Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

Bob24

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

What is the criteria for a pilot to become a direct employee of Ryanair? I would have thought a captain with 10 years at the airline like Imelda Comer wouldn't still be a contractor? Is she not exactly the kind of pilot that Ryanair need right now?

I don't have an answer but that is a good question.

Also it would be interesting to know what percentage of pilots are contractors and employees (I assume very few employees but I haven't' seen figures).

devnull

I would imagine that offers of direct employment are based on more criteria than just length of service

Bob24

In this case it is more being a captain than the actual number of years of experience which would make her attractive to the company (though of course there is a relationship between being a captain and having some experience).

But it would be interesting to know more about their policies regarding the employee / contractor split if anyone knows. I suspect where people are based plays a big role and the (probably small minority) of employee pilots they have are likely concentrated on just a few bases to keep HR management simpler, pick what Ryanair sees as the most lenient local employment laws, and also not have permanent staff in bases which are small and could potentially be closed or see very limited traffic.

devnull

Bob24 wrote: »

It's more being a captain than the actual number of years of experience which would make her attractive to the company (though of course there is a relationship between being a captain and having some experience).

I have worked in private companies with a mixture of contractors and full time employees at various levels of the company and the decision to hire someone directly is dependent on a minimum length of service being met and if a certain level of performance and attendance is met. Outside the public sector, nothing is gained on length of service alone these days regardless of position.

If the contractor ticks all the boxes, they may be considered for full time employment within the company if the HR Team deems that they would be suitable candidate to do so, although sometimes there are excellent candidates that will not get a full time contract because they happen to be a few people who are also in the running who are outstanding.

There's also the fact that they're probably is a certain percentage split between FTEs and contractors that the company want to keep and as such if they reach that quota for FTEs there will be no more converts to Direct Employment until a need arises to meet that quota, this is how it was in a company I used to work for which was a company who was dependent on multi-national contracts.

LiamaDelta

Does anybody know how many (if any) of Ryanair pilots are contractors and how many are employees and when O'Leary refers to 'base agreements' and 'negotiations' with pilots is he referring to employee pilots only or both employees and contractors. It seems to me that he uses the terms interchangeably whenever it suits him, without defining who he is talking about. Are contractor pilots covered by these base agreements or just the contracts they signed. OR possibly the base agreements are the same as the contractor contracts just without the ability to renegotiate.

LeChienMefiant

NH2013 wrote: »

Is that not exactly Ryanair's problem though at the minute, that their pilots; the majority of whom are contractors, are deciding to "Stop being contractors", and leaving for pastures new in other airlines where they see themselves being treated better?

This in turn resulting in Ryanair's inability to properly crew flights for the next 6 months and the ensuing cancellation of 400,000 flights so far.

Should Ryanair not be trying to find out why these pilots are all leaving by listening to them and engaging with them, and working on the internal issues and areas that need to be focused on in order to retain their pilots and continue with their expansion plans.

I think it's implicit in Ryanair's approach that they don't care. They will do what they believe they need to do to resolve the issue. Clearly there is a mismatch in expectations. Let's see how that plays out.

NH2013

LiamaDelta wrote: »

Does anybody know how many (if any) of Ryanair pilots are contractors and how many are employees and when O'Leary refers to 'base agreements' and 'negotiations' with pilots is he referring to employee pilots only or both employees and contractors. It seems to me that he uses the terms interchangeably whenever it suits him, without defining who he is talking about. Are contractor pilots covered by these base agreements or just the contracts they signed. OR possibly the base agreements are the same as the contractor contracts just without the ability to renegotiate.

Ratio used to be about 80% Contractor, 20% Direct Employee, Current ratio is moving more towards direct employment, ratio currently stands about 70% Contractor to 30% direct employee I believe.

From what I understand the offers MOL is making at the moment are aimed at direct employees, not contractors, but am open to correction on that.

billy few mates

737max wrote: »

You are bull****ting there. Contractors are Contractors and while a company may liase with them what they contract to do is governed by a contract. If contractors wish to be employees then they should apply to be employees. If a comany wants employees then it makes vacancies for employees.
If Contractors expect collective bargaining then they will need to stop being Contractors.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is this not part of the problem?
Is one of the demands the pilot group are making not for those pilots who are contractors but who wish to be FTEs to be allowed to do so?

snowflaker

Ryanair paid my €250 today!

737max

billy few mates wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but is this not part of the problem?
Is one of the demands the pilot group are making not for those pilots who are contractors but who wish to be FTEs to be allowed to do so?

Maybe Ryanair is happy with its current ratios and where have the pilots said they'd be happy with the drop in take home pay to become employees(because that is what will happen). Do they really want to be paying higher rates of USC and PRSI when their ideal career is as a captain for another airline which is probably located in another country.

billy few mates

snowflaker wrote: »

Ryanair paid my €250 today!

Cool, you could get yourself a nice weekend away on a cheap Ryanair flight for...Er.... forget it...

NH2013

737max wrote: »

Maybe Ryanair is happy with its current ratios and where have the pilots said they'd be happy with the drop in take home pay to become employees(because that is what will happen). Do they really want to be paying higher rates of USC and PRSI when their ideal career is as a captain for another airline which is probably located in another country.

From the sounds of it that's exactly what they're looking for, permanent employment paying taxes in the country they work in and things like sick pay, pension contributions, social insurance payments to the government and a stable base allocation policy. For the most part it seems like all that they're asking for should be cost neutral to Ryanair.

billy few mates

737max wrote: »

Maybe Ryanair is happy with its current ratios and where have the pilots said they'd be happy with the drop in take home pay to become employees(because that is what will happen). Do they really want to be paying higher rates of USC and PRSI when their ideal career is as a captain for another airline which is probably located in another country.

