Ibrahim Halawa acquited(mod warning in op-Heed it)

deco nate

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

I see and thats very understandable if you have no knowledge of the subject matter....not a dig btw.

Well just FYI, they have actively been training for various scenarios, including cross training with other emergency agencies.

The specialist AGS are capable of a response, despite other AGS dept shortcomings. Theres always room for improvement though.

I worry about the medical response to an event, not the security response.

Tbh, I'd put it the other way around. How fast are they when a gangland hit is made? The aru is spread thin. The

Barry Badrinath

deco nate wrote: »

Tbh, I'd put it the other way around. How fast are they when a gangland hit is made? The aru is spread thin. The

Theres more than one armed specialist unit but thats not the point im making.

Tbh, by the time a security presence arrives, in a lot of cases, its going to be too late, so you do have a valid point.

Its the medical response that is key to preventing loss of life.

Anyway, im going way OT here so will leave it at that.

deco nate

cisk wrote: »

His new Irish passport is ready, hopefully he keeps this one in one piece.

Also the suggestion of the government jet being sent over has been dismissed

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ibrahim-halawa-gets-new-irish-passport-ahead-of-release-1.3227979?mode=amp

What happened to his 10 year passport?








*runs away.... *

prinzeugen

riffmongous wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/18/irish-egyptian-man-acquitted-four-years-after-cairo-protest-arrest

He looks well fed and healthy for someone that has been tortured and was on hunger strike.

Members of his family are not expected to travel to Cairo for his release

I wonder why..

First Up

deco nate wrote:

So kinda like what happened with the MB regime that came before?

As I recall the MB regime was an elected one so that would be one difference.

Baying mobs are not a pleasant experience in any circumstances and I wouldn't blame anyone for not risking it.

I'd be as interested as anyone in Halawa's views of attacks on Coptic churches but I've seen no evidence he took part in them.

First Up

deco nate wrote:

"If he made himself known" "was asked to speak" "if he was there on holiday" that is the time line I want to know about. It will answer most questions

Do Snapchat and Whatssap ring any bells?

gitzy16v

Strange that there is so many in support of the ultra right wing Muslim brotherhood here on boards.

AlekSmart

First Up wrote: »

Dunno. In some circumstances people protesting a government overthrow and a massacre of civilians by the army would be called brave and idealistic. Maybe they felt there was strength in numbers.

But if you are in a building with a baying mob outside you would be entitled to be cautious.

A baying mob to you (And the Hawala's),but perhaps that Baying Mob represented the greater and more representative body of Egyptian opinion ?

Jim Bob Scratcher

gitzy16v wrote: »

Strange that there is so many in support of the ultra right wing Muslim brotherhood here on boards.

That is the extreme left for you, which is quite ironic, when you consider what this guys religious believes are anything but on the liberal side. It's a mind boggler and a real worry

quintana76

Don't quite get that last statement. A fact that has to be knowledged is that the Muslim Brotherhood is a fascist organisation. You know our Taoiseach is supporting an organisation that hates gays and anybody who is different to their sectarian agenda. Don't get it. Is Qatar paying money somewhere?
Who knows?. Just doesn't make rational sense.

First Up

AlekSmart wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Dunno. In some circumstances people protesting a government overthrow and a massacre of civilians by the army would be called brave and idealistic. Maybe they felt there was strength in numbers.

But if you are in a building with a baying mob outside you would be entitled to be cautious.

A baying mob to you (And the Hawala's),but perhaps that Baying Mob represented the greater and more representative body of Egyptian opinion ?

If someone was threatening to kill me I probably wouldn't be stopping to engage them in a political debate

Jawgap

riffmongous wrote: »

Ah come on, if you have a choice it seems logical to use the passport of the country you are travelling to. (whether it actually a good idea or not would need a bit of legal exp to know)

I've two passports, and yes I travel on whichever one is convenient, or whichever one I deem safest going in to a particular country......

However, here's what I don't do.......go along to a protest styled as a "Day of Rage" and expect it to be tea and buns on the lawn

Jawgap

Donal55 wrote: »

And we're expected to believe that!
After all that's gone on.

They're one of the most experienced counter-terrorist police forces in Europe!

In the 100 years or so since the foundation of the state they've been actively tracking subversives for nearly all that time.......just because you don't hear about doesn't mean it ain't happening......in fact, if you hear about it, it's probably because they cocked up!

