Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

MoeJay

None of which clarifies the claimed total incapability of a having a meeting prior to Wednesday when they had plenty of time to be on the radio today....

I do not believe the Ryanair pilots are as ill-informed as you believe.

Nothing is as ever as simple as it appears in all these types of situations...

L1011

Cancelling the strike without a meeting only for the risk of the offer of recognition to be withdrawn when it's too late to arrange further action until a traditionally extremely quiet period is something I would not want any union I was in to agree to do.

Yes, that's hypothetical but so is absolutely everything else being suggested here.

Mebuntu

devnull wrote: »

The simple fact is if they still strike they are sticking two fingers up to the public and I'm sure Ryanair will not hesitate to point out this kind of charade.

Spot on. The public will have woken up this morning - "Ryanair are doing what? That's fantastic, strike will be called off, so, Phew!"

Then, on the way home this evening, they hear that the unions have reneged.

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

Cancelling the strike without a meeting only for the risk of the offer of recognition to be withdrawn when it's too late to arrange further action until a traditionally extremely quiet period is something I would not want any union I was in to agree to do.

So you'd agree to IMPACT holding a strike based on a Ballot paper that appeared to say the staff would strike in three circumstances, where none of those circumstances have occurred?

A reminder at the letter which was sent to Ryanair



It would appear they no longer have a valid mandate to strike and I would assume would have to hold another ballot?

L1011

Stating recognition != actual recognition. The refusal to meet is the issue here.

Mebuntu

L1011 wrote: »

The refusal to meet is the issue here.

They haven't refused to meet.

Too much emphasis is being placed on the "necessity" for a Christmas strike. If Ryanair were to renege after Christmas a more widespread strike would be called that would do much more damage.

Bob24

Plus some people here should stop pretending pilots are clueless idiots who don’t know what they want and are being manipulated.

If there is a strike it will be because employees are still unhappy and not convinced by what they are hearing. No one is forcing them to strike.

Unions might or might not have an agenda but the responsibility for the current situation is not hteirs and goes way back before their involvement. Ryanair has pretty much had issues with employee relashionship and satisfaction forever, and they failed to recognise this has been escalating this year and they have been losing grip on the situation (not being able to deliver all their scheduled flights because too many pilots resigned should have been a first warning sign that something was wrong, and receiving multiple communications from unhappy pilot groups in the past two months should have been another one, but they chose to behave as if there was no issue to the point where they actually offered their staff for unions to pick-up as pilots saw litarelly no other option).

devnull

Bob24 wrote: »

Plus some people here should stop pretending pilots are clueless idiots who don’t know what they want and are being manipulated.

Some people should also stop being naive and think that staff are not manipulated when they are being represented by staff from a competitor, because as I've outlined, I've seen it happen at close quarters and that is why if I was Ryanair or any other company I would only agree to meet such union on the basis that it was represented fully by my own employees.

Having staff from a competitor being involved in your business is ALWAYS a bad thing because it allows them to be privy to inner workings of the business and information that non employees would otherwise not be privy to.

If there is a strike it will be because employees are still unhappy and not convinced by what they are hearing. No one is forcing them to strike.

If that's the case then the IALPA should spend the free time that they have today as they are not meeting Ryanair to establish a fully Ryanair staff based committee, they have the time clearly so why not do it? That will straight away kill any argument about an agenda or otherwise, what is stopping them if they don't have an agenda?

The simple fact is that if you have a group of people who are connected to one company trying to represent people who are connected to their biggest rival there is a conflict of interest there. Such types of conflicts of interest have been abused in the past in other companies including ones that I have worked for, where the staff in one company are deliberately leading the staff of another company down a path to benefit their own company and damage the rival company.

I'm not just saying I think it happens, I know it happens, I've seen it happen and ultimately a lot of people lost their jobs because of this fact and that is why Ryanair are completely right to say they will not deal with people from their competitors because such people have a conflict of interest, especially considering the history of the IALPA and current defamation proceedings against them which are ongoing in court.

IngazZagni

devnull wrote: »

It would appear they no longer have a valid mandate to strike and I would assume would have to hold another ballot?

Absolutely on the contrary. Nowhere have Ryanair said they WILL recognise unions. Only that they will enter negotiations about Union recognition so the ballot still stands in my opinion.

It's completely unfair for you to make assumptions about what's happening behind the scenes. How do you know?

This is Ryanair we are talking about here and I think the vast majority would be skeptical about this. Going from threatening their staff over pay and conditions one day to a 180 degree u turn the next sounds suspicious to me. There is absolutely no reason why Ryanair management can't sit down with non competitor airline IALPA or IMPACT reps by Tuesday and until they do the pilots are absolutely right to continue this strike action.

