Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

end of the road

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

provide assistance to customers, make station announcements, keep the station in a tidy presentable manner, be presentable... etc

i agree. so management should insure they are in the terms of employment and enforce those, insure they are done.

suicide_circus

I think some IE staff would and do go above and beyond the literal text of their contracts, you're painting them all as complete tossers.

Hilly Bill

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

provide assistance to customers, make station announcements, keep the station in a tidy presentable manner, be presentable... etc

That should be the norm anyway and as for announcements, they are made from control

Hilly Bill

suicide_circus wrote: »

I think some IE staff would and do go above and beyond the literal text of their contracts, you're painting them all as complete tossers.

To be fair, there are a few tossers working there who shouldn't be working there but most will show a bit of common courtesy and sense when called for.

Working class heroes

Hilly Bill wrote: »

That should be the norm anyway and as for announcements, they are made from control

Not exclusively.

devnull

Working class heroes wrote: »

Not exclusively.

Indeed, there were many occasions where people were waiting on the platform for 15 minutes for a train that was just showing 7 minutes or something on the board for ages and people didn't know whether to stay or go since there was no information on if it was running or just delayed.

I once went up to the guy in the ticket office who said that it is not running and their will be no service for the next couple of hours, I asked him why he didn't make an announcement and he told me that it is "not his job" as he is only there to sell tickets.

GM228

Latest here.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0927/907815-rail-workers-deadline/




*Note to MODs, the title of this thread is misleading and needs to be amended, this pay claim is a general pay claim and not down to "driver demands".

Hilly Bill

Working class heroes wrote: »

Not exclusively.

Not exclusively, it depends on what you need to announce.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Indeed, there were many occasions where people were waiting on the platform for 15 minutes for a train that was just showing 7 minutes or something on the board for ages and people didn't know whether to stay or go since there was no information on if it was running or just delayed.

I once went up to the guy in the ticket office who said that it is not running and their will be no service for the next couple of hours, I asked him why he didn't make an announcement and he told me that it is "not his job" as he is only there to sell tickets.

The decent thing to do there would have been to go down and announce in person but I'd say he didn't want to be lynched on the platform.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The decent thing to do there would have been to go down and announce in person but I'd say he didn't want to be lynched on the platform.

Doesn't have to be announced in person just let people know, this happened many times, the whole line was closed and no trains were running on a number of occasions and the staff member just watches people walking through the gates to the platform for a train that isn't going to come on either side for a long while and people wait for ages.

I think generally the provision of info in Irish Rail is quite poor, but it's far worse outside the city center stations.

Working class heroes

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Not exclusively, it depends on what you need to announce.

:rolleyes:

Kiith

RTE/Siptu wrote:

He noted that staff in Luas and Dublin Bus had secured increases of around 3.75% per year and that Iarnród Éireann personnel needed to get at least that

Why should drivers be entitled to a pay increase simply because employees in another company got one? Does that mean Luas drivers will strike again next year, as IE drivers are getting more? Then DB drives strike again, cause Luas drivers are getting more. And then IE drivers...etc etc etc...

Just because someone in a completely different company gets a pay increase, does not mean that you are entitled to one :mad:

end of the road

Kiith wrote: »

Why should drivers be entitled to a pay increase simply because employees in another company got one? Does that mean Luas drivers will strike again next year, as IE drivers are getting more? Then DB drives strike again, cause Luas drivers are getting more. And then IE drivers...etc etc etc...

Just because someone in a completely different company gets a pay increase, does not mean that you are entitled to one

no but you are entitled to look for one. anyone is entitled to look for a raise. whether they get it or not is a different story but we are all entitled to ask.

Working class heroes

end of the road wrote: »

no but you are entitled to look for one. anyone is entitled to look for a raise. whether they get it or not is a different story but we are all entitled to ask.

So you work for IR then?

Stephen15

Kiith wrote: »

Why should drivers be entitled to a pay increase simply because employees in another company got one? Does that mean Luas drivers will strike again next year, as IE drivers are getting more? Then DB drives strike again, cause Luas drivers are getting more. And then IE drivers...etc etc etc...

