Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

Nomis21

How do you think this will pan out?

Will it go the way of the Bus Eireann dispute this Summer... Passengers discommoded for weeks before an agreement is reached.

Or will the Government make a stand causing the collapse of Irish rail?

Or will the Government capitulate and then attempt to privatise the railways?

None of the above?

Hammer89

Nomis21 wrote: »

Will it go the way of the Bus Eireann dispute this Summer... Passengers discommoded for weeks before an agreement is reached.

There's no toilets on the Dart.

Kimbot

MOD Moved to Commuting & Transport, please take note of the charter.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Hammer89 wrote: »

There's no toilets on the Dart.

It's the unions favorite word when there's a strike.

Nomis21

Toilets on the dart is not the issue the Unions are striking for


discommode:

ˌdɪskəˈməʊd
verb formal
cause (someone) trouble or inconvenience.

Jamie2k9

They will probally strike for a day or two. It sure won't be the "mother of all strikes" as the NBRU said about the BE one.

WomanSkirtFan8

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

They will probally strike for a day or two. It sure won't be the "mother of all strikes" as the NBRU said about the BE one.

Indeed. I can foresee this going the exact same way as the BE strike. Probably won't last too long if the company does indeed go bankrupt and they then have to start making people redundant. :cool:

Stephen15

WomanSkirtFan8 wrote: »

Indeed. I can foresee this going the exact same way as the BE strike. Probably won't last too long if the company does indeed go bankrupt and they then have to start making people redundant. :cool:

The way these things seem to go it the company will not go bankrupt. Nearly all state owned railways around the world are heavily in debt and verging on 'bankruptcy' but miraclously manage to keep going. Whether you like or not IE and the unions aren't going anywhere any time soon.

Nomis21

Stephen15 wrote: »

The way these things seem to go it the company will not go bankrupt. Nearly all state owned railways around the world are heavily in debt and verging on 'bankruptcy' but miraclously manage to keep going. Whether you like or not IE and the unions aren't going anywhere any time soon.

Yes, but unlike IE, many European railways are operated by private companies where the unions have far less power.

If there is another strike on IE then I think privatisation is on the cards...

ClovenHoof

Along with their insatiable greed, the unions are thicko bastards too. The BE 'mother of all strikes' played perfectly into the Government's hands and they came out with nothing other than a PR disaster for themselves. Irish Rail unions appear to be just as moronic and will also play themselves into the same trap.

The days of when Irish people were gullible and supported semi state unions striking are well and truly dead. The only ones who have not figured this out yet are the CIE unions.

Hilly Bill

Nomis21 wrote: »

Yes, but unlike IE, many European railways are operated by private companies where the unions have far less power.

If there is another strike on IE then I think privatisation is on the cards...

Half the company is already privatised.

Stephen15

Nomis21 wrote: »

Yes, but unlike IE, many European railways are operated by private companies where the unions have far less power.

If there is another strike on IE then I think privatisation is on the cards...

So DB, SNCF, FS, NS, SNCF, OBB and Renfe are all private companies.

The UK is one of the only countries if not the only to have a privatised or franchised railway and even there, there is strikes. You honly to look at the whole Southern Rail dispute to realise that private transport companies are not immune to strikes.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Half the company is already privatised.

Come on it's so not true, union spin is what it is.

You are referring to the company split??

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Come on it's so not true, union spin is what it is.

You are referring to the company split??

Who own the shares of each company?

Jamie2k9

Nomis21 wrote: »

Yes, but unlike IE, many European railways are operated by private companies where the unions have far less power.

If there is another strike on IE then I think privatisation is on the cards...

Union grip on IE is fast diminishing, largely self inflected through reckless actions over the last number of years and most recently BE and IE lads (some only) deliberately causing disruption to IE service in solidarity. I don't think unions have grasped how much damage it has done even if they annoyed some workers in IE who wanted no involvement. Most of the old boys probally don't care anyway.

The NBRU announcement today just shows they have no interest in the talks at WRC even if IE are just as bad. Nobody gets a pay rise for nothing so expecting it is just going though the motions before they decide to ballot.

