The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

BonnieSituation

Sonny678 wrote: »

So is soccer before 1980 irrelevant no best no Pele
is rugby prior before 1980 irrelevant no Lions team 74
Is politics prior to 1980 irrelevant no easter rising no famine no world war 2 no Romans
Was life before 1980 irrelevant.

Unbelievable. I actually saw Barney Rock walking through a Meath Street earlier today. If I knew the above earlier I would have said to Barney your just relevant Barney coz you won an All Ireland in 1983.

Football prior to 1980 is irrelevant.
I have never uttered the following saying in my life to any person before but after reading the above comment I utter word I thought I would never say

Omg omg OMG

Practically irrelevant... In certain senses...

The Talking Bread

Nidgeweasel wrote: »

During that little purple patch of 4 points? They got 1 themselves.

https://youtu.be/WEWo-JKgqWs

Full game there for anybody who wants to educate themselves. Mayo the better team

I think you are construing my point in a different sense to what I am getting at

The Talking Bread

BonnieSituation wrote: »

How anyone thought Mayo were the better team that day is beyond me.

Good jesus.

...blanket defence...

That wasn't the point of my post. I was just picking up on the point of the "scoreless for such and such minutes"

The Talking Bread

Sonny678

Still didn't answer my question.

If Dublin greatness is question response is no response. Or 1 line smart comments

I understand Dubs are protective of their great team. But we need to be protective of all great teams and past players. We cannot wipe away 100 years of teams and games and players to make the latest flavour of the month greatest.
I don't think Dublin are the greatest team ever. I don't think Dublin are the second greatst team ever. I wouldn't have them in the top 5 greatest teams. I would have them as the greatest team of the last 30 years. And the best team in this decade by a mile. A credit to their county and clubs.
But I do think the media always hype up Dublin and there is very very strong reluctance by ex players and pundits to criticise Dublin. They seem to be above criticism.
I still think these three points are worth consideration when valuing this teams worth
1 This is the worst leinster championship ever
2 How competitive is this era when so many football strong counties are going through worst period in decade
3 Dublin don't have to face a multiple All Ireland winner
4 Dublin have yet to deliver a big final performance. Every win has been hanging on for dear life in injury time
All facts.

Sephiral

BonnieSituation wrote: »

2014?

2012. The absolute classic that ended 0-8 to 0-6. Karl Lacey was probably the best defender in the country at the time and went off injured after being taken out of it off the ball.

Sonny678

Will any Dub address this stat.
Dublin havent delivered a great All.Ireland final performance since 1977.
Very strange.
Hammered by Kerry in 78 79 and beat them comfortably in 84 85.
83 doesn't count as it was not a football match but a dirtfest of violence
Dreadful v Donegal in 92 and Down 94.
Fell over the line in 95.
And 2011 2013 2016 and 2017 won by 1 point. Best performance was 2015 and Kerry were piss poor one of worst kerry finals performances ever. Yet Dublin still weren't convincing .
Why have Dublin not performed a great performance in their last 12 All Ireland finals.
They have won 5 of the last 6 by 1 point wins.
How can great is this team when they have yet to deliver one standout final performance in 5 finals. And don't say Mayo are great. Dublin have not played well in the last 12 finals not one since 77
No one will.adrres this from Dublin. I'm not making this up. This is all factual.

raiders11

Sonny678 wrote: »

I'm not saying they were a bad team. They were a terrific team. Wonderful achievement in 2012. The defence system was a sight to behold . And McGuiness is a genius.
But the 1992 te was better. 92 team had to face Derry the 1993 All Ireland champions and Down All Ireland champions 91 and 94 year in year out. 3 All Ireland winners in 1 provience. The competitiveness of matchs in Ulster in the early 90s were savage. Proper battles between some of the greatest players teams players and managers to ever play the game. 1994 first round game Down V Derry was as close to a perfect game of football as I ever saw.

The 2012 winning Donegal team had to beat 3 out of the last 4 previous AI winners just to make the final, (Tyrone 2008, Kerry 2009, Cork 2010) and throw in Down too, beaten AI finalists in 2010.... No mean feat to beat them 4 teams to just make the final.

Derry beating Down in the Ulster 1992 semi was a blessing as I do not think we would have beaten Down in the Ulster Final..

Sonny678

raiders11 wrote:

The 2012 winning Donegal team had to beat 3 out of the last 4 previous AI winners just to make the final, (Tyrone 2008, Kerry 2009, Cork 2010) and throw in Down too, beaten AI finalists in 2010.... No mean feat to beat them 4 teams to just make the final.

raiders11 wrote:

Derry beating Down in the Ulster 1992 semi was a blessing as I do not think we would have beaten Down in the Ulster Final..

raiders11 wrote:

The 2012 winning Donegal team had to beat 3 out of the last 4 previous AI winners just to make the final, (Tyrone 2008, Kerry 2009, Cork 2010) and throw in Down too, beaten AI finalists in 2010.... No mean feat to beat them 4 teams to just make the final.

raiders11 wrote:

Derry beating Down in the Ulster 1992 semi was a blessing as I do not think we would have beaten Down in the Ulster Final..

No doubt Donegal under McGuiness were sight to behold. I just think 92 team being the first was better. Donegal winning in 92 would be similar to Sligo winning in 2022. Also better players on 92 team. 2012 had 5 or exceptional footballers. It was more the system that McGuiness made that made team the most difficult team to beat in Ireland after the Dubs in this decade.

He had a plan. And it worked brilliantly. But it was not a team it more a movement or a cult . I mean that in a good way. I have rarely seen a county players and supporters come together under 1 man . McGuiness was Donegal.. it was like he looked into the counties soul and knew what made Donegal tick. It was pure genius.

The only time I have seen counties under 1 man before similar to 2012 was loughnane with Clare in 95 and Griffin with Wexford in 96.
McGuiness was a charismatic intelligent very driven modern man. Who was a tactical genius in the modern age.

Donegal in all those games were a sight to behold in 12. I was at Kerry game and Donegal were not going to be beaten that day. You could see kerry been knocked back and back up the field. Every kerry attack was met with a wall of Donegal players that were so driven Kerry would had to have weapons to pass. Brillant defensive display.

Sonny678

Still no answer to the fact that Dublin do not play well underperform in finals. 12 finals since Dublin last great performance in a final in 1977. This suspondly the greatest team ever cannot change that trend. They have continued the thread with 1 point wins. And hanging on in injury time after another sub standard performance.
No comments anyone about Dublin failure to perform for 4 decades in 12 finals. What is the problem for the Dubs?. Does the hype get to then. Do the Dubs not have the temperament like kerry and Kilkenny to turn on the style on the big day of a final.
Any comments r we just ignoring another fact that questions the New Zealand of gaelic football.

shockframe

Sonny678 wrote: »

Still no answer to the fact that Dublin do not play well underperform in finals. 12 finals since Dublin last great performance in a final in 1977. This suspondly the greatest team ever cannot change that trend. They have continued the thread with 1 point wins. And hanging on in injury time after another sub standard performance.
No comments anyone about Dublin failure to perform for 4 decades in 12 finals. What is the problem for the Dubs?. Does the hype get to then. Do the Dubs not have the temperament like kerry and Kilkenny to turn on the style on the big day of a final.
Any comments r we just ignoring another fact that questions the New Zealand of gaelic football.

