The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

The Talking Bread

Sonny678 wrote: »

Again nitpicking what I say. I write a long rambling message. And Dave takes out magnifying glass and look for some inaccuracies or errors.
It's either a one line smart comment or nit picking one or two little errors in an essay
Still not one Dublin contributer has responded to my point that Dublins last great performance in a final was 1977. 12 finals since and counting.

His reply sums up your hypocrisy re these things to be honest. Stats and results as excellent and a testament to your knowledge of the history of the game as they are contained in long, self admitting "rambling messages" doesn't make your argument always stronger.

I daren't ask what your qualitative measurement of "performing great" in a final that you win against the likes of Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone (1995) is, but I am sure you will enlighten us.

Again, I am not a Dublin fan, but even as a Kildare fan with Mayo roots, I find your reluctance to accept any POV that disregards your own opinion re this Dublin team a clear reason as to why "not one Dublin contributer has responded to (your) point that Dublins last great performance in a final was 1977. 12 finals since and counting"

Why you are even bracketing successful Dublin teams 20/30 years ago with one that just won an Ireland 5 days ago in the same context makes no sense.

Even the Dublin team that won the All Ireland in '11 is relatively incomparable in setup/approach than that of this current team.

There is so many different variables in current era GAA teams to ten/fifteen years ago, (fitness standard, tactics, rules, freedom of forwards, role of midfielders role of goalkeepers, dead ball restarts, refereeing etc) not to mention 30 years ago that it is almost impossible to measure one against the other in so many aspects.

The game has completely evolved so much that as well as having natural talent the level of fitness, mentality, strength, squad depth and tactical excellence at times, would allow this Dublin team, on the balance of probabilities, to beat most All Ireland winning teams in the last 30 years.

I would be confident of that I don't see how that is disputable.

Sonny678

Stoner you talk about % leinster wins Dublin is better then Meath. That's a fact. But Meath still are the second most successful county in leinster and joint fourth most successful county in the country.

People talk about Dublins advantages they have . Which they do. But if you look at the last 70 or 80 years even though Dublin have all these advantages Meath have gone toe to toe Dublin up to this decade.

In the last 70 years in leinster leaving out this decade

Dublin have 9 All Irelands
Meath have 7 All Irelands
Offaly have 3 All Irelands
Louth have 1 All Ireland
That's all the All Ireland winners in leinster up to 2011

Meath have won nearly twice as much All Ireland then the rest of leinster put together. (Leaving out Dublin).

Anyway If look at gaelic football overall Meath and Down are the two counties that have greatly overachieved. Look at Down 5 All Irelands to Armagh 1. Both similar counties geographically but there is a serious difference in All Ireland wins

Look at the area in Ireland where Meath comes from . Leaving Dublin to one side Meath are in a strong football area with great football counties but who have had little sucess for decades.

Look at Kildare and Meath. Very similar landscapes, towns and accents. There's not to much difference between the counties. But in football Meath have played in 15 senior finals in the last 90 years. Kildare have played in 1 senior final in 90 years. Meath have 7 National league divsion 1 titles . Kildare have never won a national league divsion 1 title. Meath have 3 minor titles.kildare have never won a minor title.

I don't mean to put down Kildare. Great football county great supporters and a great tradition. But the difference between Meath and Kildare sucess is startling.

(In terms of league titles only kerry Mayo Dublin and Cork have more titles then Meaths 7 div 1 league titles.
League titles are hard won. And the spread of wins is not very wide. The top counties win so many of the league titles. So many counties have only won their first and only title recently eg Laois 1 title in 85 Offaly 1 title in 98 Donegal 1 title in 200? Armagh 1 title in 2005 or 2006 Tyrone 1 title in 2003 or 2004 also. Roscomon won their first and only title in 1978. So Meath 7 wins with a win in 30s 40s 50s 70s 80s and 90s is another sign of Meath overachieving)

If you look at the top 5 or 6 most successful counties who standa out from the top counties 1 Kerry 2 Dublin 3 Galway 4 Cork 5 Meath 6 Down.

Kerry is a football genius of county. The New Zealand Brazil of gaelic football. If you love football you have a bit of love for the Kingdom.

But look. At other top counties. It is no surprise that Dublin Cork and Galway are in the top 5. These our Irelands most famous most powerful biggest important counties in the country..
Dublin is the centre of political social economic and cultural life in the country. Galway is the centre of social economic political and cultural like in the west of Ireland . And Cork is the centre of social economic political and cultural life in Munster.

That these three world famous counties are in the top 3 is no surprise.
But Meath and Down are in thr top 5 or 6 is a surprise. But counties don't stand out. Meath is a bog standard Midlands county. There is some ancient history in the county. But it does not have the impact and power and stature that a county like Cork has.

