Destiny 2 - where will it go from here?

Mitch Connor

So, I completed the raid last night - which is the second or third last of the main activities to complete (based on possible Iron Banner and Faction Rally to come) - so I think I am now in a position to discuss the issues with Destiny 2, where we think it could be going, how we think it should go - and what improvements do you think are required? What are the issues you see with the game?

One of the things I think is a big step backwards is the loot, and it came into sharp focus playing the raid last night. Raiding just isn't rewarding imo. Ran to the boss on two characters last week, and completed the raid this week. In terms of actual raid drops I have got the auto rifle, the sword and a helm. That just isn't good enough for the effort required. Now, I got tokens which amounted to 4 drops as well, but all significanly below the my light level, so offered no further actual progression in power.

Part of the reason for the low loot, imo, is the fixed rolls. there is no grind for armor with particular stats, which means once you have the helm, thats it - no need to get it again.

For fixed rolls you need WAY more weapons than Destiny provides. I don't think we are going to get that - so I think they need to create more fixed rolls (yes, that would bring it closer to random rolls from D1 so RNG issues...). Maybe 3 rolls per gun so it is still a low, and managed roll set, but we need more to grind for, imo.

I don't know if, or how, they will fix the loot, but I do think they need to look at it.

In terms of where Destiny will go from here - it will be very interesting to see what the expansion in December is like. It needs to be big, imo, to set the tone for Destiny 2 content drops - if it becomes a new 'Dark Below' it will create a big backlash. I do expect it to be a big drop. Also, really looking forward to it. Osiris themed, so likely Vex themed - which could open Io to greater use (what, two missions with Ikora then home?). The NPC on Io has some interesting vex links (is he becoming vex?) so there is some room for expansion there.

Kimbot

I like the loot as is for some reason. But the problem I am finding is most of the drops are in my vault because currently they are underpowered and when I top out on my power level that will change and I can look at it all then.

If i was to change something it would be to bring a 6 player pvp back, having a raid with 6 people is brilliant but breaking the group up for some PvP is stupid.

Mitch Connor

jonnycivic wrote: »

I like the loot as is for some reason. But the problem I am finding is most of the drops are in my vault because currently they are underpowered and when I top out on my power level that will change and I can look at it all then.

If i was to change something it would be to bring a 6 player pvp back, having a raid with 6 people is brilliant but breaking the group up for some PvP is stupid.

Yeah - I am really hoping 6 man PVP is brought back. I think the different teams sizes are stupid.

6 for raid.
4 for PVP.
3 for normal PvE.

Can't keep any level of consistency in the group you are playing with at the time, seems a very poor design choice imo.

I wonder if 6 man PvP could be brought back as a quick play option, via the Osiris DLC (which would make sense to be more PvP themed).

Kimbot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Yeah - I am really hoping 6 man PVP is brought back. I think the different teams sizes are stupid.

6 for raid.
4 for PVP.
3 for normal PvE.

Can't keep any level of consistency in the group you are playing with at the time, seems a very poor design choice imo.

I wonder if 6 man PvP could be brought back as a quick play option, via the Osiris DLC (which would make sense to be more PvP themed).

You could be right on the DLC thing, it would be brilliant to have it in but its not the end of the world if it doesnt happen.

Generic Dreadhead

Noy sure what thread to put this is in, but sure, here goes (spoilers kept vague)...

I'm being objective in a lot of respects here (and I'll go into more detail when I have more time), but imho...

Hopefully they have a better Raid than the Leviathan.
The Leviathan Raid in almost every respect feels like a way less interesting, sensible, epic and thrilling Raid than almost every single Raid in D1 (maybe Vanilla Crotas End aside).
3 encounters with very little combat and then loads of "busy work combat" in between those encounters in place of the intentional "down-time" parts of other Raids.
Follow that with the only Raid boss of the Raid and Boom, you're done and now you can visit the Belly of the Beast for your rewards to artificially inflate its run-time and gate your drops (timed!) in one of the most ham-handed and badly integrated Raid pieces ever, it doesn't feel like you're in the same Raid.
I wish I didn't feel this way, but I do. I spent a good 2 hours yesterday evening after we finished it pondering the whole thing (instead of sleeping).

