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Kerry GAA discussion thread #2
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ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »So the Fitzmaurice era is over. And to be fair, give the man credit, he went quickly and didn't wait for the board to do the necessary. I'd question how much truth there is in the "bag of anonymous hate mail" stuff and I also thought his line about "taking pressure off the younger players" was fairly disingenuous. Performances and results are the reason he came under pressure and is gone, that's all.
On the game yesterday - Kildare were playing really good stuff and allowed to play good stuff in the first half, by a Kerry team that looked like it had nothing to play for. Right from the warm-up (more on that later) there was a sense of lethargy from too many players. The ridiculous re-selection of Killian Young at 6 was shown up for what it was with Paul Cribbin scoring 5 from play in the first half. 4 of those under zero pressure 40m or less from goal.
David Clifford was slow to get into the game and had a few panicky sort of shots early on, but once he got going he showed his class. The Kerry tactics early on were a bad version of 2006 tactics - lump the ball into Donaghy basically. It didn't work, as a lot of the ball was poor, Donaghy is no longer as sharp as he was and also, there was no Kerry player to pick up breaks off this ball. As if they weren't fully briefed or aware of what the tactics were.
Kildare were running the ball with great purpose and Kevin Feely was the dominant figure on kickouts also ensuring they had plenty possession.
The penalty by Clifford brought Kerry into the game but then the sending off got Kerry off the hook really. I've been told by quite a few Kerry people who were in the stand close to it that it was soft enough, BUT stupid by Kelly hitting someone in the face regardless. No need when 5 pts up and dominating. He was just after sticking a great goal aswell. Maybe he was too pumped up.
The second half then was made easier for Kerry and once we got a few points ahead Kildare didn't kill themselves. BUT, we did play some good stuff and reallly went for it. Players were more urgent, moving with more zip etc. James O'Donoghue came in and showed flashes of his best, Geaney showed flashes of his true self finally, Jack Barry did well on front foot. Clifford was majestic though and is such an exciting prospect. Mad to think he's only 19.
Also though, Peter Crowley was left 1 v 1 at fullback several times in the 2nd half, which in any sort of real game would be suicidal policy. Kerry didn't really have or need a centre back in the 2nd half so it was a bit unrealistic to look at 2nd half as being any huge positive.
Anyway, on Ftzmaurice era. Firstly, it has to be said Fitz took the job in 2012 when only 36 and he didn't really want it. He wanted to stick with the u21s. However there was no other real condidate, so he took it. Credit due for that.
And in 2013 we got the max out of the team I would say. Nobody expected much, but we played good football in the semi final and were level with Dublin in the last minute.
There were signs in that game though of some of the poor judgement, that to me would be sadly one of the hallmarks of this era. Jack Sherwood - a player who had been a middling u21 in 2012 AND who had never played a championship game at senior level, had played a sum total of 17 mins in a league game - was brought off the bench to mark Kevin McMenamon when the game was in the melting pot. A bizarre and unjustifiable decision, which of course backfired.
2014 - got out of jail a bit in drawn semi final. Mayo were totally dominant in the 2nd half that day, but Donaghy was thrown on in desperation and setup the goal for JOD which was crucial. A big weakness of Fitzmaurice was exposed in between the drawn game and replay I felt and it went a bit unnoticed. Mayo had basically not bothered marking Mikey Geaney in the drawn game and as a result, even when they went down to 14 it was no advantage to Kerry. He was taken off after around 45 mins in the drawn game, but still started the replay. Everyone praised the ruthless decision to drop Marc O'Sé, but forgot about this in the aftermath of what was a huge win in that Mayo replay.
Still though, 2014 All Ireland was a big achievement. There was some good football played and in the final, although it was a poor spectacle, Fitz got a lot of calls and the tactics right. Again a bit slow to make changes. McBrearty had almost dragged Donegal back into it before a change was made for example. Still though it was a deserved win that day. Credit will always be due for that win.
I think the real issues with Fitzmaurice have appeared since 2015. The final that year was a massive debacle. The team selection, tactics, game management were all appalling by Fitzmaurice that day. Leaving the Gooch on for the entire game while withdrawing Geaney and JOD was just mind-boggling. Also, the disgraceful decision to bring on his brother in law, who had not even played club football in 2 years, was one of the most ridiculous things I've seen in my life. A shambles and the beginning of the end that day I thought.
Cian O'Neill seemed to bear the brunt of the blame for 2015, unfairly in my view. He left anyway and we replaced this highly qualified coach and sports scientist with..well, not going to get too nasty, but we certainly have not had an adequate level of coach or S&C since Cian O'Neill left. We've been bluffing in this regard and have paid the price repeatedly. I think of all the top contenders in Football since 2015, we are the least professional in our approach to the game, in terms of coaching, Strength and Conditioning and tactically.
2016 we went with an out and out sweeper in the Dublin game. I don't think it had been tried much in the league, so whatever about in training, players were not fully tuned into it. It didn't really work and despite playing well at times and being in a decent position in the final quarter against Dublin, we lost the game. The substitution of Paul Geaney for Marc O'Sé with the game tied in the 68th minute was yet another crazy change to make no matter what way you look at it.
2017 -the Mayo drawn game and replay were a shambles when viewed overall. A 19 year old making his debut as a sweeper in a big game whn you have never tried the tactic or formation is again, completely bonkers and unsurprisingly backfired.
Said enough about previous games this year before here, but just going back to yesterday - the warmup (not for the first time) was woefully lethargic and poor looking. Is that the fault of the totally underqualified guy running it? The manager who oversees it? The players? A mix, but the manager has to take responsibility for his management setup surely.