Yet in Gaelic football terms Meath and Down are in the top counties. They have both overachieved as counties. 7 All Irelands and 5 All Irelands is a massive haul in Gaelic football terms.
You could even make the arguement that after Kerry , Meath and Down are gaelic football two great5st counties.
Up to this decade Dublin had under achieved with all its resources. They are achieving their full potential the Dubs this decade.

Cork have achieved greatness in hurling but you could also say Cork football the county with the most football clubs in Ireland has under achieved. Galway great years were from 30s to 60s. With 2 wins in half century are Galway now underachieving. But Meath and Down have overachieved

And Maybe that's both counties problem. They are now returning to the pack and their golden eras are finished..
Are Meath now the new Cavan. Are Meath and Down best days behind them.

Sonny678

The Talking Bread wrote:

The game has completely evolved so much that as well as having natural talent the level of fitness, mentality, strength, squad depth and tactical excellence at times, would allow this Dublin team, on the balance of probabilities, to beat most All Ireland winning teams in the last 30 years.

The Talking Bread wrote:

I would be confident of that I don't see how that is disputable.

My answer to that. If you read back many agreed with my comments. I would40% agreed with my comments. I'm not the only 1 person in this forum or country that is saying this at the moment. That this is not the greatst team ever.

Many GAA supporters agree with my sentiments. It's just mainstream media and ex players have a reluctance to criticise Dublin . I'm entitled to ask questions about a team been considered the greatest ever and yet never deliver an outstanding performance.

Alot of my opinions where backed up with stats and results. Responses against me have just been put downs saying teams where crap football begins in 2011.

As a Kildare man I'm sure you would like to think that football began long ago. That the kildare team of 27 28 where a great team which they were. Why is it that kildare team in every decent pub in Kildare is hanging from.the wall. Because those 15 men did great things on the field of play for your county. There would be no Kildare football without the men of 27 28. They are your finest best. 15 of the best men walk in your county.

To trivialise all.past teams and blow up all current teams does not seem right. There has to be a happy medium. But ridiculing past teams and putting down their achievements seems to be morally bankrupt in a sport sense. For all those great teams( and the great Kildare team of 1927 1928 ) included remeber them all. For all teams and players and supporters today and tomorrow are standing on the shoulder of gaints, men on past great teams who achieved great things.
Don't ignore your past because there is new shiny loud sensation in town. The past is alive and GAA has a wonderful past. Never forget that.

Sonny678

Stoner
you said that Dublin had beaten Meath % of times. But there is a story behind that %. Every provience has a story, a massive rivalry that underpins and impacts that provience through the ages. Munster have Cork and Kerry. Connacht have Mayo and Galway. In leinster that rivalry is Meath v Dublin. Allot people think Meath v Dublin rivalry began in 80s. This is wrong it began 40 years earlier in the 1940s.

The Story of leinster football in the last 70 to 80s years is a story of Meath v Dublin rivalry. There are under wonderful players and events that are important and mighty . But Meath v Dublin rivalry has caused seismic changes in the provience decade after decade.

People talk about Dublins advantage and resources but one team has gone toe to toe with Dublin up to this decade. No county has defeated Dublin , has broken Dublin and made Dublin change and evolve more then Meath over the decades . Yes Kerry and Ulster teams also have a role. But local neighbour, a local rival always has the biggest impact rather then the faraway foes.

So what is the story of leinster football. Since 40s it goes like this Stoner. Sit back it a long story. And you know my long rambling stories

Basically Dublin are the kingpins, the dominant force in leinster. Dublin have gone up a level and then Meath come from nowhere and knock Dublin from their perch. Meath now become top dogs in leinster and then Ireland and Dublin are faltering under the power of a Royal surge. Meath deline. Dublin rise again and go up another level. And Meath come again from nowhere and knock Dublin from their perch. And the cycle begins again and repeats itself again and again.

In the last 70 to 80 years Meath have knocked Dublin from their perch 5 times In the 40s 50s 60s 80s and 90s. While in the 70s they defeated Dublin in a league final and went toe to toe with Dublin for 5 years. In the noughties Meath still defeated Dublin more then any other leinster county. And this period culminated in Dublins worst defeat in leinster football in a half century in 2010 with a 5 goal hammering.

When Meath knock Dublin from their perch Meath then go on a run of victories over Dublin year after year. The one thing the Dubs can never deal with is a strong Meath team. The Dubs only true weakness is a strong All Ireland Meath winning team at its peak.