Just because someone in a completely different company gets a pay increase, does not mean that you are entitled to one :mad:

Luas, IE and DB all had/have pay claims in. Its common misconception that DB only went on strike because the luas workers got an increase NOT TRUE. Luas and DB workers both had genuine pay claims in. Employees in other companies getting an increase is not a valid reason to give workers an increase and the unions know this.

DB would have went on strike even if the Luas never did because they had a pay claim in.

Idbatterim

Why should drivers be entitled to a pay increase simply because employees in another company got one? Does that mean Luas drivers will strike again next year, as IE drivers are getting more? Then DB drives strike again, cause Luas drivers are getting more. And then IE drivers...etc etc etc...

Just because someone in a completely different company gets a pay increase, does not mean that you are entitled to one

This is what I am interested in, why should IE which is losing money, be giving pay rises to staff that appear over paid as it is? Just because? Its never ending here, hopefully dublin metro is driverless for a start...

end of the road

Working class heroes wrote: »

So you work for IR then?

i don't. but that doesn't change the reality that in any job, you can ask for a raise.

Idbatterim wrote: »

This is what I am interested in, why should IE which is losing money, be giving pay rises to staff that appear over paid as it is?

Ask IE and it's staff, who don't appear over paid, because for the most part they aren't over paid. they aren't under-paid either. like any public service which loses money, staff still have to be attracted to either come, or to remain within those services.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Just because? Its never ending here, hopefully dublin metro is driverless for a start...

dublin metro being driverless won't make a difference to pay claims, as there will be staff in some form involved, and they will at some stage look for a pay rise, and likely go on strike for it.

tayto lover

It is every workers right to seek better pay and conditions.
I respect that right.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Doesn't have to be announced in person just let people know, this happened many times, the whole line was closed and no trains were running on a number of occasions and the staff member just watches people walking through the gates to the platform for a train that isn't going to come on either side for a long while and people wait for ages.

I think generally the provision of info in Irish Rail is quite poor, but it's far worse outside the city center stations.

The provision of info is no better internally either.
You would nearly be better off passing info face to face as a lot wouldn't either understand or hear the announcement.

Hilly Bill

Kiith wrote: »

Why should drivers be entitled to a pay increase simply because employees in another company got one? Does that mean Luas drivers will strike again next year, as IE drivers are getting more? Then DB drives strike again, cause Luas drivers are getting more. And then IE drivers...etc etc etc...

Just because someone in a completely different company gets a pay increase, does not mean that you are entitled to one :mad:

A pay rise was agreed several years ago and the signalmen got it, the rest are still waiting.

Hilly Bill

Idbatterim wrote: »

This is what I am interested in, why should IE which is losing money, be giving pay rises to staff that appear over paid as it is? Just because? Its never ending here, hopefully dublin metro is driverless for a start...

Would you class taking home 470 a week overpaid?

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The provision of info is no better internally either.
You would nearly be better off passing info face to face as a lot wouldn't either understand or hear the announcement.

You say that but on a regular basis the guy in the station said he knew of the info but it was 'not my job' to announce it.

murphthesmurf

It is obvious this would happen. They should never have given the tram drivers a pay rise. Massively over paid for a job you could train a chimpanzee to do. It's on rails ffs, you don't even have to steer it. Then the bus drivers all think 'my job is far more difficult than theirs as I have to steer my vehicle and get safely through traffic etc'. Now the trwin drivers think 'hell those boys are all getting more money I'm driving a 100 tonne train with 200 people on, I should be on way more'.
Let them strike, and let the company go bankrupt and start again from scratch.

murphthesmurf

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Would you class taking home 470 a week overpaid?

What? Train drivers are on 60k a year easily. Thats one of the reasons the tram drivers wanted more.

Working class heroes

end of the road wrote: »

i don't. but that doesn't change the reality that in any job, you can ask for a raise.



Ask IE and it's staff, who don't appear over paid, because for the most part they aren't over paid. they aren't under-paid either. like any public service which loses money, staff still have to be attracted to either come, or to remain within those services.



dublin metro being driverless won't make a difference to pay claims, as there will be staff in some form involved, and they will at some stage look for a pay rise, and likely go on strike for it.

