Kerry GAA discussion thread #2

dobman88

My point is management shouldn't have needed to make those changes. I said it here when the team was announced that it wouldn't work. The highest level I've played at is junior B so if a fella like myself can see it, it really shows how bad a decision it was.

Of course you have a "strongest" team, every team in every sport the world over has a strong starting team. Eamonn failed to start his strongest 15 in all 3 quarter final games this year imo

Mr. Incognito

dobman88 wrote: »

My point is management shouldn't have needed to make those changes. I said it here when the team was announced that it wouldn't work. The highest level I've played at is junior B so if a fella like myself can see it, it really shows how bad a decision it was.

Of course you have a "strongest" team, every team in every sport the world over has a strong starting team. Eamonn failed to start his strongest 15 in all 3 quarter final games this year imo

How would you know, or I know. Or anyone else know.

The only people that know are the players and the experienced people watching them at training every week.

You have an opinion. Everyone has the right opinion in hindsight.

In my mind there was no way Donaghy couldnt start. Players deserve to start based on performances.

I'd like to have seen the team mix it up more short and long but once again they took what was on in front of them.

Everyone is an expert in defeat.

I have more patience for this team and this manager. He has stepped down.

I think thats a bad decision.

In two years I will look back and we will know whether I am right or wrong. But remember the score around here when you go to see what side of the fence you guys were on.

I started the precursor of this thread in 2009 to discuss Kerry football. Not to attack my team, manager or other supporters.

If that's the level of contribution that is going to be expected in here it'll be the same 5 posters agreeing with each other every week.

keane2097

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Instead of debating any of these points I am being personally attacked and ridiculed.

The last vestage of someone who has no points to make is to attack the poster.

You would badly want to wind your own neck in chap.

A selection of some of your beauties over the last couple of days:

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

A man who hasnt offered any meaningful analysis is 25 years as a bull**** artist pundit. I despair for Kerry football reading the bile the ignorant and downright stupid contributions in print media and in social media.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

People here are irrational.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Too many sheep listening to clowns on Radio Kerry and Terrace Talk and repeating nonsense.

I see the same arrogant crap here.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

You stick to the tatttle in the pub there with other drunk lads who will agree with your nonsense.

Once again we have a cohort of fans who are blinkered to reality. Pick on one demonstrably false fact and think by collective bullying they can make it reality.

This really is just childish foolishness on here now.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

People want simplistic answers. They want to say- oh it's all his fault. As if that will paper over the cracks.

Taking an unrealistic blinkered approach or a totally stupid one such as Terrace talk advocating players being released for league games during the championship is wrong.

There are a LOT of posters here with no points to make other than ignorant attacks.

They are not supporters. They are the opposite. They are non supporters.

Your analysis involved posting two line summaries of games from the last 25 years, hardly 'rocket science' to put it in your own terms.

Giving out when people pointed out places where you had the manager, year and other details wrong, describing these inaccuracies as irrelevant.

If the details of your own analysis is not relevant, and having them corrected has no bearing on the conclusion, that suggests that the conclusion is not based on the analysis.

If the conclusion is not based on the analysis it might just as well be based on emotions - hmmmm...

Mr. Incognito

keane2097 wrote: »

You would badly want to wind your own neck in chap.

A selection of some of your beauties over the last couple of days:

Thank you for your wonderful insightful football analysis.

Oh, Sorry. You are the other guy.

The guy that just proved my point.

Have you anything to say on actual football topics? Tactics? Players? Managment?

Come on now. There must be an opinion you read somewhere you can use.

keane2097

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Thank you for your wonderful insightful football analysis.

Oh, Sorry. You are the other guy.

The guy that just proved my point.

How so?

The Talking Bread

Someone here still has the writing style thought to a 8 year old. A paragraph for each sentence?! Making your posts a half a thread page long doesn't make them any more valid.
I know it is off the topic and it will prompt you inevitably to play the victim of a "personal attack and ridicule", but Christ, it is hard to take someone seriously with a posting style like that.

keane2097

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Have you anything to say on actual football topics? Tactics? Players? Managment?

Come on now. There must be an opinion you read somewhere you can use.

Sorry, I was just pointing out that while you are crying about being personally attacked you have been using fairly combative ad hominem language yourself since you burst back onto the scene after telling us you needed to sober up.

ignorant
downright stupid
irrational
sheep listening to clowns (enjoyed this one the most)
arrogant
drunk lads
blinkered
bullying
childish foolishness
ignorant
non supporters

I presume you are capable of acknowledging that while complaining about 'posters here with no points to make other than ignorant attacks' you are guilty of a fair bit of ignorant attacking yourself?