Two of the "tactical" issues that would strike anybody who has a clue about Gaelic football that saw the 1st half: 1.After 5 years in the job and a 7 months to work on various approaches, Kerry's attacking plan was based around kicking the ball high into Donaghy. Kieran Donaghy has been a great servant but is 35 and spent the winter playing basketball, missing the entire league. I would suggest in all fairness that this sort of thing is something that a Junior club manager would get excoriated for at an AGM, probably sacked being honest.
2.On top of that - our own kickouts were again, something akin to a poor Junior club team. No real consistent movement, no discernable shape or tactics. As a result, Kelly repeatedly ended up kicking the ball high and long right down the middle. Kildare were dominant in the air in the first half and also won the vast majority of the breaks. The sending off changed the game in this and every other regard.
I felt that Shane Murphy being dropped after the Galway game was a massive cop out by Fitzmaurice. Yes, there were a couple of kicks over the line in that game. The big issue on our kickouts in that game though was the complete lack of good movement along with the fact that Galway were dominating in the air and on the breaking ball (something that clearly wasn't even recognised or worked on by management in the interim based on yesterday's game?)
We have been left behind and look like a Div 3 team on restarts since 2015 which is just another of the systems failures of Fitzmaurice time in charge. Has there been a goalkeeping coach since Diarmuid Murphy left? I don't even know.
Anyway, possibly too long a post, but needed some perspective rather than a throwaway comment.
I'm happy Fitzmaurice is gone being honest and moving forward, whoever takes the manager job, we definitely could do with someone like Donie Buckley being brought in along with a vast improvement in S&C setup. A Peter Keane/Donie Buckley setup would appear to be a good option right now possibly. I have great time for what Jack O'Connor has done for Kerry football, but the last 3 years he has made a lot of bad calls and errors in the under 21/under 20 arena and he appears to have fallen behind a bit tactically to me also.
Either way, it's one of those "winters of discontent" ahead for us to a degree. Hopefully we get a 2004 type revival based on a fresh approach.
Great post.
I hope the County Board take their time with the next appointment.0 -
Kerry supporters will have to wake up to the new world of All Ireland football championship. To win now in your have to win 7 games. Kerry won all theirs winning 3 or 4. They would be half fit and beat Cork in munster hit full fitness in August for a simi final and peak in September. The Kerry supporters have been reared to winning Titles but it a changed world now.
I don’t actually agree that it was the format that was the issue this year, many people are gleefully pointing out that we’ve crashed out early the first year of the Super 8’s so that must be the reason. Kerry were very fit IMO and had plenty of gas at the end of all the games but it was more an intensity that was missing. I think there is a huge issue with our coaching tbh, we have regressed each year since 2014, but particularly this year and last.
If this was a normal year with the old knockout QF we’d be gone had we met anybody bar Roscommon. Kildare would probably have beaten us at Croker if they had kept 15 on the field looking at how that first half was going. The new management team will have a big task next year and it has very little to do with the format.
Edit: just to add to this the last time kerry won Sam in 2014 they played six games, and the time before that in 2009 they played seven. So it’s hardly a massive ask for them to play six or seven each year going forward.0 -
I don’t actually agree that it was the format that was the issue this year, many people are gleefully pointing out that we’ve crashed out early the first year of the Super 8’s so that must be the reason. Kerry were very fit IMO and had plenty of gas at the end of all the games but it was more an intensity that was missing. I think there is a huge issue with our coaching tbh, we have regressed each year since 2014, but particularly this year and last.
If this was a normal year with the old knockout QF we’d be gone had we met anybody bar Roscommon. Kildare would probably have beaten us at Croker if they had kept 15 on the field looking at how that first half was going. The new management team will have a big task next year and it has very little to do with the format.
Absolutely. There are a few things the new management must do. Firstly clear out a few of the older lads. I would hope some of them see sense and retire before being pushed. No need to mention any names as we all know who Im on about.
Second thing is to find and stick with a fullback. Too much messing in this position, its not going to be Griffen, it isn't going to be Crowley either. It will be tough but it should be a priority.
Lastly, we have been rotating keepers for a few years now, its old and frustrating. Stick with one and cut out the flip flopping.
Re the hate mail, I have seen a few people question this. I know for a fact that Micko got loads of mail in the late seventies, some folks were brave enough to sign their name to it, most were not. Jack Connor also got a tonne of it' He had other things too that I won't even type, people think we are bad enough!
I can't speak for Pat O Shea but I would assume the late Paudi got it too.
I will never understand the mindset of those "fans". I mean would you actually be bothered your hole going to that length?
Fair enough I'm glad to see Fitzmaurice go but I wouldn't wish him any ill feeling. It's a tough job and I don't know why anyone would do it0 -
Just on Spillane, I see he is copping a bit of flack for his comments last night. Personally I dont think he said anything we didn't know. His point about the players being away in their own cocoon is spot on. If they were released a bit more to the clubs it would benefit everyone and there might be a bit more comradery with the supporters who travel all over the country to watch Kerry0
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Absolutely. There are a few things the new management must do. Firstly clear out a few of the older lads. I would hope some of them see sense and retire before being pushed. No need to mention any names as we all know who Im on about.
Second thing is to find and stick with a fullback. Too much messing in this position, its not going to be Griffen, it isn't going to be Crowley either. It will be tough but it should be a priority.
