Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

Weepsie

end of the road wrote: »

not scumbags. they are entitled to look for a raise and to strike whether people agree with them or not. if someone isn't happy with their job, improve the job before you decide to leave, as if you can make it better, you can stay in the job and be happy, and in turn possibly make it better for all else. there is not plenty of people who would do the job for less then what the drivers are paid now.

When I'm not happy with my job, I upskill, I make myself even more valuable and in doing so earn that potential raise.

The Irish transport unions just constantly demand more money for nothing. Just staying in a job and being loyal is not a good enough reason for a never ending cycle of pay rises. There comes a point when the pay more than adequately matches the work and service. Benefits such as flexible leave etc can be added but the constant money grabbing is tiresome for everyone

Zebra3

If the government is gonna continue to allow rents to increase by about 12% per annum, these are the problems at are gonna be faced across the economy.

end of the road

murphthesmurf wrote: »

If they stuck an add in a national newspaper for a train driver doing around 40 hours a week for 40k they would be inundated with applications. 40k is too much even.
Of course it is harder to avoid an accident in a train as it takes so lkng to stop, no amount of pay or training will make it stop quicker. All the train driver can do is apply the brakes, a bus eireann driver would have to apply the breaks, control any skidding, try and steer around the threat, try not to go down embankments or roll the coach.
I have a car licence, motorcycle licence, LGV up to 33 tonne (in UK), have previously held JCB licence and various fork lift licences. All of these would have been far more difficult than driving a vehicle which only goes forwards and backwards on a set of rails. It really is an easy job, don't believe what you hear by the union guys.
If they want to try and get a job in UK, let them go. They'll be competing with the hundreds of others who apply. I lived in UK and applied once years back, you've notma hope as they get so many applications. It's an honest job, but it's not rocket science.

40k is not to much at all, it's quite low for a full wage, but is around the starting wage currently. however, that will have to rise as drivers go on, to around the over 50 to 60k mark, to retain experienced drivers here. it's not an easy job, i will believe what i hear from those who actually do the job over those who don't. not let them go, retain them here and keep the good expertese. doesn't matter whether it's rocket science or not, the facts are it's a responsible job and only so many will actually be capible of doing it, hence the high standards of training and all else.

Del.Monte wrote: »

Shane Ross is very quiet these days - probably planning a run for the Aras.

oh god. the thoughts of him being president. we'd be an absolute joke internationally.

end of the road

Weepsie wrote: »

When I'm not happy with my job, I upskill, I make myself even more valuable and in doing so earn that potential raise.

and? others decide they want to stay in the job and make the job better. their decisian is just as valid as yours.

Weepsie wrote: »

The Irish transport unions just constantly demand more money for nothing.

they are entitled to demand. they aren't entitled to get but like anyone in any job they can only ask. there is no such thing as money for nothing. the staff will be giving something in return.

Weepsie wrote: »

Just staying in a job and being loyal is not a good enough reason for a never ending cycle of pay rises.

nobody said otherwise.

Weepsie wrote: »

There comes a point when the pay more than adequately matches the work and service.

yes, retirement.

Weepsie wrote: »

Benefits such as flexible leave etc can be added but the constant money grabbing is tiresome for everyone

so be it. if "everybody" chooses not to ask for a raise and others do then that is just how it is

john boye

end of the road wrote: »

and? others decide they want to stay in the job and make the job better. their decisian is just as valid as yours.

But they're not trying to make the job better, they just want more money. Whilst the company is already swimming in debt. How's that going to make the job better?

murphthesmurf

end of the road wrote: »

retain them here and keep the good expertese. doesn't matter whether it's rocket science or not, the facts are it's a responsible job and only so many will actually be capible of doing it, hence the high standards of training and all else.