And all I could think of was the 1st time reaching the awesome parts of the Transcept (Hive Ship Jumping Puzzle) in KF, heading down into Aksis No-Mans-Sky after the Server Farm in WotM or heading down the Trials of Kabr to reach the Templars Well in Vog.
Those "breathtaking" moments of awe on the 1st runs where you could have a bit of a chat and joke and laugh on the way then on repeat runs.
Then the encounters of the Leviathan when you compare them to the well thought out areas and battles like The Templar, Golgoroth and Vosiks just don't shape up well at all.
Then the scope and size and epicness of the Leviathan Boss compared to even Crota (nevermind Atheon and Oryx who blow him away) just left me feeling underwhelmed.

The Leviathan, for me, is probably the 2nd worse Destiny Raid (maybe even the worst, we'll see once Prestige mode comes) thus far.
The Live Team did a better job in sooooooo manny ways with WotM, how the Levithan didn't end up sitting somewhere on par with KF, I don't know.
And I hope Prestige Mode (given I cannot see Boss Challenges returning) adds some depth beyond the traditional 1 new minor mechanic per encounter

So, I hope the 2nd D2 Raid is better in almost every single way than what we got here.
It wasn't a terrible experience, just a lot of fur-coat-no-knickers.

Am I really that bothered to do it again?

Thats the thing... (editing my original post so as not to clog this thread up with my musings) but in the other Raids there was usually some scope to "carry" 1 total newbie the 1st time, just so they could see how the whole Raid played out (which is 10x better than watching or hearing or reading about it).
Like at the Sisters (baring the 1 in 6 chance you got taken), there could always be some random on "adds" for the whole encounter, at Vosiks, someone could die, someone else could throw 2 bombs or run 2 cannons.
I just feel like that balance of individual contribution mixed with those "clutch hero plays" isn't in the Raid (Datto NAILED this in his original WotM feedbac kvideo).
It just feels like "now, now children, all 6 of you have to be involved in all parts", which I get, it's something they've been working on since CE could be solo'd.
But it just feels like you can't carry or clutch which means it's an endless "Refer to YT Vid X or listen to me for 10 mins" as opposed to look "stand there, and you'll see how it plays out this time".

Mitch Connor

Generic Dreadhead wrote: »

Noy sure what thread to put this is in, but sure, here goes (spoilers kept vague)...

I'm being objective in a lot of respects here (and I'll go into more detail when I have more time), but imho...

Hopefully they have a better Raid than the Leviathan.
The Leviathan Raid in almost every respect feels like a way less interesting, sensible, epic and thrilling Raid than almost every single Raid in D1 (maybe Vanilla Crotas End aside).
3 encounters with very little combat and then loads of "busy work combat" in between those encounters in place of the intentional "down-time" parts of other Raids.
Follow that with the only Raid boss of the Raid and Boom, you're done and now you can visit the Belly of the Beast for your rewards to artificially inflate its run-time and gate your drops (timed!) in one of the most ham-handed and badly integrated Raid pieces ever, it doesn't feel like you're in the same Raid.
I wish I didn't feel this way, but I do. I spent a good 2 hours yesterday evening after we finished it pondering the whole thing (instead of sleeping).

And all I could think of was the 1st time reaching the awesome parts of the Transcept (Hive Ship Jumping Puzzle) in KF, heading down into Aksis No-Mans-Sky after the Server Farm in WotM or heading down the Trials of Kabr to reach the Templars Well in Vog.
Those "breathtaking" moments of awe on the 1st runs where you could have a bit of a chat and joke and laugh on the way then on repeat runs.
Then the encounters of the Leviathan when you compare them to the well thought out areas and battles like The Templar, Golgoroth and Vosiks just don't shape up well at all.
Then the scope and size and epicness of the Leviathan Boss compared to even Crota (nevermind Atheon and Oryx who blow him away) just left me feeling underwhelmed.