Lastly, we have been rotating keepers for a few years now, its old and frustrating. Stick with one and cut out the flip flopping.
Re the hate mail, I have seen a few people question this. I know for a fact that Micko got loads of mail in the late seventies, some folks were brave enough to sign their name to it, most were not. Jack Connor also got a tonne of it' He had other things too that I won't even type, people think we are bad enough!
I can't speak for Pat O Shea but I would assume the late Paudi got it too.
I will never understand the mindset of those "fans". I mean would you actually be bothered your hole going to that length?
Fair enough I'm glad to see Fitzmaurice go but I wouldn't wish him any ill feeling. It's a tough job and I don't know why anyone would do it
Yes the hate mail is ridiculous, I have no ill feeling towards Fitzmaurice and I don’t know anybody else that does either. I am glad he is gone for footballing reasons though. I don’t think he was going to improve things sufficiently and a new approach is required.
I’d add to your list that as well as sticking with a goalkeeper, significant work is needed on our own kickouts. This has been an issue for several years.
Secondly we need to bring in a coach who can implement a solid collective defensive system to stop teams running through us. Again, this has been a huge issue for years. I would say Morley was badly missed this year and would improve things immediately.
Jason Foley is our full back of the future but he needs time and better protection in front of him.
2019 will be about getting the basics right, finding a way of playing that works to our strengths and getting our young lads better settled. A few more will come in too no doubt.0 -
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Kerry supporters will have to wake up to the new world of All Ireland football championship. To win now in your have to win 7 games. Kerry won all theirs winning 3 or 4. They would be half fit and beat Cork in munster hit full fitness in August for a simi final and peak in September. The Kerry supporters have been reared to winning Titles but it a changed world now.
We had 7 games in 2009 and won the All Ireland, but thanks for your concern.0 -
ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »We had 7 games in 2009 and won the All Ireland, but thanks for your concern.
Also won the All Ireland after 8 games in 2006!0 -
I just came along to say better luck next year0
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While Eamonn's tenure will always be fondly remembered for the 2014 AI win, it will also be remembered for the tough losses against Dublin and now Galway.
What should never be forgotten is that Eamonn took on the job when nobody else was putting up their hand to take it because of the ageing squad and retirements at the time. He deserves great credit for that alone.
Where we stand now is that the candidates to replace him are either; unproven at senior level (Peter Keane, Maurice Fitz, Diarmuid M), tainted because of recent failures at U20/U21 (Jack), possibly unwilling to do the job again (Pat O'Shea), disliked by the county board (Liam Kearns).
So where does that leave us?? external candidates - heresy to some in Kerry and the pool of available managers is not great (Jim McG & James Horan) from a Kerry football culture perspective.
Who else is in the running for it?0 -
Hope it's Peter Keane. Did very well with a very average Legion team. Has done trojan work with the minors even though the talent coming through at that age has been phenomenal. He'd know all those players very well and I'm sure would be respected enough to get the absolute max out of them.0
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Its taken me a day or two to watch the fallout.
I listened to Terrace Talk and Pat Spillanes ignorant rant.
Ive only been attending Kerry games for Twenty years so can only speak to that period.
Paidi came in and inherited a good team and Galvanised them but 97 was down to Maurice Fitz from placed balls.
98 Kildare and Karl O Dwyer put us away in the performance of his life.
99 Cork beat us and we only scored 4 points from play.
00 we beat Galway in a replay. The semi against Armagh was the game of the Summer.
01. Maurice Fitz and Paudis relationship was gone. The camp was split and Meath destroyed us.
2002 Armagh got their revenge. That was a hard defeat by a point
03 was tyrone and puke football. Diving. killing the clock. Jack O Connor was totally out thought
04. We beat Mayo. Gooch was immense
05. Darren o sullivan v armagh. Tyrone beat us again with a flukey goal that wasnt cleared.
06. Star was born. We went Route 1. Mayo again.
07. O Connor out. Pat in. Cork in the final. Gooches punched goal.
08. Tyrone out fox the twin towers with clever positioning.
09. Jack is back. We scrape by Sligo and creak by westmeath to the earwig game and beat Cork.
10. Down dump us out early. We are rubbish tactically.
11. We lead Dublin for 65 minutes and somehow throw it away. Our keeper kicks it out immediately after the goal and Dublin get a winning point which Cluxton takes an age to kick.
12. Donegal choke us out. Jack is out. Tactical failure again.
13. Most of the golden generation are retired. No one wants the job. Eamonn steps up.
We play what is still the greatest game of football I have ever seen live blitzing Dublin with early goals before their bench puts us away.
14. We win an all ireland utilising brilliant flexible tactics. Donaghy saves us against Mayo. The replay goes to extra time. We match Donegal in the final. One of the best coached and tactically set up teams of all time and their keeper kicks it short to donaghy who passes it into the net. Gooch is out injured.
15. Dublin beat us in the rain. Deservedly.
16. Dublin dump us out when the ref missed a shoulder charge that would have put us two up at a critical time
17. We are the first team since Donegal to beat Dublin in the league final after a draw in Tralee where we could have win. Mayo put us away in a replay.
18. We Cruise through Munster playing beautiful football. Galway beat us in an ice rink. Monaghan should have beaten us at home. They are a good team. Their keeper was exceptional. We Tinker at half time and blow Kildare away.
Fitzmaurice was easily the best Kerry manager of my generation.
He had the balls to close training grounds to the gossip merchants and clearly worked on short kick outs and kick passing. Moving the ball quickly and players having enormous trust in the manager and each other.
