Lack of STEM Teachers.

doc_17

Now I know why they call it STE(A)M and not STEM. There are only 3 Physics graduates currently enrolled over the 2 years of the PME.

Including The Arts I suppose improves the numbers of STE(A)M teachers in the system. It's like something Sir Humphrey would come up with!

The kids will need all the wellbeing they can get to help them cope!

Mardy Bum

doc_17 wrote: »

Now I know why they call it STE(A)M and not STEM. There are only 3 Physics graduates currently enrolled over the 2 years of the PME.

Including The Arts I suppose improves the numbers of STE(A)M teachers in the system. It's like something Sir Humphrey would come up with!

The kids will need all the wellbeing they can get to help them cope!

Is this from every college in the country? Whoever earthed that statistic managed to do something the TC has been unable to do for years.

doc_17

It was in the Irish Times today. Yes all 2 year PMEs.

And applications to the 2 year PME are down 50% this year.

TheDriver

doc_17 wrote: »

It was in the Irish Times today. Yes all 2 year PMEs.

And applications to the 2 year PME are down 50% this year.

Its getting impossible to get any STEM teachers, maths in particular. Theres jobs out there so teaching has become the 2nd preference unfortunately.

mtoutlemonde

doc_17 wrote: »

Now I know why they call it STE(A)M and not STEM. There are only 3 Physics graduates currently enrolled over the 2 years of the PME.

Including The Arts I suppose improves the numbers of STE(A)M teachers in the system. It's like something Sir Humphrey would come up with!

The kids will need all the wellbeing they can get to help them cope!

I wonder how the roll out of Computer Science next year will find suitably qualified teachers to deliver the programme. I think starting it as a Leaving Certificate subject is very risky and has the possibility of messing up a students future (unless they have a flair for IT). Having a flair for IT but a badly trained/inexperienced teacher will not guarantee a H1.

rainbowtrout

doc_17 wrote: »

Now I know why they call it STE(A)M and not STEM. There are only 3 Physics graduates currently enrolled over the 2 years of the PME.

But how many are enrolled in teacher training degrees for science such as the ones in UL or Maynooth?

In my experience, people who are on physics degrees are really into their physics and more often than not want a career in physics/engineering/IT/research rather than teaching physics.


Physics subs are hard to come by, which does suggest a shortage overall, but just quoting PME figures doesn't give the whole picture. All teacher training courses would have to be taken into account to provide that.

doc_17

rainbowtrout wrote: »

But how many are enrolled in teacher training degrees for science such as the ones in UL or Maynooth?

In my experience, people who are on physics degrees are really into their physics and more often than not want a career in physics/engineering/IT/research rather than teaching physics.


Physics subs are hard to come by, which does suggest a shortage overall, but just quoting PME figures doesn't give the whole picture. All teacher training courses would have to be taken into account to provide that.

Absolutely. But numbers applying for the PME have decreased by 50%. I don't think that's uniform across all subjects and I would bet that the STEM subjects have bourne the brunt of that decrease.

Mardy Bum

doc_17 wrote: »

Absolutely. But numbers applying for the PME have decreased by 50%. I don't think that's uniform across all subjects and I would bet that the STEM subjects have born the brunt of that decrease.

There was a short time when you needed a high 2.1 and a 1.1 in a business subject now all you need is 12k. I wonder what future graduates will be like...

man_no_plan

I would be interested to know how many are on the concurrent programmes too.

UL, DCU and NUIM are doing Science Ed courses, sone with maths.

If you want to be a teacher, avoiding the PME by doing a teacher training course saves you 12k plus your first years earnings. A no brainer. Interestingly, St. Angela's is a 5 year programme but the others didn't extend theirs.

rainbowtrout

I studied physics part time in maynooth 2 years ago. Seemingly what the students were told there on the four year science education degree was that on completion of the degree that they could then transfer to the second year of the PME, so they would be qualified teachers.

There were 3 students in third year science ed in maynooth who had taken physics as one of their subjects when I was studying there. Seems to be pretty small overall each year up there.

I did Science Ed in UL. As Biology/Ag Science were compulsory and the choice was then Physics or Chemistry as the third subject, it usually split one third physics, two thirds chemistry. There was 30 in my class and 11 or so did physics, but they expanded the course to about 50 after that I think.

They also had a course in Physics and Chemistry teaching, but that usually attracts no more than 10 I think.