Have this Dublin team been playing that long? Wow

Todd Gack

Sonny678 wrote: »

No comments anyone about Dublin failure to perform for 4 decades in 12 finals. What is the problem for the Dubs?. Does the hype get to then. Do the Dubs not have the temperament like kerry and Kilkenny to turn on the style on the big day of a final

Dublin have won their last 6 finals, the current crop all 5 of theirs, that isn't failing to perform however much you'd like it to be. This anti-Dublin bias is quite amusing.

shockframe

My top 10 since the Kerry golden years side.

1 Dublin 2010-17
Easy enough one to start with. Probably 2nd best of all time behind Kerry 75-87. Win the next 2 and they could be the best of all time.
They might go down as the best side never to lose an all Ireland final yet. Remarkable they haven’t lost at least 1.

2 Tyrone 2001-09
At their best a wonderful side. Beat almost everyone in the decade and won the big ‘ulster’ clash of the 00s against Armagh in 2005. Not retaining the title goes against them but like Down in the 60s a perfect finals record against Kerry pushes them up. You’d forget how young they were in 2003. Taking the under 21s they won in 2000+01 and the minor of 2001 they had a flawless decade really. Considering those under 21s backboned the seniors you could argue that both Tyrone and Kerry won 5 all Irelands that decade!

3 Kerry 1997-2010
Fine side and made it look ridiculously easy in full flow. Some outstanding individual talent and only one of few sides to win 5 all Irelands in a decade. They are slightly behind tyrone for not beating them that decade and also they lost the most finals of any great side.

4 Meath 1987-91
Better as a team maybe than individuals but the first great team post micko’s Kerry. Due to their decline now you would forget just how hard they were to beat. The team everyone loved to hate. O Rourke would be worthy of any team or era.Boylan a remarkable figure in the game. One of 2 teams in my top 10 not to be beat Kerry but didn’t play them. Would have beaten them anyway I believe.Winning 2 league titles puts them ahead of the team of 1996-2001. Were on the slide after the epic 1991 campaign. Wonder will the same occur with the next team on the list?….

5 Mayo 2011-17
The odd one out here but easily the best side to never win the all Ireland. Even the story is the most well known GAA story internationally.The standout amount of compelling games they’ve been involved in is exhibit A in ‘modern football is not a bad game at all’. The skill levels under pressure when you watch them closer are staggering. Its no comfort to them but they remain the only time not to win an all Ireland but beat all the other major contenders in the era. Of course no all Ireland won but unreal in their consistency and changing perceptions of Mayo football as a soft team.

6 Cork 1987-96
Might upset Cork fans this. Not a team of great individuals save for the likes of Tompkins and O’Brien. Still the team responsible for breaking the great Kerry side and 4 all Ireland final appearances in a row winning back to back ensures greatness. Possibly left another all Ireland after them but 2 is a good haul. Unlike the 2010 side there was no question marks left as they beat all the major contenders. How Billy Morgan succeeded with such a hostile county board was astonishing.

7 Galway 1998-2001
A team admired than most others. The swashbuckling football of 1998 and the qualifier run of 2001 are as satisfying as anything else in football since 87. The talents of De Paor, Fallon, Donnellan, Joyce were glorious in those years. 2 wins and a draw from 4 all Irelands was excellent. The ease of which they beat Meath in 2001 was quite something. Why behind Mayo? The fade after 2001 when a lot of key players were hitting 25 was one of footballs big disappointments. They were washed away with the changing of the guard in the 00s. There was possibly more in them. Mayo endured almost twice as long.

8 Meath 1996-01
Behind the 87-91 team but a fine side in its own right. Giles and Geraghty as good as footballers as there has ever been. Leinster finalists 5 out of 6 years and might have gone further in 97 only for the Kildare trilogy.Losing badly to galway in 2001 takes the shine off a bit. Never lost to Dublin either and inflicted the joint heaviest defeat to a Kerry team in championship history. That alone would nearly put them on the list.

9 Donegal 2011-14
The least liked side of recent years stylewise I’d say but you have to have them here. Like the recent Atletico Madrid team. Beat all the big teams (the 2012 campign was brilliant) and the last side to beat Dublin in championship in perhaps Mcguinness’ finest hour.Losing the final after and the terrible show in 2013 brings them down somewhat as would less accomplished players. They are ahead of Armagh for their capability to win big games. Also how they went from no hopers in 2012 to all Ireland champions. When cork won in 2010 who would have thought Donegal would storm the castle. There had been hints of all Irelands with others. Almost next to none with Donegal.

10 Down 1991-94
The team that led the way in Ulster’s resurgence in the 90s. Again super individuals and beat Meath in one of the finest finals played. No defeat in a final. Didnt need to be asked twice! Only the current Dublin team can boast that.Last team to beat Dublin in a final too. Outside of all Irelands there isn’t all that much to go on. Was a bit full duck or no dinner with them. Their routes to all Ireland glory seem less demanding than others too.

The Talking Bread

Sonny678 wrote: »

Still no answer to the fact that Dublin do not play well underperform in finals. 12 finals since Dublin last great performance in a final in 1977. This suspondly the greatest team ever cannot change that trend. They have continued the thread with 1 point wins. And hanging on in injury time after another sub standard performance.
No comments anyone about Dublin failure to perform for 4 decades in 12 finals. What is the problem for the Dubs?. Does the hype get to then. Do the Dubs not have the temperament like kerry and Kilkenny to turn on the style on the big day of a final.
Any comments r we just ignoring another fact that questions the New Zealand of gaelic football.

The more you keep asking for people to reply to you, the likely it is that they will do so...............



Maybe people are sick of answering because you simply won't agree.............


PS, I am not a Dub fan btw!

davedanon

Todd Gack wrote: »

Dublin have won their last 6 finals, the current crop all 5 of theirs, that isn't failing to perform however much you'd like it to be. This anti-Dublin bias is quite amusing.

Yeah, the even-handed mask is slipping now. Dublin have SO MANY unfair advantages that it's not enough to win 6 finals in a row. They have to win by annihilating other teams. I'm sure he's making other points, but to be honest his posts are so badly spelled and punctuated that I'm finding them impossible to get through.

Barnavave

Haven't read the entire thread, but this current Dublin side are up there with the great Kerry team of the 70s/80s and I have no doubt that they will surpass them in the next few years. Can't see anyone stopping them doing five in a row, in fact if it wasn't for a freakish result against Donegal they'd have already done it.

Sonny678

Not hammer team just deliver a very good all round performance
2011 Kerry were the better til final minutes
2013 A poor final average by both teams saved by the brilliance of Brogan .
2015 Best performance but patchy. Kerrys worst performance in a final since Offaly in 1972
2016 Mayo could have won both days. Dublin were not great either days
2017 Mayo could have won. Dublin not great again
I have kept it simple as I can . But people don't want to accept facts. This is what happened . People's response no the facts are wrong. The truth is wrong . I know people are protective about teams . But to say my mask is falling because I criticise a team. Is unfair and wierd. You don't know who I am. I might be decent bloke or could be a bollox. That's irrelevant. The fact is No team is above criticism. I am not entitled to ask a few questions . I have based everything I said on stat after stat. Would that be fair to say. My mask slipping , what kind of millennial gibberish is that.