Galwayguy35

riffmongous wrote: »

Counter-terrorism is the one thing I trust the Gardai on tbh

Wouldn't be too sure about that, sure don't they rely on information from MI6 a lot of the time.

There was a fella down in Waterford a few months ago in contact with ISIS and the cops hadn't a clue until the Brit spooks told them.

VinLieger

riffmongous wrote: »

Ah come on, if you have a choice it seems logical to use the passport of the country you are travelling to. (whether it actually a good idea or not would need a bit of legal exp to know)

Logical or not if you want Ireland to help as much as is possible you need to be using your Irish passport

Directly from the DFA website

Dual citizens
While consular assistance may be provided to dual nationals, the right of an Irish dual national to receive consular assistance from our Missions is effectively determined by the attitude of the host country. In circumstances where the Irish citizen is detained either in the country of their other nationality, or is travelling on the passport of another country, we may not be able to provide consular assistance.
Under international law, countries are not obliged to legally recognise dual citizenship/nationality. Irish citizens should be aware that travelling or visiting the country of their other citizenship may have implications for them, and that they may also be subject to laws which apply only to citizens of that country.

Galwayguy35

Divelment wrote: »

We had huge protests in Ireland over water charges, we had anti austerity protests, I was at the water protests and there was a definite feeling at the time that it could all kick off at any moment and that street riots would ensue. I remember being up at the front of the protest and Merrion Street was completely closed off and there was the Public Order Unit facing off against probably 100,000 water protestors, there were 3 lines of Gardai squaring up to the public in between the Westmoreland end of Merrion Street and Leinster House, just in case it all kicked off.

My point being that political protests are, or at least should be, part and parcel of living in a modern democracy. Talking or addressing a crowd at these protests is not a criminal offence, and should never result in a person being kept in 3rd world prison conditions for a period of 4 years awaiting trial.

He and his sisters were addressing a MB gathering, you do know what kind of a society the MB would like to see in place don't you?

Bit different to a water charges protest in fairness.

First Up

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Divelment wrote: »

We had huge protests in Ireland over water charges, we had anti austerity protests, I was at the water protests and there was a definite feeling at the time that it could all kick off at any moment and that street riots would ensue. I remember being up at the front of the protest and Merrion Street was completely closed off and there was the Public Order Unit facing off against probably 100,000 water protestors, there were 3 lines of Gardai squaring up to the public in between the Westmoreland end of Merrion Street and Leinster House, just in case it all kicked off.

My point being that political protests are, or at least should be, part and parcel of living in a modern democracy. Talking or addressing a crowd at these protests is not a criminal offence, and should never result in a person being kept in 3rd world prison conditions for a period of 4 years awaiting trial.

He and his sisters were addressing a MB gathering, you do know what kind of a society the MB would like to see in place don't you?

Bit different to a water charges protest in fairness.

You do know that the MB was the elected government don't you? Or do you only object to the military overthrow of elected governments that you like?

I wouldn't vote for them, nor would I like to live in a country under their rule, but a lot of Egyptians did and would and they were perfectly entitled to protest at their overthrow and the massacres of protesters that followed.

dr.fuzzenstein

Jawgap wrote: »

Depends......I've been involved in enough prosecutions to realise that not everyone who should be prosecuted, actually is......not every charge that should be laid actually is......and sometimes it is through the gap between knowing and proving that the unworthy escape justice

It's quite possible they had some evidence, just not enough to sustain a charge to the point of conviction.

You're making the mistake of comparing the justice system of Ireland to that of Egypt. They're only too happy to throw people in jail on suspect "evidence" in mass trials (lumping a few hundred people into one trial) in front of glorified kangoroo courts.
The fact that Ibrahim Halawa was prosecuted or even acquitted doesn't mean much in the face of such a farcical system.

http://www.jurist.org/forum/2015/01/mohamed-arafa-egypt-judiciaryphp.php
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/menna-elnaka/a-corrupted-justice-court_b_9601608.html
https://www.fairtrials.org/egyptian-ruling-shows-contempt-for-fair-trials/

Also, let's not forget, the Brotherhood was legally elected and overthrown by the military. So Ibrahim protestet against a military coup that overthrew a democratically elected government.
So many legal eagles would be the first to bleat "the system is the system, we may not like it, but them's the rules", so we cannot protest too much about what Mr Halawa did.
I see absolutely zero grounds for a lawful prosecution, as the state isn't lawful to begin with ad the one he protestet about was. We may bleat "Yeah, But! But! MUSLIMS!!! Passport!! Iman!!", but in the end we may not like it, but that is entirely irrelevant.