I just asked the staff. They have confirmed they are overpaid.

end of the road

murphthesmurf wrote: »

It is obvious this would happen.

yes, because they had a claim in for a long time.

murphthesmurf wrote: »

They should never have given the tram drivers a pay rise.

why not.

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Massively over paid for a job you could train a chimpanzee to do.

wrong, not Massively over paid for a job you couldn't train a chimpanzee to do. correctly paid for a very very responsible job, for which the market requires such a wage.

murphthesmurf wrote: »

It's on rails ffs, you don't even have to steer it.

irrelevant. it's still a very responsible job and will command a high wage.

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Then the bus drivers all think 'my job is far more difficult than theirs as I have to steer my vehicle and get safely through traffic etc'.

it is a responsible job yes. however the pay claims are nothing to do with each other.

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Now the trwin drivers think 'hell those boys are all getting more money I'm driving a 100 tonne train with 200 people on, I should be on way more'.

no they don't. none of the companies pay claims are related.

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Let them strike, and let the company go bankrupt and start again from scratch.

pointless as it would cause quite a lot of up-evil which would last a long long time, for strikes to still happen. waste of time money and all else for a 1 day strike.

murphthesmurf wrote: »

What? Train drivers are on 60k a year easily. Thats one of the reasons the tram drivers wanted more.

only the ones at the very top of the scale are on that wage, and i have no doubt overtime is a part of that. the rest are on a lot less.

Infini

murphthesmurf wrote: »

What? Train drivers are on 60k a year easily. Thats one of the reasons the tram drivers wanted more.

Only way they can be on that is with overtime. Standard Contract is no more than €55000 last time I checked and that is at the top of the 10y scale too.

Infini

tayto lover wrote: »

It is every workers right to seek better pay and conditions.
I respect that right.

Problem is there's people who dont like this fact simply because it inconveniences them or theyre jealous of the pay too. Wether people like it or not thats a constitutional right. Noone exactly likes going out on strike either but sometimes it has to be done because otherwise noone will take anyone seriously or they stonewall.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

dublin metro being driverless won't make a difference to pay claims, as there will be staff in some form involved, and they will at some stage look for a pay rise, and likely go on strike for it.

I think it would make a massive difference. You would be talking about just a few control staff, rather then lots of drivers.

Admin/control staff generally seem to have a much more positive relationship with management then drivers typically do. They have pay claims of course, but you far less often see them go out on strike.

Plus it would be much easier to operate 24/7

bk

Infini wrote: »

Problem is there's people who dont like this fact simply because it inconveniences them or theyre jealous of the pay too. Wether people like it or not thats a constitutional right. Noone exactly likes going out on strike either but sometimes it has to be done because otherwise noone will take anyone seriously or they stonewall.

Lots of industries have employee councils, that negotiate excellent pay, without strikes being the first port of call. Frankly their seems to be far too much politicalism and militarism around public transport unions, rather then working with the management.

Hilly Bill

murphthesmurf wrote: »

What? Train drivers are on 60k a year easily. Thats one of the reasons the tram drivers wanted more.

Drivers are just one section of the company.

Jamie2k9

Infini wrote: »

Problem is there's people who dont like this fact simply because it inconveniences them or theyre jealous of the pay too. Wether people like it or not thats a constitutional right. Noone exactly likes going out on strike either but sometimes it has to be done because otherwise noone will take anyone seriously or they stonewall.

It's gotten to the stage now it's like a hobby for many :P

Jamie2k9

tayto lover wrote: »

It is every workers right to seek better pay and conditions.
I respect that right.

and employers right to seek increased productivity in return for the cost.

end of the road

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

and employers right to seek increased productivity in return for the cost.

sure, nobody said otherwise. however productivity can only go so far.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

sure, nobody said otherwise. however productivity can only go so far.

Well unions have offered nothing so far and have said they won't....

Working class heroes

end of the road wrote: »

sure, nobody said otherwise. however productivity can only go so far.

A bit like money.

devnull

bk wrote: »

Lots of industries have employee councils, that negotiate excellent pay, without strikes being the first port of call. Frankly their seems to be far too much politicalism and militarism around public transport unions, rather then working with the management.