The Leviathan, for me, is probably the 2nd worse Destiny Raid (maybe even the worst, we'll see once Prestige mode comes) thus far.
The Live Team did a better job in sooooooo manny ways with WotM, how the Levithan didn't end up sitting somewhere on par with KF, I don't know.
And I hope Prestige Mode (given I cannot see Boss Challenges returning) adds some depth beyond the traditional 1 new minor mechanic per encounter

So, I hope the 2nd D2 Raid is better in almost every single way than what we got here.
It wasn't a terrible experience, just a lot of fur-coat-no-knickers.

Would agree with this in general.

My thought after completing it last night was: Am I really that bothered to do it again?

All the way through D1 I would have looked forward to going at the raid again a few times each week - only towards the end of each content was I not bothered with doing end game all the time - but this? Meh. Maybe it is just the grind of destiny as an IP waring off.

The gauntlett is the only section i find legitimately fun in this raid. WotM is a far better raid.

I will absolutely be running it again, a number of times, but i'm just not that borthered if it another run is tonight or again next week.

Josey Wales

For me the one thing I really want to see is the re-introduction of 6 man PvP teams. I'm still enjoying the Crucible but it seems more tense, competitive and a little less fun than Destiny 1. Also the inability to select Control to play anytime is really starting to annoy me. I like Supremacy as a mode but it seems to be heavily weighted towards that mode in the rotation.

Kirby

I found myself agreeing with the lack of loot at first and had you asked me a week ago, I may have agreed. The time to loot ratio seemed off. I had raided for 4 nights solid and had very little to show for it.

But if I look at what I have from the raid now? I've run it successfully twice and I have the raid specific Auto Rifle, SMG, Rocket launcher, Pulse Rifle, Sword, Chest, Arms, Boots and Cape(cape looks awful btw)....AND the quest for the raid shotgun. Thats most of the drop table to be fair. My light level is fairly boosted at this stage.

Maybe I'm lucky but I dunno. And maybe its because I spent a lot of time raiding since launch. But it's not just me. The other lads I'm playing with seem to have some decent gear from it too. You are gauranteed a 300 light drop from the final chest.

Week 2 we did Calus on our third try. The encounter took about half an hour. In and out.

But on week 1 we spent over seven hours wiping on Calus in a single session. We kept going til like 3 am. In all those failed attempts, legendary engrams were dropping. I ended up with something like 30 legendary engrams to open just from that last encounter. Some of these werent useful but some of them were. Could I have farmed more doing public events? Yeah maybe but it still seemed fair to me.

So on the loot front it seems fine.

On the fun front? Thats subjective. A lot of the people on reddit complaining about the mechanics are guys who havent played MMO's before. They come from Halo and COD and anything more complex than shooting a bad guy is something they dont want to here.

Personally, I've been "raiding" for years and the 6 man complexities of this raid pales in comparison to a 40 man raid so I've no issue with it. Encounters can't be just "shoot guy til dead". There surely has to be some challenge in endgame, no?

SeanHarty

6 man PvP definitely needs to be brought back and the match making needs to be quicker (felt like we spent more time match making last night than actually playing!)

also think 6 please PvE could be cool? just running around maps with six guys mincing crap, loads of supers and general craic, I know this could be done in destiny 1 by getting two people into the same world and all joining on them but there seems to be a load of loading areas on this game which I think could split those 3 man teams up?

gimli2112

some of the maps aren't conducive to 4v4 imo. you can spend ages looking for the enemy sometimes. It's like virtual hide and seek.