What do you think driving a train actually entails? You don't need a superpower. Only so many can do it, only people with 2 eyes and preferably 2 arms who don't suffer from sleep apnea. You do not need A levels. You push the lever forward and the train goes forward, you pull the lever back the train slows down. The parts that need practice is judging how soon to start slowing down for a station to be smooth and not break too harshly. 40k is too much, this responsibility argument doesn't stack up. Gards have responsibility they earn less. Nurses have responsibility they earn less. Lorry drivers have responsibility they earn less. I work in fire safety and only the most senior engineers earn over 40k and we have a lot of responsibility.
It is less skilled than a bus driver, there is far less to do and be aware of.
The public sector in this country like most others lives in a bubble where the rest of the world revolves around this bubble. They are always entitled to this and that. It is us tax payers that fund these self entitled jobs worths with never ending pay rises. We will pay for this through extra government grants and your train ticket price will go up. It is already insanely expensive to use.

end of the road

murphthesmurf wrote: »

What do you think driving a train actually entails? You don't need a superpower. Only so many can do it, only people with 2 eyes and preferably 2 arms who don't suffer from sleep apnea. You do not need A levels. You push the lever forward and the train goes forward, you pull the lever back the train slows down. The parts that need practice is judging how soon to start slowing down for a station to be smooth and not break too harshly. 40k is too much, this responsibility argument doesn't stack up. Gards have responsibility they earn less. Nurses have responsibility they earn less. Lorry drivers have responsibility they earn less. I work in fire safety and only the most senior engineers earn over 40k and we have a lot of responsibility.
It is less skilled than a bus driver, there is far less to do and be aware of.
The public sector in this country like most others lives in a bubble where the rest of the world revolves around this bubble. They are always entitled to this and that. It is us tax payers that fund these self entitled jobs worths with never ending pay rises. We will pay for this through extra government grants and your train ticket price will go up. It is already insanely expensive to use.

wrong, there is a lot more to the job then pull the lever and the train goes forward, or pull the lever back and the train slows down. i even know that, dispite never being in a train cab. because those who actually know the job, will tell you such, if you ask nicely. 40k is not to much given the responsible nature of the job, the market for train driving which is a world market, requires good money to insure attractiveness to the job, and to insure a good retention rate. the responsibility argument is valid and fully stacks up. other jobs earning less isn't relevant, different industries will have different rates of pay. train driving is not less skilled then a bus driver, there is not less to do and be aware of over all.

Jamie2k9

murphthesmurf wrote: »

What do you think driving a train actually entails? You don't need a superpower. Only so many can do it, only people with 2 eyes and preferably 2 arms who don't suffer from sleep apnea. You do not need A levels. You push the lever forward and the train goes forward, you pull the lever back the train slows down. The parts that need practice is judging how soon to start slowing down for a station to be smooth and not break too harshly. 40k is too much, this responsibility argument doesn't stack up. Gards have responsibility they earn less. Nurses have responsibility they earn less. Lorry drivers have responsibility they earn less. I work in fire safety and only the most senior engineers earn over 40k and we have a lot of responsibility.
It is less skilled than a bus driver, there is far less to do and be aware of.
The public sector in this country like most others lives in a bubble where the rest of the world revolves around this bubble. They are always entitled to this and that. It is us tax payers that fund these self entitled jobs worths with never ending pay rises. We will pay for this through extra government grants and your train ticket price will go up. It is already insanely expensive to use.

To be fair driving a train is a little more complicated than a tram. If anything stopping at stations is the easy part, they do have a lot of responsibility but overall Irish Rail train drivers have decent pay for what they do.

Clearly most wouldn't agree......

marno21

end of the road wrote: »

40k is not to much at all, it's quite low for a full wage, but is around the starting wage currently. however, that will have to rise as drivers go on, to around the over 50 to 60k mark, to retain experienced drivers here. it's not an easy job, i will believe what i hear from those who actually do the job over those who don't. not let them go, retain them here and keep the good expertese. doesn't matter whether it's rocket science or not, the facts are it's a responsible job and only so many will actually be capible of doing it, hence the high standards of training and all else.



oh god. the thoughts of him being president. we'd be an absolute joke internationally.

I wouldn't mind him running for President if it meant him getting ****ed out of the Department of Transport.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They seem to have money when it suits them.

I'm sure you were not expecting much more than 1.5% which was offered?