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

Who own the shares of each company?

The Goverment, they have split the company into infrastructure and operations. More less an adjustment of paperwork after the EU regulation change.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The Goverment, they have split the company into infrastructure and operations. More less an adjustment of paperwork after the EU regulation change.

That's what I thought.

How can it be privatisation when both the companies involved in running the railway and it's operations are owned by the government's public bodies.

Banjoxed

Nomis21 wrote: »

Toilets on the dart is not the issue the Unions are striking for


discommode:

ˌdɪskəˈməʊd
verb formal
cause (someone) trouble or inconvenience.

Whatever happened to Cooked Breakfast on the Luas? That was my favourite meme in 2003.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Come on it's so not true, union spin is what it is.

You are referring to the company split??

Nope, most of Irish Rail's workings is contracted out.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Nope, most of Irish Rail's workings is contracted out.

Ah right, it's normal these days and it's hard to argue against some elements of it when it can be done for so much less and the same job.

Stephen15

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Nope, most of Irish Rail's workings is contracted out.

Its only really secondary operations that are sub-contracted such as cleaning, security and catering staff. Not really privatisation drivers, station staff, revenue protection, signalling, clerical, maintenence and control room staff are all employed by IE.

There is a difference between contracting something out and privatisation it. Telecom Eireann was privatised IE is not just because it sub contracts does not mean its privatised.

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

Its only really secondary operations that are sub-contracted such as cleaning, security and catering staff. Not really privatisation drivers, station staff, revenue protection, signalling, clerical, maintenence and control room staff are all employed by IE.

There is a difference between contracting something out and privatisation it. Telecom Eireann was privatised IE is not just because it sub contracts does not mean its privatised.

Certain heavy maintenance work is also contracted out these days, but yes even a privatized company will contract out the same stuff.

Hilly Bill

Stephen15 wrote: »

Its only really secondary operations that are sub-contracted such as cleaning, security and catering staff. Not really privatisation drivers, station staff, revenue protection, signalling, clerical, maintenence and control room staff are all employed by IE.

There is a difference between contracting something out and privatisation it. Telecom Eireann was privatised IE is not just because it sub contracts does not mean its privatised.

Lot of the track work that was by the per way is now done by contractors, on track machines like the tampers are contractors, booking system is operated by an English company who sub contracts it to some crowd in Germany. Customer care /telesales is done by some crowd in clonakilty. Some other crowd will soon have control of the ticket machines and the booking offices.
All that will happen if there was ever a full privatisation is a different name for people to moan about.

Marty Bird

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Lot of the track work that was by the per way is now done by contractors, on track machines like the tampers are contractors, booking system is operated by an English company who sub contracts it to some crowd in Germany. Customer care /telesales is done by some crowd in clonakilty. Some other crowd will soon have control of the ticket machines and the booking offices.
All that will happen if there was ever a full privatisation is a different name for people to moan about.

Specialist track work is contracted out like bridge renewal and it’s still under IE staff supervision, plant machinery has always been operated by contractors, the rest are the IT systems hardly privatization when the front line staff still operate them.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Lot of the track work that was by the per way is now done by contractors, on track machines like the tampers are contractors

All specialist per way work is undertaken by contractors and generally always has been, it is still overseen by IE per way staff. All non specialised per way work is still in house but contracted hired in plant has always been the case.

OTMs are operated jointly by IE staff and Balfour staff, Balfour are contracted to perform out-road general maintenance and some heavy maintainance also on OTMs, the rest is in house.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

booking system is operated by an English company who sub contracts it to some crowd in Germany.

No, the booking system is operated by IE, the system was provided by Cubic Transportation Systems (a US company) with IT side of the system provided for by Sqills (a Dutch company). Cubic provide technical support to IE who still actually run the system.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Customer care /telesales is done by some crowd in clonakilty.

Yes, the company is Capita, however this is (like any contract) simply contracting out someone to handle a part of a business, that is not privatisation, IE still retain control over Capita in relation to how it handles the service.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Some other crowd will soon have control of the ticket machines and the booking offices.