Some of them though have no idea how to negotiate, I was in a company where there was a collective redundancy situation and we had a vote on who would be our reps with the management to negotiate terms among about 60 employees who were losing their job, I was one of the (few) to be kept on (and ended up worse off than if I had been the rep, in the end but that's another story)

The two people who were voted already had agreed other jobs elsewhere so were crap negotiators because they had something else lined up. They ended up getting little more than statutory redundancy and were elected based on being friends of a lot of people rather than their negotiation skills.

The company had budgeted for up to statutory + a golden handshake of another 6 weeks pay I found out a few hours before the rep vote from a document left on the printer that I saw accidentally but obviously I couldn't tell anyone as I was one of few people with access to the HR printer and it'd be obvious who it came from.

End result is the staff got staturoy + a week when they could have got another 5 weeks if they dug their heels in hard enough as it was fully costed. I've since been on the end of being the person negoiating settlements on a companies behalf and I tell you, the vast number of people on councils haven't got a clue and can't negotiate to save their life whereas on the other hand the unions push it to the other extreme as we are seeing with IR.

GM228

Talks have broken down, ballot for strike is to proceed with.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

Talks have broken down, ballot for strike is to proceed with.

Well this is a total shocker :rolleyes:

murphthesmurf

end of the road wrote: »

yes, because they had a claim in for a long time.



why not.



wrong, not Massively over paid for a job you couldn't train a chimpanzee to do. correctly paid for a very very responsible job, for which the market requires such a wage.



irrelevant. it's still a very responsible job and will command a high wage.



it is a responsible job yes. however the pay claims are nothing to do with each other.



no they don't. none of the companies pay claims are related.



pointless as it would cause quite a lot of up-evil which would last a long long time, for strikes to still happen. waste of time money and all else for a 1 day strike.




only the ones at the very top of the scale are on that wage, and i have no doubt overtime is a part of that. the rest are on a lot less.

Do you think train drivers, tram drivers, and bus drivers don't watch the news and read the papers? Of course they do, and they see what the workers in similar roles are getting. A train driver watching the news and sees that the tram drivers have gotten a rise to be on the same as him is obviously going to start thinking he should be on more. If I found out someone doing a similar job to me got a raise I'm going to think I should too. It's common sense. They were probably planning pay rises anyhow but obviously everyone else in the transport industry getting a raise is going to influence them.
It's an easy skill less job, yes there are a lot of people on board. But your main challenge is staying awake. Bus Eireann drivers have a far more difficult job, and have the responsibility of the safety of everyone on board the bus and everyone else on the road. They have to negotiate cyclists, pedestrians, cars, lorrys etc. Tram drivers have a very easy job, but have to look for pedestrians and some other traffic. Train drivers not so much, but more people on board.
The market does not require the wage, if they leave where are they going to go? There is only one train company in Ireland, it's not like there is a shortage like there is for pilots. Unlike pilots who pay thousands for long intense training, you could learn to drive a tram or train in 10-15 minutes. If I got into a tram tomorrow having never been in one I could drive it without being shown anything.
It is unskilled work that countless people would do for less than the people currently employed. Government should bite the bullet and say enough is enough. Let it go bankrupt , close it down, start a fresh private company and everyone has to re-apply for their jobs.

end of the road

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Do you think train drivers, tram drivers, and bus drivers don't watch the news and read the papers? Of course they do, and they see what the workers in similar roles are getting. A train driver watching the news and sees that the tram drivers have gotten a rise to be on the same as him is obviously going to start thinking he should be on more. If I found out someone doing a similar job to me got a raise I'm going to think I should too. It's common sense. They were probably planning pay rises anyhow but obviously everyone else in the transport industry getting a raise is going to influence them.
It's an easy skill less job, yes there are a lot of people on board. But your main challenge is staying awake. Bus Eireann drivers have a far more difficult job, and have the responsibility of the safety of everyone on board the bus and everyone else on the road. They have to negotiate cyclists, pedestrians, cars, lorrys etc. Tram drivers have a very easy job, but have to look for pedestrians and some other traffic. Train drivers not so much, but more people on board.
The market does not require the wage, if they leave where are they going to go? There is only one train company in Ireland, it's not like there is a shortage like there is for pilots. Unlike pilots who pay thousands for long intense training, you could learn to drive a tram or train in 10-15 minutes. If I got into a tram tomorrow having never been in one I could drive it without being shown anything.
It is unskilled work that countless people would do for less than the people currently employed. Government should bite the bullet and say enough is enough. Let it go bankrupt , close it down, start a fresh private company and everyone has to re-apply for their jobs.