PS I know my spelling and punctuality is appalling. I just lose the run of myself and rant and rave about the sport I love .
Before I know it I have written 500 words of repeated ramblings on 1997 leinster final.
This is a great Dublin team. And I don't mean to be disrespectful to one of the greatest teams ever. But I have viewpoint based on a love and passion for great players and teams from the present and the past. I mean no offence. Just saying what I believe.

ThunbergsAreGo

Sonny678 wrote: »

Not hammer team just deliver a very good all round performance
2011 Kerry were the better til final minutes
2013 A poor final average by both teams saved by the brilliance of Brogan .
2015 Best performance but patchy. Kerrys worst performance in a final since Offaly in 1972
2016 Mayo could have won both days. Dublin were not great either days
2017 Mayo could have won. Dublin not great again
I have kept it simple as I can . But people don't want to accept facts. This is what happened . People's response no the facts are wrong. The truth is wrong . I know people are protective about teams . But to say my mask is falling because I criticise a team. Is unfair and wierd. No team is above criticism. I am not entitled to ask a few questions . I have based everything I said on stat after stat. Would that be fair to say. My mask slipping , what kind of millennial gibberish is that.

There are two sides to it, some say the sign of a great team is winning ugly and the Dublin team does that in finals.

On the other hand I have been waiting since 2013 for the shackles to come off and for them to play to their potential in a final. Not sure what it is, some would say mental weakness but then the fact they always find a way to win trumps that.

Also need to be remembered were very good second half on Sunday and had to be to beat a Mayo team playing close to full potential. 11 points from play (I think) is very impressive

When was the last good performance in an All Ireland final?

downthemiddle

Sonny678 wrote: »

I think 2012 was a massive chance for Mayo. No Dublin or kerry in the final. But Donegal did what Kerry did to Mayo in 04 and 06. Blow them away in the first 15 mins. Which they did.

But after that the game settled and Mayo played well . Mayo were actually the better team after the first 15 mins. But the damage was done in the first few mins.

Donegal were very well.organisd . A brillant system under a terrific modern tactician manager. But without that system I think there were weaknesses in that Donegal outfit. Look how they were slaughtered the following year by Mayo. That was highly unusual for reigning champions.

Of All the Ulster winner in the last 25 years I would rate 2012 team the weakest team. The 92 Donegal Team was stronger. So was Tyrone and Armagh and down teams.

I think 2o12 was an example of charismatic individual and county merging as one. Like a movement our a cult for the want of a better word. Donegal players and supporters got behind MCGUINESS and it just clicked . Similar to Loughnane with Clare in 95 and Griffin with Wexford in 96.
It was facinating to watch. McGuiness is one of most interesting GAA figures of recent times. Donegal is a fine county with friendly charming people. It is quite a unique county. I think McGuiness seemed to get the whole county to rise up in that period. Similar to Loughnane and Griffin.

Anyone who thinks that Mayo were the better team for 60 mins in the 2012 final is either delusional or has a very limited knowledge of football. Donegal controlled that game from the first minute to the last. They comfortably absorbed everything Mayo threw at them. Mayo never got within three points of them. For all the talk of systems what Donegal did was control games when in a winning position. ( see last Sunday for a prime example of failure to do so) They never left themselves vulnerable to being sucker punched and had a group of players who consistently made the correct decisions. It was one of the most impressive AI wins of recent times considering the opposition they beat along the way. There was weaknesses in that Donegal team? Name a team without weaknesses. What that Donegal team did better than most was ensure that they identified weaknesses in the opposition and ruthlessly exposed them.
Anyway I'll leave you now to wind up a some unsuspecting Dubs, I'm sure you'll catch a few.

Sonny678

To the question asked above regarding the last good performance in a final below are

Answers below All good performances and some even better
Tyrone in 2003 2005 and 2008 finals
Kerry in 2004 and 2006 final
Kerry in 2007 final
Galway in 2001 final
Meath in 1999 final
Galway in 1998 final
Down in 1994 final
Donegal in 1992 final
Meath in 1987 final
Kerry in 84 and 85 final
Kerry in 81 final
Kerry in 78 and 79 final
Dublin in 76 and 77 final
Kerry in 75 final
Cork in 73 final
Offaly in 72 final
Kerry in 70 final
Down in 68 final
Galway in 64 and 66 final
Down in 1960 final
Dublin in 1958 final
Kerry in 1955 final
Meath in 1954 final
Mayo in 1951 final
Meath in 1949 final
Cavan in 1947 and 1948 final

All best performances in finals after World War 2

Sonny678

downthemiddle wrote:

Anyone who thinks that Mayo were the better team for 60 mins in the 2012 final is either delusional or has a very limited knowledge of football. Donegal controlled that game from the first minute to the last. They comfortably absorbed everything Mayo threw at them. Mayo never got within three points of them. For all the talk of systems what Donegal did was control games when in a winning position. ( see last Sunday for a prime example of failure to do so) They never left themselves vulnerable to being sucker punched and had a group of players who consistently made the correct decisions. It was one of the most impressive AI wins of recent times considering the opposition they beat along the way. There was weaknesses in that Donegal team? Name a team without weaknesses. What that Donegal team did better than most was ensure that they identified weaknesses in the opposition and ruthlessly exposed them. Anyway I'll leave you now to wind up a some unsuspecting Dubs, I'm sure you'll catch a few.

I have said Donegal 2012 were a brillant team. With a genius of a manager. One of the best defences to come out of Ulster ever. A credit to their county. Brillant throughout 2012. I would absolutely love Meath to have a team now as good as that brillant Donegal Team.
Performance in 2014 v Dublin was a win for the ages. Never to be forgotten.

ThunbergsAreGo

Sonny678 wrote: »

To the question asked above regarding the last good performance in a final below are

Answers below All good performances and some even better
Tyrone in 2003 2005 and 2008 finals
Kerry in 2004 and 2006 final
Kerry in 2007 final
Galway in 2001 final
Meath in 1999 final
Galway in 1998 final
Down in 1994 final
Donegal in 1992 final
Cork in 1990 final
Meath in 1987 final
Kerry in 84 and 86 final
Kerry in 81 final
Kerry in 78 and 79 final
Dublin in 76 and 77 final
Kerry in 75 final
Cork in 73 final
Offaly in 72 final
Kerry in 70 final
Down in 68 final
Galway in 64 and 66 final
Down in 1960 final
Dublin in 1958 final
Kerry in 1955 final
Meath in 1954 final
Cavan in 1952 final
Mayo in 1951 final
Meath in 1949 final
Cavan in 1947 and 1948 final

All best performances in finals after World War 2

So almost 10 years ago?

Sonny678

naughtb4 wrote:

So almost 10 years ago?

Yes Tyrone performances v Kerry were the best football machine I ever saw. Not the best team. But most drilled and organised football machine I ever saw. The way they had that great Kerry team in a mental vice grip was extraordinary. 2005 was a brillant final. Between two all time great teams. One of the best finals ever.

Utopia Parkway

shockframe wrote: »

My top 10 since the Kerry golden years side.

1 Dublin 2010-17
Easy enough one to start with. Probably 2nd best of all time behind Kerry 75-87. Win the next 2 and they could be the best of all time.
They might go down as the best side never to lose an all Ireland final yet. Remarkable they haven’t lost at least 1.

2 Tyrone 2001-09
At their best a wonderful side. Beat almost everyone in the decade and won the big ‘ulster’ clash of the 00s against Armagh in 2005. Not retaining the title goes against them but like Down in the 60s a perfect finals record against Kerry pushes them up. You’d forget how young they were in 2003. Taking the under 21s they won in 2000+01 and the minor of 2001 they had a flawless decade really. Considering those under 21s backboned the seniors you could argue that both Tyrone and Kerry won 5 all Irelands that decade!