Again this is like the booking system, IE manage and maintain with Cubic offering technical support where required.

devnull

GM228 wrote: »

No, the booking system is operated by IE, the system was provided by Cubic Transportation Systems (a US company) with IT side of the system provided for by Sqills (a Dutch company). Cubic provide technical support to IE who still actually run the system.

Yes butthe journey planner part of the booking system is from HaCon who also make the app

Infini

Regardless of the issue over the pay rise theres another issue brewing over the pensions and thats the big one. Company has refused for the last few years to pay up its fair share and theres more money going out of the scheme than in (due to staff level reductions amongst other factors). That just cant keep going on and thats a factor too because last I heard the inability to pay excuse was used on that too.

Theres other things Ive heard myself but not 100% on but one of them is that theres accouting tricks being used to hide money and increased revenue by hiding it in the Infrastructure budget instead of the RU section. Point being made is passenger levels are back to boomtime levels but the company is "unable to pay". That doesnt make sense.

Throw in management who dont even listen to their own staff on some basic matters and seem to only ever come round to antagonise and your getting bad blood all round. Theres also the issue with the booking offices and the staff there. The company stated earlier in the year that the customer first program wouldnt result in closures and job losses but now theyre doing just that. The only ones that are going to be retained are mostly ones which have clerical staff as their T&C prevent them from just being forced out unlike the traffic staff. They feeling is theyre intentionally undermining the staffs jobs so they can make excuses to gdr rid of then. Management just dont care what feedback staff give they only care for their own agendas. This just leads to a complete loss of trust which more than half the staff in the company do not have in management.

Maybe striking isnt the best option but there seems to be few options to anything else either. It feels like the place is being run down so it can be hived off. Staff are just excess baggage to managent and theyre not interested in working with or listening to them. Its not just about pay anymore its about job security too.

McAlban

Stephen15 wrote: »

So DB, SNCF, FS, NS, SNCF, OBB and Renfe are all private companies.

The UK is one of the only countries if not the only to have a privatised or franchised railway and even there, there is strikes. You honly to look at the whole Southern Rail dispute to realise that private transport companies are not immune to strikes.

I work for a section of DB. It is essentially operated as a private company. The Board report to the German exchequer alright and they are expected to pay a dividend to the exchequer.

Their Train Drivers basic pay is also half of what IE's is

Jamie2k9

Infini wrote: »

Regardless of the issue over the pay rise theres another issue brewing over the pensions and thats the big one. Company has refused for the last few years to pay up its fair share and theres more money going out of the scheme than in (due to staff level reductions amongst other factors). That just cant keep going on and thats a factor too because last I heard the inability to pay excuse was used on that too.

Theres other things Ive heard myself but not 100% on but one of them is that theres accouting tricks being used to hide money and increased revenue by hiding it in the Infrastructure budget instead of the RU section. Point being made is passenger levels are back to boomtime levels but the company is "unable to pay". That doesnt make sense.

The pension thing has always been a ticking time bomb.

As for accounting tricks it happens everywhere and I say fair play if IE are doing it. If they made a 10 million profit last year unions would squander the whole lot of it. Then again it's just gossip which has probally gotten legs among staff. A lot of infrastructure has largely been left hanging or patched up over the last 5-6 years so it actually could be genuine spend.

Passenger numbers are past peak levels but online fares are down and you have major revenue losses in Sallins this year with Leap and even the Leap revenue since introduced as reduced prices so naturally numbers will grow.

I don't think the pay increase is a big issue just the amount %. Unions could offer some productivity but always go into these talks knowing they will fail and IE then propose completely unreasonable demands as a result and you strike and then you talk and IE get 70-80% of what they wanted before unions walked out.