When it worked it was phenominal to watch.
Our bench let us down in 13 and the elements in 15 which suited Dublins running game. Not even mickey harte could crack him and he learned from Donegal.
The criticism I hear are nepotism. Killian Young was on the panel on merit. I hear no kick out tactics from Spillane. A man who hasnt offered any meaningful analysis is 25 years as a bull**** artist pundit. A few weeks after the Sunday game analyse Kerrys bunch and break positioning on kick outs against Cork. Not by Pat.
Terrace Talk tonight was seeking to put the County board under pressure to release county players for league games. Not one made the point what if clifford or another key player breaks his leg in a nothing club game before a key championship game.
Kerry under Fitzmaurice had a plan. They went toe to toe and beat the most professional resourced and successful football team of all time on sub par players
Now he has built a team and the knives are out. I despair for Kerry football reading the bile the ignorant and downright stupid contributions in print media and in social media. I dont blame him for walking.
The replacements are untested -Keane. Proven tactical failures -O Connor. And a host of unknowns.
Kerry have lost a massive resource and I hope we dont come to regret it but no one with any sense will be cheering this as a positive step for Kerry football.0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »He....clearly worked on short kick outs and kick passing.Mr. Incognito wrote: »Kerry under Fitzmaurice had a plan.
What a load of crap.0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »Its taken me a day or two to watch the fallout.
I listened to Terrace Talk and Pat Spillanes ignorant rant.
Ive only been attending Kerry games for Twenty years so can only speak to that period.
Paidi came in and inherited a good team and Galvanised them but 97 was down to Maurice Fitz from placed balls.
98 Kildare and Karl O Dwyer put us away in the performance of his life.
99 Cork beat us and we only scored 4 points from play.
00 we beat Galway in a replay. The semi against Armagh was the game of the Summer.
01. Maurice Fitz and Paudis relationship was gone. The camp was split and Meath destroyed us.
2002 Armagh got their revenge. That was a hard defeat by a point
03 was tyrone and puke football. Diving. killing the clock. Jack O Connor was totally out thought
04. We beat Mayo. Gooch was immense
05. Darren o sullivan v armagh. Tyrone beat us again with a flukey goal that wasnt cleared.
06. Star was born. We went Route 1. Mayo again.
07. O Connor out. Pat in. Cork in the final. Gooches punched goal.
08. Tyrone out fox the twin towers with clever positioning.
09. Jack is back. We scrape by Sligo and creak by westmeath to the earwig game and beat Cork.
10. Down dump us out early. We are rubbish tactically.
11. We lead Dublin for 65 minutes and somehow throw it away. Our keeper kicks it out immediately after the goal and Dublin get a winning point which Claxton takes an age to kick.
12. Donegal choke us out. Jack is out. Tactical failure again.
13. Most of the golden generation are retired. No one wants the job. Eamonn steps up.
We play what is still the greatest game of football I have ever seen live blitzing Dublin with early goals before their bench puts us away.
14. We win an all ireland utilising brilliant flexible tactics. Donaghy saves us against Mayo. The replay goes to extra time. We match Donegal in the final. One of the best coached and tactically set up teams of all time and their keeper kicks it short to donaghy who passes it into the net. Gooch is out injured.
15. Dublin beat us in the rain. Deservedly.
16. Dublin dump us out when the ref missed a shoulder charge that would have put us two up at a critical time
17. We are the first team since Donegal to beat Dublin in the league final after a draw in Tralee where we could have win. Mayo put us away in a replay.
18. We Cruise through Munster playing beautiful football. Galway beat us in an ice rink. Monaghan should have beaten us at home. They are a good team. Their keeper was exceptional. We Tinker at half time and blow Kildare away.
Fitzmaurice was easily the best Kerry manager of my generation.
He had the balls to close training grounds to the gossip merchants and clearly worked on short kick outs and kick passing. Moving the ball quickly and players having enormous trust in the manager and each other.
When it worked it was phenominal to watch.
Our bench let us down in 13 and the elements in 15 which suited Dublins running game. Not even mickey harte could crack him and he learned from Donegal.
The criticism I hear are nepotism. Killian Young was on the panel on merit. I hear no kick out tactics from Spillane. A man who hasnt offered any meaningful analysis is 25 years as a bull**** artist pundit.
Terrace Talk tonight was seeking to put the County board under pressure to release county players for league games. Not one made the point what if clifford or another key player breaks his leg in a nothing club game before a key championship game.
Kerry under Fitzmaurice had a plan. They went toe to toe and beat the most professional resourced and successful football team of all time on sub par players
Now he has built a team and the knives are out. I despair for Kerry football reading the bile the ignorant and downright stupid contributions in print media and in social media. I dont blame him for walking.
The replacements are untested -Keane. Proven tactical failures -O Connor. And a host of unknowns.
Kerry have lost a massive resource and I hope we dont come to regret it but no one with any sense will be cheering this as a positive step for Kerry football.
I listened to Pat Spillane analysis I would not call it an ignorant rant. It was a measured response. Just because like all South Kerrymen he speaks fast dose that make what he says is a rant.
https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/the-sunday-game-extras-30003380/10916721/
Your own analysis seemed biased. I was at the match last Saturday evening. Tactically it was a disaster just like against Mayo the second day last year, the same as against Galway and Monaghan. He reverted to type when bring on subs. He bought on older players that should not be on the bench rather than younger players. It was a chance to blood one or two of them. He only bought on O'Bealaigh after White got injured.