Blut2

Mebuntu wrote: »

Spot on. The public will have woken up this morning - "Ryanair are doing what? That's fantastic, strike will be called off, so, Phew!"

Then, on the way home this evening, they hear that the unions have reneged.

What the public thinks doesn't really matter to the pilots in this case, though. They're not working for a publicly funded body akin to CIE. So public opinion about the righteousness of their cause doesn't matter to them. Their sole goal is to convince Ryanair that better working conditions are required and justified, or there will be severe financial consequences due to strikes for the airline.

Ryanair not being able to meet until next Wednesday is quite clearly a delay/fudging tactic, and the pilots are well within their rights to give Ryanair an ultimatum of a sooner engagement and binding recognition of a union or the strike will be going ahead.

devnull

IngazZagni wrote: »

Absolutely on the contrary. Nowhere have Ryanair said they WILL recognise unions. Only that they will enter negotiations about Union recognition so the ballot still stands in my opinion.

Yet in their press release is headlined 'Ryanair Agrees To Recognise Pilot Unions'

Considering the fact they've issued a statement both on their own website and per the regulatory channels and via the Stock Exchange I doubt it's something they are going to be able to back down on.

It's completely unfair for you to make assumptions about what's happening behind the scenes. How do you know?

I'm merely giving my point of view and speaking from experience when dealing with issues of a similar ilk in the past in my own professional life from both sides of the coin. A number of people will have very different opinions and will come to different conclusions, of course, we don't have to agree, I'm just simply having my say.

There is absolutely no reason why Ryanair management can't sit down with non competitor airline IALPA or IMPACT reps by Tuesday and until they do the pilots are absolutely right to continue this strike action.

Unfortunately all signs from the IALPA have been that they were willing to go into meetings without having had chance to have meaningful conversations with their staff since the news broke of a change in tack from Ryanair this morning

There is nothing to suggest the IALPA leadership staff with links to competitor airlines announcing they will stand aside. They are free to make a statement at any point that they will be standing aside to allow a committee of Ryanair staff members to represent their colleagues but as of yet there is no indication that they are going to do soo despite the fact this would be in their Ryanair members interests.

The only reason I can see that the IALPA has not done so is because that the agenda of the IALPA as a whole comes before that of Ryanair staff they claim to be representing.

L1011

You are going to need to do a bit better than just guessing, constantly, at agendas you have no way of proving exist.

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

You are going to need to do a bit better than just guessing, constantly, at agendas you have no way of proving exist.

I doubt that all the people outside the company I worked in where a whole load of people lost their job because of agendas by a union with connections to a bigger competitor are able to prove that they exist, they still did though.

I'm not saying that there is 100% certainly an agenda at play here, but my dealings with unions on both sides of the coins would suggest that it's naive to think that unions are not interested in politics or the bigger picture in an industry and just see things on a company by company basis.

There is no valid reason for staff from one company representing staff at their biggest competitor in discussions. That's a clear conflict of interest scenario in any industry, companies don't routinely welcome rivals staff to have a look inside their business and nor does it make any sense whatsoever to do so.

L1011

IALPA have pretty defined divisions for staff at the multiple airlines they already work with. You are making massive assumptions based on a completely different setup here.

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

IALPA have pretty defined divisions for staff at the multiple airlines they already work with. You are making massive assumptions based on a completely different setup here.

Can you point to anything that suggests that the IALPA were willing to go into talks with Ryanair that they wanted to happen today solely with members who worked for Ryanair rather than members who had connections with competitor airlines?

Since you appear to suggest the the IALPA have had similar arrangements in other airlines where only staff of that airline represents their colleagues can you explain why the IALPA have not stated they are happy to comply with this request that Ryanair have made multiple times if it's such a non issue?

Surely this is an excellent card that the IALPA should play since it would turn the pressure back on to Ryanair and straight away it would dismiss any theories of a hidden agenda from their side and it would also be a building block to a better relationship with Ryanair who clearly have concerns about the actions of representatives of other airlines?

L1011

devnull wrote: »

Can you point to anything that suggests that the IALPA were willing to go into talks with Ryanair that they wanted to happen today solely with members who worked for Ryanair rather than members who had connections with competitor airlines?

Eh - you are the one making the claims here.

Can you give evidence that they do have non-airline-specific staff working with EI, WX, RE?

devnull wrote: »

Since you appear to suggest the the IALPA have had similar arrangements in other airlines where only staff of that airline represents their colleagues can you explain why the IALPA have not stated they are happy to comply with this request that Ryanair have made multiple times if it's such a non issue?

