Ibrahim Halawa acquited(mod warning in op-Heed it)

musiknonstop

end of the road wrote: »

irrelevant. he is as irish as you and me.

This is a deluded opinion. I can trace my ancestors back to different counties, none of which is Egypt.

RustyNut

Hitman3000 wrote: »

MB was elected and there was many instances of electoral fraud so legitimacy can be called into question. Ousted by the army, yeah its called a Coup common word to be honest . Happened in S.America several times.

So just for clarity, you would be the one with contempt for democracy not Ibrahim Halawa?

_Kaiser_

So Ibrahim is back in Ireland - good for him. I don't agree with the media circus around his return, and I still think he has real questions to answer about how he found himself on stage addressing a political rally, but I guess that won't happen at this stage.
Far more likely he appears on the Late Late where Tubridy will ask lightweight softball questions about life in a Turkish prison and whatever. The best thing this lad can do now really is to catch up on his life and we never hear from him again.. but somehow I don't think that'll be the case.

As a side note, the petty bickering and sniping above (from both sides) is why these discussions keep getting locked which is a pity as there's definitely a topic here worth discussing and it's one that I think will gather more headlines in this country over the next few years.

Hitman3000

RustyNut wrote:

So just for clarity, you would be the one with contempt for democracy not Ibrahim Halawa?

How do you square electoral fraud with democratically elected. Take your time. I'm in work will see your response later. Might respond once it's not nonsense.

SnakePlissken

musiknonstop wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

irrelevant. he is as irish as you and me.

This is a deluded opinion. I can trace my ancestors back to different counties, none of which is Egypt.

All this debate on his nationality is detracting from the much more serious question of his support for the heinous Muslim brotherhood.

In my view, he is indeed Irish as this was his place of birth, which is even more troubling as to how someone borne into a tolerant society such as ours could prescribe to such a backward ideology.

That someone born and raised in the Middle East might hold such misogynist and homophobic views is somewhat understandable, that a born and raised Dub could, is much more surprising.

seamus

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I still think he has real questions to answer about how he found himself on stage addressing a political rally

He's a private individual, he doesn't have to answer anything.

If you believe there are questions of a criminal nature that Halawa needs to answer, then make a complaint to the Gardai.

Otherwise, he has nothing to answer. The public is not entitled to any answers from any private individual unless they are part of a criminal investigation.

JP Liz V1

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

So Ibrahim is back in Ireland - good for him. I don't agree with the media circus around his return, and I still think he has real questions to answer about how he found himself on stage addressing a political rally, but I guess that won't happen at this stage.
Far more likely he appears on the Late Late where Tubridy will ask lightweight softball questions about life in a Turkish prison and whatever. The best thing this lad can do now really is to catch up on his life and we never hear from him again.. but somehow I don't think that'll be the case.

As a side note, the petty bickering and sniping above (from both sides) is why these discussions keep getting locked which is a pity as there's definitely a topic here worth discussing and it's one that I think will gather more headlines in this country over the next few years.

I think he is writing a book now

_Kaiser_

SnakePlissken wrote: »

All this debate on his nationality is detracting from the much more serious question of his support for the heinous Muslim brotherhood.

In my view, he is indeed Irish as this was his place of birth, which is even more troubling as to how someone borne into a tolerant society such as ours could prescribe to such a backward ideology.

That someone born and raised in the Middle East might hold such misogynist and homophobic views is somewhat understandable, that a born and raised Dub could, is much more surprising.

I think the reasoning there is that it's not just the country that he (or anyone) is born into, but the environment they're raised in.

Given that his father is a senior cleric, and the strictness of the religion generally, it's not surprising that enclaves of this ideology develop not just here in Ireland, but in the UK and elsewhere among 2nd/3rd generation offspring.