Generic Dreadhead

Also, my missus who just finished BotW was like "That gaf looks more like it belongs in Zelda than Destiny"

Mitch Connor

I do like that so much of the Raid feels like a brand new location - new architecture and assets etc. The underbelly is more familiar, but I like that the staging area and gaunlet, for example, are very different to what we see normally in our travels.

PhlegmyMoses

Josey Wales wrote: »

For me the one thing I really want to see is the re-introduction of 6 man PvP teams. I'm still enjoying the Crucible but it seems more tense, competitive and a little less fun than Destiny 1. Also the inability to select Control to play anytime is really starting to annoy me. I like Supremacy as a mode but it seems to be heavily weighted towards that mode in the rotation.

One of the biggest problems I am finding with Supremacy is that with Mida so prevalent, people aren't picking up their crests. Supremacy is supposed to be a CQB mode with stuff like Autos, SMGs, Sidearms, Shotties etc should be the go to guns.

Mickeroo

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

One of the biggest problems I am finding with Supremacy is that with Mida so prevalent, people aren't picking up their crests. Supremacy is supposed to be a CQB mode with stuff like Autos, SMGs, Sidearms, Shotties etc should be the go to guns.

It's actually made me enjoy supremecy more than the first game because people have to go close quarters if they want to win. Played matches where teams were destroying the other with kills but still lost due to not grabbing the tokens.

Generic Dreadhead

Vanilla D2 getting ripped to shreds by some valid points by TheLegendHimself/Slayerage

SolvableKnave

Generic Dreadhead wrote: »

Vanilla D2 getting ripped to shreds by some valid points by TheLegendHimself/Slayerage

He's pretty spot on with everything there.

Considering the mess, story wise D1 vanilla was, how transformative TTK was, and now how bland? D2 vanilla is, do you think D2, so far, could be considered to be the "Difficult Third Album"?

Generic Dreadhead

He's right about the Power Level number basically not mattering for the most part, and where the power level does matter, the actual content doesn't necessarily matter (i.e. Prestige Raid)

gimli2112

A lot of his criticism is valid. He does say he likes the game, wants an excuse to play it more and it's been value for money. There's certain things I don't like - the NF for example but I'd be more inclined to invest if it was rewarding - same with strikes.
I wouldn't agree with a view that it's thrash or necessarily a step backwards but clearly the end game needs looking at. I'm still playing it but really only to max LL probably, despite this being largely irrelevant.

Generic Dreadhead

Are you going to join in for a Raid in Sherpafest Gimli?

gimli2112

tbh all my worst Destiny experiences came in the Raid pre-Boards. It's kind of like a childhood trauma thing at this stage. Plus you all laughed at my jumping. Ah, I'm really not pushed on the Raid.

Generic Dreadhead

TIL: Gimli is exempt from friendly banter :P

SolvableKnave

Generic Dreadhead wrote: »

He's right about the Power Level number basically not mattering for the most part, and where the power level does matter, the actual content doesn't necessarily matter (i.e. Prestige Raid)

Indeed. Prestige NF 300 rewards what? Prestige Raid 300 rewards the same gear with different colours and Lore.

Beyond that, PL only matters as a minimum requirement for something. The fact that it is completely pointless for Competitive Crucible / To9 / IB begs the question of why have it.

gimli2112 wrote: »

A lot of his criticism is valid. He does say he likes the game, wants an excuse to play it more and it's been value for money. There's certain things I don't like - the NF for example but I'd be more inclined to invest if it was rewarding - same with strikes.
I wouldn't agree with a view that it's thrash or necessarily a step backwards but clearly the end game needs looking at. I'm still playing it but really only to max LL probably, despite this being largely irrelevant.

He mentions it in the vid, but props to Bungie for the world and encounter design. They look fantastic. The few strikes / NF I've done have been good encounters. The problem is the rewards.