The Science Ed degree in UL changed a couple of years ago and now it's two subjects from Ag, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, so I'd be interested to see if the number opting for physics drops when it's not part of a 50/50 choice anymore.

man_no_plan

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I studied physics part time in maynooth 2 years ago. Seemingly what the students were told there on the four year science education degree was that on completion of the degree that they could then transfer to the second year of the PME, so they would be qualified teachers.

There were 3 students in third year science ed in maynooth who had taken physics as one of their subjects when I was studying there. Seems to be pretty small overall each year up there.

I did Science Ed in UL. As Biology/Ag Science were compulsory and the choice was then Physics or Chemistry as the third subject, it usually split one third physics, two thirds chemistry. There was 30 in my class and 11 or so did physics, but they expanded the course to about 50 after that I think.

They also had a course in Physics and Chemistry teaching, but that usually attracts no more than 10 I think.

The Science Ed degree in UL changed a couple of years ago and now it's two subjects from Ag, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, so I'd be interested to see if the number opting for physics drops when it's not part of a 50/50 choice anymore.

Possibly not enough doing it in second level to even consider it as a career choice.

English, geography, history all have huge numbers, and large numbers of teachers.
%wise probably similar uptake!

rainbowtrout

man_no_plan wrote: »

Possibly not enough doing it in second level to even consider it as a career choice.

English, geography, history all have huge numbers, and large numbers of teachers.
%wise probably similar uptake!

Yes and no. About 6500 do physics for LC every year. But numbers in physics degrees are small generally. Lots of students taking physics in school end up in engineering/IT degrees so don't end up teaching. The numbers graduating generally with physics degrees would be small so it's not really all that surprising that the number of graduates then choosing to teach physics would also be small.

Again to go back to Maynooth, I did 2nd and 3rd year physics there. There were about 75 doing physics in 2nd year between those doing physics degrees, doing science degrees and physics being one of their chosen subjects and those doing compulsory or elective physics modules as part of a science degree. In third year there were 25 or so students, 3 from the science teaching degree, maybe 10-12 from the physics with astrophysics degree and the remainder in the general science degree. I would imagine any other college offering physics is similar.

Mardy Bum

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yes and no. About 6500 do physics for LC every year. But numbers in physics degrees are small generally. Lots of students taking physics in school end up in engineering/IT degrees so don't end up teaching. The numbers graduating generally with physics degrees would be small so it's not really all that surprising that the number of graduates then choosing to teach physics would also be small.

Again to go back to Maynooth, I did 2nd and 3rd year physics there. There were about 75 doing physics in 2nd year between those doing physics degrees, doing science degrees and physics being one of their chosen subjects and those doing compulsory or elective physics modules as part of a science degree. In third year there were 25 or so students, 3 from the science teaching degree, maybe 10-12 from the physics with astrophysics degree and the remainder in the general science degree. I would imagine any other college offering physics is similar.

The reality is a student with a degree in physics is going to enter teaching very rarely because of the other jobs that this degree makes accessible.

The numbers in BEd's would be more interesting.

Corkgirl18

There's usually a few physics graduates in the UCC concurrent programme. Hibernia also might have a few.

I graduated in the last few years and have been teaching physics and chemistry. My class and I all struggled to get jobs despite the apparent shortage. Some of them are still just subbing a few years later.
Many are doing the UL Maths course to better their chances.
Maybe its a particular part of the country that has the shortage but I'd have known a good shot of UL science teachers who graduated at the same time who had similar experiences.
We were all told about this shortage before we graduated and that it'd be very straightforward to get jobs but we found a very different story.

shopper2011

It takes seven years to become a fully qualified Physics teachers by a normall route without shortcuts, such as transfers into 2nd year of pme's for 25k a year. Its no wonder they cant get STEM teachers. Richard Bruton believes the ahortage of qualified teachera is good evidence of an improving economy. Economy comes first with Fine Gael.
It will not be untill it majorly affects economic growth, that the shortfall in STEM teachers will be addressed and the salary increase and training time necessary for teaching council registration reduced.

Corkgirl18

shopper2011 wrote: »

It takes seven years to become a fully qualified Physics teachers by a normall route without shortcuts, such as transfers into 2nd year of pme's for 25k a year. Its no wonder they cant get STEM teachers. Richard Bruton believes the ahortage of qualified teachera is good evidence of an improving economy. Economy comes first with Fine Gael.
It will not be untill it majorly affects economic growth, that the shortfall in STEM teachers will be addressed and the salary increase and training time necessary for teaching council registration reduced.