If you want to have a discussion about football tactics and all I'm happy to do so. I think Ciarraithuaidh has made plenty of good points in the last two pages that you don't seem to have engaged with. I can rephrase them for you if you want? You could address the fact that your conclusions are not based on the details of your analysis being corrected, which seems a fairly major issue if you are going to claim to being open to having your opinion changed.

I don't have anything particularly novel to add myself, most people have the same three or four issues with this management ticket for the last several years.

Mr. Incognito

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Someone here still has the writing style thought to a 8 year old. A paragraph for each sentence?! Making your posts a half a thread page long doesn't make them any more valid.
I know it is off the topic and it will prompt you inevitably to play the victim of a "personal attack and ridicule", but Christ, it is hard to take someone seriously with a posting style like that.

We have another poster in for the title.

Have you any thoughts perchance on Kerry Football?

Tactics? Management? The Team? Where we stand. How the minors are integrating?

Who is going to make the step up?

No? Nothing? Maybe you and the lads could download a podcast and buy an opinion. They are free on Newstalk. Seems like a fair price for a nothing opinion.

Mr. Incognito

keane2097 wrote: »

I think Ciarraithuaidh has made plenty of good points in the last two pages that you don't seem to have engaged with. I can rephrase them for you if you want?

I don't have anything particularly novel to add myself, most people have the same three or four issues with this management ticket for the last several years.

Okay, Well that's a start I suppose. Sure. Have a crack at rephrasing someone elses opinon. We can all gloss over and lets pretend its your own.

So What's "your" opinion then. I'll be happy to go through it.

The Talking Bread

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

We have another poster in for the title.

Have you any thoughts perchance on Kerry Football?

Tactics? Management? The Team? Where we stand. How the minors are integrating?

Who is going to make the step up?

No? Nothing? Maybe you and the lads could download a podcast and buy an opinion. They are free on Newstalk. Seems like a fair price for a nothing opinion.

You alright, hun?

wonga77

I think you still haven't sobered up...

keane2097

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Okay, Well that's a start I suppose. Sure. Have a crack at rephrasing someone elses opinon. We can all gloss over and lets pretend its your own.

So What's "your" opinion then. I'll be happy to go through it.

If you are happy to own up to your own ignorant personal attacks as a starting point for a discussion I'll be happy to have one.

I will be presuming that our opinions will be subject to changing when our analysis is shown to be based on incorrect analysis as a given also? We can surely agree to that. Might as well be arguing with a child otherwise.

Mr. Incognito

keane2097 wrote: »

If you are happy to own up to your own ignorant personal attacks as a starting point for a discussion I'll be happy to have one.

I will be presuming that our opinions will be subject to changing when our analysis is shown to be based on incorrect analysis as a given also? We can surely agree to that. Might as well be arguing with a child otherwise.

Sorry.

I had to read that a couple of times. I dont understand it.

Can you reprase it?

Are you saying that any analysis that doesnt change your opinion is an incorrect analysis?

If so, and lets be clear, my contention is that no-one around here is capable of independent thought. It's why there is a cohort of people bleating the same three thoughts.

I dont expect any of you to change any opinions. You never formed any in the first place. You borrowed whatever simplistic opinions you could find that suitted your agenda of Kerry Lose. Manager Bad.

Mr. Incognito

The Talking Bread wrote: »

You alright, hun?

I think you still haven't sobered up...

So. That's a no to any meaningful thoughts. Okay. Well feel free to thank posters who form opinons that you can piggy back on.

Thank you for your insults and proving my point yet again. Please continue.

keane2097

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Sorry.

I had to read that a couple of times. I dont understand it.

Can you reprase it?

Are you saying that any analysis that doesnt change your opinion is an incorrect analysis?

If so, and lets be clear, my contention is that no-one around here is capable of independent thought. It's why there is a cohort of people bleating the same three thoughts.

I dont expect any of you to change any opinions. You never formed any in the first place. You borrowed whatever simplistic opinions you could find that suitted your agenda of Kerry Lose. Manager Bad.

Sure lookit, we'll just leave it off altogether. I doubt there's much prospect of an enjoyable or fruitful conversation here.

Just to note, a grown up wouldn't think of responding to the above with 'yeah I knew you wouldn't come up with anything'. Please resist the urge to do so.

wonga77

You're clearly too emotionally involved to even start reasoning with. All I have seen so far is everyone else is wrong and I am right.
There have been plenty of decent points made and you have glossed over them all. You have shrugged off the achievements of the other managers yet failed to see any flaws in the tactical genius that was EF.
Just to add, I haven't listened to terrace talk for years and years, id imagine most of the other posters are also capable of forming their own opinions, problem is that if they are different to yours then they are all just labelled as sheep

Mr. Incognito

I'll be here and quite willing to discuss any football with either of you at any time. Fan is short for Fanatic and I am fanatical about Kerry football.

