Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

You can double that with executives.

There is around 50 executives/managers within IE with in fairness many more managerial positions, managerial positions are not the same as managers or executives.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Lowest would be between 38 and 40 k with no sliding scale

Your talking rubbish, the grade 4 station operative has a 10 year scale starting at €33,391 for year 1 raising to €43,650 for year 10.

GM228

devnull wrote: »

Personally I think the best thing to do in these situations is to get the figures from the horses mouth, such as a Freedom of Informaton request for the salary levels since that would be the very best source.

See the attached.

More up to date.

And the figures I provided are confirmed:-

Grade Code|Description|Contract Hours|Min of Scale|Max of Scale
S34|CTC Signalpersons 39 - 48 Hr Arrangement|48|51596.29|58632.58
V48|Loco Driver 39/48 Hour Arrangement|48|43716.99|55238.59
S11|Station Operative Grade 4 39/48 Hour|48|33391.58|43650.22

Also confirms exactly 50 managers/executives as of December 2015.

I rest my case.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Personally I think the best thing to do in these situations is to get the figures from the horses mouth, such as a Freedom of Informaton request for the salary levels since that would be the very best source.

See the attached.

I think a payslip of an actual employee is more accurate.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

More up to date.

And the figures I provided are confirmed:-

Grade Code|Description|Contract Hours|Min of Scale|Max of Scale
S34|CTC Signalpersons 39 - 48 Hr Arrangemen|48|51596.29|58632.58
V48|Loco Driver 39/48 Hour Arrangement|48|43716.99|55238.59
S11|Station Operative Grade 4 39/48 Hour|48|33391.58|43650.22

Also confirms exactly 50 managers/executives as of December 2015.

I rest my case.

So Nowhere near the 60 grand average.

devnull

GM228 wrote: »

More up to date.

It's the same PDF I think, just with the whole request in it rather than just the salary pages.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

There is around 50 executives/managers within IE with in fairness many more managerial positions, managerial positions are not the same as managers or executives.





Your talking rubbish, the grade 4 station operative has a 10 year scale starting at €33,391 for year 1 raising to €43,650 for year 10.

Spilt my coffee laughing at that one 😂

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I think a payslip of an actual employee is more accurate.

Yeah, because one employees payslip of one grade is more indicative of how much the company pay than a list of all the hundreds of grades and the salary scales that are on offer for those grades.:rolleyes:

Or do you really think that the company are dishonestly filling in Freedom of Information requests as well as making the accounts look like people are paid more than they actually are and the auditors have agreed to go along with it too?

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So Nowhere near the 60 grand average.

Note that these figures in the document provided by Irish Rail are all basic wages, it is before any bonus is throwed in, overtime, shift payments or any additional payments that staff get which would increase these salaries.

At the end of the day we know the salary scales now and we know the number of staff and the overall pay bill so we also know average wage, these are simple facts backed up by official and/or legally binding documents, however much you try and play the figures down, that's still the case.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So Nowhere near the 60 grand average.

You may want to re-read what you posted and argued:-

Hilly Bill wrote: »

GM228 wrote: »

Based on the most recent report (2015) IE had 3,796 staff, their total wage bill was €204,266,000.

That's an average of €53,810 per employee. Remember average does not necessarily represent the majority, but it is all we have to go on.

Based on the 2015 figures a 1.5% pay rise would cost around an extra €3.063M whilst a 3.5% pay rise would cost around an rxtra €7.1M per year.

Management would be the only ones near that as a basic.

You claimed that management would be the only ones near that (€53,810 by the way - not €60k) as a basic, your arguement has been rubbished.

You also claimed there were 325 managers - that arguement has also been rubbished.

You also claimed the grade I mentioned was not on over €40k or on a scale:-

GM228 wrote: »

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Lowest would be between 38 and 40 k with no sliding scale

For which grade? Your being very vague!

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The same one you think that they are getting over 40 k.

Again that arguement has also been rubbished.

Del.Monte

If they want to save money they should start at the top with the likes of Barry Kenny who serve no useful function and have so little work to do that they have second jobs in the media. :rolleyes:

murphthesmurf

GM228 wrote: »

Rubbish.

CTC Signalmen, drivers and many other grades are already above or near to that average for their basic, some grades are even near to that for year 1.





Even for example grade 4 (the lowest grade) station operatives are on €43k a year at year 10 (most are reaching year 10 now).