Throw in management who dont even listen to their own staff on some basic matters and seem to only ever come round to antagonise and your getting bad blood all round. Theres also the issue with the booking offices and the staff there. The company stated earlier in the year that the customer first program wouldnt result in closures and job losses but now theyre doing just that. The only ones that are going to be retained are mostly ones which have clerical staff as their T&C prevent them from just being forced out unlike the traffic staff. They feeling is theyre intentionally undermining the staffs jobs so they can make excuses to gdr rid of then. Management just dont care what feedback staff give they only care for their own agendas. This just leads to a complete loss of trust which more than half the staff in the company do not have in management.

Maybe striking isnt the best option but there seems to be few options to anything else either. It feels like the place is being run down so it can be hived off. Staff are just excess baggage to managent and theyre not interested in working with or listening to them. Its not just about pay anymore its about job security too.

I do agree there is a management problem in general but are they really forcing staff out or are those staff just refusing to operate on trains as it might actually means a days work. Plenty of station staff at quieter stations have a great life with today's set up.

______

What I want to know is why IE dropped the NBRU action or did they settle outside of court?

GM228

McAlban wrote: »

I work for a section of DB. It is essentially operated as a private company. The Board report to the German exchequer alright and they are expected to pay a dividend to the exchequer.

Realistically DB is no differnt to IE, both being companies with 100% share capital held by the Government.

McAlban wrote: »

Their Train Drivers basic pay is also half of what IE's is

DB drivers are not paid a basic of half what IE drivers are paid, they are on €848.88 basic per week compared to IEs €1060 - far more than half the IE rate, however when you look at hourly rates DB drivers are on a higher basic wage.

Until 2015 DB drivers were on €42,000 basic for 39 hour contracts, following the 2015 strikes they got a basic of €44,142 for 39 hours (to reduce to 38 hour contracts early next year with the same annual pay), IE drivers have 48 hour contracts - represents a €0.30c per hour higher pay rate for DB drivers than IE drivers.

IE drivers = €22.13 per hour.
DB drivers = €22.33 per hour.

Plenty about it when you Google, here's a few results:-

http://m.dw.com/en/german-train-drivers-earn-less-than-youd-think/a-18467783

http://m.dw.com/en/german-train-drivers-end-historic-strike/a-18441882

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/news/german-rail-operator-train-drivers-end-wage-dispute-000900244.html

devnull

Infini wrote: »

Throw in management who dont even listen to their own staff on some basic matters and seem to only ever come round to antagonise and your getting bad blood all round. Theres also the issue with the booking offices and the staff there. The company stated earlier in the year that the customer first program wouldnt result in closures and job losses but now theyre doing just that. The only ones that are going to be retained are mostly ones which have clerical staff as their T&C prevent them from just being forced out unlike the traffic staff. They feeling is theyre intentionally undermining the staffs jobs so they can make excuses to gdr rid of then. Management just dont care what feedback staff give they only care for their own agendas. This just leads to a complete loss of trust which more than half the staff in the company do not have in management.

Maybe striking isnt the best option but there seems to be few options to anything else either. It feels like the place is being run down so it can be hived off. Staff are just excess baggage to managent and theyre not interested in working with or listening to them. Its not just about pay anymore its about job security too.

I want station staff to say but only on the condition that they do a lot more than they are at the moment, if they don't want to perform duties other than selling tickets then I can see the management of Irish Rail's point that they can be dispensable because of the fact that ticket machines can do that. If Irish Rail staff want to have job security there should be less of a "it's not my job" attitude and maybe there would be more reason to keep them there.

My local station staff member constantly kept saying his job was to sell tickets, not give customer service advice, travel advice, make announcements, stop fare dodgers or to provide updates to passengers or help people with difficulties to the train. If staff want job security than they need to make themselves work so hard and do so much that the people would be up in arms if they left and had a backlash against Irish Rail but the staff as they are now can be considered excess baggage, so if I was them I'd try and make sure that I was seen as an asset rather than a liability by going the extra mile for their customers, it doesn't happen though.

If you go to some of the smaller stations in the UK and in other European countries a lot of small stations are one man bands, one person checks tickets, provides updates, travel advice, makes announcements, offers customer service, assist people with their luggage if required, proactively helps people on the platform. In Irish Rail someone sits behind a desk near the gates which are often left open even when staffed, twiddles his thumbs on his phone saying anything apart from selling tickets is not his job.

