Cycling Ireland AGM 2017

Inquitus

Beasty wrote: »

The insurance only applies to sanctioned training. I suspect many leisure members don't appreciate that. The much larger insurance risks are likely to be 3rd party and from racing.

TBH although I have availed of the insurance pretty much up to the cap for medical expenses my PHI gives me better cover. I also get wider medical cover via the IVCA.

It will be interesting to see what happens at the AGM on these fee proposals. Racers need membership but leisure members are going to be a little more reticent.

I'll be at the track World Cup in Manchester so can't make it this year. Typically it's the racers that do turn up and I think these proposals will pass. If members do wish to protest they need to get their club to nominate them as a delegate.

What are the main differences between the CI Insurance and the IVCA insurance? As I understand the IVCA is more comprehensive, and the CI one only currently covers you on scheduled club training spins, not commuting or training alone or with a friend?

Has any progress been made on CI accepting the IVCA Insurance for racing? and was there any valid reason for them doing so last year?

ragazzo

Inquitus wrote: »

What are the main differences between the CI Insurance and the IVCA insurance? As I understand the IVCA is more comprehensive, and the CI one only currently covers you on scheduled club training spins, not commuting or training alone or with a friend?

Has any progress been made on CI accepting the IVCA Insurance for racing? and was there any valid reason for them doing so last year?

I was under the impression that the IVCA decided, in 2016, that they would not accept CI insurance for any of their events. CI riders who wished to race with the IVCA then had to take out full IVCA racing membership including insurance.
This had a knock on effect for club leagues with IVCA members having to take out CI Limited Competition licences to race as the IVCA decided that they would not cover any claims arising out of club races/leagues.

There also seemed to be a small problem of riders on IVCA licences entering and getting up in A4 open races.
IVCA riders were supposed to sign on and race at A3 level and above, not A4.

Resulting from this combination of circumstances, it seems that CI decided not to recognise IVCA racing licences for the 2017 season onwards.

Beasty

You get 3rd party cover whenever on "sanctioned training" as well as racing with CI. You only effectively get it in IVCA events (well actually it's the IVCA itself that gets it). You get personal injury cover with the IVCA whenever on a bike (although it certainly used to have a lower limit for claims) whereas CI offers it only when participating in CI events or "sanctioned" training. I think CI have recently increased the excess to something like €500 to try and keep a lid on premiums.

The reason that the IVCA insurance no longer covers you when racing CI events is that CI no longer recognises it (and that is entirely reasonable given the differing 3rd party cover). It as certainly not a decision taken, or indeed welcomed, by the IVCA.

The underlying issue for both organisations is that the costs of claims and therefore premiums has rocketed over recent years and their underwriters look for additional restrictions to keep those premiums down. In the past, certainly with CI, there was some discretion over what they allowed to be claimed, but I suspect the underwriters have clamped down on that also.

ragazzo

Beasty wrote: »

You get 3rd party cover whenever on "sanctioned training" as well as racing with CI. You only effectively get it in IVCA events (well actually it's the IVCA itself that gets it). You get personal injury cover with the IVCA whenever on a bike (although it certainly used to have a lower limit for claims) whereas CI offers it only when participating in CI events or "sanctioned" training. I think CI have recently increased the excess to something like €500 to try and keep a lid on premiums.

The reason that the IVCA insurance no longer covers you when racing CI events is that CI no longer recognises it (and that is entirely reasonable given the differing 3rd party cover). It as certainly not a decision taken, or indeed welcomed, by the IVCA.

The underlying issue for both organisations is that the costs of claims and therefore premiums has rocketed over recent years and their underwriters look for additional restrictions to keep those premiums down. In the past, certainly with CI, there was some discretion over what they allowed to be claimed, but I suspect the underwriters have clamped down on that also.

I still reckon that the IVCA, in 2016, decided to stop recognising CI licences and deemed the CI insurance as inadequate.
That was a decision taken by the IVCA.
I agree it was not a welcome decision.