The Raid: I've done each of the encounters twice, and finished it once. Again, it looks fantastic, the encounters are decent enough (Striker Titan Pulse nades just mince everything in it though). I'd love to WANT to raid every week, I want to, but it's not a WANT, like with VoG/CE/KF/WotM. The rewards aren't all that unique, no raid specific perks, and having to go fcuking traipsing around in the underbelly at the end for reward chests just ruins the immersion a raid should have.

Generic Dreadhead

I too WANT to WANT to but I just don't WANT to

Kimbot

SolvableKnave wrote: »

The Raid: I've done each of the encounters twice, and finished it once. Again, it looks fantastic, the encounters are decent enough (Striker Titan Pulse nades just mince everything in it though). I'd love to WANT to raid every week, I want to, but it's not a WANT, like with VoG/CE/KF/WotM. The rewards aren't all that unique, no raid specific perks, and having to go fcuking traipsing around in the underbelly at the end for reward chests just ruins the immersion a raid should have.

Actually you can do the traipsing around after each encounter instead of going back and doing the flags section again, should take around thesame lenght of time.

SeanHarty

Generic Dreadhead wrote: »

I too WANT to WANT to but I just don't WANT to

This.

SolvableKnave

jonnycivic wrote: »

Actually you can do the traipsing around after each encounter instead of going back and doing the flags section again, should take around thesame lenght of time.

It's still removing the immersion aspect. I can appreciate the work they put into the underbelly, the reason they implemented this type of checkpoint system for this raid with the way encounters are all accessible from the one central location.

Thoughts Time:
Load up the Raid. Get to the Courtyard. Proceed to relevant door (for that week) and open door as normal. As soon as the Standard Bearer for the final flag is killed, a huge claxon sounds and the Courtyard is flooded with Cabal. Fireteam runs through door and seals it shut behind them. From this point on you do not return to the Courtyard.
This allows for the weekly rotation order for the encounters, but also gives a reason, immersiably in raid, to use the Underbelly.

Now, from this point on you use the Underbelly to get to each proceeding encounter. To liven up the traversing of the Underbelly you will have mobs to deal with between each encounter.
This way, you are actively using the Underbelly in the raid as the Courtyard is now a no-go kill box if you step foot in it

There are 9 lootable chests in the underbelly (only 3 keys drop atm correct?). Now, instead of requiring a key to open, they can be opened like a normal chest. However, to open the chest, you have to kill the turret things (as is the case now), but instead of:

1. Kill all 4 turrets immediately to open chest or ....
2. Fail and kill a swarm of mobs and exit area to reset

You Kill all turrets at once and spawn a single yellow bar with adds, or....
Turrets get their white shields, 4 yellow bars spawn with adds, kill them, the shields drop, kill turrets, get chest.
This maintains the stealth mechanic of getting into position to take down all four turrets at once to give yourself an easier ride to the chest, or a tougher ride to chest

For the NM raid, you can only access 4 chest room encounters, for Prestige, all 9.

Generic Dreadhead

Pad that out a bit and post it to Reddit and reap that sweet sweet Karma what with all the moaning going on

SolvableKnave

Generic Dreadhead wrote: »

Pad that out a bit and post it to Reddit and reap that sweet sweet Karma what with all the moaning going on

:D

CDBWhoop

And while you've you're thinking cap on come up with a viable solution for the clan/community chat, world peace and the winning lotto numbers

SolvableKnave

Generic Dreadhead wrote: »

Pad that out a bit and post it to Reddit and reap that sweet sweet Karma what with all the moaning going on

I did it.

PetKing

SolvableKnave wrote:

Now, from this point on you use the Underbelly to get to each proceeding encounter. To liven up the traversing of the Underbelly you will have mobs to deal with between each encounter. This way, you are actively using the Underbelly in the raid as the Courtyard is now a no-go kill box if you step foot in it

Can we add in Richard O'Brien leading us from area to area with amusing tales about his batty mother? Oooh, and his harmonica while we solve puzzles!!