The staff need to become customer ambassadors and customer service staff rather than dedicated ticket sellers if they are to survive.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

I want station staff to say but only on the condition that they do a lot more than they are at the moment, if they don't want to perform duties other than selling tickets then I can see the management of Irish Rail's point that they can be dispensable because of the fact that ticket machines can do that. If Irish Rail staff want to have job security there should be less of a "it's not my job" attitude and maybe there would be more reason to keep them there.

My local station staff member constantly kept saying his job was to sell tickets, not give customer service advice, travel advice, make announcements, stop fare dodgers or to provide updates to passengers or help people with difficulties to the train. If staff want job security than they need to make themselves work so hard and do so much that the people would be up in arms if they left and had a backlash against Irish Rail but the staff as they are now can be considered excess baggage, so if I was them I'd try and make sure that I was seen as an asset rather than a liability by going the extra mile for their customers, it doesn't happen though.

If you go to some of the smaller stations in the UK and in other European countries a lot of small stations are one man bands, one person checks tickets, provides updates, travel advice, makes announcements, offers customer service, assist people with their luggage if required, proactively helps people on the platform. In Irish Rail someone sits behind a desk near the gates which are often left open even when staffed, twiddles his thumbs on his phone saying anything apart from selling tickets is not his job.

The staff need to become customer ambassadors and customer service staff rather than dedicated ticket sellers if they are to survive.

if the staff are to do more work then they must be obligated to do it as part of their terms of employment when they sign new contracts. if something isn't someone's job then they aren't going to do it, that's fair enough. if they aren't obligated to do something as part of their terms of employment, then that is ultimately the company's fault for not insuring that as part of their terms of employment.
i'd suggest that in the uk staff have to check tickets and so on as part of their terms of employment rather then off their own back.

Infini

devnull wrote: »

My local station staff member constantly kept saying his job was to sell tickets, not give customer service advice, travel advice, make announcements, stop fare dodgers or to provide updates to passengers or help people with difficulties to the train.

To be fair he doesn't have to let them in BUT he doesn't have to chase them either. The reason for that is security issue's as well as the fact that the Travelling Checkers are meant to be out there to get people who do that. As for people with difficulties usually the staff in the smaller stations WILL help people who are struggling or need a ramp if the ask for it that was always the case. Staff will make announcement's as well to some degree if there are none from CTC who usually do them though most of the time.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

I want station staff to say but only on the condition that they do a lot more than they are at the moment, if they don't want to perform duties other than selling tickets then I can see the management of Irish Rail's point that they can be dispensable because of the fact that ticket machines can do that. If Irish Rail staff want to have job security there should be less of a "it's not my job" attitude and maybe there would be more reason to keep them there.

My local station staff member constantly kept saying his job was to sell tickets, not give customer service advice, travel advice, make announcements, stop fare dodgers or to provide updates to passengers or help people with difficulties to the train. If staff want job security than they need to make themselves work so hard and do so much that the people would be up in arms if they left and had a backlash against Irish Rail but the staff as they are now can be considered excess baggage, so if I was them I'd try and make sure that I was seen as an asset rather than a liability by going the extra mile for their customers, it doesn't happen though.

If you go to some of the smaller stations in the UK and in other European countries a lot of small stations are one man bands, one person checks tickets, provides updates, travel advice, makes announcements, offers customer service, assist people with their luggage if required, proactively helps people on the platform. In Irish Rail someone sits behind a desk near the gates which are often left open even when staffed, twiddles his thumbs on his phone saying anything apart from selling tickets is not his job.

The staff need to become customer ambassadors and customer service staff rather than dedicated ticket sellers if they are to survive.

The reality is that your local station staff could for example welcome you to the station with the morning paper and a cup of fresh coffee, sort out your travel plans, help you onto the train and get you a seat every day all year and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference wether that person gets kept, or transferred or not. It's all down if the station is busy or not and even then it's not a given.