Check out note 2 on the IVCA Racing Membership Application form for 2016 and 2017 for verification.

CI, as of the 2017 season, no longer recognise IVCA Licences for the reasons already outlined in my previous post.

andy69

Beasty wrote: »

You get 3rd party cover whenever on "sanctioned training" as well as racing with CI..... CI offers it only when participating in CI events or "sanctioned" training...

So, with CI, for anyone like myself who's unattached, we basically only have insurance cover while taking part in a CI event, but no cover at all while out for a spin?
And then even for people in a club, they only have cover on the official (for example) Tue/Thr/Sunday spins, and nothing if they can't make those spins and head out themselves?

I thought we had cover once on our beloved bikes, regardless of it being an official sanctioned spin by a club?
That's a pain really as I live outside the catchment area for any of the nearest clubs and can't take advantage of their official spins as their times and days don't suit.


EDIT: just see it there now in their Summary of Cover Docu on the website (http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/membership/insurance/insurance-documents3)... "Personal Accident covers all registered Cycling Ireland members of each affiliated Club ......in the event of an accidental injury during participation, including training....Training is deemed to be official sanctioned training only".

So no cover at all then for CI Members who aren't in a club?

ragazzo

andy69 wrote: »

So, with CI, for anyone like myself who's unattached, we basically only have insurance cover while taking part in a CI event, but no cover at all while out for a spin?
And then even for people in a club, they only have cover on the official (for example) Tue/Thr/Sunday spins, and nothing if they can't make those spins and head out themselves?

I thought we had cover once on our beloved bikes, regardless of it being an official sanctioned spin by a club?
That's a pain really as I live outside the catchment area for any of the nearest clubs and can't take advantage of their official spins as their times and days don't suit.

The following is taken from the FAQ's on the CI site. Makes more sense than sanctioned training etc.

"All Cycling Ireland members have personal accident and public liability insurance by virtue of their membership of Cycling Ireland. This insurance will cover you when you are out training or taking part in approved Cycling Ireland events. If you would like to be insured for training and events, you will need to join Cycling Ireland.

If you are injured or cause damage to a 3rd party (whether they are a Cycling Ireland member or not) whilst out training or at an approved Cycling Ireland event, you will need to fill out an accident and incident report form."

Beasty

andy69 wrote: »

So, with CI, for anyone like myself who's unattached, we basically only have insurance cover while taking part in a CI event, but no cover at all while out for a spin?
And then even for people in a club, they only have cover on the official (for example) Tue/Thr/Sunday spins, and nothing if they can't make those spins and head out themselves?

I thought we had cover once on our beloved bikes, regardless of it being an official sanctioned spin by a club?
That's a pain really as I live outside the catchment area for any of the nearest clubs and can't take advantage of their official spins as their times and days don't suit.

It's an interesting (and probably untested) point - it's reasonably clear what constitutes "sanctioned" training in a club context. It may be argued that non-attached member "sanction" their own training. I suspect the discretion that CI do still have would probably mean they may meet claims in these circumstances for personal injury, and that's largely because there's an element of "self insurance" (premiums essentially reflect claims). However 3rd party cover is very different. If you knock down a child when out "training" would cover extend to that third party? That's one I would imagine an underwriter may baulk at.

andy69

ragazzo wrote: »

The following is taken from the FAQ's on the CI site. Makes more sense than sanctioned training etc.

"All Cycling Ireland members have personal accident and public liability insurance by virtue of their membership of Cycling Ireland. This insurance will cover you when you are out training or taking part in approved Cycling Ireland events. If you would like to be insured for training and events, you will need to join Cycling Ireland.

If you are injured or cause damage to a 3rd party (whether they are a Cycling Ireland member or not) whilst out training or at an approved Cycling Ireland event, you will need to fill out an accident and incident report form."