Jesus ****ing Christ !! 43k for a ****ing operative. You gotta be kidding me, that's ridiculous insanity. I hope it does go bankrupt and everyone of them has to join the real world. If anyone can somehow justify an operative earning that amount of money I'd love to hear it. It shouldn't be much more than minimum wage for that.

Jobs OXO

GM228 wrote: »

You may want to re-read what you posted and argued:-



You claimed that management would be the only ones near that (€53,810 by the way - not €60k) as a basic, your arguement has been rubbished.

You also claimed there were 325 managers - that arguement has also been rubbished.

You also claimed the grade I mentioned was not on over €40k or on a scale:-



Again that arguement has also been rubbished.

Sounds like someone was duped into one of the lower grades of one of the low paying roles and is trying to extrapolate out from his own meagre wages to the company as a whole.

end of the road

mini_Sapphire wrote: »

More money from a company going insolvent... you couldn't make it up. When they wind up on the dole queues they will have only themselves to blame

they are very unlikely to be on the dole queue. not only are there plenty of countries where they can go to drive, but whoever would replace irish rail in an insolvantsy situation, will want to get up and running as quickly as possible, meaning those drivers will be back rather quickly.

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

Not happy with your pay, get a job elsewhere. Go work in the UK if the money's so much better. Unions have there purpose, but they should not be allowed get away with this.

not happy with your pay, improve it and stay in the job so that the experience can remain within the company and within the country, staying here in ireland is the best option. there is nothing for the unions to not be allowed to get away with, as with-holding one's labour is perfectly legal and just.

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Jesus ****ing Christ !! 43k for a ****ing operative. You gotta be kidding me, that's ridiculous insanity. I hope it does go bankrupt and everyone of them has to join the real world. If anyone can somehow justify an operative earning that amount of money I'd love to hear it. It shouldn't be much more than minimum wage for that.

they are in the real world, and are earning what the particular job they do requires given all the relevant conditions. irish rail going bankrupt wouldn't change that reality long term, as whoever would replace them would pay similar. the job is not a minimum wage job and never will be, so it shouldn't be a minimum wage job otherwise nobody will do it.

GM228

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/unite-becomes-latest-union-to-ballot-for-irish-rail-strike-1.3236854?mode=amp

Unite to ballot also, expect TSSA and TEEU will follow suit.

Infini

Look its a bit pointless to say this and that about pay when its fairly clear that most of the staff outside of control, management and the driving grade arent even close to 60k. Hell even those on the top of the scale arent even past 49k before tax. Overtime cannot be counted as its not reliable. Even the highest driving pay is €55k at the top of the scale.

As for management sure theres permenant management but theres been alot of secondments and other middle management roles as well to consider.

GM228

Barry Kenny and Dermot O'Leary on Morning Ireland earlier.

https://www.rte.ie/radio1/morning-ireland/programmes/2017/0928/908133-morning-ireland-thursday-28-september-2017/?clipid=102616052#102616052

devnull

Infini wrote: »

Look its a bit pointless to say this and that about pay when its fairly clear that most of the staff outside of control, management and the driving grade arent even close to 60k. Hell even those on the top of the scale arent even past 49k before tax. Even the highest driving pay is €55k at the top.

So let me get this straight
- The driving grade are not close to 60k
- Then you say they are not past 49k before tax
- Then you say that it's 55k at the top

You sound pretty confused there as you're making several statements all which appear to contradict with each other, there's no consistancy in your argument on this point which makes it look like a fudge rather than a coherent point.

Overtime cannot be counted as its not reliable.

So it doesn't count when we are calculating your yearly take home package, but I bet if there was to be an arrangement which suddenly cut the amount you could earn from it it would count then and the unions would be up in arms about how much worse off it would leave their members like they were with Bus Eireann?

That's before we take into account that there are a lot more additional payments than overtime when it comes to extra, such as shift payments, bonuses, top ups and other perks that are offered by Irish Rail.

Infini

To be honest I could probably do a better explanation just to clarify but mobiles arent exactly format friendly! Also as for overtime it cant be counted correctly because its not a stable benchmark. You coud have one person raking it in and another barely doing it at all. Its also known the overtime is a result of lack of qualified drivers too and lack of staff in other areas.