Eamon Fitz was not ruthless enough allowing players to choose to retire rather than dropping them. Last year he persisted with Enright against Andy Moran after Enright was outplayed the first day, his taking off of Geaney in 2016 and of O'Donoghue in 2015 rather than the Gooch. On a wet day in 2015 his inaction cost us an All Ireland by leaving changes too late.
You need to wake up and smell the coffee.Slava Ukrainii
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Incognito, That statement that Fitzmaurice is the best manager of your generation..
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that statement is ridiculous in my view.
Jack O'Connor management teams of 2004 to 2009 are streets ahead of Fitzmaurice and his.
3 All Irelands , 3 National leagues. Improved tactically throughout those years, closed out the 2009 final for example.
Top level coaching and fitness levels throughout that time. Tactical innovation.
I could go on. Don't know what your attachement or connection to Fitzmaurice is, but your post above is borderline delusional.0 -
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Mr. Incognito wrote: »You have changed your Tune in 8 short weeks
where's the context? I don't know what you are on about here, and to be honest it is irrelevant, I have been more and more disheartened every year since our win in 2014, mostly with the management.0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote:Kerry under Fitzmaurice had a plan. They went toe to toe and beat the most professional resourced and successful football team of all time on sub par players
I think you need to go back a bit further than 20 years TBH.
If you did you'd see a Kerry team with a 4 and a 3 in a row in the 70/80, clearly a more successful team than this Dublin team on a 3 in a row and at that stage only a 2 in a row.
Talking about beating Dublin in the league like as if it was Offaly stopping a championship 5 in a row is embarrassing for a Kerryman imo.
The golden generation were not all gone in 2013. That was still a great Kerry team, he'd a lot to work with.
Again like Dublin in 1983, Kerry's 2014 win will always be under the shadow of avoiding Dublin and getting a good look at Donegal beforehand. A lot is being made of it now, like as if it was a masterstroke, it was a good win, but Donegal beating Dublin was the tactical master plan that year imo.
I liked Fitz, but some of his decision making was questionable
To add to the fantastic post thanked by so many above, I'd add the bluff bench put together for the game against Dublin in 2015.
Why was Tommy Walsh on the panel? He was never played, why not try him and Star against Dublin? If not why have him there?
Again, a good man, possibly needed Buckley back down from Mayo, but his line was a little too slow to spot things imo.0 -
16. It was definitely a shoulder charge but you were a point down at that stage. O'Gara had put the Dubs a point ahead in injury time -> shoulder charge -> Connolly went and got the final point afterwards.
The first 25 odd mins of that game, you were completely at sea. Dublin should have had it put to bed. But the high press / pressure that shook Dublin worked a gem, Cluxton was rattled and I would give Fitzmaurice huge kudos for that. It was quite clearly worked on.0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »Its taken me a day or two to watch the fallout.
I listened to Terrace Talk and Pat Spillanes ignorant rant.
What part of what Spillane said was inaccurate?
Ive only been attending Kerry games for Twenty years so can only speak to that period.
Paidi came in and inherited a good team and Galvanised them but 97 was down to Maurice Fitz from placed balls.
98 Kildare and Karl O Dwyer put us away in the performance of his life.
99 Cork beat us and we only scored 4 points from play.
00 we beat Galway in a replay. The semi against Armagh was the game of the Summer.
01. Maurice Fitz and Paudis relationship was gone. The camp was split and Meath destroyed us.
2002 Armagh got their revenge. That was a hard defeat by a point
03 was tyrone and puke football. Diving. killing the clock. Jack O Connor was totally out thought
Paidi was manager in 2003, not Jack. Tyrone were by far the better team and we were miles behind, tactically and in terms of conditioning.
04. We beat Mayo. Gooch was immense
05. Darren o sullivan v armagh. Tyrone beat us again with a flukey goal that wasnt cleared.
Delusional stuff. Tyrone were well deserved winners in a good game. What exactly was flukey about the goal? :rolleyes:
06. Star was born. We went Route 1. Mayo again.
07. O Connor out. Pat in. Cork in the final. Gooches punched goal.
08. Tyrone out fox the twin towers with clever positioning.
09. Jack is back. We scrape by Sligo and creak by westmeath to the earwig game and beat Cork.
10. Down dump us out early. We are rubbish tactically.
11. We lead Dublin for 65 minutes and somehow throw it away. Our keeper kicks it out immediately after the goal and Dublin get a winning point which Cluxton takes an age to kick.
Your memory/timeline is totally wrong again. Kevin Nolan put them 1 ahead after the goal, Donaghy equalised and then came Cluxton's late free.
12. Donegal choke us out. Jack is out. Tactical failure again.
13. Most of the golden generation are retired. No one wants the job. Eamonn steps up.
We play what is still the greatest game of football I have ever seen live blitzing Dublin with early goals before their bench puts us away.
14. We win an all ireland utilising brilliant flexible tactics. Donaghy saves us against Mayo. The replay goes to extra time. We match Donegal in the final. One of the best coached and tactically set up teams of all time and their keeper kicks it short to donaghy who passes it into the net. Gooch is out injured.
Best of all-time? Get a grip..McGuiness dropped McBrearty for the final, surely one of the biggest errors in a final of all time!
15. Dublin beat us in the rain. Deservedly.
Any further comment on that final perhaps? The changes made and not made? Bringing on Paul Galvin? Nothing to add there?
16. Dublin dump us out when the ref missed a shoulder charge that would have put us two up at a critical time
Yeah that was a bad call for the shoulder on Crowley. How about the untried, untested sweeper system? The crazy substitution of Geaney with the game level, for Marc O'Sé?