3 Kerry 1997-2010
Fine side and made it look ridiculously easy in full flow. Some outstanding individual talent and only one of few sides to win 5 all Irelands in a decade. They are slightly behind tyrone for not beating them that decade and also they lost the most finals of any great side.

4 Meath 1987-91
Better as a team maybe than individuals but the first great team post micko’s Kerry. Due to their decline now you would forget just how hard they were to beat. The team everyone loved to hate. O Rourke would be worthy of any team or era.Boylan a remarkable figure in the game. One of 2 teams in my top 10 not to be beat Kerry but didn’t play them. Would have beaten them anyway I believe.Winning 2 league titles puts them ahead of the team of 1996-2001. Were on the slide after the epic 1991 campaign. Wonder will the same occur with the next team on the list?….

5 Mayo 2011-17
The odd one out here but easily the best side to never win the all Ireland. Even the story is the most well known GAA story internationally.The standout amount of compelling games they’ve been involved in is exhibit A in ‘modern football is not a bad game at all’. The skill levels under pressure when you watch them closer are staggering. Its no comfort to them but they remain the only time not to win an all Ireland but beat all the other major contenders in the era. Of course no all Ireland won but unreal in their consistency and changing perceptions of Mayo football as a soft team.

6 Cork 1987-96
Might upset Cork fans this. Not a team of great individuals save for the likes of Tompkins and O’Brien. Still the team responsible for breaking the great Kerry side and 4 all Ireland final appearances in a row winning back to back ensures greatness. Possibly left another all Ireland after them but 2 is a good haul. Unlike the 2010 side there was no question marks left as they beat all the major contenders. How Billy Morgan succeeded with such a hostile county board was astonishing.

7 Galway 1998-2001
A team admired than most others. The swashbuckling football of 1998 and the qualifier run of 2001 are as satisfying as anything else in football since 87. The talents of De Paor, Fallon, Donnellan, Joyce were glorious in those years. 2 wins and a draw from 4 all Irelands was excellent. The ease of which they beat Meath in 2001 was quite something. Why behind Mayo? The fade after 2001 when a lot of key players were hitting 25 was one of footballs big disappointments. They were washed away with the changing of the guard in the 00s. There was possibly more in them. Mayo endured almost twice as long.

8 Meath 1996-01
Behind the 87-91 team but a fine side in its own right. Giles and Geraghty as good as footballers as there has ever been. Leinster finalists 5 out of 6 years and might have gone further in 97 only for the Kildare trilogy.Losing badly to galway in 2001 takes the shine off a bit. Never lost to Dublin either and inflicted the joint heaviest defeat to a Kerry team in championship history. That alone would nearly put them on the list.

9 Donegal 2011-14
The least liked side of recent years stylewise I’d say but you have to have them here. Like the recent Atletico Madrid team. Beat all the big teams (the 2012 campign was brilliant) and the last side to beat Dublin in championship in perhaps Mcguinness’ finest hour.Losing the final after and the terrible show in 2013 brings them down somewhat as would less accomplished players. They are ahead of Armagh for their capability to win big games. Also how they went from no hopers in 2012 to all Ireland champions. When cork won in 2010 who would have thought Donegal would storm the castle. There had been hints of all Irelands with others. Almost next to none with Donegal.

10 Down 1991-94
The team that led the way in Ulster’s resurgence in the 90s. Again super individuals and beat Meath in one of the finest finals played. No defeat in a final. Didnt need to be asked twice! Only the current Dublin team can boast that.Last team to beat Dublin in a final too. Outside of all Irelands there isn’t all that much to go on. Was a bit full duck or no dinner with them. Their routes to all Ireland glory seem less demanding than others too.

Still don't think you can realistically rate a team that has won zero All-Ireland's over some that have won at least two. Whatever about one.

I know Darragh O'Se said Mayo were the second best side of the past 30 years or something but I just cannot agree with that. It seems like recency bias and doesn't give enough credit to sides like Tyrone 03-08, Kerry in the 00's, Galway 98-01, etc. All super teams who would be even better today under current modern training and physical conditioning methods.

Ultimately truly great teams have to win titles.

Sonny678

Utopia Parkway wrote:

I know Darragh O'Se said Mayo were the second best side of the past 30 years or something but I just cannot agree with that. It seems like recency bias and doesn't give enough credit to sides like Tyrone 03-08, Kerry in the 00's, Galway 98-01, etc. All super teams who would be even better today under current modern training and physical conditioning methods.

Utopia Parkway wrote:

Still don't think you can realistically rate a team that has won zero All-Ireland's over some that have won at least two. Whatever about one.

Utopia Parkway wrote:

Ultimately truly great teams have to win titles.

Agree . Quality list. Cannot complain. On the ball with most teams. The only thing I would is move Mesth 87 88 Galway 98 01 and Down 01 and 04 a bit up the list. And yes remove Mayo off the list.
Mayo are the greatest team to never win Sam. But I still a forward line of Carr Blaney Mason McCarten Whiterall and Linden was better then current Mayo forward line. And so was forward line of Fallon Donnellan Finnegan Savage and two Joyce's.
But that's just a personal choice. Excellent top list all the same.

Beechwoodspark

C__MC wrote: »

This current Dublin team won the league in the 2013, 14, 15 & 16. They also made the final in 2017. Some going. They also went 30 odd games undefeated as well. I would put them
Up there with the kerry team of the 70/80s

Disagree. Why? Opposition is very poor compared to previous eras. Dubs have an unfair advantage and they know it...it's why the great jimmy Gavin is so modest

Beechwoodspark

Sonny678 wrote: »

Yes Tyrone performances v Kerry were the best football machine I ever saw. Not the best team. But most drilled and organised football machine I ever saw. The way they had that great Kerry team in a mental vice grip was extraordinary. 2005 was a brillant final. Between two all time great teams. One of the best finals ever.

Agree. Either of those teams would have no trouble with the current lauded dubs

Sonny678

Beechwoodspark wrote:

Agree. Either of those teams would have no trouble with the current lauded dubs

I agreed. Now I'm going to open up a massive can of worms and watch the reaction and I will be criticised for this from many sections of the board.

Say you had the Kerry Tyrone and Armagh teams 00s around now. Yes Dublin would still win the most All Irelands. Because Dublin team is a better all round team then any of the above. But I could see Tyrone team 03 - 08 well able for Dublin and could beat them . Kerry of the 00s is much superior to current kerry crop.and I could not see them lose 5 matchs in a row v Dublin.

Dublin would still win the majority but surely that Kerry team would win 1 or 2. I couldn't see Armagh team beating Dublin. But they would give them a serious test. If all the above where around now I could see Tyrone winning two All Irelands Kerrys winning 2 and Dublin winning three. I cannot prove this. And their will be outcry from the Dubs . But I definatly see Tyrone and Kerry more then given Dublin a game.

Say the Galway team of 98 01 where around now instead of Mayo. And the Galway team played Dublin in 4 finals. Surely Galway would have won 1 final. Dublin still win win 3 or 4 but that Galway team would win 1 if they were around now.

