changed in their decisions to move on or not. So he’d better implement whatever he’s planning for very quickly.

devnull

Bob24 wrote: »

The sincerity of the letter is being questioned by a pilot group: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/pilot-group-questions-o-leary-letter-pledging-better-pay-and-conditions-1.3246973

Is it just me or is it a very strange state of affairs when a union who is claiming to represent staff from a company, is so interested in how much these changes would cost the employer? You'd think that combing through the costings is what someone on the opposite side would be concerned with to avoid giving them, not the unions who are wanting improved terms and conditions?

I've never heard of a union campaigning for increases and improvements to terms and then when something is offered basically countering that with how much is it going to cost the company, it's almost starts to feel that they are hoping that a deal is not reached, which is a strange position for a union representing works of a company to take in my book.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it though. Guess we will have to see what other sources say about this in several dozen other bases rather than a union which would be representing staff in only a couple or so bases, especially after the fact comments from the same source against the IAA got the Oireachtas Committee on Transport suspended.

LeChienMefiant

Always Getting Better for staff?

Stevek101

You'd really start to wonder just how many pilots are actually being vocal about this. Its probably been completely over blown by IALPA for the benefit of the legacys and not the pilots they supposedly represent. By the time they get around to going on strike they'll have retried, been out flung out to Kanuas or replaced.

devnull

Stevek101 wrote: »

You'd really start to wonder just how many pilots are actually being vocal about this. Its probably been completely over blown by IALPA for the benefit of the legacys and not the pilots they supposedly represent. By the time they get around to going on strike they'll have retried, been out flung out to Kanuas or replaced.

That's what I've thought all along and events of the last few days have just strengthened that. I reckon in my opinion that IALPA may be hoping for a strike and massive disruption as that would be the best outcome for their colleagues in other airline since Ryanair as a business has impacted them a lot.

Brennus335

devnull wrote: »

Is it just me or is it a very strange state of affairs when a union who is claiming to represent staff from a company, is so interested in how much these changes would cost the employer? You'd think that combing through the costings is what someone on the opposite side would be concerned with to avoid giving them, not the unions who are wanting improved terms and conditions?

I've never heard of a union campaigning for increases and improvements to terms and then when something is offered basically countering that with how much is it going to cost the company, it's almost starts to feel that they are hoping that a deal is not reached, which is a strange position for a union representing works of a company to take in my book.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it though. Guess we will have to see what other sources say about this in several dozen other bases rather than a union which would be representing staff in only a couple or so bases, especially after the fact comments from the same source against the IAA got the Oireachtas Committee on Transport suspended.

I assume you're referring to this quote from the article....

"“There are a lot of promises made in the letter but no details of what the cost of these promises will be.."


You've read it in the wrong context however.
IALPA is questioning what the cost of these "promises" will be to the pilot group in the long term. And not just in financial terms.

Management don't just give with one hand, without taking back double with the other.

These are they costs being referred too. Not costs to the company.

devnull

Brennus335 wrote: »

I assume you're referring to this quote from the article....

"“There are a lot of promises made in the letter but no details of what the cost of these promises will be.."

You've read it in the wrong context however.
IALPA is questioning what the cost of these "promises" will be to the pilot group in the long term. And not just in financial terms.

Management don't just give with one hand, without taking back double with the other.

These are they costs being referred too. Not costs to the company.

You read one context I read another, the spokesperson who got the Dail suspended earlier in the week was not exactly clear on this, perhaps though it's the Irish Times that put this quote in bad context or the spokesperson himself who was not very clear though, hard to tell for sure from this.

I wouldn't take what the IALPA say as reflective of the whole Ryanair pilot base, bearing in mind the spokesperson doesn't work for Ryanair, and is unlikely to have been able to get the overall opinion of Irish based pilots in the short time since the letter was issued, before taking into account that Irish based pilots would only represent a small percentage of the overall company workforce.

We will have to see what the reaction is from many different sources, countries and bases and give it a few days for staff to consider what O'Leary has said to really see what pilot reaction is to his proposals.

Irish Steve

It's long been a standing joke that IALPA is not the Irish Airline Pilot's Association, but the Irish Aer Lingus Pilot's Association.

I see very slow and reluctant change from the time a few years back where all of the unions at Dublin Airport were seriously militant and hostile towards the management of the organisations that their workers were working for, and in some cases, that hostility did nothing to improve or enhance the working conditions of the people involved, in some cases, all it did was improve the lot of the union shop stewards and union representatives to the detriment of the rest of the workers.

I can fully understand the hostility from Ryanair's management towards unions, when I look at some of the insane restrictive practises that were common at Aer Lingus, the cost implications of those practices were massive, and if Ryanair had been forced to tolerate them as well, the reduction in fares that have happened over time would have been significantly lower if the unions had been able to manipulate working conditions at Ryanair in the way that they did with Aer Lingus (and others).