It also means drivers get 2.65% increase, they come away nicely out of it. It hard to see how on earth they could reject such a rise.

suicide_circus

Del.Monte wrote: »

Shane Ross is very quiet these days - probably planning a run for the Aras. :rolleyes:

Staying quiet worked perfectly last time.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I'm sure you were not expecting much more than 1.5% which was offered?

It also means drivers get 2.65% increase, they come away nicely out of it. It hard to see how on earth they could reject such a rise.

It's not just the drivers, it's all staff.

kingshankly

IR train drivers hourly rate is less than all the major uk companies

LXFlyer

murphthesmurf wrote: »

What do you think driving a train actually entails? You don't need a superpower. Only so many can do it, only people with 2 eyes and preferably 2 arms who don't suffer from sleep apnea. You do not need A levels. You push the lever forward and the train goes forward, you pull the lever back the train slows down. The parts that need practice is judging how soon to start slowing down for a station to be smooth and not break too harshly. 40k is too much, this responsibility argument doesn't stack up. Gards have responsibility they earn less. Nurses have responsibility they earn less. Lorry drivers have responsibility they earn less. I work in fire safety and only the most senior engineers earn over 40k and we have a lot of responsibility.
It is less skilled than a bus driver, there is far less to do and be aware of.
The public sector in this country like most others lives in a bubble where the rest of the world revolves around this bubble. They are always entitled to this and that. It is us tax payers that fund these self entitled jobs worths with never ending pay rises. We will pay for this through extra government grants and your train ticket price will go up. It is already insanely expensive to use.

Ok so knowing exactly where to start braking an Intercity train for a station stop that is potentially travelling at 100mph in pitch black darkness isn't skilled?

Similarly being able to get a locomotive to engage on slippery rails during leaf fall season while taking a liner train from a standing start isn't skilled either clearly?

Train drivers have to have "route knowledge" of every route they drive - in other words they need to know every inch of the infrastructure.

You do realise that it takes 18 months to train a driver before they can take a train out on their own?

Whatever about the why's and wherefores of the pay claim, suggesting that the job is just "pulling levers" is frankly insulting. It is a skilled job.

pjohnson

I love how the NBRU response to everything is MOAR MONIES. Do they have any understanding of business or revenue? They seem to think money can just appear from nothing?

Creative83

pjohnson wrote: »

I love how the NBRU response to everything is MOAR MONIES. Do they have any understanding of business or revenue? They seem to think money can just appear from nothing?

More money from a company going insolvent... you couldn't make it up. When they wind up on the dole queues they will have only themselves to blame

pjohnson

mini_Sapphire wrote: »

More money from a company going insolvent... you couldn't make it up. When they wind up on the dole queues they will have only themselves to blame

Its the same "logic" they used for this years BE strike.

Infini

john boye wrote: »

But they're not trying to make the job better, they just want more money. Whilst the company is already swimming in debt. How's that going to make the job better?

Lets put one thing in perspective here: The whole debt thing is a manipulation. They just have not funded the rail properly for years. There is ZERO point in even the government trying this excuse as you can't have a situation where a semi-state that is in charge of staff, stock and infrastructure is constantly in debt. They just don't put enough enough money in to meet the costs it's what the subvention and free travel scheme is SUPPOSED to do but every excuse is made to pay as little as possible.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I'm sure you were not expecting much more than 1.5% which was offered?

It also means drivers get 2.65% increase, they come away nicely out of it. It hard to see how on earth they could reject such a rise.

It's a deception. They were "offering" 1.5 BUT they were tying it into reduced hour's and forced redeployment etc. It's really a pay cut from the sounds of things so of course they wouldn't accept that.

bk wrote: »

Lots of industries have employee councils, that negotiate excellent pay, without strikes being the first port of call. Frankly their seems to be far too much politicalism and militarism around public transport unions, rather then working with the management.