This is approaching the "so, when did you stop beating your wife?" level of debate

You are demanding a statement that has no need to exist.


Your posting is not meeting acceptable standards on here to be brutally honest about it.

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

Eh - you are the one making the claims here.

Can you give evidence that they do have non-airline-specific staff working with EI, WX, RE?

I wasn't talking about those particular airlines however, I was talking about the current situation with Ryanair rather than those other airlines.

This is approaching the "so, when did you stop beating your wife?" level of debate You are demanding a statement that has no need to exist.

Your posting is not meeting acceptable standards on here to be brutally honest about it.

I guess we'll agree to disagree on this then - I was merely giving my view, nothing more and nothing less based on my background. Appreciate that people may disagree with it though and have their own points of view and I respect and appreciate that.

lintdrummer

devnull I think your past experience is making you unduly suspicious of IALPA's motives in this case.
I think what IALPA want to achieve with the meeting is to ensure that what Ryanair is offering is actually what Ryanair pilots want. They just want clarification. That does not need the blessing of the pilots involved.
If Ryanair's motives are genuine I can't see why they wouldn't make themselves available for such a meeting before wednesday.

Bob24

devnull wrote: »

Some people should also stop being naive and think that staff are not manipulated when they are being represented by staff from a competitor, because as I've outlined, I've seen it happen at close quarters and that is why if I was Ryanair or any other company I would only agree to meet such union on the basis that it was represented fully by my own employees.

No one is being naive related to this, because no-one actually said they think in the way you describe.

Don't be fooled by Ryanair calling a union "Aer Lingus pilots union". Because they say it doesn't mean it is true, and there are not only Aer Lingus pilots in that union. They also have Ryanair members and can send them to talk to Ryanair.

And again, at this stage Ryanair have no-one else to blame but themselves for their workforce becoming unionised. Pilots issues are have existed for years and have obviously significantly escalated this year. Had the company managed to engage with their staff and gain employee confidence when those employees were trying to engage without involving unions, Ryanair would't be facing those unions today (for example and amongst many others this warning sign shouldn't have been dismissed in the way they did).

weisses

L1011 wrote: »

You are going to need to do a bit better than just guessing, constantly, at agendas you have no way of proving exist.

Then I suggest you stop hinting Ryanair has an agenda for not meeting before Christmas ... Unless you have proof of that of course

Bazzy

devnull wrote: »

The fact they would happily go into the meeting straight away before they even had chance to do so for me is a clear sign that the interests of the staff members are not their number one priority here.

Union power and politics across the industry as a whole in Ireland appear to be the goal of the IALPA, something that Irish Steve pointed out a few pages ago may well end up to be the case.

Ryanair staff should immediately consider starting up their own union and if it is to be under the IALPA umbrella, it is as a stand-alone unit operated fully by Ryanair staff without the interference of staff from other airlines.



Considering what I've seen today I doubt the IALPA will be agreeable to that.

They should set up something for themselves even if it is the most unhappiest people chairing the board so to speak

Ryanair have firmly put the ball back in the pilots court

Bazzy

NH2013 wrote: »

It would be very poor representation of their members if they called off their planned actions just because Ryanair have invited them to a meeting, that's the very first step and the bare minimum Ryanair needed to do, at a minimum the unions need to come up with a preliminary agreement or get a reasonable feeling of progress being made in order to call off the planned action.

But Ryanair have said they want to deal with ryanair employee's only

And I think its fair to say there is no way on gods green earth the union thought Ryanair would come out and say what they did today

Bazzy

L1011 wrote: »

Cancelling the strike without a meeting only for the risk of the offer of recognition to be withdrawn when it's too late to arrange further action until a traditionally extremely quiet period is something I would not want any union I was in to agree to do.

Yes, that's hypothetical but so is absolutely everything else being suggested here.

I'm sorry its far from a risk they wont

Every member of the senior management team has said they will engage

The pilots called Ryanair out

They came out and gave the Olive Branch

View Profile

weisses wrote:

Then I suggest you stop hinting Ryanair has an agenda for not meeting before Christmas ... Unless you have proof of that of course

It's very clear their agenda is to have the pilots call off the Dublin strike in order to avoid disruption and bad press at Christmas.
Why else would Ryanair schedule the meeting for Wednesday?
The strike starts at 00:01 on Wednesday morning.

Until Ryanair agrees to meet in advance of this deadline and agree to real concessions that the Ryanair pilot body (EERC) are happy with, the strike will happen.