Say the Meath team of 96 and 99 was around now. I don't think Dublin would have 12 of 13 leinsters. They wouldn't be hammering that Meath team like current crop out the door. I could see that Meath winning a leinster title or 2.and yes Dublin would still have 4 All Ireland . But I could see Meath winning 1 All.Ireland in the current period.

For me 5 All Ireland for Dublin is more down to uncompetitive championship where so many great counties are going through hard times. Meath are having their worst decade since the 30s. I think 3 or 4 All Irelands wins would be morel likely for Dublin if they had to face teams like Tyrone and Kerry 00s and Meath and Galway late 90s.

Dublin would still win the majority of titles as they are still the greatest team of the last 30 years. But th5r worst leinster championship ever, the worst kerry team in decades and so many great counties in a bad state eg Meath Down Armagh Derry Cork Laois Offaly Kildare Galway. Is help to Dublin . Definitely not a hinderance.
I cannot prove this so it quite foolish of me to say. But I do believe it.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

For me 5 All Ireland for Dublin is more down to uncompetitive championship where so many great counties are going through hard times. Meath are having their worst decade since the 30s. I think 3 or 4 All Irelands wins would be morel likely for Dublin if they had to face teams like Tyrone and Kerry 00s and Meath and Galway late 90s.

They were good Kerry teams up as far as 2015.

In 2011 they has load of lads who had a few years left in them with about four AIs Gooch was only 28 then. They've added JOD and Geany so they had a good crop

People were calling Kerry great in 2015. They've become crap in some people's eyes because they have been beaten by Mayo.

The truth is different imo. Kerry are a good team, they were a very good team in 2011,12,13,14
Mayo are an excellent team better than any Mayo team I've seen been beaten by Kerry in the past.

The Donegal team were very good they went at it like crazy and messed themselves up for 2013 but 2011 and 2012 they were a serious team and interestingly enough for that period of time I think they would have given the Meath team of 1990 1996 a beating but overall Meath were better but not for that 2 year period.

That Donegal team of 2012 reminded me a lot of that Meath team from N McGee , Lacey, Gallagher , Mcfadden all matching up with a Meath great. Meath didn't have a Michael Murphy though.
They also got in your face like no other team

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

I cannot prove this so it quite foolish of me to say. But I do believe it.

You've made some interesting points, they will be very popular with some here, some flutes too.

Overall I agree with your assessment of Leinster.
I'll go one step further and be even more unpopular.

When Dublin and Mayo dipped the other counties picked up provincial titles and didn't get over the line.
Westmeath, Offaly, Kildare, Laois.

They all needed both Dublin and Meath to be relatively poor at the same time to win a provincial title after 96.

The Talking Bread

Stoner wrote: »

You've made some interesting points, they will be very popular with some here, some flutes too.

Overall I agree with your assessment of Leinster.
I'll go one step further and be even more unpopular.

When Dublin and Mayo dipped the other counties picked up provincial titles and didn't get over the line.
Westmeath, Offaly, Kildare, Laois.

They all needed both Dublin and Meath to be relatively poor at the same time to win a provincial title after 96.

There is a big difference between Kildare 97-01 (02) and the likes of Offaly's, Laois' and Westmeath's fortunes in the noughties. And using Dublin's "dip" as a measurement of how good/average they were is a bit insulting.

I mean, people are talking about Galway 98 to 01 being one of the best teams over the decades and Kildare lost to them by a few points having beat 2 more of these so called "greatest teams" along the way in Meath and Kerry

manofwisdom

Sonny678 wrote: »

No doubt Donegal under McGuiness were sight to behold. I just think 92 team being the first was better. Donegal winning in 92 would be similar to Sligo winning in 2022. .

Donegal won U21 All Irelands in 1982, 1987 A. Molloy, D. Reid, M. McHugh, C. Mulgrew, J. McMullan,J.J. Doherty, P. Hegarty,B. McGowan, M. Boyle came from those U21 winning teams and Donegal seniors won Ulster in 1990. I don't see the similarities with Sligo there.

Good thread very informative. The facts are here and while a great team the current Dublin team are not the greatest team ever.

Stoner

The Talking Bread wrote:

There is a big difference between Kildare 97-01 (02) and the likes of Offaly's, Laois' and Westmeath's fortunes in the noughties. And using Dublin's "dip" as a measurement of how good they were is a bit insulting.

Fair enough.
Bit Dublin were not great then, and none of the teams I mentioned went on to win the AI

downthemiddle

manofwisdom wrote: »

Donegal won U21 All Irelands in 1982, 1987 A. Molloy, D. Reid, M. McHugh, C. Mulgrew, J. McMullan,J.J. Doherty, P. Hegarty,B. McGowan, M. Boyle came from those U21 winning teams and Donegal seniors won Ulster in 1990. I don't see the similarities with Sligo there.

Good thread very informative. The facts are here and while a great team the current Dublin team are not the greatest team ever.

Those teams also contained Matt Gallagher, Paul Carr, Sylvester Maguire, John Cunningham, Barry Cunningham and Tommy Ryan from the 92 squad.

Sonny678

Stoner
I agree with what you say. But Kerry 2014 is still the poorest kerry team to win an All Ireland ever along with 97 team. The 00s kerry team , Kerry team of 70s and 80s, kerry team of the double 69 to 70, kerry team of 60 -65, kerry team of 58 and Kerry teams of the 30s and 40s were all better then 2014 team. 2014 team would a great team in any other county. But in a county like kerry 2014 is one of the weakest of the 37 All Irelands have kerry won.

They are only kerry teams that did not win a second All Ireland. ALso they lost to Dublin 5 times in row in the championship. For a county like kerry who only lost twice to Dublin (76 77) between 1944 and 2011 , that is poor for a Kerry team

Donegal 2012 was better then 87 88. Well Lacey was brillant centre back. One of the best I have seen. But the rest of defenders wouldn't have touched O Malley O Connell Lyons. McEntee and Hayes was stronger partnership then Gallagher and midfield. Yes Mcfadden and Murphy are top class forward. Murphy is special talent. A captain at 21 is sign of greatness.

But Sorry O Rourke Stafford Flynn the best full forward line of the last 35 years and one of the best ever. Only Egan Liston and Sheedy were better. Where on a different level.

I cannot see how a Donegal team that played in 2 finals is better then a Meath team that played in 5 including 1 replay. Meath had to play Cork greatest team. A Cork team that found it near impossible to beat Meath in game after game. A team in 5 years between 86 to 91 played Dublin 9 times and was defeated 1 time. The greatest record any team has had v Dublin ever. And we still haven't mentioned 91. How Donegal 12 is better then Meath 87 88. Is a mystery. At their peak in 88 in a league final against the third best team in the country Dublin they won a national league div 1 final with 14 men for all the game by 9 points. Beat that.

And to say Donegal 12 was better then Meath 96 99. I think that does not ring true.

Meath 96 was the youngest team to win Sam ever along with Kerry 75. Came from.nowwhere to win Sam..Carlow were in many people eyes in 96 favs to beat Meath in the first round of the championship ship. Meath including replays played in 4 All Ireland finals winning 2. Donegal play in 2 finals winning 1.

Fay O Connell were better defenders then Donegal had. McDermont was better then Gallagher.

But your Murphy point is completely wrong. Meath hadn't player like Michael Murphy in 96 99. Meaths forward line was Dowd Giles Geraghty Kelly Reilly Murphy.
Gerathy was the best wing forward in Ireland in 96 and best full forward in Ireland in 99. He also won all star at wing back in 1994. Diarmaid Connolly would be a poor man's Graham Geraghty. Would Gerathy not be as good as Michael Murphy.