1 Meath first knock Dublin from their perch 1947

Dublin have gone up a level teams full of the best country lads working in Dublin. Meath are a divsion 3 team. Meath come from nowhere and defeat Dublin in 47. In the next few years Meath defeat Dublin 5 times in a row in the championship. The battles between Paddy O Brien and Kevin Heffernan are legendary. If you said Meath would play in 5 All Irelands in 5 years in spring 47 you would have been laughed at , but that's what happened. Meath had great battles with great Louth and Cavan teams at the time. But it was the battles with Dublin that were the making of that Meath team.


2 Meath knock Dublin from.their perch 1964

Dublin were in a very strong position in Spring 64. They had gone up a level in previous years. Instead of country lads and now under Kevin Heffernan influence, and responding to bad defeats to Meath and Louth in the late 40s and early 50s, Dublin was now an All Dublin team full of Vincent's players.

It worked for now Dublin were the dominant force in leinster and All Ireland champions in 58 and 63. Meath in the early 60s where heading to divsion 4 . Then out of nowhere back boned by the Quinn brothers Meath defeated Dublin in leinster final with Meaths greatest leinster final win v Dublin ever. Dublin were reigning All Ireland champions. Meath became the dominant force in leinster in the sixties. This Meath team led by Jack Quinn would reach 3 All Ireland finals winning 1 in 1967. And Dublin would not beat Meath for another 11 years.

(This team also became the first international rules team. For after 1967 final this Meath team went on a tour of Australia playing Auzzie Rules teams, and so beginning the whole Ireland v Australia international rules.)

3 Meath knock Dublin from their perch again 1986

Dublin were incredibly dominate in leinster in mid 80s. They had 6 in row leinsters in 70s and three more in 80s by 85. They had played in 8 All Ireland finals in 11 years between 74 and 85 . They had gone up a level again. In terms of fitness ,preparation, tactics, player ability , talent ,skill and role of manager. Meath had not won leinster title in 16 years and at the start of the decade where heading to divsion 4 after championship loses to Wexford and longford. An headline on the front of the Meath chronicle in 82 after the longford loss read "Meath football RIP".

Within 3 years of that headline appearing on the front of the Meath chronicle ,again Meath would topple Dublin in 86 leinster final. And become the dominate force in leinster and the country playing 5 All Ireland finals in 5 years .
And playing Dublin in 9 championship matchs and 1 national league div 1 final, which resulted in 6 wins and 3 draws for Meath in 5 years v the Dubs. The most sucessful sequence of results any county has inflicted on Dublin in such a short period of time. It all culminated in the 4 game saga in 1991 that gripped the countries attention. A saga that many people thought at the time saved the GAA after soccer fever gripped the country after Italia 90. Four games that changed the face of the GAA. 91 is the year zero for modern GAA. Everything changes after 91.

4 Meath knock Dublin from their perch again 1996

When Dublin won v Meath in 95 by 10 points many people though Meath was finished. But out of nowhere another generation of Meath young footballers beat Dublin as reigning All Ireland champions. And again Meath dominate Dublin for rest of the decade winning 4 times in 6 years in thr champuonship. Winning two All Irelands.

So the question is can Meath do another football miracle again. Knock Dublon from their perch and become the dominant force in leinster football again. The simple answer is: It's highly unlikely at the moment

Dublin have gone up another level. But Meath have been in worst places eg 1947 or 86. And they rose from the dead. It's unlikely though , there is no evidence to say Meath will knock Dublin from.their perch again. Dublin are to dominat.. Meath are to weak. But if they don't the next Meath generation of players will try in the 2020s and if they don't the next generation will try in 2030s and on and on we go. Because the one thing that has driven Meath football for 70 or 80 years is not just to beat Dublin but, to knock them from their perch.

Colm O Rourke said beating Dublin was bigger then winning an All Ireland final. Mick Lyons said he was willing to put his life on the line when he played Dublin.

In 1964 before the leinster final. The three Quinn brothers from kilbride where facing Dublin in the leinster final.

But days before the final their father was on his deathbed. They didn't feel it was right to play in the leinster final with the father so sick. But their father on his deathbed with not long to live told his three sons "Go up to Croke Park and beat Dublin in the leinster final" and thats what they did. All three brothers played in the leinster final and Meath won the leinster final v reigning All.Ireland champions with one Meaths finest leinster final performances ever with the three Quinn brothers to the fore.

Leitrim 94

ThunbergsAreGo

Sonny

Have you watched much of the Kerry team of the 30s?

Also interesting stats on Leinster for all the talk of no competition, Meath aside it's just the status quo for the rest of the counties.

Just like Munster has always been Kerry....... Cork..... Everyone else

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

you can make stats say anything with %.