The problem is that while tolerance and acceptance for diversity and freedom of religion is a good thing.. we've gotten to the point where we are afraid to draw limits on that for fear of appearing "racist" or "discriminatory" or whatever other term you like. This allows hard-line variants and extremism to grow in places you wouldn't expect it.

jmayo

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Our faith ?I think all religion is b.s. used by assholes to control idiots. That's just my opinion though

No you have to be catholic, live in a village probably very rural one, and probably GAA fan.
Otherwise how can you be a racist and not like fundamentalist muslims and islamists.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Strange thread this. I'm guessing the side that feel strongly about one side of the argument have never left their villages before.

Au contraire.
It is the village idiots that can't see further than their ever so superior arrogant liberal noses.
They have usually met a few muslims, normally the educated ones, and thus think they can speak for an entire religious and social movement of a billion people.
They fail to notice that most muslim dominated states are backward misogynistic hellholes often basically run on some prehistoric rules dreamt up by a 7th century warlord.
They fail to notice how more enlightened muslims are being drown out by the fundamentalists.

They also usually rant and rave about right wing catholics, who are predominantly elderly at this stage, but yet fail to notice how even a lot of the so called "moderate" muslims would like a set of rules brought in to dictate our lives that would make the most ardent opus day member look like a guest at one of hugh hefner's bashes.

SnakePlissken wrote: »

Very irresponsible of Daddy Halawa to allow his lil' bearded child travel to the foreign lands of Egypt without his parents.

Ehh I don't think he can ever go back due to his links with muslim brotherhood.

glenfieldman wrote: »

Mr amnesty international, Colm O’Gorman contradicts the official narrative of “just on holiday” bs

The level of cognitive dissonance that lad engages in is mind boggling.

He fails to acknowledge the protests were organised and run by the muslim brotherhood, the very organisation that would glady fook him off a 5 storey building. :rolleyes:

turkeys voting for christmas comes to mind.

RustyNut

Hitman3000 wrote: »

How do you square electoral fraud with democratically elected. Take your time. I'm in work will see your response later. Might respond once it's not nonsense.

Do you have any evidence of electoral fraud on behalf of the MB?

JP Liz V1

seamus wrote: »

He's a private individual, he doesn't have to answer anything.

If you believe there are questions of a criminal nature that Halawa needs to answer, then make a complaint to the Gardai.

Otherwise, he has nothing to answer. The public is not entitled to any answers from any private individual unless they are part of a criminal investigation.

I think with all the coverage this got plus all efforts, resources, money, government etc., put in to getting him back to Ireland he does owe some explanation, he did choose to partake in a protest for MB, I would like to see an honest hard hitting one on one interview with him

If he was such a private individual why tweets and pictures from the plane coming back and the big "hero" airport reception

_Kaiser_

seamus wrote: »

He's a private individual, he doesn't have to answer anything.

If you believe there are questions of a criminal nature that Halawa needs to answer, then make a complaint to the Gardai.

Otherwise, he has nothing to answer. The public is not entitled to any answers from any private individual unless they are part of a criminal investigation.

If the guy (and his family) position him as an innocent victim to the country and the media, and put pressure on the State to intervene on his behalf (as they did and as was done), then it's not at all unreasonable for that same public and Government to have the full story of how it happened in the first place.

givyjoe

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So no sources just your opinion. Cheers.


Yet multiple supporters of him and his clan claim he was on holidays.
Protesting for a shower of dark age bigots whose goal was to replace the constitution with one that enshrined Shria law says a lot about his motivations and contempt for democracy.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

If the guy (and his family) position him as an innocent victim to the country and the media, and put pressure on the State to intervene on his behalf (as they did and as was done), then it's not at all unreasonable for that same public and Government to have the full story of how it happened in the first place.

The Egyptian authorities seem to 'position him' as innocent too, hence he was released and acquitted of all charges.

First Up

JP Liz V1 wrote:

I think with all the coverage this got plus all efforts, resources, money, government etc., put in to getting him back to Ireland he does owe some explanation, he did choose to partake in a protest for MB, I would like to see an honest hard hitting one on one interview with him

Are you saying that taking part in a protest was wrong?

JP Liz V1

First Up wrote: »

Are you saying that taking part in a protest was wrong?