How do you figure 7 years? Most would go through the concurrent degree route and do it in 4.
If you do your 4 year physics degree first you do another 2 for the PME so you do it in 6 - same as any other teacher.

rainbowtrout

shopper2011 wrote: »

It takes seven years to become a fully qualified Physics teachers by a normall route without shortcuts, such as transfers into 2nd year of pme's for 25k a year.

I appreciate the general vibe, but I prefer sticking to facts when debating education issues.

Route 1: four year science degree and two year PME: six years
Route 2: teacher training degree: four or five years depending on where you go.



Route 2 is not a shortcut, it is a normal route, it is a legitimate qualification for teaching.

shopper2011

4yr physics + 2yr pme, and you still have todo 1 yr NCT status after you secure a job. Your first year is NQT and you do your training course with teaching council plus 300hrs class contact time within three years of qualifing. If you dont get 300hrs done, even the concurrent degree means squat and you left with nothing.

Concurrent degree is only for teaching, not much good otherwise. Experience in UK not good enough for Irelands Teaching Council. IMO the governemnt needs to reduce teaching qualification to the one year NQT programme and forget about out of touch PME programmes.

mtoutlemonde

shopper2011 wrote: »

4yr physics + 2yr pme, and you still have todo 1 yr NCT status after you secure a job. Your first year is NQT and you do your training course with teaching council plus 300hrs class contact time within three years of qualifing. If you dont get 300hrs done, even the concurrent degree means squat and you left with nothing.

Not true, you can apply for an extension.

shopper2011 wrote: »

Concurrent degree is only for teaching, not much good otherwise. Experience in UK not good enough for Irelands Teaching Council. IMO the governemnt needs to reduce teaching qualification to the one year NQT programme and forget about out of touch PME programmes.

I know nothing about science degrees but would a graduate, if not applying for teaching work be eligible to work in a lab etc.?

What do you mean that teaching experience in England is not enough for Teaching Council? Doesn't the NQT year in England equate to the second year PME ? Teaching experience in England is also recognised by the Department for point of scale.

The government is not going to reduce a course that only changed to a two year programme a few years ago. Why would they? The universities take 12k from student teachers with them being on placement for most of the year?

shopper2011

mtoutlemonde wrote:

What do you mean that teaching experience in England is not enough for Teaching Council? Doesn't the NQT year in England equate to the second year PME ? Teaching experience in England is also recognised by the Department for point of scale.

For NQT status it needs to be an Irish school. Afaik point of scale transferrable if qualified at the time.

mtoutlemonde wrote:

I know nothing about science degrees but would a graduate, if not applying for teaching work be eligible to work in a lab etc.?

A Science degree, YES. A B'ed aka concurrent science teacher ed degree, NO

Corkgirl18

shopper2011 wrote: »

For NQT status it needs to be an Irish school. Afaik point of scale transferrable if qualified at the time.

A Science degree, YES. A B'ed aka concurrent science teacher ed degree, NO

It depends on the concurrent degree. In some colleges the course is built as a 3 year chemistry degree with the final being pure education. You can leave after 3 years with a level 7 chemistry degree. If you want you can go back you can do 4th year chemistry to get your level 8. You can't do this in UL.

You can do your NQT training in the UK no bother. Hundreds do it every year due to lack of jobs here. You just need to make sure the school is recognised by the teaching council.

shopper2011

Corkgirl18 wrote:

You can do your NQT training in the UK no bother. Hundreds do it every year due to lack of jobs here. You just need to make sure the school is recognised by the teaching council.

Can still take upto 7 yrs for full teaching council recognition with science degree. That and the low salary is main reason IMO for lack of STEM teachers.

rainbowtrout

shopper2011 wrote: »

Can still take upto 7 yrs for full teaching council recognition with science degree. That and the low salary is main reason IMO for lack of STEM teachers.

You're spouting a serious amount of bullshit on this thread. A teacher can work after they have completed their PME/teacher training degree. They can register with the Teaching Council. They can earn a salary as a teacher. They are considered fully registered when they have completed the 300 hours etc, but it doesn't stop them from working as a teacher and earning money.

doc_17

The Teaching Council have sent an email around this evening relating to teacher shortage. It was an example of talking without saying anything. I believe the problem is extremely difficult and rapidly getting worse.

SligoBrewer

He says there is 90,000 registered teachers, there are less than 60,000 in our schools.
Where are the missing 30,000?

Mardy Bum

SligoBrewer wrote: »

He says there is 90,000 registered teachers, there are less than 60,000 in our schools.
Where are the missing 30,000?

It would include retirees who mark and sub.

strawberrie

And it includes those who are teaching abroad but maintaining their registration to save reapplying when they return.