I know as I said I was just throwing things back at you

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

In the last 70 years in leinster leaving out this decade

Sonny

As a note I agree with your comments that Dublin didn't win those finals by a lot I didn't think I had to answer it, how can someone answer that it's in black and white. You made a good point it stands up.

I gave you stats from the beginning of the championship, but in fairness you just keep picking sections of time. You dismissed stats when I did the same back to you

You've left out the last ten years in this one above
If I approached this like you have I'd just give you the last 10 years

If I did i could say that Dunlin won 5 AIs in the past 10 years compared to 0 for Meath.

I could all say that they won 5 AIs in the past 10 years compared to Meaths total 7 AIs since the championship began.

And again if you are asking people to answer you , I tried to do that.

What about the stat about Meath being the least likely of Donegal , Kerry and Dublin to win a final than Meath, of the four Meath is the only county with a negative return here so overall Meaths record in finals on a win lose basis is relatively poor. Again this is all the numbers not just a small section of time that suits a position.
But can I have your opinion on that , not an opinion about how stats are used ?

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

Stoner surely you would have to admit Meath have an outstanding record v Dublin.

I do. They have a great record alright. As you say it's a rivalry

Sonny678

Stoner
Its not comparing Apples and oranges.
Donegal have played in 3 finals Meath in 15 finals. Meath are the joint 4th most sucessful county. Donegal are the 15th most sucessful county. Donegal did not win their first Ulster title til the early 1970s. Meath won it's first leinster title in 1896.
Limerick have a 100% record in finals but they haven't won a final since 1896.
I don't think your % are not a true barometer of sucess. I think your being very harsh on hugely sucessful county and ignoring 90 % of other counties.

While you cannot expect to place Meath right along with Dublin for 130 years and expect them to go toe to with them year in and out. After Kerry and Dublin in the last 70 years Meath have been the most successful county.
Meath Kerry Dublin and Cork have been the most consistent counties in the last 70 or 80 years

Kerry won in every decade . Dublin won in every decade but the 00s.
Cork won 50s 70s 80s 90s and 00s
Meath won in 40s 50s 60s 80s and 90s
Donegal won in 90s and this decade
While Tyrone just in the noughties
Galway and Down won in the 60s and 90s
Offaly in the 70s and 80s.
Meath have been more consistent over a longer period.

I showed the periods of sucess over Dublin. Because they are unique. Look at my stats on teams beating Dublin in leinster championship. Meath period of sucess over Dublin are outstanding compared to other leinster counties. Kildare have only beaten dubs twice in 45 years. Offaly haven't won v dubs in 35 years. Meath have 10 victories and 5 draws in 35 years. Kildare and Offaly are 3rd and 4th most sucessful counties in leinster.
If compare both to Dublin record it is poor. As I said Meath and Down have overachieved more then any other counties in Ireland after Kerry. With their resources and stature in Irish society.


Of course Dublin have a much better record v Meath . With all their resources and advantages. But take out kerry and Dublin Meath record of sucess is second to none .
Two other interesting Meath stats
Meath have only lost 1 replay in the last 30 years eg Dublin 07.
Meath have only lost 4 replays in 130 years of football. Meath are replay specialist.
Meath have played 14 semi final v Ulster teams. Meath have 14 victories v Ulster teams in All Ireland semi finals.

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

Again nitpicking what I say. I write a long rambling message. And Dave takes out magnifying glass and look for some inaccuracies or errors.
It's either a one line smart comment or nit picking one or two little errors in an essay
Still not one Dublin contributer has responded to my point that Dublins last great performance in a final was 1977. 12 finals since and counting.

I already demolished your argument about great performances, pointing out the number of scores from play as an indicator.

The 1977 All-Ireland final was akin to playing Westmeath in a Leinster semi-final. That Armagh team was rubbish.

Dublin's last great performance in a final was last Sunday. Two points down with eight minutes to go and they weren't beaten. You have spent many posts lauding the Meath team of 87-91, like this Dublin team they were never beaten, but while you give them credit, you won't give Dublin credit.

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

Kerry 2014 poor is not because of Dublin record it's because they are the only kerry team in the last 100 years to not win two All Irelands . They are not considered a great Kerry teams. These are great teams from Kerry

00s Kerry team won 5 All Irelands
70 and 80 kerry team win 8 All Irelands
69 70 Kerry do the double with Mick O Connell Dwyer
They are great Kerry teams
Then you have great Kerry teams in the 40s and 50s and
And 4 in row record breaking kerry team from 29 to 32.

It's about winning lots and lots of All.Irelands with lots and lots of great players. Which kerry do regularly. It their genius calling card.

2014 team does not compare to a 8 in row 80s team , a 5 Sam's in 00s, a double in 6os or 4 in a row in 30s. Simple as.