ED E

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The reality is that your local station staff could for example welcome you to the station with the morning paper and a cup of fresh coffee, sort out your travel plans, help you onto the train and get you a seat every day all year and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference wether that person gets kept, or transferred or not. It's all down if the station is busy or not and even then it's not a given.

Not sure how you expect your post to have any credibility when GM has just torn your previous ones to shreds.

Jamie2k9

ED E wrote: »

Not sure how you expect your post to have any credibility when GM has just torn your previous ones to shreds.

To be fair at this stage it's really is down to numbers and staffed stations. There is no point introducing enhanced duties because it would be near impossible to get it done or cost a small fortune.

if the staff are to do more work then they must be obligated to do it as part of their terms of employment when they sign new contracts. if something isn't someone's job then they aren't going to do it, that's fair enough. if they aren't obligated to do something as part of their terms of employment, then that is ultimately the company's fault for not insuring that as part of their terms of employment.
i'd suggest that in the uk staff have to check tickets and so on as part of their terms of employment rather then off their own back.

We all have contracts however most of us go beyond what is stated in our contracts.

Hilly Bill

ED E wrote: »

Not sure how you expect your post to have any credibility when GM has just torn your previous ones to shreds.

Your opinion.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

All specialist per way work is undertaken by contractors and generally always has been, it is still overseen by IE per way staff. All non specialised per way work is still in house but contracted hired in plant has always been the case.

OTMs are operated jointly by IE staff and Balfour staff, Balfour are contracted to perform out-road general maintenance and some heavy maintainance also on OTMs, the rest is in house.





No, the booking system is operated by IE, the system was provided by Cubic Transportation Systems (a US company) with IT side of the system provided for by Sqills (a Dutch company). Cubic provide technical support to IE who still actually run the system.





Yes, the company is Capita, however this is (like any contract) simply contracting out someone to handle a part of a business, that is not privatisation, IE still retain control over Capita in relation to how it handles the service.





Again this is like the booking system, IE manage and maintain with Cubic offering technical support where required.

Unless you class shoveling as a specialist job then contractors are doing per way work with per way lads doing lookout for them. This is aside from work in work sites in a possession. Balfours operates all the tampers etc which used to be operated by Irish rail with the per way doing the protection.
It won't be long that it will only the tracks themselves that will be in Irish Rail's ownership and the rest will be tendered off to the lowest bidder with the threat of strikes filling this page again.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Unless you class shoveling as a specialist job then contractors are doing per way work with per way lads doing lookout for them. This is aside from work in work sites in a possession. Balfours operates all the tampers etc which used to be operated by Irish rail with the per way doing the protection.
It won't be long that it will only the tracks themselves that will be in Irish Rail's ownership and the rest will be tendered off to the lowest bidder with the threat of strikes filling this page again.

General "shoveling" is not normally done by contractors, contractors do do some shoveling when it is associated with a job they are doing.

IE still have at least two operatives for OTMs, the rest is Balfour staff.

All that aside the point is that contracting out is not the same as privatisation, when you contract out you still retain control of the overall operation, something which is lost upon privatisation - they are not comparable.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

General "shoveling" is not normally done by contractors, contractors do do some shoveling when it is associated with a job they are doing.

IE still have at least two operatives for OTMs, the rest is Balfour staff.

All that aside the point is that contracting out is not the same as privatisation, when you contract out you still retain control of the overall operation, something which is lost upon privatisation - they are not comparable.

They don't generally but mcrorys and global rail are doing the donkey work with the per way doing the protection. It used to be just on various projects or various jobs on nights now it's mcrorys assisting the per way and global rail assisting the S&E Point being it could lead to a situation where Irish rail could decide that its better value to retain all the contractors and get rid of core staff. I

end of the road

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

An experienced train driver earns approximately €60,000.

it's an experienced specialist job, so of course they will earn a good wage.

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

Their workload hasn't increased so their pay should only increase with inflation like it does with everyone else.

their workload has increased in the past 8/9 years or so with the removal of staff from most long distance trains. they can look for a raise, just like everyone else does.