it's not an easy skil-less job, it's a good responsible job that only some will ever get to do. the job of a bus driver is hard, but a train driver will have a lot more at stake if they get it wrong. a bus driver will have a lot at stake as well, but they have a better chance of avoiding an accident then a train driver. the market does require the wage, other countries are paying their drivers similar or even more. there are 2 train companies in ireland, irish rail in the south and northern ireland railways in the north. while a train driver in ireland will have to learn the aspects of the uk system if they were to go to northern ireland or the uk for example, it is possible for them to do so. there are plenty of countries they can go to earn more money at train driving. you could not learn to drive a tram or train in 15 minutes. if you got into a train having never been in one, you couldn't drive it without being shown anything. you will have to be shown everything right down to a t, and those who think they know it all usually don't get far apparently.
it is skilled work that countless people wouldn't do for less then the people currently employed, they will only do it for the same wage once they realise what the job actually involves. a responsible job requires a responsible wage and such wages are the best way to attract people to such a responsible job, where 1 mistake can be your last. it would not be cost effective and would be hugely disruptive for no gain, for Government to "bite the bullet" and say enough is enough with the odd 1 day strike, to Let it go bankrupt , close it down, start a fresh with a private company who will expect to be paid hansamly to operate rail services in a very small country which would be quite risky for them, and where strikes will still happen, and to then have everyone re-apply for their jobs which would take up way too much time. all for the avoidence of the odd 1 day strike every couple of years, which will continue. your ideas are not cost effective or worth the bother for me as a frequent rail user.

Hollister11

MOD EDIT, no name calling

There really messing up people's lives by striking. No one's entitled to a pay increase.

Do you job, if your not happy then leave. There's plenty of people who would do the job for less than what the Drivers are paid now.

rebel456

You know, I sometimes wonder if these militant union leaders actually want to purposely harm their members. Essentially demanding a no strings attached yearly pay increase, nothing in return. Employment in a protected state industry does not entitle anyone to such level of abuse of the public purse. I feel sorry for the newly joined IR staff who'll now have to man picket lines so their long established colleagues can demand a pay top-up.

Not the mention the travelling public who demand on IR. Can only guess how many will make the switch to the private bus operators now.

Rail strike looms as talks between unions and management break down
NBRU and Siptu to ballot immediately for strike action over pay


In a statement the NBRU said its members were furious at Irish Rail’s refusal to offer a meaningful no strings attached pay rise to staff after a decade long pay freeze.
It’s general secretary Dermot O’Leary said: “After a decade long pay hiatus, the expectation of a long overdue pay rise for Irish Rail staff has not materialised. Our members have looked at colleagues in the public transport sector enjoying pay increases of up to 3.75 per cent, while Irish Rail is thumbing its nose at its own staff by making a pitiful offer, at a time when passenger numbers and revenue at Irish Rail are at a historical high.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/rail-strike-looms-as-talks-between-unions-and-management-break-down-1.3235510

end of the road

Hollister11 wrote: »

There really messing up people's lives by striking. No one's entitled to a pay increase.

Do you job, if your not happy then leave. There's plenty of people who would do the job for less than what the Drivers are paid now.

They are entitled to look for a raise and to strike whether people agree with them or not. if someone isn't happy with their job, improve the job before you decide to leave, as if you can make it better, you can stay in the job and be happy, and in turn possibly make it better for all else. there is not plenty of people who would do the job for less then what the drivers are paid now.