17. We are the first team since Donegal to beat Dublin in the league final after a draw in Tralee where we could have win. Mayo put us away in a replay.
Mayo DESTROYED us and our shambolic attempt at a sweeper system in the replay, let's be honest.
18. We Cruise through Munster playing beautiful football. Galway beat us in an ice rink. Monaghan should have beaten us at home. They are a good team. Their keeper was exceptional. We Tinker at half time and blow Kildare away.
Who gives a f*ck that we cruised through a lot of Div 2 teams? We were found badly wanting when really tested. We scored 9pts in 65 minutes in the Galway game. Clifford's last minute goal put a gloss on the scoreboard. How can you blithely skip over that performance?
Totally distorting the truth of the Kildare game aswell. "We tinker at half time"..tinker my eye. Kildare were down to 14 and we had more space.
Fitzmaurice was easily the best Kerry manager of my generation.
As I said, you must be related to the man to make this statement.
He had the balls to close training grounds to the gossip merchants and clearly worked on short kick outs and kick passing. Moving the ball quickly and players having enormous trust in the manager and each other.
Do you know the kickout stats from the Super 8 games or are you just ignoring them? Quote them there and prove me wrong. In the Kildare game a good half of our kickouts in the first half were kicked high in the air to the middle. An u14 club team wouldn't do it.
When it worked it was phenominal to watch.
Our bench let us down in 13 and the elements in 15 which suited Dublins running game. Not even mickey harte could crack him and he learned from Donegal.
The criticism I hear are nepotism. Killian Young was on the panel on merit. I hear no kick out tactics from Spillane. A man who hasnt offered any meaningful analysis is 25 years as a bull**** artist pundit. A few weeks after the Sunday game analyse Kerrys bunch and break positioning on kick outs against Cork. Not by Pat.
Was Killian Young picked for the Galway game at centre back and the Kildare game again at 6 on merit? Fitzmaurice took him off at half time on Saturday he was so bad.
Terrace Talk tonight was seeking to put the County board under pressure to release county players for league games. Not one made the point what if clifford or another key player breaks his leg in a nothing club game before a key championship game.
Kerry under Fitzmaurice had a plan. They went toe to toe and beat the most professional resourced and successful football team of all time on sub par players
Now he has built a team and the knives are out. I despair for Kerry football reading the bile the ignorant and downright stupid contributions in print media and in social media. I dont blame him for walking.
The replacements are untested -Keane. Proven tactical failures -O Connor. And a host of unknowns.
Kerry have lost a massive resource and I hope we dont come to regret it but no one with any sense will be cheering this as a positive step for Kerry football.
Kerry have lost a massive resource?
O'Connor is a tactical failure? He has won 3 Senior All Irelands, 2 U21s, 2 Minors and a Hogan Cup..some failure!!
You're delusional lad. No idea if you're a club mate of Fitz's or whatever but the blinkers need to come off!
I've commented on a few bits of your long post above there. Not an attack on you but just not having half truths go uncalled.0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »
11. We lead Dublin for 65 minutes and somehow throw it away. Our keeper kicks it out immediately after the goal and Dublin get a winning point which Cluxton takes an age to kick.Mr. Incognito wrote: »
16. Dublin dump us out when the ref missed a shoulder charge that would have put us two up at a critical time
Both of these games were similar and both managers should have gone after wards. In both games the ref failed to give us a free in 2011 the tackle on Declan O'Sullivan who was concussed was one of the reasons we lost the game. But in both games we still could have won if the manager made the righ changes.
In 2016 taking Geaney off was a disaster. In 2011 Jack made two mistakes he should have bought back on Kieran O'Leary who was subbed at half time instead of BJK and should have substituted D O'Sullivan as he was concussed.Slava Ukrainii
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PARlance wrote:I would give Fitzmaurice huge kudos for that. It was quite clearly worked on.
I completely disagree here PARlance.
This is exactly what I am taking about.
The tactic was deployed too early, the game management was poor. At half time Dublin fixed it, figured out the little trick around when the push up was applied. Cluxton composed himself and kicked the ball over the kerry team. Dublin were down at halftime. The Kerry management team had shown their hand too early, Dublin had the whole second half to address the issue.
20 to 15 minutes to go was the right time to try that, remember this was Dublin Kerry, off the back of strong finishes in 2011 and 2013 by Dublin, the form was established.
Tyrone timed it right last month, stay in the hunt and strike late in the game and manage the momentum of the game0 -
I completely disagree here PARlance.
This is exactly what I am taking about.
The tactic was deployed too early, the game management was poor. At half time Dublin fixed it, figured out the little trick around when the push up was applied. Cluxton composed himself and kicked the ball over the kerry team. Dublin were down at halftime. The Kerry management team had shown their hand too early, Dublin had the whole second half to address the issue.
20 to 15 minutes to go was the right time to try that, remember this was Dublin Kerry, off the back of strong finishes in 2011 and 2013 by Dublin, the form was established.
Tyrone timed it right last month, stay in the hunt and strike late in the game and manage the momentum of the game
To be fair Stoner, it was 9-4 to Dublin at one point and could have been 1-10 to 0-4 or so..at that point you probably have to go for it with whatever you have up your sleeve, before the game is beyond you?