If either of you have football posts to make.

I'd be interested who you think should get the job for instance.

I'd like to see Keane get it. Untested but we wont know until we try.

I don't rate O Connor with the players he had and how Mickey Harte turned him inside out and the bad blood that still exists from his book.

Speakerboxx

when will we find out about Kerry new manager? is there a timely process or will someone pop straight in soon?

Interesting to see who will get the new job? No disrespect intended by me to Pat Spillane the last nite on the Sunday game but i thought he was harsh on Fitzmaurice . Yes Fitzmaurice had to go and yes his tactics weren't working but did Pat Spillane offer his services to Kerry football as a manager? We can all sit on the chair and criticise someone and that's fair enough but as Spillane is the expert on Fitzmaurice and his failings as a Kerry manager why doesn't he step on board and fix the situation? Easy to criticise but people like Spillane shouldn't be taken seriously if they cant do something to help the situation. Yes I wasn't in favour with all of Fitzmaurices decisions throughout the years but he still did his best in that position and that's all anyone can ask a manager to do. I respect him for coming on board in 2013 and trying to bring Kerry football back on the map again. He won 1 All Ireland but it's an All Ireland and any year a team wins one it's a success.

Just a thought. Whoever gets the job will have few things to tidy up but no reason for Kerry not to be at the top again with some of the class players they have.

wonga77

Speakerboxx wrote: »

when will we find out about Kerry new manager? is there a timely process or will someone pop straight in soon?

Interesting to see who will get the new job? No disrespect intended by me to Pat Spillane the last nite on the Sunday game but i thought he was harsh on Fitzmaurice . Yes Fitzmaurice had to go and yes his tactics weren't working but did Pat Spillane offer his services to Kerry football as a manager? We can all sit on the chair and criticise someone and that's fair enough but as Spillane is the expert on Fitzmaurice and his failings as a Kerry manager why doesn't he step on board and fix the situation? Easy to criticise but people like Spillane shouldn't be taken seriously if they cant do something to help the situation. Yes I wasn't in favour with all of Fitzmaurices decisions throughout the years but he still did his best in that position and that's all anyone can ask a manager to do.

Just a thought. Whoever gets the job will have few things to tidy up but no reason for Kerry not to be at the top again with some of the class players they have.

Sure he's paid to give his opinion, I didnt see much wrong with it, he said that history would be kind to Fitzmaurice but pointed out the flaws that everyone else can see bar one or two. I might be wrong but didn't he put his name in for the U21's a few years ago?
Of course Kerry should be near the top again. We have won a shedload of minors so there is talent there. The other thing is that there isnt much else challenging for the top. The Dubs are the standout team.
Tyrone, Monaghan and maybe Donegal (McBrearty a huge loss) Nobody in Leinster really to challenge Dublin, Kildare a work in progress. Galway and maybe Mayo (be interesting to see how they regroup) and that leaves just Kerry.

Unless its completely left field then we have a fair idea of the new manager. I see Kearns name mentioned but not so sure. The bookies have installed Murphy as the favourite but I think that is heavily influenced by the article from Tony Leen in the examiner.
Dont think it will be JOC either, 2 terms was enough and besides, Mr Incognito's head would explode.
Not sure of Pat O Sheas work situation with the Munster council.
That leaves P Keane, he seems the obvious candidate, has good pedigree and knows the players.
If it is Keane then I wouldnt expect anything till the U17's are finished up.
Hard to know though really

dobman88

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I'll be here and quite willing to discuss any football with either of you at any time. Fan is short for Fanatic and I am fanatical about Kerry football.

If either of you have football posts to make.

I'd be interested who you think should get the job for instance.

I'd like to see Keane get it. Untested but we wont know until we try.

I don't rate O Connor with the players he had and how Mickey Harte turned him inside out and the bad blood that still exists from his book.

Fwiw, I've posted twice about who might be the new manager but you've missed it with all the noise in here.

I'd guess almost every person here is willing to talk about and discuss everything to do with Kerry football but you need to get the idea that everyone is against you out of your head. There's no personal attacks going on, it's a difference of opinion. Relax

ciarriaithuaidh

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I'll be here and quite willing to discuss any football with either of you at any time. Fan is short for Fanatic and I am fanatical about Kerry football.

If either of you have football posts to make.

I'd be interested who you think should get the job for instance.

I'd like to see Keane get it. Untested but we wont know until we try.