So taking part in a protest for MB is right?

Omackeral

First Up wrote: »

Are you saying that taking part in a protest was wrong?

If he was there to protest, admit that from the off. Why dress it up as a post leaving cert holiday? That's one reason why people have an issue.

RustyNut

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

So taking part in a protest for MB is right?

What would be wrong with demonstrating in support of a democratically elected government?

gozunda

First Up wrote: »

Coming from someone who has been portraying Halawa and the MB as terrorists out to impose ISIS style Sharia Law, that is indeed rich. But it is good to see someone finally admitting to the complexity of it all.

If you want a proper, authoritative source (instead of Humphrey's diatribes) have a look at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/myths-about-morsi-examining-justifications-egypt-s-2013-cou-1248467631

..

Coming from someone who would potray the MB as just having been misunderstood is indeed ironic. Your simplistic rendering of the 2011 - 2013 period in Egypt was risible tbh. Hence I had to point that the politics of that era required less soundbites and more detail than provided to date on this thread by pro MB posters

It is of interest that you mention that I alledgedly implied that the MB (a now proscribed terrorist organisation in many Arab countries) were imposing ISIS style sharia law ...

You must not be very well informed because that would appear to be exactly what the MB attempted to do in Egypt after being elected into power under President Morsi following the 2011 - 2012 elections

The MBs political party were elected on a raft of political promises that never materialised post election. Democracy was simply used as a vehicle to grab power - after which little evidence of democracy was evident.

The abuses of the rule of law led many of the ordinary people of Egypt to rise up in protest and calling for the overtrow of M. Morsi annd his MB brethern. The overthrow was later brought to fruition by a military style coup that was headed by both military and religious leaders ...

It is of note that President Morsi gave himself the power to legislate without the requirement of review or judicial oversight.

Morsi was responsible for drafting
a constitution to a referendum that would have effectively brought in Sharia style Laws

Under Morsi's rule the prosecutions of journalists was pevalent, their was continued Muslim Brotherhood violence and and the introduction of new laws which increased the period of detention without judicial review

There is a lot more however I have work to do ..

See:
El Rashidi, Y ."Egypt -The Rule of the Brotherhood". New York Review 7/2/201

"Egypt's Mursi annuls controversial decree, opposition says not enough". Al Arabiya. 9/12/2012.

Williams, D "Muslim Brotherhood abuses continue under Egypt's military". The Washington Post 17/08/2013

For your information I have perused the website mentioned but I have also accessed many many other sources.

I am aware of the writer you mentioned but no I won't be taking him in isolation either as a definitive source by any means. Thanks all the same ...

First Up

JP Liz V1 wrote:

So taking part in a protest for MB is right?

The protest was against the overthrow of the democratically elected MB government and subsequent gunning down of up to 500 protestors.

So if that constitutes a protest "for" the MB, then yes, the protest was justified.

tomwaterford

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

So taking part in a protest for MB is right?

Pretty sure everyone has a right to peaceful protest?


No matter how bad the cause they support??

First Up

Omackeral wrote:

If he was there to protest, admit that from the off. Why dress it up as a post leaving cert holiday? That's one reason why people have an issue.

Who dressed it up? The family went to Egypt almost every year to visit relatives. That year's visit coincided with a military coup and they took part in protests about it. What's so mysterious or sinister about it?

gozunda

tomwaterford wrote: »

Pretty sure everyone has a right to peaceful protest?


No matter how bad the cause they support??

The issue I believe is said that the protests were far from peaceful - with one of the protests attended by the Halawas billed by the MB as a "Day of Rage" ...

I can see how indigenous Egyptians living in Egypt could get involved in such protests however the mind boggles as to the concept of foreign citizens 'going on holiday to attend same....

JP Liz V1

First Up wrote: »

Who dressed it up? The family went to Egypt almost every year to visit relatives. That year's visit coincided with a military coup and they took part in protests about it. What's so mysterious or sinister about it?