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

If they continue to throw the toys out of the pram, then we should give them an ultimatum. Continue working or face dismissal. Those that choose to continue working will be be kept on the payroll, those that strike (which I assume will be the vast majority) will be sacked.

not cost effective and would lead to possibly a couple of years no service for no gain. they are entitled to strike whether you agree with them or not and your suggestion is unworkable. the new staff even with your proposed no strike contract would have other avenues open to cause disruption if it is warrented. so you aren't solving anything and disrupting people long term just to stop 1 day of disruption.

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

We should just suspend the rail service for five or six months and sack all the staff who don't want to work, start from scratch and build a rail network that isn't built on nepotism, greed, incompetence, rudeness towards the customers and laziness.

would possibly take a couple of years, as you won't have all the staff required to run it trained within 6 months, especially with nobody to train them seeing as you will have sacked the trainers as well. even if you didn't sack the trainers, and didn't cut huge corners leading to an unsafe operation, you still wouldn't get it done within 6 months.

Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »

Hire all new workers on no strike contracts.

no point, no strike contracts don't work as there are ways around them.

Creative83

€60,000 per year for Irish Rail train drivers.... up to €50,000 for Luas drivers. Good god, truly a Micky mouse state run by unrealistic Union greed

Hilly Bill

Not many drivers on 60k. There are many other grades in Irish Rail apart from drivers. It's not all about drivers.

end of the road

mini_Sapphire wrote: »

€60,000 per year for Irish Rail train drivers.... up to €50,000 for Luas drivers. Good god, truly a Micky mouse state run by unrealistic Union greed

no, just pay rates reflecting the nature of the jobs. train drivers earn good wages generally. the wages quoted are for the drivers at the top scale, the most experienced drivers, of which there are only a few. you want train drivers you have to pay.

XPS_Zero

end of the road wrote: »

if the staff are to do more work then they must be obligated to do it as part of their terms of employment when they sign new contracts. if something isn't someone's job then they aren't going to do it, that's fair enough. if they aren't obligated to do something as part of their terms of employment, then that is ultimately the company's fault for not insuring that as part of their terms of employment.
i'd suggest that in the uk staff have to check tickets and so on as part of their terms of employment rather then off their own back.

yOU KNOW IN real jobs in the real world every little thing you might be asked to do is not LITERALLY listed in your contract?

It's called flexibility.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The reality is that your local station staff could for example welcome you to the station with the morning paper and a cup of fresh coffee, sort out your travel plans, help you onto the train and get you a seat every day all year and it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference wether that person gets kept, or transferred or not. It's all down if the station is busy or not and even then it's not a given.

Did you read his post? He said the public would not stand for it if they were that helpful. I already hear a lot of grumbling from people annoyed that my local station is unstaffed 95% of the time, where they go to work in the AM tagging their leap cards meanwhile Dekko and Tommo sail by in their sparkling white tracksuits without paying a dime, you still have a few old timers stragglers left with the old passes who need paper tickets, people who want a ticket to an intercity destination instead of having to buy again in CC, people who want questions answered when they're confused about where to go

Already that's a major thing, but if they were actually you know...good...at customer service the public would never tolerate them being crapped on they'd support them in industrial action. It's not unions protecting terms and conditions and preventing abuse people hate it's unions protecting sloth, inefficiency and laziness that is why when CIE and the likes of DSP and HSE go on strike nobody supports them because peoples personal experience with those agencies is nearly universally negative, because they've no customer service ethos they don't see themselves as a public service they see the public as an irritation or annoyance they are burdened with dealing with.

Were trying to tell you that if you took up that ethos (widely, I know SOME have it in those agencies though not many) it would HELP you and get you more support. Don't blindly just rely on the fact that as state employees you can never be fired, those days are going to ebb away. You need a base of public support and you won't get it by sayin "sarry luve dats not in me contract".