L1011

Bazzy wrote: »

I'm sorry its far from a risk they wont

Every member of the senior management team has said they will engage

The pilots called Ryanair out

They came out and gave the Olive Branch

Ryanair senior management have a history of saying things to the media that never happen. I haven't seen a coin-op toilet for one.

That may be glib, but even most journalists now know not to trust everything said as truth; and they rarely run away from printing.

weisses wrote: »

Then I suggest you stop hinting Ryanair has an agenda for not meeting before Christmas ... Unless you have proof of that of course

Speculation gets met with speculation. It was stated to be speculation, unlike the commentary it was responding to.

Bob24

My bet is that we will see a press release from Ryanair on Tuesday morning saying they are ready to meet unions on the same day.

weisses

View Profile wrote: »

It's very clear their agenda is to have the pilots call off the Dublin strike in order to avoid disruption and bad press at Christmas.
Why else would Ryanair schedule the meeting for Wednesday?
The strike starts at 00:01 on Wednesday morning.

Until Ryanair agrees to meet in advance of this deadline and agree to real concessions that the Ryanair pilot body (EERC) are happy with, the strike will happen.

Of course they want that ... Hence they agreed to a demand for union recognition.

Do you really think Ryan air will take that offer from the table during a meeting Wednesday because it avoided a 1 day strike ? of course not

It will cause them a ****storm of trouble. Remember those people flying Wednesday have to go home as well plus there are four more days till Christmas

This is just some dick swinging, to keep the appearance Ryanair have at least some control

Blut2

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1216/927837-ryanair-impact/

The IMPACT trade union have said next week's planned strike action by some Ryanair pilots will go ahead, unless Ryanair management arrange to meet the union before Wednesday.

Speaking to RTÉ this morning, Bernard Harbor of IMPACT said the union wanted the meeting to make sure there was substance to the offer Ryanair had made, and to flesh out how the airline's recognition of unions would proceed.


Mr Harbor said IMPACT had spoken to senior Ryanair management, telling them they were ready to meet them at any time.
He said: "We are ready to meet them today or tomorrow if necessary and we want to have that meeting just to make sure that there is substance to the offer they made in writing and to flesh out how that recognition process would proceed." He added: "Once we have that we're ready to lift the industrial action but we need to do that first."


When asked if Ryanair had given an explanation as to why they were not available to meet until Wednesday, Mr Harbor said: "They have told us that they are not available. Given the seriousness of the situation I think it would be good if they could move their diaries around and find availability".

Looks like the strikes going ahead so. I feel bad for the passengers, but the ball is entirely in Ryanair's court. If the union is willing to meet with them on Saturdays or Sundays I find it hard to believe Ryanair can't manage to schedule a meeting until next Wednesday.

Bob24

Blut2 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1216/927837-ryanair-impact/



Looks like the strikes going ahead so. I feel bad for the passengers, but the ball is entirely in Ryanair's court. If the union is willing to meet with them on Saturdays or Sundays I find it hard to believe Ryanair can't manage to schedule a meeting until next Wednesday.

Yes and pilots will naturally find it suspicious that their representatives cannot be seen before the planned strike date. If I was them I would definitely want to know more about what the company is offering before backing-down.

Also this story puts an end to arguments made here saying issues are with unions sending representatives who are employees of other airlines: if IMPACT has representatives which Ryanair is happy to meet on Wednesday, the issue is clearly not with Ryanair having problem with who they are talking to, but strictly with the timing of the meeting which they and the union don't agree on.

My impression is that Ryanair knows they need to meet but are voluntarily delaying the meeting as much as they can to improve their negotiating position (and if the strike is still on the table at that time they will call unions for a meeting at some point on Tuesday). Delaying the talks puts them in a stronger position as the unions won't have several days to pressure them with strike threats while negotiating. But on the other hand they are playing with fire as if they wait too long it might become too late to stop the strike (if unions are called for a meeting only a few hours before the strike is meant to start pilots might decide to go ahead anyway as they don't feel the timing of the meeting is satisfactory to have enough information before the strike is meant to begin) .

weisses

Bob24 wrote: »

Yes and pilots will naturally find it suspicious that their representatives cannot be seen before the planned strike date. If I was them I would definitely want to know more about what the company is offering before backing-down.

You don't know what pilots think of this offer in writing by Ryanair and if they find it suspicious yes or no ...Unions would at least have to ballot their members on the current offer by Ryanair ... Negotiations are a two way street, by the looks of it Ryanair has made a huge concession in regards to their policy ... The least both parties can do is sit down for talks on a date suitable for both parties.

Pilots can take some very disruptive industrial action at any time ... Ryanair would be in some real trouble if they think they can get away with empty promises to avoid a one day strike on Wednesday.