Why Cork haven't won Munster few times . You might have not noticed but Cork are at their lowest since the 1950s. Cork are now div 2 team. They were beaten by Tipp last year. The last time that happened was the fifties.

Cork have talent. But something is wrong in Cork football. For the first time in living memory in the last few year's Cork are not a divsion 1 team a top 5 or 6 team. Cork are always strong . But since 2010 Cork have been piss poor.

How many finals have they won. Semi finals have they reached. They won a few leagues but once Colohan left Cork football has slipped every year to where it is now, a new low.

There is lack of confidence and belief in Cork football. Have you not seen them play in recent years. Kerry since the bad loses in the 00s have Cork in a mental vice grip. Cork are firmly under the toe of Kerry this decade. They have made one bad manager choice after another. Do you remeber Cubert. Do you remeber Healy . Me neither. They should have given John Cleary but they fecked up..does that answer your question.

Your whole argument against Dublin rests on your belief that the 2014 Kerry team and the other recent vintages are poor Kerry teams. When it is pointed out that Cork can't beat them (and neither can Tipperary or Clare who beat previous poor Kerry teams) you argue that Cork are also very poor. You then go on to say that Mayo have been poor because they haven't won an All-Ireland.

It is a completely circular argument, all the rest are poor so Dublin mustn't be great. Yet, the standard of football being played is higher than ever. The strike for goal by Con O'Callaghan, letting the ball drop from his left hand and striking with the outside of his right foot, to put the ball past David Clarke, at the speed he was travelling at, is a level of skill that is beyond anything produced by the Kerry team of the 70s/80s.

I think you are wrong about Kerry, Cork and Mayo. The Cork team won an All-Ireland in 2010, yet they haven't been able to come out of Munster since. That shows the Kerry team of this era must be really strong. The fact that Kerry team has lost five times to Dublin must mean the Dublin team is great. Ditto this Mayo team reaching an unprecedented seven semi-finals must be a great Mayo team but has only beaten Dublin once, demonstrating Dublin's greatness. It is a similar circular argument to yours.

Sonny678

blanch152 wrote:

I already demolished your argument about great performances, pointing out the number of scores from play as an indicator.

I have explained myself 7 or 8 times. But no one listening. Instead they are making up what I said.
I have never once not said this is not a great Dublin team. Let me make it clear

THIS DUBLIN TEAM IS ONE OF THE GREATEST TEAMS OF ALL TIME.
THEY ARE BEST TEAM OF THE LAST 3O YEARS.
CLUXTON IS THE GREATEST GOALKEEPER EVER
DUBLIN HAVE THE BEST DEFENDERS IN IRELAND AT THE MOMENT
JIM GALVIN IS THE BEST MANAGER OF HIS GENERATION.
FLYNN IS ONE OF THE BEST WING FORWARDS I HAVE SEEN PLAY
CONNOLLY IS THE MOST TALENTED DUBLIN PLAYER EVER
BROGAN IS ONE OF THE BEST DUBLIN FORWARDS EVER
ONLY HEFFERNAN OR KEAVENEY HAS BEEN BETTER.
THEY HAVE DISPLAYED SOME BRILLANT PERFORMANCES IN LEINSTER FINALS SEMI FINAL LEAGUE FINALS
SOME GREAT SWASHBUCKLING FOOTBALL
The thing I Just have is 3 or 4 issues regarding this Dublin team
Is that clear I have actually said the above numerous times in the last 18 pages.
Is that clear now

Sonny678

blanch152 wrote:

Yet, the standard of football being played is higher than ever. .

This is where I disagree I don't believe the standard of football being played is higher then ever before. Dublin are playing a high standard football. But so many great counties are in their worst state for decades eg Meath Down Derry Armagh Laois Cork and til recently Kildare and Galway.

Sonny678

blanch152 wrote:

I think you are wrong about Kerry, Cork and Mayo. The Cork team won an All-Ireland in 2010, yet they haven't been able to come out of Munster since. That shows the Kerry team of this era must be really strong. The fact that Kerry team has lost five times to Dublin must mean the Dublin team is great. Ditto this Mayo team reaching an unprecedented seven semi-finals must be a great Mayo team but has only beaten Dublin once, demonstrating Dublin's greatness. It is a similar circular argument to yours.

Yes Kerry are a great team in THIS DECADE
Yes Mayo are a great team in THIS DECADE
But when I compare this kerry team to other great Kerry teams it is a poor kerry team.
And when I compare this decade to other decade in my opinion and it's my opinion this decade is poor only for the greatness of this Dublin team

I have seen every leinster final and All Ireland in Croke Park since 1982

Sonny678

blanch152 wrote:

. Yet, the standard of football being played is higher than ever. The strike for goal by Con O'Callaghan, letting the ball drop from his left hand and striking with the outside of his right foot, to put the ball past David Clarke, at the speed he was travelling at, is a level of skill that is beyond anything produced by the Kerry team of the 70s/80s.