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

yOU KNOW IN real jobs in the real world every little thing you might be asked to do is not LITERALLY listed in your contract?

i do yes. because i'm in a real job in the real world. and i don't get obligated to do things that aren't part of my job description.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

It's called flexibility.

no it's called being asked to do things that aren't part of the job. in relation to the topic at hand, i would agree that what devnull suggested should be part of the job of station staff, so the company have to implement that in the contracts.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Already that's a major thing, but if they were actually you know...good...at customer service the public would never tolerate them being crapped on they'd support them in industrial action. It's not unions protecting terms and conditions and preventing abuse people hate it's unions protecting sloth, inefficiency and laziness that is why when CIE and the likes of DSP and HSE go on strike nobody supports them because peoples personal experience with those agencies is nearly universally negative, because they've no customer service ethos they don't see themselves as a public service they see the public as an irritation or annoyance they are burdened with dealing with.

no it's because they are jealous of the terms conditions and wages. i have had bad experiences over the years with state agencies however if the staff feel they have a genuine greevence then they have a genuine greevence and my support will be on the basis of the information rather then my experiences of the agency. unions protect terms and conditions only, it's up to the company to deal with inefficientsy and lazy staff.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Were trying to tell you that if you took up that ethos (widely, I know SOME have it in those agencies though not many) it would HELP you and get you more support.

no it wouldn't. it really wouldn't.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Don't blindly just rely on the fact that as state employees you can never be fired, those days are going to ebb away. You need a base of public support and you won't get it by sayin "sarry luve dats not in me contract".

no no . the luas and plenty of other strikes which have had little public support, have shown us that while a base of public support is nice, it ultimately doesn't help the workers get a good deal.

Cookie_Monster

end of the road wrote: »

i do yes. because i'm in a real job in the real world. and i don't get obligated to do things that aren't part of my job description.

Of course you do. You cannot refuse any reasonable request or requirement by you employer, you JD is not the be all and end all

https://employmentrightsireland.com/tag/employment-contract/
Terms implied by law paragraph

john boye

end of the road wrote: »

no it's because they are jealous of the terms conditions and wages.

I'm struggling to understand how you could actually believe that.

Hilly Bill

XPS_Zero wrote: »

yOU KNOW IN real jobs in the real world every little thing you might be asked to do is not LITERALLY listed in your contract?

It's called flexibility.



Did you read his post? He said the public would not stand for it if they were that helpful. I already hear a lot of grumbling from people annoyed that my local station is unstaffed 95% of the time, where they go to work in the AM tagging their leap cards meanwhile Dekko and Tommo sail by in their sparkling white tracksuits without paying a dime, you still have a few old timers stragglers left with the old passes who need paper tickets, people who want a ticket to an intercity destination instead of having to buy again in CC, people who want questions answered when they're confused about where to go

Already that's a major thing, but if they were actually you know...good...at customer service the public would never tolerate them being crapped on they'd support them in industrial action. It's not unions protecting terms and conditions and preventing abuse people hate it's unions protecting sloth, inefficiency and laziness that is why when CIE and the likes of DSP and HSE go on strike nobody supports them because peoples personal experience with those agencies is nearly universally negative, because they've no customer service ethos they don't see themselves as a public service they see the public as an irritation or annoyance they are burdened with dealing with.

Were trying to tell you that if you took up that ethos (widely, I know SOME have it in those agencies though not many) it would HELP you and get you more support. Don't blindly just rely on the fact that as state employees you can never be fired, those days are going to ebb away. You need a base of public support and you won't get it by sayin "sarry luve dats not in me contract".

Anybody who thinks they can't be fired is an idiot. Public don't care as to what issues you have with the company, they just want to go about their business with the least amount of hassle and they won't be marching down O'connell street for you to keep your job or a pay rise.
Where do you get this not in my contract nonsense from?

Hilly Bill

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Of course you do. You cannot refuse any reasonable request or requirement by you employer, you JD is not the be all and end all

https://employmentrightsireland.com/tag/employment-contract/
Terms implied by law paragraph

Define a reasonable request.

Cookie_Monster

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Define a reasonable request.

provide assistance to customers, make station announcements, keep the station in a tidy presentable manner, be presentable... etc