Brennus335

devnull wrote: »

You read one context I read another, the spokesperson who got the Dail suspended earlier in the week was not exactly clear on this, perhaps though it's the Irish Times that put this quote in bad context or the spokesperson himself who was not very clear though, hard to tell for sure from this. .

Having been involved in these kinds of issues years, it's pretty clear in context to me.
Your reading of it is incorrect.

pilly

Brennus335 wrote:

Having been involved in these kinds of issues years, it's pretty clear in context to me. Your reading of it is incorrect.

I agree.

IngazZagni

devnull wrote: »

You read one context I read another, the spokesperson who got the Dail suspended earlier in the week was not exactly clear on this, perhaps though it's the Irish Times that put this quote in bad context or the spokesperson himself who was not very clear though, hard to tell for sure from this.
.

I believe the context is quite clear. These "promises" are worth nothing unless something is negotiated into a contract. Hence he's saying that pilots may suffer if they believe in this letter. Ryanair will backtrack on any promises as soon as they believe they have adequate numbers of pilots again. It needs to be in a legally binding contract. That's something they will be unlikely to agree to, even now.
There are hundreds of Ryanair pilots in IALPA so it's unfair to say Evan Cullen doesn't have an idea of what their intentions are.

devnull

IngazZagni wrote: »

There are hundreds of Ryanair pilots in IALPA so it's unfair to say Evan Cullen doesn't have an idea of what their intentions are.

Hundreds is still a pretty small percentage of the overall pilot base though when you consider that Ryanair are employing several thousand in dozens of bases across the whole of Europe though.

Do you really think that the IALPA have been able to touch base with most of their membership in Ryanair since Michael O'Leary issued the letter? Because I don't, it was only issued yesterday!

Bear in mind that Ryanair is currently in the process of taking legal proceedings against the IALPA, as was confirmed by Paul Tweed this week.

IngazZagni

devnull wrote: »

Hundreds is still a pretty small percentage of the overall pilot base though when you consider that Ryanair are employing several thousand in dozens of bases across the whole of Europe though.

Do you really think that the IALPA have been able to touch base with most of their membership in Ryanair since Michael O'Leary issued the letter? Because I don't, it was only issued yesterday!

Bear in mind that Ryanair is currently in the process of taking legal proceedings against the IALPA, as was confirmed by Paul Tweed this week.

It is a very high percentage of their Irish pilots. Keep in mind that many Italian pilots are members of ANPAC, Spanish pilots with SEPLA and Dutch pilots with VNV etc. They are all members of IFALPA so they can can connect with each other.

Letters mean nothing until written into a contract. I think everyone can agree to that. The unions are only providing support to the pilots, they are not taking the lead.

Ryanair has tried to sue unions many times over the past decade, that's nothing new and I can't comment on that for obvious reasons. I can comment on previous cases where Ryanair lost their fight against IALPA as well as REPA (Ryanair European Pilots Association). Many of you will remember what a judge said about a certain Eddie Wilson who is now the Chief People Officer at Ryanair. The judge called him a liar. He made false statements to the court. How can Ryanair pilots believe anything they say when this man is in charge?

"Ryanair and the truth make uncomfortable bedfellows".

http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IEHC/2010/H220.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/these-men-took-on-the-ryanair-chiefs-and-won-26374412.html

A319er

As the high court judge said , it's on record, MOL and the truth are infrequent bedfellows

MOL was always a slow learner

Fuel hedging
Customer service
The internet for bookings
Flying to airports actually in major cities
Etc etc

Just maybe he is maturing a little bit more and sees it's cheaper to be nicer
To staff all staff as well as customers.....

But I doubt it!

Bob24

Stevek101 wrote: »

You'd really start to wonder just how many pilots are actually being vocal about this. Its probably been completely over blown by IALPA for the benefit of the legacys and not the pilots they supposedly represent. By the time they get around to going on strike they'll have retried, been out flung out to Kanuas or replaced.

devnull wrote: »

That's what I've thought all along and events of the last few days have just strengthened that. I reckon in my opinion that IALPA may be hoping for a strike and massive disruption as that would be the best outcome for their colleagues in other airline since Ryanair as a business has impacted them a lot.

I'd say the simple fact that O'Leary sent that letter is clear evidence that a significant number of pilots have concerns and have left or are considering leaving.

It's clearly not something he would have done unless he absolutely had to and if it was just unions overhyping something which is in fact a minor concern he would on the contrary have mocked those unions and not sent the letter..

LeChienMefiant

Bob24 wrote: »

I'd say the simple fact that O'Leary sent that letter is clear evidence that a significant number of pilots have concerns and have left or are considering leaving.

It's clearly not something he would have done unless he absolutely had to and if it was just unions overhyping something which is in fact a minor concern he would on the contrary have mocked those unions and not sent the letter..