Galwayguy35

First Up wrote: »

You do know that the MB was the elected government don't you? Or do you only object to the military overthrow of elected governments that you don't like?

I wouldn't vote for them, nor would I like to live in a country under their rule, but a lot of Egyptians did and would and they were perfectly entitled to protest at their overthrow and the massacres of protesters that followed.

Well it seems like a lot of Egyptians wanted the MB gone as well, you know people who actually live and work in that country, not a GAA supporter who is into his rap music and a MB supporter in his spare time who just happened to be on "holiday" there.

Jawgap

First Up wrote: »

You do know that the MB was the elected government don't you? Or do you only object to the military overthrow of elected governments that you don't like?

I wouldn't vote for them, nor would I like to live in a country under their rule, but a lot of Egyptians did and would and they were perfectly entitled to protest at their overthrow and the massacres of protesters that followed.

Just because a regime is democratically elected it doesn't automatically follow that it, or its supporters, are benign. History is replete with examples of democratically elected governments that were hostile to the populations that elected them.

A lot of people seem to be hung up on the fact that his protest was in support of a democratically elected government (which it was) but seem unwilling to either probe the nature of the demos (as in the people who elected it) and the process by which it was elected. "DEMOCRACY! DEMOCRACY!" is trotted out like it's some form of shibboleth for this guy.

Jawgap

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You're making the mistake of comparing the justice system of Ireland to that of Egypt. They're only too happy to throw people in jail on suspect "evidence" in mass trials (lumping a few hundred people into one trial) in front of glorified kangoroo courts.
The fact that Ibrahim Halawa was prosecuted or even acquitted doesn't mean much in the face of such a farcical system.

http://www.jurist.org/forum/2015/01/mohamed-arafa-egypt-judiciaryphp.php
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/menna-elnaka/a-corrupted-justice-court_b_9601608.html
https://www.fairtrials.org/egyptian-ruling-shows-contempt-for-fair-trials/

Also, let's not forget, the Brotherhood was legally elected and overthrown by the military. So Ibrahim protestet against a military coup that overthrew a democratically elected government.
So many legal eagles would be the first to bleat "the system is the system, we may not like it, but them's the rules", so we cannot protest too much about what Mr Halawa did.
I see absolutely zero grounds for a lawful prosecution, as the state isn't lawful to begin with ad the one he protestet about was. We may bleat "Yeah, But! But! MUSLIMS!!! Passport!! Iman!!", but in the end we may not like it, but that is entirely irrelevant.

I fully admit to not being remotely conversant with the Egyptian legal system, but it seems people are willing to condemn the legal system but accept the political system that led to the election of the MB......weren't elections supervised under the same system/traditions the perversion of which led to Halawas incarceration? Or maybe that bit of the legal system (their electoral laws and the administration of them) is grand.

Btw, do you really think people in Ireland haven't been incarcerated on the flimsiest of evidence?

First Up

Jawgap wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

You do know that the MB was the elected government don't you? Or do you only object to the military overthrow of elected governments that you don't like?

I wouldn't vote for them, nor would I like to live in a country under their rule, but a lot of Egyptians did and would and they were perfectly entitled to protest at their overthrow and the massacres of protesters that followed.

Just because a regime is democratically elected it doesn't automatically follow that it, or its supporters, are benign. History is replete with examples of democratically elected governments that were hostile to the populations that elected them.

A lot of people seem to be hung up on the fact that his protest was in support of a democratically elected government (which it was) but seem unwilling to either probe the nature of the demos (as in the people who elected it) and the process by which it was elected. "DEMOCRACY! DEMOCRACY!" is trotted out like it's some form of shibboleth for this guy.

Its very simple really.  Do you agree that people are entitled to protest the overthrow of an elected government?  Do you agree that people are entitled to protest the murder of 800+ protesters by the police/army?