I would note that management themselves have been rather petty and ridiculous themselves in the past and caused stupid arguments and needless aggro by going round in an intimidating sense. Frank's is just as ridiculous he's stirred up the pot needlessly over stupid things that just wasn't necessary.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

To be fair driving a train is a little more complicated than a tram. If anything stopping at stations is the easy part, they do have a lot of responsibility but overall Irish Rail train drivers have decent pay for what they do.

Clearly most wouldn't agree......

To be honest the way I see thing's people dont agree unless they're paid better than em. It's also blatent ignorance on their part as some driver's have left the driving simply because they found the demand not worth the pay as well.

devnull

Infini wrote: »

They just have not funded the rail properly for years. There is ZERO point in even the government trying this excuse as you can't have a situation where a semi-state that is in charge of staff, stock and infrastructure is constantly in debt. They just don't put enough enough money in to meet the costs it's what the subvention and free travel scheme is SUPPOSED to do but every excuse is made to pay as little as possible.

The staff are asking for a pay rise which the company cannot afford and the company have offered what it can afford in exchange for some productivity increases with that in mind.

The company has not said that it wil go to the wall or may become insolvent soon because it has been underfunded, it is saying that it will go this way if they give the unions what they are asking for as they cannot afford it.

The argument about the railway being underfunded would work a lot better if it wasn't being trotted out at the time people are looking for a rise, saying so now is just a pure smokescreen covering the desire for extra money to be spent on wages and nothing else.

Jamie2k9

kingshankly wrote: »

IR train drivers hourly rate is less than all the major uk companies

We have had stats and it varies. Remember these private UK companies are making hundreds of millions in profits.

It's not just the drivers, it's all staff.

Completely get that but back in July or August I said I couldn't see more than 1.6% been offered.

It's a deception. They were "offering" 1.5 BUT they were tying it into reduced hour's and forced redeployment etc. It's really a pay cut from the sounds of things so of course they wouldn't accept that.

For non drivers the forced redeployment is "I don't want to work" where they might have to interact with customers on trains.

I think if it was a pay cut unions would of been quick to point that out.

Infini

devnull wrote: »

The staff are asking for a pay rise which the company cannot afford and the company have offered what it can afford in exchange for some productivity increases with that in mind.

The problem though is its always the devil in the detail. If they offer a 1.5% pay rise but then sneak in a reduction in hours it's basically a pay cut and a reduction in terms. Noone would agree to that in any company.

devnull wrote: »

The company has not said that it wil go to the wall or may become insolvent soon because it has been underfunded, it is saying that it will go this way if they give the unions what they are asking for as they cannot afford it.

The problem though is that they're saying they cant afford it but at the same time staff levels are far reduced but can spend money on fishing competitions and trips to France when it suits them. At the very least something is well off.

devnull wrote: »

The argument about the railway being underfunded would work a lot better if it wasn't being trotted out at the time people are looking for a rise, saying so now is just a pure smokescreen covering the desire for extra money to be spent on wages and nothing else.

The problem though is that this issue was building up for a good long time now and I think its been going on for at least a year or 2. If there's a vote for strike I dont believe it will be about the money but rather the forced redeployments and reduced pay and conditions that the companys trying to sneak in.

devnull

Infini wrote: »

The problem though is its always the devil in the detail. If they offer a 1.5% pay rise but then sneak in a reduction in hours it's basically a pay cut and a reduction in terms. Noone would agree to that in any company.

Sometimes companies have to do unpopular things that people will not like in order to get the company back on an even keel, you can't moan that the company is drowning in debt on one hand and then when they try and do something to deal with that moan that you will lose out in pay.

It's not the unions job to run the company and make operational decisions, the irony in Irish Rail is a large number of front line staff continually trot out the fact that it's not their job to help customers, make announcements, give travel advice, protect their revenue etc, but still feel it is their job to dictate how the company should be run despite the fact that is certainly not their job.

The problem though is that they're saying they cant afford it but at the same time staff levels are far reduced but can spend money on fishing competitions and trips to France when it suits them. At the very least something is well off.