What about Trevor Giles 2 time footballer of the year footballer of the year at 21. Between 96 and 99 Giles and Michael Donnellan where the two best footballers in Ireland. Along with Blaney and B McGuigan Giles is the best player maker of last 40 years. And what about Ollie Murphy was he as good as Michael Murphy. Ollie Murphy was the best corner forward in Ireland between 99 and 01. At his peak Ollie was unmarkable.

Ok maybe Listen Donegal night have had better defence and midfield and that could be questionable but Meath forward in the late 90s when it was on fire it blew teams with breadtaking champagne football.Meath had a much better forwards lines.

For example performance like Tyrone 96 Dublin 97 and 99. Offaly been beaten by 15 and 22 points in 98 and 99. The best Offaly team of the last 30 years. Offaly were the reigning leinster champions and national league div 1 champions in 98 (Offaly s first and only league title) when Meath hammered them.

Kildare 97 second game the game of decade. Another Meath exhibition of football. And of course beating a Kerry team of Maurice Fitzgerald Seamus Moyihan Dara O Se Tomas O Se Dara O Cinnede Mike Frank Russell in 01. The reigning champions by 15 points in 2001. Kerrys worst defeat ever in the championship. When Donegal team 2012 beat All Ireland winning Kerry team by 15 points playing champagne football in an All Ireland semi final then and only then could they be counted better then a 2 time All Ireland winning Meath team 96 99.

Sonny678

manofwisdom wrote:

Donegal won U21 All Irelands in 1982, 1987 A. Molloy, D. Reid, M. McHugh, C. Mulgrew, J. McMullan,J.J. Doherty, P. Hegarty,B. McGowan, M. Boyle came from those U21 winning teams and Donegal seniors won Ulster in 1990. I don't see the similarities with Sligo there.

Yep I forgot that underage sucess..Apologies my mistake.
. Similarities with Sligo prior to 92 Donegal had very few titles . Only won first Ulster title in early 70s and second 1 in 83 and third in 1990. Donegal in the last 25 years have become a top GAA county. A football superpower. Before 92 for alot of Donegal history the county would have been more a Division 3 team. That's the similarity to Donegal and Sligo I mean.. I hope no offence is taken with that. Have family in Sligo and Donegal lovely charming people.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

And to say Donegal 12 was better then Meath 96 99. I think that does not ring true.

I'm not buying into this talk about "if the old team had the facilities of the current team etc"

For example I couldn't see jimmy keavney training the way the top guys do now

I think if that Meath team met that Donegal team each at their peak, I'd say Donegal would win with superior strength and conditioning. They were the most tenaious team I've ever seen and I couldn't see a forward of the 1990s getting much from them. I could however see Murphy at 14 in 2012 forum doing better against Lyons than Stafford on McGee with Durkan behind him. I understand how highly people in Meath hold Lyons, but he never marked anyone that size / strong with that engine.

Keepers are a lot better now too, possibly the most improved position.

Again I did say over all Meath were a better team and as you know I've put that team up on par with the greats in the past. I'm just adding that Donegal were a great team, noted for a very short period of time, it was unsustainable in a way.

I understand that outside of the Donegal forum not many would agree with me.

But something about Donegal did have Meath ring about yo it, Lacey and McHugh running at you dangerously like way Meath did, a kind of never say die attitude, also not widely liked, great tactical manager, even the same poxy colours !!!

For me that system and effort that Donegal put in for those couple of years has most likely not been seen before and hasn't been replicated since, possibly because it was too draining.

You have to note too how poor Kerry were from 1990 to 1996. People talk about how good they have been for 30 years but they were off the radar then.

Again on a bigger scale, a lot of other teams snaked in for a win (Dublin, Meath) or their first win in that period, Donegal, Derry nearly Tyrone all while Cork were keeping a poor Kerry team under wraps.

Sonny678

Stoner wrote:

You've made some interesting points, they will be very popular with some here, some flutes too.

Stoner wrote:

Overall I agree with your assessment of Leinster. I'll go one step further and be even more unpopular.

Stoner wrote:

When Dublin and Mayo dipped the other counties picked up provincial titles and didn't get over the line. Westmeath, Offaly, Kildare, Laois.

Stoner wrote:

They all needed both Dublin and Meath to be relatively poor at the same time to win a provincial title after 96.

Stoner
I have to disagree again
Kildare 98 -2000 were an excellent team..Best Kildare team of the last 90 years. A brillant defence of Dalton Lacey Ryan and Rainbow with Earley Lynch and McCreery in midfield. Kildare 98 defeated three All Ireland champions Dublin 95, Meath 96 and Kerry 97. They had one hand in the cup in 98. Where the best team in the first half in the final. But Donnellan and Galway ran riot in the second half. Their victory over Dublin in 2000 was one of the greatest leinster final comebacks ever. 2000 win is Kildare only victory over Dublin in a leinster final in 90 years. If Kildare had one quality forward they would have Sam in this period. Along with Roscomon late 70s and the current Mayo team Kildare 98 to 2000 could be one the best teams not to win an All.Ireland in thr last 50 years.

2 Offaly won their only leinster title in 30 years with champagne football in 97. They also won their first and only national league div 1 title in 98. The full forward line of Peter Brady Roy Malone Vinny Caffley was one of the best full forward lines in the country in the late 90s. They also knocked reigning All Ireland champions Meath out of the championship twice frist in 97 and second time in 2000

3 Westmeath 2003 were very good team. Meath played a few times at the time. And Westmeath at the time played a lovely brand of open attacking football. They were divsion 1 team in 03 04. Beaten Dublin well in 03. And their first win ever under Paudi was one of the GAA sucess stories of the time

4 Laois in 2004 played some brillant football. The display in 2004 final v kildare by their forwards is one of the best forward displays I ever saw in leinster final ever. They had a top class forward line of Fitzgerald Beano McDonald's Parkinson Munnelly. But probaly needed few more warriors in defence to win an All Ireland. But they did have the forwards to win an All Ireland.

Also Dublin were weak. I don't buy that. Dublin are never weak. Since 1974 Dublin every year have been in top 5 or 6 teams in country. In 2002 they could have won Sam. They were on fire throughout the championship. Ray Cosgrove was hitting massive scores. And only where defeated by Armagh in the semi final when Cosgrove hit a free against the bar to equalise the game with the last kick of game. Lyons teams seem to make great impact in first year Offaly 97 and Dublin 2002. But after the first season Tommy Lyons teams fade badly. I think Dublin had good players in the mid 00s but not a great manager.

Meath Yep by mid 00s the 90s team was gone and Boylan was on his way to retirement. Meath were in transition until Coyle kick started a new Meath team 07 to 10.