Thanks, yeah saw that alright, and then I thought it was a bit 'general' and looked like sort of 'Marketing speak' to get ye to sign up...so went and looked into the document and found the more specific wording there (see my edited post above).

ford2600

Beasty wrote: »

It's an interesting (and probably untested) point - it's reasonably clear what constitutes "sanctioned" training in a club context. It may be argued that non-attached member "sanction" their own training. I suspect the discretion that CI do still have would probably mean they may meet claims in these circumstances for personal injury, and that's largely because there's an element of "self insurance" (premiums essentially reflect claims). However 3rd party cover is very different. If you knock down a child when out "training" would cover extend to that third party? That's one I would imagine an underwriter may baulk at.

"Official sanctioned training" is the wording in relation to personal accident insurance.

The wording for 3rd Party/public liability is very loose, which in contract law would benefit the lesser party in contact I would have thought?

All the early season threads here would lead the educated to assume there is a lot of racing crashes; if a lot of claims follow someone has to pay.

Leisure riders seem to be subsidising racing with next to useless PA cover. Id like to see the data though

ragazzo

andy69 wrote: »

Thanks, yeah saw that alright, and then I thought it was a bit 'general' and looked like sort of 'Marketing speak' to get ye to sign up...so went and looked into the document and found the more specific wording there (see my edited post above).

It seems a bit strange that a National Federation would have a large number of unattached or non club members, charge them a premium price ( club members pay a discounted price) for the same licence, advertise it as one thing and then leave those members swinging when the insurance is claimed on.

If unattached members are sold licences on the basis of insurance cover while they are training and participating then surely they are covered by that same insurance if they ever need it.
Being a member of a club on a club spin does not make one a less hazardous rider. Probably more spills on club spins than riders training on unsanctioned solo spins. What about cycling to the meeting point for this "sanctioned training"? Are you covered then or should you drive, take public transport or perhaps walk your bike to the sanctioned start.

What a load of rubbish!

guanciale

wav1 wrote: »

Whether you agree or disagree re licence costs that's a totally irresponsible suggestion..So let a National body take in someone as a member,and then let them off to cycle with no insurance if that's what they want.

But unless they are racing or on an organised club training spin leisure rides (& all riders) are already cycling uninsured. This is my understanding, if this is incorrect then please point this out.

I organise an audax event and participate in a small number of similar events. I appreciate the insurance coverage and would not put on the event without it. Yet i doubt it costs that much ler head.

Beasty

guanciale wrote: »

But unless they are racing or on an organised club training spin leisure rides (& all riders) are already cycling uninsured. This is my understanding, if this is incorrect then please point this out.

I organise an audax event and participate in a small number of similar events. I appreciate the insurance coverage and would not put on the event without it. Yet i doubt it costs that much ler head.

All cycling events put on by a club that take place within Ireland, be that club spins, races, or audax events, should be covered (although I suspect you do need to put in place management plans and file them with CI for anything more than a club spin)

If your audax event is put on by a CI affiliated club it will be insured. If it's arranged outside the club structure I think you should probably seek clarification directly from CI. If they do not confirm coverage, it would make sense to get a CI club behind it.

guanciale

^
All Audax Events are put on the calendar by an organising club, so they are indeed covered if a risk assessment is completed.

My point is that potentially the majority of time a leisure cyclist is on a bike they may not have cover. I think that the probability of injury at most audax events is similar to that any rider on a road by themselves.

Mass leisure events bring larger numbers and maybe a greater probability of crashing with others at the event.

Racing it seems as if the probability of crashing is material.

If the folks with the least probability of crashing face the greatest proportionate cost increase then the value of membership falls.

I think the risk is that many will eventually drift away and the revenue base of CI will decline.

Interesting to see that the underwriter is Catlin. For how long has this been the case? Post Brexit the liklihood of Catlin being able to provide cover to CI is low. Methinks the insurance cost will rise in that case as local players are likely to charge more for that business.

