Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

JCX BXC

View Profile wrote: »

Irrelevant for customers if FR pilots are unionised. At least if pilots are happy, the company can finally retain staff and stop cancelling flights.

If customers regain faith in the airline, ticket sales increase.
More money for greedy shareholders!

How is it irrelevant? Look at how unions have destroyed Iarnrod Eireann and Bus Eireann, if unions come in they will cause a massive increase in costs at Ryanair over time, and who's going to pay for these? The customers.

By all means make the staff happier, but unions are a bad idea.

View Profile

In fairness, due to the complete lack of fair negotiation on Ryanair's part, the only option left for pilots is to unionise.

Ryanair have created this monster by being so pig headed and stingy.

Pilots don't necessarily want a union but O'Leary's inaction has forced their hands.

His house of cards is starting to fall.

Bazzy

JCX BXC wrote: »

How is it irrelevant? Look at how unions have destroyed Iarnrod Eireann and Bus Eireann, if unions come in they will cause a massive increase in costs at Ryanair over time, and who's going to pay for these? The customers.

By all means make the staff happier, but unions are a bad idea.

The IE & BE are being funded a lot by the government Ryanair is a private company


Also Ryanair wont recognise the union so I cant see it amounting to much, If they go on strike they'll replace the contractors and sue them for breach of contract ( Harsh but it's what they'll do)

None of these pilots walked in blind if they didnt like it then should have went elsewhere

They got sympathy at the start and had O Leary over a barrel I think the tables have turned slightly in his favour and if he's backed into a corner he'll react

Bazzy

View Profile wrote: »

In fairness, due to the complete lack of fair negotiation on Ryanair's part, the only option left for pilots is to unionise.

Ryanair have created this monster by being so pig headed and stingy.

Pilots don't necessarily want a union but O'Leary's inaction has forced their hands.

His house of cards is starting to fall.

He engaged with them and put an offer on the table and told them no more.... hardly inaction


They are now getting more than they signed up for when they took contracts ?? How have Ryanair created that monster?

if the pilots can work 900 hours a year thats what they should be working every year , If I was scheduling I would make sure they worked the 900 hours each and every year,

These are highly educated people who in my opinion have become whingers they need to accept the facts and move on

Ryanair wont recognise a union so it will be as useful as a chocolate fireguard

Fred Swanson

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Bazzy

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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A good load of staff currently on the rosters are contractors they wont go on strike or rock the boat too much.

I would LOVE to see the contracts they signed you can be sure Ryanair are well covered

Fred Swanson

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NH2013

Bazzy wrote: »

A good load of staff currently on the rosters are contractors they wont go on strike or rock the boat too much.

I would LOVE to see the contracts they signed you can be sure Ryanair are well covered

Ryanair might be covered legally if their contractors just walk out, but from a PR point of view, and a logistical point of view, the majority of their flights would be cancelled if 65% of their pilot body walked out, the training to replace them would take years, and the PR fall out would be nuclear, by the time they were finished chasing the contractors through the courts to force them to return to work the airline would be well gone under.

View Profile

Bazzy wrote:

if the pilots can work 900 hours a year thats what they should be working every year , If I was scheduling I would make sure they worked the 900 hours each and every year,

Just as well you don't have a clue about aviation then.
900 hours is a limit not a target for airlines.
Pilots work in a very safety focused industry. Management need to realise that and stop trying to squeeze every aspect of the business in order to gain more profit.

Ryanair has been squeezing the staff dry for decades and it's finally biten them on the ass.

The company could go on to great success and profits for decades more but only if they treat staff with respect. And that's staff in every department.

Yeah it might cost the company 100 million a year, but that's a tiny price to pay for a stable company that's attractive for all staff.

Bob24

Bazzy wrote: »

He engaged with them and put an offer on the table and told them no more.... hardly inaction

It’s probably a case of too little, too late.