Cleary you have never seen the greatest goal in a final ever scored by Jack O Se v Offaly in 81
Are the goal scored by Pat Spillane in 1986 final v Tyrone
Or the point set up by Michael Donnellan in 98 final which was voted a few years ago on Tng by the public as the greatest GAA moment ever.
Or the goal scored by Cavanan in the 05 final
Or the points scores by Fitzgerald in 97 final
Our the moment of genius by Sheedy in 78 final.
Or the goals by Ollie Murphy and Joe Kavanagh in 1999 final
Check them out on you tube

Sonny678

Dublin showed great tenacity and determination to win the final on Sunday. It's showed a fighting spirit. And Dublin have displayed this in all their finals.

My issue is they didn't win one out of 5 finals comprehensively like they did v Tyrone in great style in the the semi final or against Dublin in leinster final.
Even win by 5 or 6 points where the teams play well all over the field

Win a final in style. Like Barcelona win European cups or like Brazil 1970 World cup final.
Or like Cody's Kilkenny or kerry did in 78 79 81 finals.
Or like Galway in 2001.

That's my issue why I dont

Sonny678

My issue why I dont consider this Dublin team the greatest team ever or in my top 3 or 4 greatest teams ever
Again they are one of the greatest teams ever in my opinion 5th or 6th in the list of great teams.
But they are the greatest team of the last 30 years. And have played some outstanding football and have some great character and a never say die spirit. I would love to have a Meath team half as good as the current Dublin team.

Sonny678

If they win 5 in a row or 9 All Irelands they are the then the greatest. So they might become the greatest yet.

But I still think they are an All time great team in not a great era when I compare to other eras and teams I have seen and heard abour. ANd when I see so many great counties in such a dreadful state also.
I will not change my mind on that.no way

Also I think the blanket defence has destroyed defending players can no longer defend. Only Mayo and Dublin have great defenders these days.

Sonny678

Again Dublin are one of the greatest teams ever just not in my top 3 or 4

Is that clear to everyone

Also I believe fitness should not be sign of greatness. Fitter players today don't mean they are better player. Kicking a ball over the bar from 50 metres or scoring goal or picking a pass with vision cannot be trained a player either has natural ability or not.
People are to quick to dismiss great teams from the past way to quickly and I don't get this at all.
If Sean Purcell was around today he still would be called the master

Boxing fans say Ali is the greatest Soccer fans say Pele is the greatst
Baseball fans say Babe Ruth is the greatest
Hurling fans say Christy Ring is the greatest fans
Gaelic football fans should acknowledge great teams and player from past . We are all standing on the shoulder of past gaelic football gaints.

ThunbergsAreGo

Sonny678 wrote: »

Again Dublin are one of the greatest teams ever just not in my top 3 or 4

Is that clear to everyone

And i dont think anyone will argue with that

If we all had the same opinion it would be boring!

The Talking Bread

Sonny678 wrote: »

blanch152 wrote:

Yet, the standard of football being played is higher than ever. .

This is where I disagree I don't believe the standard of football being played is higher then ever before. Dublin are playing a high standard football. But so many great counties are in their worst state for decades eg Meath Down Derry Armagh Laois Cork and til recently Kildare and Galway.

Oh come on. The skill level and execution of scores, especially under intensity and opposition setup far outweighs that of yesteryears.

Shurimgreat

Sonny678 wrote: »

This is where I disagree I don't believe the standard of football being played is higher then ever before. Dublin are playing a high standard football. But so many great counties are in their worst state for decades eg Meath Down Derry Armagh Laois Cork and til recently Kildare and Galway.

It comes down to resources.
Everything is loaded in Dublins favour, whereas everything is loaded against most other counties, particularly rural counties.
Most young professionals work in cities, particularly Dublin. They attend college in cities. Collective training with their own counties becomes a nightmare.
No county has a shirt sponsorship deal like AIGs with Dublin. No county has the same spend on player development, on coaches for young players. No county has the same number of young players.
The odds are heavily against all but a few counties.

Two things amaze me.
1. Give that all the odds are stacked against most counties, its amazing so many different counties have won AIs and managed to stay competitive up until recently.
2. Given the huge advantages Dublin have, its amazing they haven't won every single AI in the last 100 years. Just why Dublin was so relatively average up until recently is frankly bizarre. It would be akin to Celtic or Real Madrid being a mid table side who occasionally challenged for the title.