I didn't say they should make all contractors FTEs. Some people have no desire to be FTEs and are quite happy to remain as contractors, the problem is those contractors who would prefer to be directly employed, with all the negatives and positives that this entails, this is one of the issues that I believe the pilot group want addressed.

snowflaker

billy few mates wrote: »

Cool, you could get yourself a nice weekend away on a cheap Ryanair flight for...Er.... forget it...

I did, just 3 hours late!

selassie

Today I got my flight rescheduled on the 12th of November coming home from Valencia, was originally at 10pm at night now coming home at 2:40pm. Raging because the trip was specifically booked to see the Moto gp race on that afternoon at 2:00pm.

Kuva

I Am booking a week away in a few days, has this been sorted yet or are they still cancelling flights?

billy few mates

Kuva wrote: »

I Am booking a week away in a few days, has this been sorted yet or are they still cancelling flights?

How important is this trip to you...?

basill

A contractor is a contractor who contracts to deliver a service and is free to not renew their contact; that is their labour negotiating tool.
An employee is an employee.

This is the core issue for Ryanair and has been for many years. Hence why other jurisdictions tax departments have been showing a keen interest in their "labour" practices. The employee vs. contractor argument will roll on. Interesting he is offering permanent direct employee contracts now. One might presume that he realises the game is up with contractors.

JCX BXC

Kuva wrote: »

I Am booking a week away in a few days, has this been sorted yet or are they still cancelling flights?

Chances are no cancellations. They've cancelled flights now in advance. Chances of a repeat of the cancellations with 3/4days advance due crew issues are so small they're not really worth conversation.

Minister

I flew to Southampton with Flybe instead of Fr to Bristol last week. Worked a treat. Aer Lingus and Flybe for me to UK for next two trips between now and 1st Jan. Bye bye Ryanair and good riddance!

Bob24

Stansted crew seem to have refused the pay deal offered by Ryanair and apparently there are talks of a possible strike in Italy at the end of the month: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-16/ryanair-s-biggest-pilot-base-is-said-to-reject-peace-offering

LeChienMefiant

Peter Bellew to re-join Ryanair as COO..
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/peter-bellew-to-rejoin-ryanair-as-coo-36235519.html

Seems like a big deal.

Bob24

Bob24 wrote: »

Stansted crew seem to have refused the pay deal offered by Ryanair and apparently there are talks of a possible strike in Italy at the end of the month: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-16/ryanair-s-biggest-pilot-base-is-said-to-reject-peace-offering

Same outcome in Madrid: https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1017/913049-ryanair/

On more occurrence and I’ll call it a pattern.

LiamaDelta

Interesting that this 'negotiation' is with contractors rather than employees. Somewhat clarifies the earlier confusion. Have to say reading some of the newspaper reports and O'Learys reported comments, I think he is way out of his depth here and should hand it over to someone else to both speak and do the negotiations. He doesn't realise that he has the weaker hand and is still speaking in threatening tones saying that if they don't accept it now they stay on the same and that they should accept it immediately! If I were a pilot it would just harden my attitude.

flaneur

I think I'll be giving them a skip. I don't really want to be stranded somewhere.

Comhrá

flaneur wrote: »

I think I'll be giving them a skip. I don't really want to be stranded somewhere.

At this point I would go with EI or whoever if there's an alternative. Probably little risk of FR cancelling in the short term anyway but I'd prefer not take a chance with them.

I suspect if there was an issue of a small number of FR cancellations imminent, they'd stay sthum about crew shortages and give some other bs excuse.

billy few mates

Comhra wrote: »

flaneur wrote: »

I think I'll be giving them a skip. I don't really want to be stranded somewhere.

At this point I would go with EI or whoever if there's an alternative. Probably little risk of FR cancelling in the short term anyway but I'd prefer not take a chance with them.

I suspect if there was an issue of a small number of FR cancellations imminent, they'd stay sthum about crew shortages and give some other bs excuse.

People will pay a premium to fly with one of their competitors for the same reason that people pay for travel insurance, they just don't want to take a risk on anything happening when they travel.
I haven't flown on Ryanair since this crisis started and I don't plan to until I'm convinced they've sorted it. I've taken many flights with some of the other airlines since and every flight I've been on has been completely full and on some routes fully booked for days either side of the days I wanted to fly.

Colsin91

I was pretty irate about their lack of apology and general handling of the situation. I vowed never to fly Ryanair again. But then last weekend, I was booking flights to Budapest. I just couldn't justify paying the surplus to their competitors. I really can't beat their prices. I stay strong in my principles, until I have to put my money to where my mouth is

Bob24

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanair-contract-pilots-at-stansted-warned-over-pay-deal-36244135.html

Ryanair can’t help using a divide and conquer as well as threat/blackmail strategy.

But at this stage I think it’s became counter-productive for them and when I read that piece I wonder what exactly they were trying to achieve here (besides alienating full time and contract pilots even more).

LiamaDelta

Bob24 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanair-contract-pilots-at-stansted-warned-over-pay-deal-36244135.html

Ryanair can’t help using a divide and conquer as well as threat/blackmail strategy.

But at this stage I think it’s became counter-productive for them and when I read that piece I wonder what exactly they were trying to achieve here (besides alienating full time and contract pilots even more).

Definitely, Ryanair are way out of their depth at this stage - they are not even negotiating, they are offering something and giving an ultimatum for its acceptance. From what I've heard the pilots are up for fighting this one, many of them would like to stay in Ireland and with Ryanair but are not prepared to put up with the conditions that Ryanair are continuing to offer.