This has been building up for years with no attempt to adress frustrations until this year, and it is not just a matter short term money but goes across all aspects of the company’s employer/employee relashionship.

Bazzy

View Profile wrote: »

Just as well you don't have a clue about aviation then.
900 hours is a limit not a target for airlines.
Pilots work in a very safety focused industry. Management need to realise that and stop trying to squeeze every aspect of the business in order to gain more profit.

Ryanair has been squeezing the staff dry for decades and it's finally biten them on the ass.

The company could go on to great success and profits for decades more but only if they treat staff with respect. And that's staff in every department.

Yeah it might cost the company 100 million a year, but that's a tiny price to pay for a stable company that's attractive for all staff.

This is the way I look at it.

If I was a pilot I have the potential earnings for 900 hours per year now I havent a clue what that rate is and I am not going to speculate

I would want to earn as close to 900 hours pay as practicably possible thats my earning power for the year.

If i'm self employed I would buy a commercial vehicle that would be written off against tax , so would my mobile phone bill , my diesel in vehicle and all other expenses encountered in my duties

It could be argued that the pilot is only paying when they are flying so a small rent on a home office for flight planning etc would also be allowed

Or an employee would have the benefit of PRSI , employment law etc

So its what suits a persons circumstances better

I know pilots work in a safety focused environment and I don't for a second believe any of them would take a risk in any shape or form that would compromise anyones safety, them stripes on their shoulders carry a big weight I fully appreciate that.

If Ryanair have to fork out an additional 100 million it wont be them or the shareholders paying it, it'll be the bums on the seats that are joe public will fund that not the company.

Bazzy

Bob24 wrote: »

It’s probably a case of too little, too late.

This has been building up for years with no attempt to adress frustrations until this year, and it is not just a matter short term money but goes across all aspects of the company’s employer/employee relashionship.

Well one thing that stands out to me about this is that Michael O'Leary has gone very very quiet whereas previously he'd have dressed as a pilot or a plane and ran around the pilots meeting climbing on chairs for the cameras and the publicity

I can't see Ryanair giving them much more and to be honest I cant see the pilots going on strike, I'd imagine a lot of them are paying back loans they had to take out to get qualified

But I can't see O Leary high fiving and hugging them in the very near future!!!

Fattes

View Profile wrote: »

Irrelevant for customers if FR pilots are unionised. At least if pilots are happy, the company can finally retain staff and stop cancelling flights.

If customers regain faith in the airline, ticket sales increase.
More money for greedy shareholders!

Booking are up right now! They have stopped cancelling flights. So currently they have increased ticket sales and stopped cancelling flights, which invalidates the point you made.

Their whole market is based on low cost no frills. Any increase in costs to the customer is a bigger risk to their market share than nearly any other factor

View Profile

Bazzy wrote:

I can't see Ryanair giving them much more and to be honest I cant see the pilots going on strike, I'd imagine a lot of them are paying back loans they had to take out to get qualified

Yes they are paying loans and rent and mortgages. And that's exactly why they are balloting for industrial action. They want proper industry standard pay. Proper contracts with a guaranteed salary!

Pilot Councils have now been formed in Ireland, Portugal, Germany, Sweden and Italy.
Spain, Holland and Belgium are expected to finalise their Councils in the next few days.
This means these 30 odd bases have pilots commiting to industrial action.

Yes, OLeary has been uncharacteristically quiet. I imagine the Board have advised him to keep his big mouth shut in order to prevent upsetting more staff.

This is an unprecedented situation for Ryanair. Never before has the pilot body been so united and they're all aware of managements usual tricks and empty promises.
Pilots want proper change and they won't accept O'Leary's current pitiful offering!

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https://youtu.be/l1GvBXx61CM

O'Leary agreeing to recognise a pilot union if sufficient numbers vote for it.

Bazzy

View Profile wrote: »

Yes they are paying loans and rent and mortgages. And that's exactly why they are balloting for industrial action. They want proper industry standard pay. Proper contracts with a guaranteed salary!