CI needs to seriously consider its revenue base and the forecast use of those funds.

morana

you are covered if you are a member of CI whether a club member or not. unless its changed since my time. "sanctioned training" is basically all training alone or in a group. once you have lycra on you are covered. cycling to the shop in jeans i wouldnt say you are covered. same way commuting if you are training while commuting you are covered.

The most annoying aspect of fee rises for me is budget overruns in the various hp programs. Also, CI should have had a rainy day fund which should have been considerable by now but alas i believe that isnt the case. Agian i said it at the time why should €5 be taken from a leisure cyclist to assist in racing events ...even youth ones. maybe i am being too harsh?

LEts hope the leisure commission is a good one.

ragazzo

morana wrote: »

you are covered if you are a member of CI whether a club member or not. unless its changed since my time. "sanctioned training" is basically all training alone or in a group. once you have lycra on you are covered. cycling to the shop in jeans i wouldnt say you are covered. same way commuting if you are training while commuting you are covered.

The most annoying aspect of fee rises for me is budget overruns in the various hp programs. Also, CI should have had a rainy day fund which should have been considerable by now but alas i believe that isnt the case. Agian i said it at the time why should €5 be taken from a leisure cyclist to assist in racing events ...even youth ones. maybe i am being too harsh?

LEts hope the leisure commission is a good one.

That is the insurance situation as I have always understood it. All CI members are insured whether members of a club or unattached.
No point in taking out a licence with insurance if one is not actually insured by same.
There are advantages and disadvantages to being a member of a club. It depends on what an individual expects from the sport and does not suit everyone. Sometimes it is safer and more craic to head out on your own or with a few mates. If you are not enjoying it then it won't last.

Beasty

I'm pretty sure that term "sanctioned" training only appeared after your time morana

When it comes to personal injury there probably still is some discretion although equally I think the rising costs of claims is going to naturally result in further scrutiny of claims at the CI level - that's because they pretty much pay out such claims via the following year's premiums

With 3rd party cover there is not going to be any discretion at the Ci level - these claims can potentially run to millions and, unlike personal injury, are a real risk to the underwriters, who are much more likely to scrutinise any claims

I am not overly concerned about the personal injury part of this personally, but I appreciate others are. I think the best way for members to get comfortable though would be for them to get individual confirmation from CI as to whether they are covered in specific circumstances (such as commuting or solo training).

NamelessPhil

It would be nice for CI actually answered queries as to the extent of the cover for specific events. I tried to get a response over the summer to a query about a specific event but no joy.

RobFowl

NamelessPhil wrote: »

It would be nice for CI actually answered queries as to the extent of the cover for specific events. I tried to get a response over the summer to a query about a specific event but no joy.

Go to the AGM and ask......

uck51js9zml2yt

I received this email from CI this morning


All Cycling Ireland members have personal accident and public liability insurance by virtue of their membership of Cycling Ireland. This insurance will cover you when you are out training or taking part in approved Cycling Ireland events or sportive.

A summary of insurance cover is outlined here: http://www.cyclingireland.ie/downloads/summaryofcover2017v2.pdf

Further information and documents can be accessed here: http://www.cyclingireland.ie/page/membership/insurance/insurance-documents3

Regards



I've asked about leisure cyclists who are not training or in sportifs

The GMan

Hi RobFowl

You seem to have a lot of background information, it might help us all understand a bit better.

RobFowl wrote: »

They kept the prices down for a long time but costs including insurance are going up all the time

What is the background to "keeping the prices down" ?
I don't think that any cost including insurance have gone up 100% in 4 years.

RobFowl wrote: »

The initial 25 was heavily subsidised.

I was never aware of this, what is the background, how/who "subsised" leisure membership ?

RobFowl wrote: »

CI provides a range of services, both insurance to members and event organisers. Discounts, advice. A network of clubs.

In reality the only service that CI provide to 95% of leisure member is insurance, (this was backed up survey of our members)

The GMan

cornet wrote: »

Not a hope the increases will be passed at the AGM

The reality is that it probably will be passed at the AGM unless something very different happens this year.