Well it's obviously a concern. Given the last few weeks.

Bob24

And yet another piece quoting very critical (and fairly detailed) comments from a Ryanair pilot: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-41384789

While taken individually these are of course not representative or the general opinion of the staff, they are starting to pile-up.

Mebuntu

Irish Steve wrote: »

It's long been a standing joke that IALPA is not the Irish Airline Pilot's Association, but the Irish Aer Lingus Pilot's Association.

I see very slow and reluctant change from the time a few years back where all of the unions at Dublin Airport were seriously militant and hostile towards the management of the organisations that their workers were working for, and in some cases, that hostility did nothing to improve or enhance the working conditions of the people involved, in some cases, all it did was improve the lot of the union shop stewards and union representatives to the detriment of the rest of the workers.

I can fully understand the hostility from Ryanair's management towards unions, when I look at some of the insane restrictive practises that were common at Aer Lingus, the cost implications of those practices were massive, and if Ryanair had been forced to tolerate them as well, the reduction in fares that have happened over time would have been significantly lower if the unions had been able to manipulate working conditions at Ryanair in the way that they did with Aer Lingus (and others).

Brilliant and 100% accurate post, Irish Steve. Aer Lingus were in handcuffs to the unions for decades and progress was virtually impossible and hopelessly slow. They had the power to close the airport and used it.

Aviation is an ever-changing industry and action has to be taken when required - not in 18 months time. IALPA craved the same power with Ryanair but failed to get it. They didn't get their way and and that's why they and, in particular, their president, who would have been steeped in the old ways, has led the concerted efforts as we have seen.

I can't wait for the resumption of the Joint Committee when the vindictiveness and long-simmering venom will all come out. We got a taste of it the other day.

Comhrá

"Ryanair's Chief Operations Officer has announced his resignation.

Ryanair today confirmed that Michael Hickey, its Chief Operations Officer has decided ro resign.

His resignation will come into effect at the end of October."


http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanairs-chief-operations-officer-announces-resignation-36204289.html

CoisFharraige

My parents used to own a well-known post-production media company here. They are lovely people, a lovely businessman and woman, and they did very well. The staff absolutely loved working there, were paid well and on time, had days off whenever they had family business (within reason), and all the normal entitlements anybody would expect. They had a very large workforce when compared with other similar post-prod companies.
The biggest project they ever undertook had a budget well into the many millions of €. They hired in 100s of extras, extra cameramen - the lot. These new crew brought with them some horrible union reps one day, and asked to come onto the live-set. They were granted access, and submitted complaints because they didn't have a health and safety rep for some random section which in some loophole they found was needed because the crews weren't from the company, and weren't familiar with procedures. The union shut the whole set down, the project crashed, and the company lost millions and millions of €. Shy of 50 workers were left without a job within a month.

Unions, in the words of my father, 'are a load of f*cking b*ll*cks'. The reps are the whingiest people you can ever meet when they're looking for such unnecessary things, you'd wonder why on earth some of the IALPA reps are more eager to negotiate than the FR drivers themselves, and APA? That's a another story...

Of course people need representatives, but I wish some of the APA and IALPA representatives would get their heads out of the very high cloud ceiling and into the bloody cockpit. They do not have the FR guys' needs in their heads, they want to screw over any company they can get at.

If only Michael was good to the pilots and set a bit of an example to management. I wish he would be able to realise that he could be so proud with a drop in profits, yet still own the largest airline in the world, and knowing his pilots are some of the best out there (which they are), are getting home safe to their families every night in a base that isn't as far away from their home as possible. It would be the best airline to work for, without a shadow of a doubt.

Bob24

Unions aer a tough one. For sure many union leaders are disconnected from reality and would prefer damaging long term prospects of a company for short term gains which in the long run is not good for employees.

So I used to also be only critical about them and not understand the point of having them ... but that is until I worked for a (fairly large) employer which took some liberties with terms of employment and didn't deliver certain things I (and all the rest of the staff) would have reasonably expected based on the contract of employement. I think individual actions would have been difficult and taken pretty long, but the union there took the company to court and fairly quickly got management to change course when it became obvious they would lose the case. I am not a member of the union but I have to say on that occasion I was glad it existed and I understood what it could be useful for.

The Rape of Lucretia

Comhra wrote: »

"Ryanair's Chief Operations Officer has announced his resignation.

Ryanair today confirmed that Michael Hickey, its Chief Operations Officer has decided ro resign.

Wow. Thats quite a resignation/sacking. Hard to know where the blame for the fiasco lies: how much is O'Leary and his personal style and direction, how much Hickey making a major booboo, or how much was by anonymous underlings in the planning in and scheduling department (presumably squeezed for productivity and effort as on their own wages as pilots and cabin crew).
Still. Its a decisive and quick action.