Honestly though if this were simply about pay it might be rather too simple there has to be more going on. What sticks to me is how management would say a small pay rise but then look to butcher terms and conditions at the same time. I might not vote to strike for a pay rise alone but if they were attempting to undermine my pay by forcing me onto a job with lower wages through less hours or forced redeployments I would as it would be the company trying to breach my agreed contract.

trellheim

Are we going to do the DB, LUAS and BE strike threads again or will this one be more or less fun or can we just repost greatest hits lol

tayto lover

Overtime should never be factored into wages.
Some people work it and some wouldn't dream of working it. I never did. Also you can never rely on overtime being available and you never should.

The basic wage is what matters. If it's not good then people have a right to fight for better.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Yeah, because one employees payslip of one grade is more indicative of how much the company pay than a list of all the hundreds of grades and the salary scales that are on offer for those grades.:rolleyes:

Or do you really think that the company are dishonestly filling in Freedom of Information requests as well as making the accounts look like people are paid more than they actually are and the auditors have agreed to go along with it too?



Note that these figures in the document provided by Irish Rail are all basic wages, it is before any bonus is throwed in, overtime, shift payments or any additional payments that staff get which would increase these salaries.

At the end of the day we know the salary scales now and we know the number of staff and the overall pay bill so we also know average wage, these are simple facts backed up by official and/or legally binding documents, however much you try and play the figures down, that's still the case.

The average wage is still not 60 grand is it and bear in mind that overtime and allowances is non existent in some areas but feel free to begrudge the extra few quid on their basic. This is the same staff that took a cut in wages for a while to help the company.

devnull

Infini wrote: »

To be honest I could probably do a better explanation just to clarify but mobiles arent exactly format friendly! Also as for overtime it cant be counted correctly because its not a stable benchmark.

But the thing is at the end of the day everything adds up and the company still have to pay it and on average staff are taking home approx €55k and that will rise to almost €60k if they get the rise that they are looking for, it's simply not feasible, whether you think overtime should count or not, the simple fact is that it still needs to be paid for and is a payroll cost whether you like it or not.

Overtime is just one of the top-ups that people in Irish Rail are getting, there is many more from shift premiums, bonuses and other perks that would make up the overall staffing cost to the company. Whatever way you want to dress it up the average employee is earning approx €55k a year and they want that to increase to approx 57k which will cost the company over €7m which is a hell of a lot of money for a company that is in financial difficulty.

tayto lover wrote: »

Overtime should never be factored into wages.
Some people work it and some wouldn't dream of working it. I never did. Also you can never rely on overtime being available and you never should. The basic wage is what matters. If it's not good then people have a right to fight for better.

I have to laugh about people saying that overtime does not matter, if it was taken away from the staff or subject to cuts like was proposed in Bus Eireann the staff would be out on their heals saying that they were losing a lot of take home pay as we saw in past strikes.

It's strange, overtime doesn't count when we are calculating someones salary and how much they are paid, but if someone is losing that pay or having cuts to overtime then suddenly it is counted as an example that they are losing a big cut of their take home pay.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The average wage is still not 60 grand is it

The average wage is 55k, if everyone got the 3.5% rise it would be 57k.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

You may want to re-read what you posted and argued:-



You claimed that management would be the only ones near that (€53,810 by the way - not €60k) as a basic, your arguement has been rubbished.

You also claimed there were 325 managers - that arguement has also been rubbished.

You also claimed the grade I mentioned was not on over €40k or on a scale:-




Again that arguement has also been rubbished.

How many on that list was on over 60 grand as a basic?
I didn't claim 325 managers, i just said too many. I posted a random number because it was a bit dull to ask for a ball park figure.
The truth is that you Googled a set of figures and assumed that everyone must be on the top rate for that grade.

tayto lover

devnull wrote: »

But the thing is at the end of the day everything adds up and the company still have to pay it and on average staff are taking home approx €55k and that will rise to almost €60k if they get the rise that they are looking for, it's simply not feasible, whether you think overtime should count or not, the simple fact is that it still needs to be paid for and is a payroll cost whether you like it or not.





I have to laugh about people saying that overtime does not matter, if it was taken away from the staff or subject to cuts like was proposed in Bus Eireann the staff would be out on their heals saying that they were losing a lot of take home pay as we saw in past strikes.

It's strange, overtime doesn't count when we are calculating someones salary and how much they are paid, but if someone is losing that pay or having cuts to overtime then suddenly it is counted as an example that they are losing a big cut of their take home pay.