Did the sisters or another relative not admit they went there for the protests, apologies if I am wrong

gozunda

First Up wrote: »

The protest was against the overthrow of the democratically elected MB government and subsequent gunning down of up to 500 protestors.

So if that constitutes a protest "for" the MB, then yes, the protest was justified.

You reply is somehat biased and again overtly simplistic in your portrayal of what happened in Egypt during that period ...

tomwaterford

gozunda wrote: »

The issue I believe is said that the protests were far from peaceful - with one of the protests attended by the Halawas billed by the MB as a "Day of Rage" ...

I can see how indigenous Egyptians living in Egypt could get involved in such protests however the mind boggles as to the concept of foreign citizens 'going on holiday to attend same....

This I do wonder on this??


But after 4 years,they couldn't come up with enough evidence to convict him of something,they can't hold someone indefinitely....that's not right

gozunda

tomwaterford wrote: »

This I do wonder on this??


But after 4 years,they couldn't come up with enough evidence to convict him of something,they can't hold someone indefinitely....that's not right

What exactly is the connection between what I wrote and your statement?

First Up

gozunda wrote:

Coming from someone who would potray the MB as just having been misunderstood is indeed ironic. Your simplistic rendering of the 2011 - 2013 period in Egypt was risible tbh. Hence I had to point that the politics of that era required less soundbites and more detail than provided to date on this thread by pro MB posters

I am not "pro" MB and nowhere did I say they have been simply misunderstood. They were however elected to government and overthrown by the military who also killed hundreds of civilians.

The "era" extends well beyond 2011-2013. The MB was founded in 1928 and survived and evolved under many regimes since - many of them corrupt dictatorships. Their popularity was due in large part to popular anger against the likes of Mubarak.

Portraying the MB as no more than terrorists or a branch of ISIS and Halawa as a fellow traveller is offensively stupid and a crude attempt to sell another agenda.

I don't know what your ideal political regime would look like but armies overthrowing goverments and killing or locking people up for protesting about it sure isn't the path I'd recommend to achieving it.

Omackeral

First Up wrote: »

Who dressed it up? The family went to Egypt almost every year to visit relatives. That year's visit coincided with a military coup and they took part in protests about it. What's so mysterious or sinister about it?

Wouldn't strike me as a typically Irish holiday activity anyway. Most would go sight-seeing or the likes.

gozunda

First Up wrote: »

I am not "pro" MB and nowhere did I say they have been simply *misunderstood*. They were however elected to government and overthrown by the military who also killed hundreds of civilians.

*Your posts appear to indictate otherwise tbh.

First Up wrote: »

The "era" extends well beyond 2011-2013. The MB was founded in 1928 and survived and evolved under many regimes since - many of them corrupt dictatorships. Their popularity was due in large part to popular anger against the likes of Mubarak.

Yes as pointed out earlier I am well aware of the history of the MB. Unless you want me to write a thesis on the origins of the MB every time I mention them. :rolleyes: i could point out that you are being very economical with the facts here - you failed to mention amongst other things the assination of the Egyptian Prime minister Mahmoud El Nokrashy Pasha in 1948 by a member of the MB

First Up wrote: »

Portraying the MB as no more than terrorists or a branch of ISIS and Halawa as a fellow traveller is offensively stupid and a crude attempt to sell another agenda.

I don't know what your ideal political regime would look like but armies overthrowing goverments and killing or locking people up for protesting about it sure isn't the path I'd recommend to achieving it.

But I have no need to potray the MB as terrorists - they are a proscribed terrorist organisation in many Arab countries. Again simplification of this issue is risible tbh..

RobertKK

RustyNut wrote: »

What would be wrong with demonstrating in support of a democratically elected government?

So it was ok for the Muslim Brotherhkod to incite violence and killing of Christians in Egypt because they were democratically elected?

Some people hold democracy as something untouchable, it has given us some really nasty people like Morsi, like Hitler, like John Russell who let the famine here rage on and over 1 million dead.
Democracy is not something holy or untouchable if it is involved in cruelty, division and crimes...