I get what you are saying but the game was level pretty much on full time, so it was a tight enough one, BUT to be fair, Dublin were better on the day and could have had the game over after 20 mins.0 -
ciarriaithuaidh wrote:To be fair Stoner, it was 9-4 to Dublin at one point and could have been 1-10 to 0-4 or so..at that point you probably have to go for it with whatever you have up your sleeve, before the game is beyond you? I get what you are saying but the game was level pretty much on full time, so it was a tight enough one, BUT to be fair, Dublin were better on the day and could have had the game over after 20 mins.
That's fair enough, however it would have been possible to stick closer to Dublin, showing your complete hand before halftime when the other management team can address it was poor imo.
Look I know I'm pointing these things out with the benefit of time, but that's what makes a good management team, seeing these things in the middle of a game. That's what we are talking about here, not what punters like us see but what the guys being held up as the best Kerry manager in 20 years sees.
Again it could not all have been down to him.0 -
Mr incognito that’s ridiculously biased. You’ve glossed over great victories we had in the 00’s as if they were nothing and then talked up defeats in Eamons tenure as if we were hard done by. It should of course be noted that Paudi, Jack and Pat had much better players to work with.
Look, Eamon seems a thoroughly decent guy and he achieved great things during his tenure, overachieving between 2013-15 in all honesty. The wheels had come off though, and we have been badly outthought in big games in recent years. I don’t think he had the ability nor the backroom team around him to fix it and it’s time for a change.
I said last year that he was nuts to stay in the role after that Mayo replay because he would never get the time needed to integrate all those new players in to the team. It’s a 2-3 year project minimum and the knives were out for him even at that stage.
He was treated quite badly this year there is no doubt about it and I wouldn’t blame him one bit for being resentful after all he has done as a player and manager but I think he should have seen himself last year that his time was up. Was it his ego that wouldn’t let him walk away or did the county board convince him to stay? I don’t know, but I think he did his legacy damage by staying on too long. He could learn a thing or two from Jack O’Connor about timing, although even the great Jack seems to be losing his Midas touch in recent years.0 -
I completely disagree here PARlance.
This is exactly what I am taking about.
The tactic was deployed too early, the game management was poor. At half time Dublin fixed it, figured out the little trick around when the push up was applied. Cluxton composed himself and kicked the ball over the kerry team. Dublin were down at halftime. The Kerry management team had shown their hand too early, Dublin had the whole second half to address the issue.
20 to 15 minutes to go was the right time to try that, remember this was Dublin Kerry, off the back of strong finishes in 2011 and 2013 by Dublin, the form was established.
Tyrone timed it right last month, stay in the hunt and strike late in the game and manage the momentum of the game
I don't know about it being too early really. It was done at a stage when Kerry were out of the game. Still in it, but out of it, in reality. I remember texting a Kerry acquaintance at the time saying this didn't look good at all for them. It was hard to watch. They hadn't turned up and were lucky to be just the 5 points down. It was looking like a Dublin goal away from being a procession, ye didn't get it, which is a rarity.
The tactic itself deserves credit though. Too early? Well maybe, but to go with what I said above, ye only regained the lead in injury time iirc, so it was very mariginal. I don't think he could have foreseen that it would deliver a 9-10 point swing. I don't think he could have waited till after HT.
I'm just singling out one bit of positive for him. Overall, I think he has been a poor manager. He sent Kerry football backwards but towards the end, he had an aging team, big players that weren't big players enough of the time and new stars that weren't really stars of a Kerry calibre.
It's very usual as a Mayo man to not fear Kerry. He overseen that. I was very confident going into last years Semi replay and I was sure that we would win well* and that they wouldn't get through the Super 8s this year...and got a few funny looks for saying so.
(*I was actually very confident for a change, as opposed to the usual daft hopeful exuberance that we do so well)
Don't want to come onto the Kerry thread to rattle cages but he was an ordinary manager of an ordinary Kerry team...in relation to the high standards that have gone before him and them.0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »Its taken me a day or two to watch the fallout.
I listened to Terrace Talk and Pat Spillanes ignorant rant.
Ive only been attending Kerry games for Twenty years so can only speak to that period.
Paidi came in and inherited a good team and Galvanised them but 97 was down to Maurice Fitz from placed balls.
98 Kildare and Karl O Dwyer put us away in the performance of his life.
99 Cork beat us and we only scored 4 points from play.
00 we beat Galway in a replay. The semi against Armagh was the game of the Summer.
01. Maurice Fitz and Paudis relationship was gone. The camp was split and Meath destroyed us.
2002 Armagh got their revenge. That was a hard defeat by a point
03 was tyrone and puke football. Diving. killing the clock. Jack O Connor was totally out thought
04. We beat Mayo. Gooch was immense
05. Darren o sullivan v armagh. Tyrone beat us again with a flukey goal that wasnt cleared.
06. Star was born. We went Route 1. Mayo again.
07. O Connor out. Pat in. Cork in the final. Gooches punched goal.
08. Tyrone out fox the twin towers with clever positioning.
09. Jack is back. We scrape by Sligo and creak by westmeath to the earwig game and beat Cork.
10. Down dump us out early. We are rubbish tactically.
11. We lead Dublin for 65 minutes and somehow throw it away. Our keeper kicks it out immediately after the goal and Dublin get a winning point which Cluxton takes an age to kick.
12. Donegal choke us out. Jack is out. Tactical failure again.
13. Most of the golden generation are retired. No one wants the job. Eamonn steps up.
We play what is still the greatest game of football I have ever seen live blitzing Dublin with early goals before their bench puts us away.