As far as I am aware two years ago the CI board proposed a €5 to leisure membership, the Munster branch them proposed €10 with €5 going to the provinces which was passed at the AGM.

NamelessPhil

RobFowl wrote: »

Go to the AGM and ask......

No point now given that I asked the question a month before the event and it is now some two months since the event.

RobFowl

I think its out there that I have some involvement with CI as a volunteer.
The insurance is important but as you say limited.
I is in reality a network of clubs and the real benefits come from being a member of one.
There is an isuue with leisure members who are not in clubs and the powers that be are aware of this.
Not sure what the solution is but the bets way to get an answer is to be part of a club and go to the AGM as a delegate.
CI traditionally was network of racing clubs and the emergence of leisure riders is changing the focus.
I've said it before but CI is not a monolith, it is us.
Get involved and push your agenda, you'd be surprised at what can be achieved.

morana

Beasty wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that term "sanctioned" training only appeared after your time morana.

i am sure i heard it at most of our discussions on insurance but who knows. the main thrust is that when training you are covered.


(maybe it was morana you are going to be sanctioned or sectioned or something like that!)

uck51js9zml2yt

seems to be very little point of leisure cyclists joining CI if we are not insured which is the main reason (at least for me) for joining

ednwireland

The price increases last year already lost us members and if this goes through I can see more.
I'm already looking at my club competition license and thinking is it worth for the few time trials I do each year.

Inquitus

ednwireland wrote: »

The price increases last year already lost us members and if this goes through I can see more.
I'm already looking at my club competition license and thinking is it worth for the few time trials I do each year.

Aye the unwelcome development between CI and the IVCA now means a January outlay of close to €400 for the relevant licenses, club dues etc. required to race club league and IVCA. Tis fairly hefty!

ford2600

Almost exactly 1000 registered mens race licences in 2017.

That's 125,000 to pay for all claims from A1 to A4, pay some to administer it, and pay from CI costs.

A pile up in a single race could put a dent in that

I can't see many companies lining up to get that business.

If you want cheap insurance premiums then the cover will be poor. You can't have it every way.

Lusk_Doyle

ford2600 wrote: »

Almost exactly 1000 registered mens race licences in 2017.

That's 125,000 to pay for all claims from A1 to A4, pay some to administer it, and pay from CI costs.

A pile up in a single race could put a dent in that

I can't see many companies lining up to get that business.

If you want cheap insurance premiums then the cover will be poor. You can't have it every way.

CI is not the only customer of the insurer though. The premiums collected would most probably extend far beyond that collected from CI. The basis of insurance premiums is that the premiums of many pay for the claims of the few.

CramCycle

ednwireland wrote: »

The price increases last year already lost us members and if this goes through I can see more.
I'm already looking at my club competition license and thinking is it worth for the few time trials I do each year.

I know a few who have made the choice already and more will be lost next year to the ICVA, not a huge number but a few from every club is enough.

Inquitus wrote: »

Aye the unwelcome development between CI and the IVCA now means a January outlay of close to €400 for the relevant licenses, club dues etc. required to race club league and IVCA. Tis fairly hefty!

Despite the comments made here, I have heard other versions elsewhere and I imagine the truth is somewhere in between. It is certainly something someone from CI needs to step up and extend the Olive branch for and see can a compromise be found.

ford2600 wrote: »

Almost exactly 1000 registered mens race licences in 2017.

That's 125,000 to pay for all claims from A1 to A4, pay some to administer it, and pay from CI costs.

A pile up in a single race could put a dent in that

I can't see many companies lining up to get that business.

If you want cheap insurance premiums then the cover will be poor. You can't have it every way.

Your also missing the point that the 125000 is in no way just for insurance, that is admin, race numbers, money towards certain events. This said with the higher amount before payout, and for many the cost of a crash being less than that amount, it might not be as much as you think. The largest payout I have heard of is from a certain poster, who doesn't like to talk about it. I have crashed twice this year and claimed nothing from CI.