I don't rate O Connor with the players he had and how Mickey Harte turned him inside out and the bad blood that still exists from his book.

Just so we're clear here, Jack O'Connor was beaten by Mickey Harte ONCE in championship, the 2005 final. (He also was managing when we beat Tyrone under Mickey Harte in 2012)
A Tyrone team containing, Philip Jordan, Sean Cavanagh, Brian McGuigan, Peter Canavan, Brian Dooher, Stephen O'Neill etc One of the best teams I've seen and I'm sure most would agree on that.
You are saying "Mickey Harte turned him inside out" -based on this one defeat?
By any stretch of the imagination - this doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Kerry have lost to Dublin 3 times under Fitzmaurice...Would that count as being "turned inside out"?

But you have completely ignored anything I have pointed out repeatedly, factual or otherwise, so I don't expect anything back from you in the form of a reasoned argument. Just happen to have the time to contradict the nonsense you come out with. Do you even realise the amount of statements you have made in last 48 hrs that are just plainly false? I doubt it!

keane2097

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I'll be here and quite willing to discuss any football with either of you at any time. Fan is short for Fanatic and I am fanatical about Kerry football.

If either of you have football posts to make.

I'd be interested who you think should get the job for instance.

I'd like to see Keane get it. Untested but we wont know until we try.

I don't rate O Connor with the players he had and how Mickey Harte turned him inside out and the bad blood that still exists from his book.

I don't think it's reasonable to take time out of my day to discuss anything with someone who thinks I'm not capable of independent thought and not capable of changing my opinion because I never formed any in the first place and borrowed whatever simplistic opinions you could find to suit my agenda.

If you described me in the above manner in a pub in Killarney I'd laugh at you, call you a prick and talk to someone else instead. Telling someone they are incapable of independent thought and only parroting opinions off terrace talk is a serious slur, way worse than anything that has been levelled at you and it's something I'd ask you to apologise for if you had the gall to say it to me in person.

You do not have a monopoly on opinions relating to Kerry football.

If you want to take back those statements and believe me when I say that I'm talking about Kerry football from a position of having given it some thought over the years and have some genuinely held positions on it, fair enough. If not, I guess fair enough too.

ciarriaithuaidh

Speakerboxx wrote: »

when will we find out about Kerry new manager? is there a timely process or will someone pop straight in soon?

Interesting to see who will get the new job? No disrespect intended by me to Pat Spillane the last nite on the Sunday game but i thought he was harsh on Fitzmaurice . Yes Fitzmaurice had to go and yes his tactics weren't working but did Pat Spillane offer his services to Kerry football as a manager? We can all sit on the chair and criticise someone and that's fair enough but as Spillane is the expert on Fitzmaurice and his failings as a Kerry manager why doesn't he step on board and fix the situation? Easy to criticise but people like Spillane shouldn't be taken seriously if they cant do something to help the situation. Yes I wasn't in favour with all of Fitzmaurices decisions throughout the years but he still did his best in that position and that's all anyone can ask a manager to do. I respect him for coming on board in 2013 and trying to bring Kerry football back on the map again. He won 1 All Ireland but it's an All Ireland and any year a team wins one it's a success.

Just a thought. Whoever gets the job will have few things to tidy up but no reason for Kerry not to be at the top again with some of the class players they have.

Honestly, this was one of the few times I agreed with what Spillane said speaker..by the way, he has managed Kenmare to win a Kerry u21 title in the recent past, so he's not just a man for the soap box. He is actively involved at club level. He was Chairman of Templenoe, his club for a good while too. I wouldn't put him near a Kerry team myself though.

He is a terrible analyst most of the time and he's just not good for TV with his delivery, in my opinion.
Have to say though, I thought he articulated fairly well how a lot of people feel about last few years. I was waiting to see who was on TSG, hoping it wouldn't be Tomás as I knew he would just defend Fitz and deflect any criticism of his buddy.
Pat stated that the last 3 years have been a failure - they have. Cork have been rubbish since 2012 and Tipp are still a Div 2 team even though they have improved, so anyone trotting out the "6 munster championships" line, sorry, don't care. We measure ourselves by All Irelands, not Munsters.