SEPT 23 1989

Imagine asking for a pay increase when the company you work for is drowning in debt

La la land

murphthesmurf

end of the road wrote: »

it's not an easy skil-less job, it's a good responsible job that only some will ever get to do. the job of a bus driver is hard, but a train driver will have a lot more at stake if they get it wrong. a bus driver will have a lot at stake as well, but they have a better chance of avoiding an accident then a train driver. the market does require the wage, other countries are paying their drivers similar or even more. there are 2 train companies in ireland, irish rail in the south and northern ireland railways in the north. while a train driver in ireland will have to learn the aspects of the uk system if they were to go to northern ireland or the uk for example, it is possible for them to do so. there are plenty of countries they can go to earn more money at train driving. you could not learn to drive a tram or train in 15 minutes. if you got into a train having never been in one, you couldn't drive it without being shown anything. you will have to be shown everything right down to a t, and those who think they know it all usually don't get far apparently.
it is skilled work that countless people wouldn't do for less then the people currently employed, they will only do it for the same wage once they realise what the job actually involves. a responsible job requires a responsible wage and such wages are the best way to attract people to such a responsible job, where 1 mistake can be your last. it would not be cost effective and would be hugely disruptive for no gain, for Government to "bite the bullet" and say enough is enough with the odd 1 day strike, to Let it go bankrupt , close it down, start a fresh with a private company who will expect to be paid hansamly to operate rail services in a very small country which would be quite risky for them, and where strikes will still happen, and to then have everyone re-apply for their jobs which would take up way too much time. all for the avoidence of the odd 1 day strike every couple of years, which will continue. your ideas are not cost effective or worth the bother for me as a frequent rail user.

If they stuck an add in a national newspaper for a train driver doing around 40 hours a week for 40k they would be inundated with applications. 40k is too much even.
Of course it is harder to avoid an accident in a train as it takes so lkng to stop, no amount of pay or training will make it stop quicker. All the train driver can do is apply the brakes, a bus eireann driver would have to apply the breaks, control any skidding, try and steer around the threat, try not to go down embankments or roll the coach.
I have a car licence, motorcycle licence, LGV up to 33 tonne (in UK), have previously held JCB licence and various fork lift licences. All of these would have been far more difficult than driving a vehicle which only goes forwards and backwards on a set of rails. It really is an easy job, don't believe what you hear by the union guys.
If they want to try and get a job in UK, let them go. They'll be competing with the hundreds of others who apply. I lived in UK and applied once years back, you've notma hope as they get so many applications. It's an honest job, but it's not rocket science.

Jamie2k9

However, leaving the talks, SIPTU Divisional Organiser Greg Ennis said that management had offered what he called a "derisory" a pay rise of just 1.5%.

He said even that was conditional on unions accepting outsourcing, forced redeployment, an increment freeze, line closures, and a reduction in contracted hours.

He said workers would in effect be expected to fund their own pay rises, which was unacceptable.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0927/907815-rail-workers-deadline/

Also more pleading from the Dermot for Shane Ross to come to the rescue.....

Del.Monte

Shane Ross is very quiet these days - probably planning a run for the Aras. :rolleyes:

Hilly Bill

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Imagine asking for a pay increase when the company you work for is drowning in debt

La la land

They seem to have money when it suits them.

Hilly Bill

murphthesmurf wrote: »

If they stuck an add in a national newspaper for a train driver doing around 40 hours a week for 40k they would be inundated with applications. 40k is too much even.
Of course it is harder to avoid an accident in a train as it takes so lkng to stop, no amount of pay or training will make it stop quicker. All the train driver can do is apply the brakes, a bus eireann driver would have to apply the breaks, control any skidding, try and steer around the threat, try not to go down embankments or roll the coach.
I have a car licence, motorcycle licence, LGV up to 33 tonne (in UK), have previously held JCB licence and various fork lift licences. All of these would have been far more difficult than driving a vehicle which only goes forwards and backwards on a set of rails. It really is an easy job, don't believe what you hear by the union guys.
If they want to try and get a job in UK, let them go. They'll be competing with the hundreds of others who apply. I lived in UK and applied once years back, you've notma hope as they get so many applications. It's an honest job, but it's not rocket science.

They put an ad on their website and the applications wasn't exactly flying in. It's not a job for everyone. I could move a train if needed and if it's already to go but i wouldn't have the concentration levels that's needed to drive it to say Cork and back. 40 k wouldn't be enough for the trauma when someone throws themselves in front of you it's horrendous once never mind 4 or 5 times.