Neither the election of Morsi and the MB nor their overthrow by military force are disputed. The massacre of protesters has also been confirmed.  Given those undisputed facts, what are you accusing Halawa of doing that justified the mob attack on the protest, the siege of the mosque (by a baying mob)  and his four year incarceration without a trial before eventual release with no evidence presented against him?  

Who are the guilty parties here?

dav3

Everything comes back to one blogger. The accusations, the false claims, the distortion of facts, it all leads back to one person.

I have read, or at least attempted to read the blog. It is a poorly researched, poorly structured, tortuous web page. I can only assume that this was done deliberately for whatever reason, by someone who claims to hold a PhD.
What is clear, is that this is not about Ibrahim Halawa, but about his family, most notably about his father who may have said something about the blogger's beloved israel in the past.

The only attempt at linking Ibrahim Halawa with the muslim brotherhood is from a youtube video which claims he spoke at an Egyptians Abroad for Democracy event.
An organisation which last year hosted a conference with Harvard University.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2016/04/prweb13318611.htm

Media Advisory: Harvard University Hosts Egyptians Abroad for Democracy Worldwide Conference on Human Rights in Egypt

At no stage does the youtube video show any evidence that he is part of, or pro, muslim brotherhood. In fact the only tenuous link is from an alleged pro-muslim brotherhood website which mentions Egyptians Abroad for Democracy. That's it, there is absolutely no evidence put forward by the blogger to link Ibrahim Halawa with the muslim brotherhood, or to even suggest he is pro-muslim brotherhood.

To put the flawed logic of the blogger into context and to give it an equivalence. Anyone speaking at, or attending an anti-water charges rally, which may have been mentioned on a Sinn Fein website, would, according to the blogger, be a member of, or be pro IRA.

Everything that has been levelled at Ibrahim Halawa comes down to one person, with one tenuous link, with an apparent grudge against anyone who dares question israel.

Due to the poorly structured blog I may have missed something, but I cannot find any other evidence that attempts to link Ibrahim Halawa as being pro-muslim brotherhood. Perhaps the blogger is furiously deleting his own evidence to cover his tracks?

We've gone from Ibrahim Halawa being a dangerous Islamic terrorist who burned his passport, to someone who is a member of the muslim brotherhood, to someone who is pro-muslim brotherhood, to 'well he has some questions to answer'.
If he floats, he's a witch, burn him. If he sink, well, he only has himself to blame.

The only person that needs to be questioned right now is the blogger and why he has continued trying to pass off his one tenuous link as fact for the past 4 years, and why some people believed him.

Jawgap

First Up wrote: »

Its very simple really.  Do you agree that people are entitled to protest the overthrow of an elected government?  Do you agree that people are entitled to protest the murder of 800+ protesters by the police/army?

Neither the election of Morsi and the MB nor their overthrow by military force are disputed. The massacre of protesters has also been confirmed.  Given those undisputed facts, what are you accusing Halawa of doing that justified the mob attack on the protest, the siege of the mosque (by a baying mob)  and his four year incarceration without a trial before eventual release with no evidence presented against him?  

Who are the guilty parties here?

Absolutely I agree with the right to protest......what I'm questioning is the wisdom of an Irish citizen travelling to another country to protest......or the wisdom of travelling then deciding to participate in a "Day of Rage"

I'm also questioning why someone would travel on a second passport then, having violated the laws of the country travelled to, expects those same laws to be set aside so he can avail of the very consular assistance he tacitly rejected by not travelling on the correct passport.

He travelled as an Egyptian citizen, but then expected the full force of the Irish state to be applied to dig him out of a situation largely of his own making?

The Irish state was good enough to arrange his extrication, he rejected it. Having been incarcerated, the DFA offered advice on how the family might proceed - they rejected it and pursued their own campaign......

......and yet it's everyone else's fault he spent 4 years locked up!

Here's some useful advice for him in future......travel on your Irish passport......as an Irish citizen, don't get involved with "Days of Rage"......if you must get involved don't broadcast the fact......don't be duped by all and sundry.....if the ambassador, while under no obligation to do so, negotiates your sorry arse out of the sh1t, take it with both hands.....if you do get banged up listen to the DFA (they have some experience in government-to-government dealings, plus it plays into the "innocent-abroad" narrative).....if people are going to protest your incarceration, ask them not to use the colours of the organisation you were supporting in the first instance (kind of undermines the innocent-abroad narrative).....

super_furry

dav3 wrote: »

Everything comes back to one blogger. The accusations, the false claims, the distortion of facts, it all leads back to one person.