The Talking Bread

5 sentences Sonny. No more dressing up your POV with long rambling essays which are 80 % merely stats.

What is your point about this Dublin team.

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

Dublin showed great tenacity and determination to win the final on Sunday. It's showed a fighting spirit. And Dublin have displayed this in all their finals.

My issue is they didn't win one out of 5 finals comprehensively like they did v Tyrone in great style in the the semi final or against Dublin in leinster final.
Even win by 5 or 6 points where the teams play well all over the field

Win a final in style. Like Barcelona win European cups or like Brazil 1970 World cup final.
Or like Cody's Kilkenny or kerry did in 78 79 81 finals.
Or like Galway in 2001.

That's my issue why I dont

One of the reasons that finals aren't won in style in modern times is that the qualifier system now more or less ensures that the two best teams end up in the final.

The Armagh team that Dublin beat in 1977 arguably wasn't even in the top five teams in the country that year. Some the cheap All-Irelands that Kerry won in the past just wouldn't be possible.

Take 1980 for example. Dublin had 14 men in the Leinster final but were barely beaten by Offaly. If that Dublin team had had a second chance in a qualifier they might have gone on and won the All-Ireland with a full fifteen. As it was, they didn't and the team broke up.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

A mediocre team from today would hammer an All Ireland winning side from the 70s out the gate. This is true in every sport I can think of.

corny

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

A mediocre team from today would hammer an All Ireland winning side from the 70s out the gate. This is true in every sport I can think of.

Very true. I watched the 83 final recently and was shocked at how poor the basic skills were.

ThunbergsAreGo

corny wrote: »

Very true. I watched the 83 final recently and was shocked at how poor the basic skills were.

The Eir classics are great, but highlights the lack of tactics etc.

Nostalgia is a great thing

The Talking Bread

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

A mediocre team from today would hammer an All Ireland winning side from the 70s out the gate. This is true in every sport I can think of.

It beggars belief that it is disputable to some that a team as efficient, professional as well as talented, conditioned and mentally strong as Dublin (or even Mayo) or even Kerry or Tyrone for that matter would beat every winning All Ireland team in the 70s and 80s. Arguably the 90s also.

It is all relative given the evolution of the game but if Kerry 78 stood on Croke Park against Dublin 17, they would be comprehensively beaten.

I hate this comparison between teams in this era to teams in previous decade as the game is completely different. And it is damn obvious to anyone that thinks about logic that pit one against another and the further the chronological span between their era the more likely they will be beaten.

Compare players to a point but again, different level of conditioning, compare the odd execution of the ball, but again different pressure upon same. But comparing teams, meh.

Also worth taking into consideration that players' natural talents are more finely toned these days and whilst you have wonderful footballers in 70s and 80s, footballing intelligence from increased training/competition for places/dedication would lead to less natural players fine tuning their skills more so.
Essentially what I am saying is that there is more balance in individual talents across the panels these days than there would be when you had these masterful standout players in certain teams in decades gone by.
Dublin 17 is a prime example of that balance of talents. Con O Callaghan gave a great interview last night on Newstalk about the level of competition and talent amongst the whole 35 man squad. Obviously, the same 15 will just about emerge but the pressure to maintain standards is on another level. The "B" Dublin team as it were regularly beat Dublin in, in trusting his words, high intensity matches with proper refs during the Summer.




Physical, high intensity sports are very difficult when comparing talents of teams against eras gone by. Some players in that Kerry 70s team may not adapt to the levels of conditioning, intensity, dedication, the increasing focus on the team element rather than individual talent etc.

It was easier for a good team to win an AI in the 70s than it is for a good team to do so at the minute yet Dublin have won 5 out of 7 since 11 so it is saying something.

mickmackey1

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

A mediocre team from today would hammer an All Ireland winning side from the 70s out the gate. This is true in every sport I can think of.

And a mediocre team from the 2050s would hammer the Dubs of today, so your point is meaningless.

The Talking Bread

mickmackey1 wrote: »

And a mediocre team from the 2050s would hammer the Dubs of today, so your point is meaningless.

I think that is the exact point he is making to be fair.

ThunbergsAreGo

mickmackey1 wrote: »

And a mediocre team from the 2050s would hammer the Dubs of today, so your point is meaningless.

Not with the current level of childhood obesity in Ireland

mickmackey1

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I think that is the exact point he is making to be fair.

It sounded like he was dissing the lads from the past.

The Talking Bread

mickmackey1 wrote: »

It sounded like he was dissing the lads from the past.

Just comparative standards.

bucketybuck

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Some players in that Kerry 70s team may not adapt to the levels of conditioning, intensity, dedication, the increasing focus on the team element rather than individual talent etc.