14. We win an all ireland utilising brilliant flexible tactics. Donaghy saves us against Mayo. The replay goes to extra time. We match Donegal in the final. One of the best coached and tactically set up teams of all time and their keeper kicks it short to donaghy who passes it into the net. Gooch is out injured.
15. Dublin beat us in the rain. Deservedly.
16. Dublin dump us out when the ref missed a shoulder charge that would have put us two up at a critical time
17. We are the first team since Donegal to beat Dublin in the league final after a draw in Tralee where we could have win. Mayo put us away in a replay.
18. We Cruise through Munster playing beautiful football. Galway beat us in an ice rink. Monaghan should have beaten us at home. They are a good team. Their keeper was exceptional. We Tinker at half time and blow Kildare away.
Fitzmaurice was easily the best Kerry manager of my generation.
He had the balls to close training grounds to the gossip merchants and clearly worked on short kick outs and kick passing. Moving the ball quickly and players having enormous trust in the manager and each other.
When it worked it was phenominal to watch.
Our bench let us down in 13 and the elements in 15 which suited Dublins running game. Not even mickey harte could crack him and he learned from Donegal.
The criticism I hear are nepotism. Killian Young was on the panel on merit. I hear no kick out tactics from Spillane. A man who hasnt offered any meaningful analysis is 25 years as a bull**** artist pundit. A few weeks after the Sunday game analyse Kerrys bunch and break positioning on kick outs against Cork. Not by Pat.
Terrace Talk tonight was seeking to put the County board under pressure to release county players for league games. Not one made the point what if clifford or another key player breaks his leg in a nothing club game before a key championship game.
Kerry under Fitzmaurice had a plan. They went toe to toe and beat the most professional resourced and successful football team of all time on sub par players
Now he has built a team and the knives are out. I despair for Kerry football reading the bile the ignorant and downright stupid contributions in print media and in social media. I dont blame him for walking.
The replacements are untested -Keane. Proven tactical failures -O Connor. And a host of unknowns.
Kerry have lost a massive resource and I hope we dont come to regret it but no one with any sense will be cheering this as a positive step for Kerry football.
correction with Armagh in 2005 and Darren O Sullivan. That was 2006 QF stage.0 -
Mr. Incognito wrote: »I was at the Galway, Monaghan and Kildare game.
Gutted Fitzmaurice has stopped down. Too many fair weather fans calling for his head.
Will post something more worthy when im sober.
Too soon man, too soon.0 -
I’d say up until this time last year, Kerry fans were happy enough with Fitzmaurice. They had taken Dublin’s scalp in the league final and drew with them in Tralee. Kerry definitely had an edge in those games and they looked like a team on the up and a team that could pose Dublin problems if they had met in 2017 championship. They waltzed through Munster and looked fairly solid against Galway as well. Last year everyone was nearly confident of a Kerry Dublin final due to mayos sluggish form.
But... and here is the thing the two mayo games last year really was a catalyst for the end of Fitzmaurice term. Kerry got found out big time - defensively and offensively. Tactically, it was embarrassing- especially the Andy Moran situation. And in the end, Kerry went of the championship tamely. He probably should have walked last August. Things were not right- and yet he was offered 3 more years
The same problems arose this season. The Monaghan game was similar to that mayo game- only Monaghan had 1 forward- it would of been a route. A strange ending to his reign no doubt last Saturday but he was found out in the end on to many occasions.0 -
I’d say up until this time last year, Kerry fans were happy enough with Fitzmaurice.
Yes and no. The same complaints about poor kickouts, the goalie musical chairs situation, poor fitness and conditioning, defenders looking like headless chickens etc. have been repeated on here and other forums for years. It was nothing personal, people had genuine concerns about certain things. I don’t know who was doing the hands on coaching in this setup but I think that’s where the big issue was. All of the other top level teams looked better coached and prepared.
I’d agree that the Mayo replay last year was a bit of a nadir for Éamonn, there really was no way back after that and it’s a pity he didn’t leave then with a very credible record.0 -
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Good morning.
I posted that and the usual responses followed.
Punch and Judy.
He had a plan. No he didnt. Oh yes he did.
Personal attacks.
You must be a clubmate. Smell the coffee. Too soon man. For the record im Killarney.
Line by line retorts looking for irrelevant inaccuracies that have no bearing.
Ive no interest in reaponding to these.
Football points well made were kick outs. I was challenged to produce stats. If they were available I would but Monaghan had a superior keeper in Rory Beggan who got motm for a reason.
My reason for bringing up Jack was he was a poor manager imo. He had a divided team. They struggled against poor teams and were not consistent.
Kerry under Fitzmaurice put those teams away.
Im a Kerry supporter. If I thought he was poor in certain situations I say so. I didnt understand why Donaghy didnt come in against Galway. I hear now it was for disciplinary reasons. If so he stuck to his guns.
I recall gooch and one of the o ses being Spring from the bench after similar drops after being on the piss under Jack. What message did that send out.
People around here seem delighted.
I am not.
Im worried. If the new manager comes in and is dumped out against Cork in Munster are Kerry supporters going to be happy. Will we feck.
Im tired of this negativity. In Kerry and around the team. A supporter I know said he wasnt going to the Kildare team as a silent protest. Thats not a supporter. Thats an idiot. Kerry lost a poor game against Galway and a game against a Monaghan team who were clearly superior on the day. Theres no blame in that. Only hurt pride.
People here are irrational. Ill support the new manager and the team. Anyone who doesnt recognise Fitzmaurice for the top class manager he was simply doesnt want to and ill not change their mind.0
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