It's the same as the claims that Ibrahim tore up his Irish passport and burnt the tricolour. A rumour started by a fake account linked to Leo Sherlock. Despite this being pointed out time and again, people still repeat these lies because it suits their agenda.

https://twitter.com/TheLiberal_x/status/905385904445026305

First Up

Jawgap wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

Its very simple really.  Do you agree that people are entitled to protest the overthrow of an elected government?  Do you agree that people are entitled to protest the murder of 800+ protesters by the police/army?

Neither the election of Morsi and the MB nor their overthrow by military force are disputed. The massacre of protesters has also been confirmed.  Given those undisputed facts, what are you accusing Halawa of doing that justified the mob attack on the protest, the siege of the mosque (by a baying mob)  and his four year incarceration without a trial before eventual release with no evidence presented against him?  

Who are the guilty parties here?

Absolutely I agree with the right to protest......what I'm questioning is the wisdom of an Irish citizen travelling to another country to protest......or the wisdom of travelling then deciding to participate in a "Day of Rage"

I'm also questioning why someone would travel on a second passport then, having violated the laws of the country travelled to, expects those same laws to be set aside so he can avail of the very consular assistance he tacitly rejected by not travelling on the correct passport.

He travelled as an Egyptian citizen, but then expected the full force of the Irish state to be applied to dig him out of a situation largely of his own making?

The Irish state was good enough to arrange his extrication, he rejected it. Having been incarcerated, the DFA offered advice on how the family might proceed - they rejected it and pursued their own campaign......

......and yet it's everyone else's fault he spent 4 years locked up!

Here's some useful advice for him in future......travel on your Irish passport......as an Irish citizen, don't get involved with "Days of Rage"......if you must get involved don't broadcast the fact......don't be duped by all and sundry.....if the ambassador, while under no obligation to do so, negotiates your sorry arse out of the sh1t, take it with both hands.....if you do get banged up listen to the DFA (they have some experience in government-to-government dealings, plus it plays into the "innocent-abroad" narrative).....if people are going to protest your incarceration, ask them not to use the colours of the organisation you were supporting in the first instance (kind of undermines the innocent-abroad narrative).....

His Egyptian credentials and the gravity of the events were both more than enough to justify his involvement. I would n't deny his right to protest.
If I was in as much trouble as he was, I would use anything and any means available, including passports.  Wouldn't you?
The ambassador's role has been well discussed.  Halawa and his sisters chose not to risk leaving the mosque.  We weren't there so we are not in a position to second guess them. In any case the ambassador's "guarantee" was just to get them out of the mosque alive - nothing more.  They would not have been driven to the airport.
By all means accuse an idealistic seventeen year old of being foolish and showing poor judgement.  Most seventeen year olds qualify - they just don't get four years in jail as a result.

Jawgap

First Up wrote: »

His Egyptian credentials and the gravity of the events were both more than enough to justify his involvement. I would n't deny his right to protest.
If I was in as much trouble as he was, I would use anything and any means available, including passports.  Wouldn't you?
The ambassador's role has been well discussed.  Halawa and his sisters chose not to risk leaving the mosque.  We weren't there so we are not in a position to second guess them. In any case the ambassador's "guarantee" was just to get them out of the mosque alive - nothing more.  They would not have been driven to the airport.
By all means accuse an idealistic seventeen year old of being foolish and showing poor judgement.  Most seventeen year olds qualify - they just don't get four years in jail as a result.

Look, either he's an Irish citizen or he's not. If he identifies as Egyptian (something to consider as a given if his involvement with Egyptians Abroad for Democracy is true) fair enough......but we're just being played for mugs, if he travelled as an Egyptian, protested as an Egyptian, spoke as an Egyptian but then expected to be treated as Irish once the whole thing went sideways.

This innocent abroad narrative is, frankly, b0ll0x - nothing of the story stacks up. He went to protest, not on a family holiday......he protested and then, quelle surprise, was shocked to find that the regime didn't pat him on the head and send him home with a stern telling off.

As for your other question, my second passport is a US one......how far do you think our consular officials would go if, next time I'm in the US, I entered on my American passport then got arrested in an anti-Trump demo and then played my Irish passport......I'm guessing I'd get pretty short shrift from the consular offices.....