Not really, the cost of those trips would probably be only a few thousand which is practically nothing in increased costs compared to the cost of giving all those staff a pay rise,

- Irish Rail has approx 3,500 staff
- The average wage is approx €60k
- Staff are looking for a rise of 3.5%
- 3.5% of €60k = €2,100
- €2.100 x 3,500 = €7.35m

Edit: See later, post, using slightly outdated figures on this one.

Hilly Bill

mini_Sapphire wrote: »

More money from a company going insolvent... you couldn't make it up. When they wind up on the dole queues they will have only themselves to blame

It's not going to happen.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

We have had stats and it varies. Remember these private UK companies are making hundreds of millions in profits.

They're making nowhere near that on rail franchises, the profit margin is very very thin despite what some parts of the media and the political spectrum are pointing out, it's about 2-3%, sometimes lower sometimes a little higher.

For non drivers the forced redeployment is "I don't want to work" where they might have to interact with customers on trains.

Exactly and at the moment the customer interaction and the staff attitude to customers with some exception on Irish Rail is perhaps the worst I've seen in many countries, many of them are disinterested, some of them are good but there is not enough of them.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Sometimes companies have to do unpopular things that people will not like in order to get the company back on an even keel, you can't moan that the company is drowning in debt on one hand and then when they try and do something to deal with that moan that you will lose out in pay.

It's not the unions job to run the company and make operational decisions, the irony in Irish Rail is a large number of front line staff continually trot out the fact that it's not their job to help customers, make announcements, give travel advice, protect their revenue etc, but still feel it is their job to dictate how the company should be run despite the fact that is certainly not their job.



Not really, the cost of those trips would probably be only a few thousand which is practically nothing in increased costs compared to the cost of giving all those staff a pay rise,

- Irish Rail has approx 3,500 staff
- The average wage is approx €60k
- Staff are looking for a rise of 3.5%
- 3.5% of €60k = €2,100
- €2.100 x 3,500 = €7.35m

Average wage is not even close to 60 grand. Most would be under 40 k.
You have an issue with the person at your local station but it's somehow manifested to a large number. I understand the need to add a bit of gravy to a story but there is no need to go all out bisto on it.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

They're making nowhere near that on rail franchises, the profit margin is very very thin despite what some parts of the media and the political spectrum are pointing out, it's about 2-3%, sometimes lower sometimes a little higher.



Exactly and at the moment the customer interaction and the staff attitude to customers with some exception on Irish Rail is perhaps the worst I've seen in many countries, many of them are disinterested, some of them are good but there is not enough of them.

It could be down to the fact that staff moral is at an all time low.

Ultimate Seduction

Not happy with your pay, get a job elsewhere. Go work in the UK if the money's so much better. Unions have there purpose, but they should not be allowed get away with this.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Average wage is not even close to 60 grand. Most would be under 40 k.

Sorry, I was using out of date figures, I'm now got the 2016 ones from Irish Rail's filled accounts and annual report which I will use exact figures from.

- Irish Rail has 3,806 staff
- The average wage is €54,876
- Staff are looking for a rise of 3.5%
- 3.5% of €54,876k = €1,920.66
- €1,920.66 x 3,806 = €7.31m

You have an issue with the person at your local station but it's somehow manifested to a large number. I understand the need to add a bit of gravy to a story but there is no need to go all out bisto on it.

Actually it's about staff at several stations because I often am using 4-5 stations on a regular basis and the standard is pretty poor in all of them to be honest.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Average wage is not even close to 60 grand. Most would be under 40 k.
You have an issue with the person at your local station but it's somehow manifested to a large number. I understand the need to add a bit of gravy to a story but there is no need to go all out bisto on it.

Based on the most recent report (2015) IE had 3,796 staff, their total wage bill was €204,266,000.

That's an average of €53,810 per employee. Remember average does not necessarily represent the majority, but it is all we have to go on.

Based on the 2015 figures a 1.5% pay rise would cost around an extra €3.063M whilst a 3.5% pay rise would cost around an rxtra €7.1M per year.

Hilly Bill

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Not happy with your pay, get a job elsewhere. Go work in the UK if the money's so much better. Unions have there purpose, but they should not be allowed get away with this.