Pilot Councils have now been formed in Ireland, Portugal, Germany, Sweden and Italy.
Spain, Holland and Belgium are expected to finalise their Councils in the next few days.
This means these 30 odd bases have pilots commiting to industrial action.

Yes, OLeary has been uncharacteristically quiet. I imagine the Board have advised him to keep his big mouth shut in order to prevent upsetting more staff.

This is an unprecedented situation for Ryanair. Never before has the pilot body been so united and they're all aware of managements usual tricks and empty promises.
Pilots want proper change and they won't accept O'Leary's current pitiful offering!

But they had these loans and rent/mortgages when they took the job or got them after they took the job on the terms and conditions they we're offered so I dont see why all of a sudden these are not good enough???

A pilot has an earning capability of 900 hours per year i'd be getting as close to that as I could

With that many pilots on the books its going to be very very hard to keep them all happy

They offered them whatever base they wanted ( This was one of the big problems I believe) and they gave them more money.

The industry is not going to change over night to keep the pilots happy bums on seats is what keeps it going and the cheaper the flight the more seats sold.

I hand on my heart cannot see the pilots winning on this one.

Pilot Councils are an excellent idea and once a month or quarter they should have a meeting with management to give feedback on what issues they have in their own bases and see if the rest of the countries are having the same issues

Thats a BIG difference to a union

And in my experience the boys/girls who put there names down to head these up are not the best people to be representing you or your interests to the company.

NIMAN

Bob24 wrote: »

No one can tell. Summer service will be their next test as traffic will increase again (while it is reduced in the winter), and they will have had to sort their pilot numbers by then. Of course they will aim at doing that as it is in their interest, but will they manage is difficult to answer.

Do they offer significant savings to book so early for flights during a busy period anyway?

I booked for next summer with Easyjet out of Belfast


Let's just hope now they keep their staff happy.

ArnieSilvia

Bazzy wrote:

If i'm self employed I would buy a commercial vehicle that would be written off against tax , so would my mobile phone bill , my diesel in vehicle and all other expenses encountered in my duties

Bazzy wrote:

It could be argued that the pilot is only paying when they are flying so a small rent on a home office for flight planning etc would also be allowed

Forget about those, revenue doesn't see it this way, none of what you mentioned is allowed anymore apart from phone (15 a month in my case). Only relocation tax credit these days.

View Profile

Bazzy wrote:

But they had these loans and rent/mortgages when they took the job or got them after they took the job on the terms and conditions they we're offered so I dont see why all of a sudden these are not good enough???

It's not all of a sudden. Terms and conditions and pay have only been disimproving.
Many pilots began in the airline at a time where they didn't have to pay for their own water, tea n coffee, uniforms, recurrent training, medicals, etc.
These conditions have been eaten away by MOL.

Bazzy

View Profile wrote: »

It's not all of a sudden. Terms and conditions and pay have only been disimproving.
Many pilots began in the airline at a time where they didn't have to pay for their own water, tea n coffee, uniforms, recurrent training, medicals, etc.
These conditions have been eaten away by MOL.

Water and tea and coffee is ridiculous I fully agree that should be free that was some bean counter putting a pen through a line

Uniforms - Id be 50/50 on this it could be argued that the I could use the uniform elsewhere if I went working with another company etc

How much would the training/medical cost a year and do other airlines cover that for their staff?

Bazzy

ArnieSilvia wrote: »

Forget about those, revenue doesn't see it this way, none of what you mentioned is allowed anymore apart from phone (15 a month in my case). Only relocation tax credit these days.

I'd be having a fight with revenue on this

From what i understand you contract yourself to a limited company from a limited company you are a shareholder in is this correct?

Bob24

Bazzy wrote: »

Uniforms - Id be 50/50 on this it could be argued that the I could use the uniform elsewhere if I went working with another company etc

For an airline pilot it clearly couldn't.