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

To the question asked above regarding the last good performance in a final below are

Answers below All good performances and some even better
Tyrone in 2003 2005 and 2008 finals
Kerry in 2004 and 2006 final
Kerry in 2007 final
Galway in 2001 final
Meath in 1999 final
Galway in 1998 final
Down in 1994 final
Donegal in 1992 final
Meath in 1987 final
Kerry in 84 and 85 final
Kerry in 81 final
Kerry in 78 and 79 final
Dublin in 76 and 77 final
Kerry in 75 final
Cork in 73 final
Offaly in 72 final
Kerry in 70 final
Down in 68 final
Galway in 64 and 66 final
Down in 1960 final
Dublin in 1958 final
Kerry in 1955 final
Meath in 1954 final
Mayo in 1951 final
Meath in 1949 final
Cavan in 1947 and 1948 final

All best performances in finals after World War 2

Tyrone 2003 - 5 points from play!!! FIVE points, and that is a good performance???
2005 - 1-12 from play
2008 - 1-13 from play

Kerry 2004 - 1-13 from play
2006 - 4-13 from play (now that's a good score)

Galway 2001 - 17 points in total!

Look, I know you don't rate this Dublin team, but please don't tell me 5 points from play by Tyrone in 2003 constitutes a good performance in an All-Ireland final.

Dublin got 1-13 from play this year, more than some of your great performances and up there with the rest.

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

Stoner
I agree with what you say. But Kerry 2014 is still the poorest kerry team to win an All Ireland ever along with 97 team. The 00s kerry team , Kerry team of 70s and 80s, kerry team of the double 69 to 70, kerry team of 60 -65, kerry team of 58 and Kerry teams of the 30s and 40s were all better then 2014 team. 2014 team would a great team in any other county. But in a county like kerry 2014 is one of the weakest of the 37 All Irelands have kerry won.

They are only kerry teams that did not win a second All Ireland. ALso they lost to Dublin 5 times in row in the championship. For a county like kerry who only lost twice to Dublin (76 77) between 1944 and 2011 , that is poor for a Kerry team

.

I see the narrative here, if the Kerry 2014 team is poor, then the Dublin team that beat them 5 times in a row is no great shakes.

On the other hand, if that Kerry team is at the level of a normal Kerry team, then this Dublin team is something very exceptional having beaten the Kerry team five teams in a row.

A question, if that Kerry team (and the Kerry teams of this decade) are so so poor, how come Cork haven't won Munster a few more times?

Sonny678

Stoner wrote:

I think if that Meath team met that Donegal team each at their peak, I'd say Donegal would win with superior strength and conditioning. They were the most tenaious team I've ever seen and I couldn't see a forward of the 1990s getting much from them. I could however see Murphy at 14 in 2012 forum doing better against Lyons than Stafford on McGee with Durkan behind him. I understand how highly people in Meath hold Lyons, but he never marked anyone that size / strong with that engine.

Stoner wrote:

Again on a bigger scale, a lot of other teams snaked in for a win (Dublin, Meath) or their first win in that period, Donegal, Derry nearly Tyrone all while Cork were keeping a poor Kerry team under wraps.

I think the fitness argument is baloney. So in ten years time teams will be better then now because they will be fitter. And in 20 or 30 years time teams will be more better as team get fitter and ftlter as sport science improves.

You can make the worst footballer in Ireland superfit. But you cannot turn the fittest person in Ireland into top player if they don't have football skill or talent.

Anyone can be very fit if they are healthy and determined enough. But to be a great footballer you need to have a god given gift of skill, talent and temperament. Natural football ability cannot be trained into a person by fitness. By being superfit. To kick a ball 50 or 60 metres over the bar or score a goal or use vision to pick out a pass. All the above depend on natural ability , God given ability.

So if Sean Purcell the master was around today and could avail of the modern fitness techniques would he be an all star of course he would. Fitness is easy to obtain. Football skill , talent, ability and temperament you either have that or you don't

When people talk about Meath 87 they always bring up Lyons. But never O Malley or O Connell two of the great defenders of all time. Both players would have excelled in todays foot ball. Liam Hayes another terrific athlete would have excelled. So would habe Bernard Flynn.

And Brian Stafford would stil also one of the greatest free taker ever. You need guile and temperament to be a great freetaker. Not to be able to take part in 20 trialtons a year. We live in a time where fitness is everything. How fit you are is how great you are. We are obsessed with fitness. When judging a great player skill and mindset temperament are the real difference. Anyone can get fit.

Kerry weren't strong but Cork Derry Meath Donegal had their greatest teams ever. Dublin also had very good team. While Down had one of the best teams to ever come our of Ulster. It was not a bad era in football. To say it was would be wrong. You also had good Laois Leitrim Clare Roscomon Mayo Tyrone teams in that period also.

Your right Donegal and Meath were similar teams..actually all the Ulster teams of Donegal Tyrone Armagh where similar to Meath. While Meath played a more kick and catch game and the above where more short passing. The characteristics of Ulster teams and Meath teams are very similar. I always thought the Meath of 80s and 90s had a big influence on Ulster football. That Donegal Tyrone and Armagh where the true heirs of Meath football. The same way Meath were the true heirs of Offaly football.
Offaly teams from.the 70s and 80s, Meath teams of 80s and 90s, Donegal, Armagh and Tyrone teams of the 00s and this decade where all rural awkward country men teams.

Who took on the big superpowers. All got a bad name becuase they had the audacity skill talent and bravery to take on the Dublins and Kerrys and Corks of this world.

So while Meath are not popular in Ulster..there are definate traits in common with both Ulster and Meath football.

Boylan was the first to bring half forwards back to defend with Gerathy and Giles
. Gerathy and Giles both were half backs in alot of their club career . Both where brought back to help out our defence in 96. The beginning of blanket defence began in 1996 with Meath.

Sonny678

Blanch 15522

Tyrone v Armagh was an incredibly intense final. Where two neighbouring counties went to war. But yes I made mistake I named 50 finals and I shouldn't have left 03 in. My mistake . Well done you. 03 shouldn't have been put on the list but when going through 80 years of finals in your head in five mins your going to get 1 or 2 wrong.
But one thing I haven't got wrong is Dublin and All Ireland finals
Still doesn't change Dublin haven't played a great performance in the last 12 finals. You don't seem to see that.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

A team in 5 years between 86 to 91 played Dublin 9 times and was defeated 1 time. The greatest record any team has had v Dublin ever

Good man Sonny



But look at it this way forget what appears to be 8 to 1 ratio in your figures.
Take off three draws and it's 5 to 1, add a year on to either end and it 5 to 3, add 2 years on to either end and it's 5 to 5 etc.

So between 1983 and 1995 Dublin won the Leinster championship 7 times to Meath's 5 (I hope that's right !)

I've heard you mention that Meath have the best record against Dublin, but that's only applies to 11 counties.
It's unfair to the rest. Dublin have also beaten Meath more than any other county. Dublin have over twice as many Leinster championships than Meath. I'd say it's very likely that no team has beaten Meath more in championship football than Dublin.

I think Dublin have 57 LFCs and meath definitely have 21

Meath have kicked on to win the AI final 7 times (33%)
Dublin have kicked on to win the final 27 times (47%)


Donegal, Kerry, Down have all beaten Dublin in more all Ireland finals than Meath, the structure of the championship creates the conditions for some fairly impressive stats, but they are not that great when you dig into them.

I'm just firing some numbers back Sonny it's a good thread, didn't think it would be. Thanks again for your contribution. I hope I'm reasonably accurate.

When Meath got to AI finals they won about 43% (7 AIs) of them

Kerry are at about 62% (37 AIs) and Dublin are at 67% (27 AIs)
I think these are about right but it shows how close Dublin and Kerry are on that winning percentage compared to Meath.

So to counter your argument about Dublin not winning All Ireland's by the margins that Meath do, historically Dublin have been more likely to win a final than Meath, a 50 % improvement on Meaths win to loss percentage in finals against all, from the beginning of the championship as we know it.