Get away with what? There was an agreement a few years years ago regarding pay which the new ceo refuses to acknowledge spouting the we can't pay rubbish yet able to find money to executives to new positions, fishing tournament and to hire 40 summer staff. Even when they owe you a once off payment they spout the same line. It's all a delaying tactic.

Infini

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Not happy with your pay, get a job elsewhere. Go work in the UK if the money's so much better. Unions have there purpose, but they should not be allowed get away with this.

Yeeeeeah considering the UK has shot themselves in the foot since last year I dont think anyone would consider that in the first place. But then again people do prefer to fight for their rights and such rather than roll over.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

Based on the most recent report (2015) IE had 3,796 staff, their total wage bill was €204,266,000.

That's an average of €53,810 per employee. Remember average does not necessarily represent the majority, but it is all we have to go on.

Based on the 2015 figures a 1.5% pay rise would cost around an extra €3.063M whilst a 3.5% pay rise would cost around an rxtra €7.1M per year.

Management would be the only ones near that as a basic.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

There was an agreement a few years years ago regarding pay which the new ceo refuses to acknowledge spouting the we can't pay rubbish yet able to find money to executives to new positions, fishing tournament and to hire 40 summer staff.

As already stated, fishing trips will cost very little in comparison to giving a 3.5% pay rise to everyone in the the company which will cost over £7m based on Irish Rail's audited accounts lodged with the Companies Registration Office and their annual report published on their own website

I'm not saying that they were right to do some of the actions that they did, I have nothing to comment on that, but simply saying that one can spent a few grand on a fishing trip etc means that they can afford to spend millions on pay rises is simply not credible because the company could pay for hundreds of those trips and still spend less money than they would spend by giving a 3.5% pay rise.,

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Management would be the only ones near that as a basic.

How many managers do you think there are in Irish Rail?

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Management would be the only ones near that as a basic.

Rubbish.

CTC Signalmen, drivers and many other grades are already above or near to that average for their basic, some grades are even near to that for year 1.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Average wage is not even close to 60 grand. Most would be under 40 k.

Even for example grade 4 (the lowest grade station operatives) are on €43k a year at year 10 (most are reaching year 10 now).

Marty Bird

This forced re-deployment what’s it all about ? Surely if a role no longer exists or is not needed you have to roll with it no ?

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

How many managers do you think there are in Irish Rail?

Too many.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Too many.

So since you say there are too many, give us a ballpark figure since you must have a rough idea to come to the conclusion that there are too many.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

Rubbish.

CTC Signalmen, drivers and many other grades are already above or near to that average for their basic, some grades are even near to that for year 1.





Even for example grade 4 (the lowest grade) station operatives are on €43k a year at year 10 (most are reaching year 10 now).

Think again.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Think again.

About which part? It's all correct.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

So since you say there are too many, give us a ballpark figure since you must have a rough idea to come to the conclusion that there are too many.

324 with 1 out sick.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

About which part? It's all correct.

Nowhere near it. Do you honestly think that the lowest grade is on over 800 a week?

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

324 with 1 out sick.

OK and how much do you reckon they are paid?

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Nowhere near it.

OK so provide the figures if mine are nowhere near it?

Hilly Bill wrote: »

324 with 1 out sick.

Managerial positions or managers, there's a big difference, IE have about 50 managers.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

OK and how much do you reckon they are paid?

Who?

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

OK so provide the figures if mine are nowhere near it?

Lowest would be between 38 and 40 k with no sliding scale

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

OK so provide the figures if mine are nowhere near it?





Managerial positions or managers, there's a big difference, IE have about 50 managers.

You can double that with executives.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Lowest would be between 38 and 40 k with no sliding scale

For which grade? Your being very vague!

Hilly Bill

The same one you think that they are getting over 40 k.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Nowhere near it. Do you honestly think that the lowest grade is on over 800 a week?

Personally I think the best thing to do in these situations is to get the figures from the horses mouth, such as a Freedom of Informaton request for the salary levels since that would be the very best source.

See the attached.