First Up

Jawgap wrote: »

First Up wrote: »

His Egyptian credentials and the gravity of the events were both more than enough to justify his involvement. I would n't deny his right to protest.
If I was in as much trouble as he was, I would use anything and any means available, including passports.  Wouldn't you?
The ambassador's role has been well discussed.  Halawa and his sisters chose not to risk leaving the mosque.  We weren't there so we are not in a position to second guess them. In any case the ambassador's "guarantee" was just to get them out of the mosque alive - nothing more.  They would not have been driven to the airport.
By all means accuse an idealistic seventeen year old of being foolish and showing poor judgement.  Most seventeen year olds qualify - they just don't get four years in jail as a result.

Look, either he's an Irish citizen or he's not. If he identifies as Egyptian (something to consider as a given if his involvement with Egyptians Abroad for Democracy is true) fair enough......but we're just being played for mugs, if he travelled as an Egyptian, protested as an Egyptian, spoke as an Egyptian but then expected to be treated as Irish once the whole thing went sideways.

This innocent abroad narrative is, frankly, b0ll0x - nothing of the story stacks up. He went to protest, not on a family holiday......he protested and then, quelle surprise, was shocked to find that the regime didn't pat him on the head and send him home with a stern telling off.

As for your other question, my second passport is a US one......how far do you think our consular officials would go if, next time I'm in the US, I entered on my American passport then got arrested in an anti-Trump demo and then played my Irish passport......I'm guessing I'd get pretty short shrift from the consular offices.....

The passport stuff is neither here or there.  A lot of people have more than one and they use them  as and when it s most convenient or useful.   Many Americans carry a European passport for ease of travel (and in case they get hijacked) but that doesn't stop them running into a US embassy if trouble starts.   If you were sitting on remand for 4 years in a US Federal prison, I suspect you might fish out your Irish one.

Nobody has described him as an "innocent abroad".  You have decided to believe he traveled to protest so no point in bothering you with facts and evidence to the contrary.

Jawgap

First Up wrote: »

The passport stuff is neither here or there.  A lot of people have more than one and they use them  as and when it s most convenient or useful.  A lot of Americans carry a European passport for ease of travel (and in case they get hijacked) but that doesn't stop hem running into a US embassy if trouble starts.   If you were sitting on remand for 4 years in a US Federal prison, I suspect you might fish out your Irish one.

Nobody has described him as an "innocent abroad".  You have decided to believe he traveled to protest so no point in bothering you with facts and evidence to the contrary.

"The passport stuff is neither here or there" - eh? It's at the very heart of the situation!! I know his supporters want it glossed over, but did he or did he not travel as an Egyptian?

Plus his supporters have persistently tried to portray him as an innocent abroad.....a young Dublin lad who went on a family holiday and got swept up in events, when the reality, as suggested by the evidence, is that he travelled with the purpose of placing himself at the heart of the protests.

And btw, the number of US citizens holding dual nationality is less than 500000, or about 0.3% of the citizenry......so the vast, vast majority actually don't carry EU passports (and the number declines even more significantly if you exclude people who have dual citizenship by virtue of being born abroad while their parents were serving in the military)....when you apply to be naturalised you have to forego any other citizenship (you just leave it a few months and apply for your second passport back).

And yeah, "hijacking" that's the reason to have a different passport :rolleyes: - this isn't the 1970s/80s anymore.......

I'm sure I would try to play my Irish passport if I was thrown in jail in the US......but how far do you think I'd get with the consul? would the ambassador come down herself and negotiate my release?

K.Flyer

I think some people are very conveniently skipping over the part as to why the military got involved in the first place.
Morsi may have been democratically elected, but he very quickly set out to give himself irrevocable powers over the judiciary and set out to change the constitution dragging Egypt back to a Sharia ruled country.
This led to huge protests rallying against him on the streets which Morsi believed he could quash with violence, but it was resisted.
Thats when the military got involved and requested Morsi to reverse his plans or step down, neither of which he wanted to do.
The constitutional changes that Morsi had tried to rush through, with the support and approval of the Muslim Brotherhood, are seen by some as an Islamic Coup in itself to bring back Sharia as the main governing law in the country.
So, seeing as it was an "..Islamic matter", are those shouting for the Morsi M/B side using the Democracy stick as a veil for their total support for Sharia.