I know it's a small number but Donegal are at 66% right between Kerry and Dublin, and again like Kerry and Dublin on average more likely to win a final than Meath once there

I'm tempted to try Mayo, but it's a bit raw.


Ok

Mayo have won about 19 % of the finals they have been in 3 from 16

All excluding draws.
Again I hope I was checking be the right sources and remembered correctly.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

Stoner I have to disagree again Kildare 98 -2000 were an excellent team..Best Kildare team of the last 90 years. A brillant defence of Dalton Lacey Ryan and Rainbow with Earley Lynch and McCreery in midfield. Kildare 98 defeated three All Ireland champions Dublin 95, Meath 96 and Kerry 97. They had one hand in the cup in 98. Where the best team in the first half in the final. But Donnellan and Galway ran riot in the second half.

Fair point, I withdrew that one , but Laois Offaly and Westmeath stand. None won the AI though Sonny

You can't include Dublins 1995 team as relevant though, they stopped at that , sure they lost against meath by 8 or 10 points the next year they were relatively poor for years after that.

Sonny678

blanch152 wrote:

I see the narrative here, if the Kerry 2014 team is poor, then the Dublin team that beat them 5 times in a row is no great shakes.

blanch152 wrote:

On the other hand, if that Kerry team is at the level of a normal Kerry team, then this Dublin team is something very exceptional having beaten the Kerry team five teams in a row.

blanch152 wrote:

A question, if that Kerry team (and the Kerry teams of this decade) are so so poor, how come Cork haven't won Munster a few more times?

Kerry 2014 poor is not because of Dublin record it's because they are the only kerry team in the last 100 years to not win two All Irelands . They are not considered a great Kerry teams. These are great teams from Kerry

00s Kerry team won 5 All Irelands
70 and 80 kerry team win 8 All Irelands
69 70 Kerry do the double with Mick O Connell Dwyer
They are great Kerry teams
Then you have great Kerry teams in the 40s and 50s and
And 4 in row record breaking kerry team from 29 to 32.

It's about winning lots and lots of All.Irelands with lots and lots of great players. Which kerry do regularly. It their genius calling card.

2014 team does not compare to a 8 in row 80s team , a 5 Sam's in 00s, a double in 6os or 4 in a row in 30s. Simple as.

Why Cork haven't won Munster few times . You might have not noticed but Cork are at their lowest since the 1950s. Cork are now div 2 team. They were beaten by Tipp last year. The last time that happened was the fifties.

Cork have talent. But something is wrong in Cork football. For the first time in living memory in the last few year's Cork are not a divsion 1 team a top 5 or 6 team. Cork are always strong . But since 2010 Cork have been piss poor.

How many finals have they won. Semi finals have they reached. They won a few leagues but once Colohan left Cork football has slipped every year to where it is now, a new low.

There is lack of confidence and belief in Cork football. Have you not seen them play in recent years. Kerry since the bad loses in the 00s have Cork in a mental vice grip. Cork are firmly under the toe of Kerry this decade. They have made one bad manager choice after another. Do you remeber Cubert. Do you remeber Healy . Me neither. They should have given John Cleary but they fecked up..does that answer your question.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

I think the fitness argument is baloney. So in ten years time teams will be better then now because they will be fitter. And in 20 or 30 years time teams will be more better as team get fitter and ftlter as sport science improves.

The more advanced team would win imo

Plus you are disregarding my other points like attitude, Donegal 2011, 2012 under McGuinness were the most focused team I've ever seen
And the point about goalkeepers the lads from the 70/80s wouldn't come near Clarke, Cluxton etc.

And not all players will train.
McNelis in Donegal, Clarke in Armagh have all had issues training

Look at how difficult it was to get a shot off under pressure in the recent final.

Kevin Heffernan had to follow Joe McNally around to keep him out of pubs. That attitude sees you out the door now, no room for a skilful chubby now , you'd be out the door.

You look at the Kerry's golden years and the Dubs equivalent videos, some of the football was rubbish, the Kerry lads will tell you the same thing. Dublin and Kerry beating teams of fat larrys left right and centre.

Sonny678

Stoner

you can make stats say anything with %.

Leinster teams record v Dublin in leinster championship

Kildare have only beaten Dublin twice in 45 years

Offaly have not beaten Dublin in 35 years.

Laois have beaten Dublin once in 35 years

Louth haven't not beaten Dublin in 40 years

Westmeath have beaten Dublin twice in 130 years

Wexford have not beaten Dublin in 70 years

Wicklow have not beaten Dublin in 70 years their only victory

Carlow have not beaten Dublin in nearly 80 years

Longford have not beaten Dublin in nearly 50 years

Kilkenny have never beaten Dublin

Meath in the last 35 years have beaten Dublin 10 times and drawn 5 times in the leinster championship.
(A bit of homework for you Stoner what are teams % against Dublin in leinster in the 40 years.)

Anyway so Meath have beaten Dublin more then the whole of the rest of the province put together. Forgetting your % would you not say that is not bad going
Remeber Meath have beaten Dublin 10 times and drawn 5 times in the last 35 years in leinster

Let's look other counties record v Dublin records
Galway have not beaten Dublin championship in over 90 years . You have to go back to the 1920s when Galway last beat Dublin in the championship.
Mayo two wins v Dublin in 12 and o6 are the only defeats by Connacht v Dublin in over 70 years.

Dublin simply put are the hardest team to beat in gaelic football. Playing Dublin in a packed house is the closest thing to an All Ireland final.

Yes Dublin have beaten Meath allot and Meath have beaten Dublin allot it called a rivalry that's what rivals do. But no team in leinster comes close to Meath record v Dublin or in the country. Forget %

In summary
Record leinster teams v Dublin
In the last 35 years
1 Meath have defeated Dublin 10 times and drawn 5 times.
2 Kildare have two wins
3 Westmeath Laois Offaly have 1 win each and that's it.
So in the last 35 years Meath have won 10 match and 5 draws
The rest of the province( Offaly Westmeath Kildare Louth Laois Longford Carlow Wexford ) have had 5 wins no draws

Stoner surely you would have to admit Meath have an outstanding record v Dublin.

davedanon

Sonny678 wrote: »

Stoner

It's about titles and winning matchs.

And yet you quibble with Dublin's performances in those title-winning matches...

Sonny678

Again nitpicking what I say. I write a long rambling message. And Dave takes out magnifying glass and look for some inaccuracies or errors.
It's either a one line smart comment or nit picking one or two little errors in an essay
Still not one Dublin contributer has responded to my point that Dublins last great performance in a final was 1977. 12 finals since and counting.

davedanon

Sonny678 wrote: »

Again nitpicking what I say. I write a long rambling message. And Dave takes out magnifying glass and look for some inaccuracies or errors.
It's either a one line smart comment or nit picking one or two little errors in an essay
Still not one Dublin contributer has responded to my point that Dublins last great performance in a final was 1977. 12 finals since and counting.

It's not nitpicking. It's your selective biases. Is it about winning matches and titles, or is it about playing wonderfully? you seem to keep changing your mind, depending on which county you're talking about.

It's worth pointing out to you, and anyone else, that Dublin don't give a rat's ass about entertaining supporters: their own, or anyone else's. All they care about is winning. A quality much prized, but one which you seem determined to belittle in Dublin's case.