People never think deeply enough about this when claiming that great players of the past would be just as good today if they had the same training. Even today the country is littered with talented players who couldn't hack the physical and mental demands of modern day intercounty football, while back in the day I'm sure there were plenty of players at intercounty level who were getting away with hugely destructive personal habits.

Its not as simple as "If the bomber Liston was around today with todays training he still would be a great player", its not nearly as simple as that at all.

mickmackey1 wrote: »

And a mediocre team from the 2050s would hammer the Dubs of today

For that to be true you have to think that the rate of improvement in fitness and training is a straight line on a graph, a constant rate of improvement.

I don't think thats necessarily true at all. There were hugely significant advances in terms of training and fitness over the past 15 years and you can see the results at all levels of the game. But a lot of those concepts and techniques are known now, further improvements are likely to be incremental only.

30 years ago intercounty players were drinking and eating fries before games, a big difference to todays players with their nutritionists and personal training programmes. But do you really think players in 30 years time are going to look back and laugh at todays players who have a level of fitess comparable to many professional footballers? I doubt that.

They may be fitter in 30 years time but it won't be the sea change that it was between 30 years ago and today, not unless you are talking outside factors such as drugs.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

Stoner Its not comparing Apples and oranges. Donegal have played in 3 finals Meath in 15 finals. Meath are the joint 4th most sucessful county.

Well if Donegal can't compare their 2 AI final wins with Meath's 7, how can you compare Meath's 7 with Dublin's 27.

It works both ways you can't talk about "standing toe to toe" when there's a 27:7 ratio, and then want to dismiss a 7:2 ratio when you are on the right side of it.

If you want to use Meath's 7 wins to make a case against Dublin's 27, then you have to be open to listening to an argument when you are on the right side of it .

It's about the same ratio

JB81

Sonny

You need to go get a job or a hobby man !!!

I'm sitting here trying to work out if you are 12 years of age or 62 years of age.

You are relentless, let it go man!!!

JB

The Talking Bread

Ha, leave Sonny alone! He engages in debate without pointless personal insults and has a Wikipedia of stats so his contribution is more refreshing than most of these GAA threads !

JB81

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Ha, leave Sonny alone! He engages in debate without pointless personal insults and has a Wikipedia of stats so his contribution is more refreshing than most of these GAA threads !

I know, I know

But there is debate and then there is over the top..

There is one point where he has 8 consecutive posts in the thread.. That is not debate...

The Talking Bread

"Harmless" 😂

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

mickmackey1 wrote: »

And a mediocre team from the 2050s would hammer the Dubs of today, so your point is meaningless.

Yeah, that's quite likely.

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I think that is the exact point he is making to be fair.

It is indeed.

mickmackey1 wrote: »

It sounded like he was dissing the lads from the past.

Not at all.

omega man

mickmackey1 wrote: »

And a mediocre team from the 2050s would hammer the Dubs of today, so your point is meaningless.

I don't know, that 2050 Dubs team aren't great, well not all of them in fairness - Fingal were decent. The other 3 are poor though. Still I get your point.

Stoner

The Talking Bread wrote:

What is your point about this Dublin team.

Lol, good man

Stoner

Good man Sonny

You sparked off a good thread with no mention of GPSs or Tees.

BonnieSituation

Stoner wrote: »

Good man Sonny

You sparked off a good thread with no mention of GPSs or Tees.

And then YOU go and spoil it all...

Stoner

BonnieSituation wrote:

And then YOU go and spoil it all...

It's Friday are you not milling a sheep's head for dinner or something?
Maybe a trotter?

Stoner

The Talking Bread wrote:

Some players in that Kerry 70s team may not adapt to the levels of conditioning, intensity, dedication, the increasing focus on the team element rather than individual talent etc.

Exactly Spillane might have loved it, but would Bomber ?

Stoner

Shurimgreat wrote:

Just why Dublin was so relatively average up until recently is frankly bizarre. It would be akin to Celtic or Real Madrid being a mid table side who occasionally challenged for the title.

Average?

Take away the current team and you have 22 AI wins, a bit off Kerry and a bit off third place but most definitely a silver medal.

BonnieSituation

Stoner wrote: »

It's Friday are you not milling a sheep's head for dinner or something?
Maybe a trotter?

I'm watching the the greatest team of all time win our 27th All Ireland like any true Dub should be. Also it goes off RTÉ Player tomorrow as a heads up.

Stoner

BonnieSituation wrote:

I'm watching the the greatest team of all time win our 27th All Ireland like any true Dub should be. Also it goes off RTÉ Player tomorrow as a heads up.

I've the HD recording from saorview .
Going to keep it as the DVDs have no halftime analysis