Fattes

Bob24 wrote: »

For an airline pilot it clearly couldn't.

Regardless it is something the airline would have to write off if the pilot left as there is no Garantuee it can be used again or will be returned

Bob24

Fattes wrote: »

Regardless it is something the airline would have to write off if the pilot left as there is no Garantuee it can be used again or will be returned

Yes both are true. It is a required "tool" for the job which can't be reused by either party if employment ends, and regularly needs to be replaced. So at the end of the day it is an operational expense required to carry out the job rather than an asset for any party.

People can discuss whether they find it OK or not for that expense to be covered by the employee, but my point was that it is incorrect to say the uniform is an asset the pilot acquires and can reuse in a future job.

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Bazzy wrote:

Uniforms - Id be 50/50 on this it could be argued that the I could use the uniform elsewhere if I went working with another company etc

Bazzy wrote:

How much would the training/medical cost a year and do other airlines cover that for their staff?

Uniforms are airline specific so you couldn't really do that.

Yes, nearly every other airline in the world pays for a pilots recurrent training, medical, uniform etc.
They also pay for "loss of licence insurance", pay you for standby duties, pay you if your flight is delayed beyond the original flight schedule, pay you to attend staff meetings, pay you whenever you are carrying out any duties on behalf of the company.

Ryanair does not.

Bazzy

View Profile wrote: »

Uniforms are airline specific so you couldn't really do that.

Yes, nearly every other airline in the world pays for a pilots recurrent training, medical, uniform etc.
They also pay for "loss of licence insurance", pay you for standby duties, pay you if your flight is delayed beyond the original flight schedule, pay you to attend staff meetings, pay you whenever you are carrying out any duties on behalf of the company.

Ryanair does not.

So roughly

How much would the training and the medical be per annum?

I'm struggling also with the revenue not classifying ye as self employed all of that would of course become a business cost and you could deduct the cost of that as a business expense


Being honest i've worked with/in various companies that didn't pay you to attend meetings and if you we're delayed in traffic after work etc you didnt get paid for it , i'm not for a second comparing the tasks that are being completed but just my experience

L1011

Bazzy wrote: »

I'm struggling also with the revenue not classifying ye as self employed all of that would of course become a business cost and you could deduct the cost of that as a business expense

You do realise that that doesn't make the cost vanish? You're still down ~50% of it.

Bazzy wrote: »

Being honest i've worked with/in various companies that didn't pay you to attend meetings and if you we're delayed in traffic after work etc you didnt get paid for it , i'm not for a second comparing the tasks that are being completed but just my experience

There is zero validity in comparing commuting delays to the issues here.

If a salaried employee is being required to attend meetings outside of working hours they should be counted as part of their working hours. Overtime doesn't exist in most companies but compulsion to work beyond contracted hours is questionable at best.

I suspect this type of absolutely fictional "self employment" has very little lifespan left - the state loses too much employer PRSI from it for starters.

Fred Swanson

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Bazzy

L1011 wrote: »

You do realise that that doesn't make the cost vanish? You're still down ~50% of it.



There is zero validity in comparing commuting delays to the issues here.

Very aware of how the tax system works what i cant understand is how these guys seem to be in limbo

They are either employed by the company paying PRSI or are self employed

View Profile spoke about a flight delay i'm equating this to a traffic delay or a delay with something outside your control which can happen from time to time

View Profile

Bazzy wrote:

View Profile spoke about a flight delay i'm equating this to a traffic delay or a delay with something outside your control which can happen from time to time

Example: Scheduled flight from Dublin to London return. Roughly 3 hours total flight time. Therefore crew (pilots and cabin crew) receive 3 hours pay.

However, on landing in London there is a delay of 8 hours before flight can depart to Dublin.
So crew work a 12 hour duty but receive only 3 hours pay.

And this happens quite often.