Going forward, there is a committee meeting tomorrow night to appoint a sub-committee to select the new manager. Tony Leen in the Examiner is pushing Diarmuid Murphy for some reason. As far as I know he has never managed a team in his life, so why Leen feels he's qualified to manage Kerry I have no idea.
To me, Peter Keane is the best of what's available, BUT I would be disgusted if a big effort wasn't made to get Donie Buckley involved at least. We also need to have a proper S&C setup to bring the younger lads, not just the Senior squad, but the guys in the u20 setup, up to speed. Literally. Joe O'Connor was appointed to some role this year, but Joe is with the Limerick Senior hurlers, runs his own business AND is a lecturer in IT Tralee, so Kerry are well down his list of priorities. This isn't good enough. We need someone fully focused on Kerry Football, who is highly qualified for the role and an experienced coach. We've done enough bluffing in this regard in the last 5 years and it has cost us dearly.It's not fair to name people, but the coaching role with the Kerry Seniors has not been adequately filled since Cian O'Neill left, I think that's fair to say.

Cavan recently advertised a Full Time Athletic director role - If a county like Cavan are appointing someone, then it just shows you how important this is. Kerry Board need to act now, show some initiative and spine. They've done fantastically well to get the Currans project done, but pitches and clubhouses don't win you All Irelands, people do.

dobman88

Why did Cian O Neill leave? Have heard he wanted more of a say in picking the team and it was a non runner for EF and the selectors? Any truth to it?

Would agree Kerry haven't looked anywhere near as fit as they did with him around. Just look at the difference in Kildare the last couple of years, they're finishing games very strongly and no player looks out on their feet, they just don't have the footballers to do damage at the moment. Contrast that with Kerry who have an abundance of talent just not the fitness.

PARlance

dobman88 wrote: »

Why did Cian O Neill leave? Have heard he wanted more of a say in picking the team and it was a non runner for EF and the selectors? Any truth to it?

Would agree Kerry haven't looked anywhere near as fit as they did with him around. Just look at the difference in Kildare the last couple of years, they're finishing games very strongly and no player looks out on their feet, they just don't have the footballers to do damage at the moment. Contrast that with Kerry who have an abundance of talent just not the fitness.

For all the talk, I think it comes down to 2 main things:
He didn't have his team well enough prepared 1. Physically or 2. Tactically(defensively). And there really shouldn't be any excuse for either.

The_Honeybadger

dobman88 wrote: »

Why did Cian O Neill leave? Have heard he wanted more of a say in picking the team and it was a non runner for EF and the selectors? Any truth to it?

Would agree Kerry haven't looked anywhere near as fit as they did with him around. Just look at the difference in Kildare the last couple of years, they're finishing games very strongly and no player looks out on their feet, they just don't have the footballers to do damage at the moment. Contrast that with Kerry who have an abundance of talent just not the fitness.

He just left to manage his native county which is an understandable ambition. He has them flying alright and they just won the U20’s, I think they could be a real factor next year if they can hang on to Cian.

dobman88

mickeyk wrote: »

He just left to manage his native county which is an understandable ambition. He has them flying alright and they just won the U20’s, I think they could be a real factor next year if they can hang on to Cian.

Yeah that young lad up front, Flynn? Looked very dangerous.

Saw a piece today, can't remember who wrote it but it was comparing how Kerry focused on the senior team bringing Clifford and O Shea up but Kildare left Flynn to focus on the U20 and got their rewards. Not saying Kerry would have won the U20 with just the two lads but was an interesting point.

The_Honeybadger

dobman88 wrote: »

Yeah that young lad up front, Flynn? Looked very dangerous.

Saw a piece today, can't remember who wrote it but it was comparing how Kerry focused on the senior team bringing Clifford and O Shea up but Kildare left Flynn to focus on the U20 and got their rewards. Not saying Kerry would have won the U20 with just the two lads but was an interesting point.

Jimmy Hyland? Looks to be some prospect.

I don’t think it’s a stretch to say we’d have had a much better chance with Clifford and O’Shea but bringing them up was the right thing to do IMO.

C__MC

Are these letters real or a fictional myth in the GAA world?

I love to see an image of one.

The Talking Bread

dobman88 wrote: »

Yeah that young lad up front, Flynn? Looked very dangerous.

Saw a piece today, can't remember who wrote it but it was comparing how Kerry focused on the senior team bringing Clifford and O Shea up but Kildare left Flynn to focus on the U20 and got their rewards. Not saying Kerry would have won the U20 with just the two lads but was an interesting point.

Do you really think leaving Clifford to concentrate on Under 20 was ever seriously considered?
He was always going to be playing senior this year.

FWIW, Hyland was on the senior panel along with Masterson and O'Neill but as the Under 20s gathered momentum and our inside forward line was performing very well since the Carlow match, the risk factor of leaving him out was very small.

Thank god they didn't throw him on against Carlow to try rescue the game because that defeat was the best thing to happen to Kildare senior team in the last few years, all things considered, taking into account the year preceding it and the knock on effect of it when we entered the qualifiers.(and even a positive enough Super 8s)