Feel free to roll on the floor laughing BUT if I was offered a job and they told me my earnings could rise to *** with overtime I wouldn't even factor it in.
The working week is long enough and family time cannot be replaced by overtime. I'd simply want a basic pay that I could live on and pay my bills. No pie in the sky for me. Sorry.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

The average wage is 55k, if everyone got the 3.5% rise it would be 57k.

So we have come down from 60 grand,

Do you reckon your mate at your local station is getting 55 grand a year basic?

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So we have come down from 60 grand.

I have said €54,876 at 11:55 and linked to the Irish Rail Annual report what I based it on so I think you're a bit behind if you think I've only just said it now.

Do you reckon your mate at your local station is getting 55 grand a year basic?

Actually there are a couple of guys who work at most of the stations I frequently use and some are younger and some are older, I would expect them to be on a range of different salaries depending on how long they have been there and what grade they are.

Infini

murphthesmurf wrote: »

Jesus ****ing Christ !! 43k for a ****ing operative. You gotta be kidding me, that's ridiculous insanity. I hope it does go bankrupt and everyone of them has to join the real world. If anyone can somehow justify an operative earning that amount of money I'd love to hear it. It shouldn't be much more than minimum wage for that.

Says who exactly? The court of jealousy perhaps? As for hoping the place goes bankrupt seriously what kind of post is that exactly? That reeks of jealousy and hypocrisy to be honest.

devnull wrote: »

The average wage is 55k, if everyone got the 3.5% rise it would be 57k.

I would note though that "averages" can be deceptive as it can depend on HOW those averages are calculated that can skew the figure. If those averages involve only the main staff itself and not management they could be semi accurate but if you add in middle/upper management as well as clerical it can skew the figure significantly. You also have to factor in hours as some can be on as low as 36 and others as high as 48.

Edit: It should be said as well that most of the traffic grade is on a fixed rate with no time and a half etc those went with the 2000 era contracts. There's no lunch allowances etc except maybe in the Driving Grade where your out of depot but I think thats been gone a while.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

So let me get this straight
- The driving grade are not close to 60k
- Then you say they are not past 49k before tax
- Then you say that it's 55k at the top

You sound pretty confused there as you're making several statements all which appear to contradict with each other, there's no consistancy in your argument on this point which makes it look like a fudge rather than a coherent point.



So it doesn't count when we are calculating your yearly take home package, but I bet if there was to be an arrangement which suddenly cut the amount you could earn from it it would count then and the unions would be up in arms about how much worse off it would leave their members like they were with Bus Eireann?

That's before we take into account that there are a lot more additional payments than overtime when it comes to extra, such as shift payments, bonuses, top ups and other perks that are offered by Irish Rail.

I know of loads that would love to get shift payments, no idea as to what this mythical bonuses top ups and perks that is supposed to make up the wages.
Just admit that you are a begrudger for whatever reason and move on.

Hilly Bill

Infini wrote: »

To be honest I could probably do a better explanation just to clarify but mobiles arent exactly format friendly! Also as for overtime it cant be counted correctly because its not a stable benchmark. You coud have one person raking it in and another barely doing it at all. Its also known the overtime is a result of lack of qualified drivers too and lack of staff in other areas.

Honestly though if this were simply about pay it might be rather too simple there has to be more going on. What sticks to me is how management would say a small pay rise but then look to butcher terms and conditions at the same time. I might not vote to strike for a pay rise alone but if they were attempting to undermine my pay by forcing me onto a job with lower wages through less hours or forced redeployments I would as it would be the company trying to breach my agreed contract.

They can't lower your basic, the only thing that you could loose is overtime and allowances and not a lot that you can do about that.

devnull

Infini wrote: »

I would note though that "averages" can be deceptive as it can depend on HOW those averages are calculated that can skew the figure. If those averages involve only the main staff itself and not management they could be semi accurate but if you add in middle/upper management as well as clerical it can skew the figure significantly.

A small number of people earning a lot makes very little difference because the numbers earning it are so small that is has only a small effect on the average pay, there'd also be some part timers who would drag the average figure down as well so it works both ways.

The Irish Rail Annual Report and accounts would by standard include all the employees over the whole company and the salary bill would include all of the salaries for the whole company as well, nobody would be left out of this because that is not how accounting practices work, you do not get to pick and choose what you include in your accounts.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I know of loads that would love to get shift payments, no idea as to what this mythical bonuses top ups and perks that is supposed to make up the wages.

There clearly is perks and top-ups in Irish Rail because the unions have been going on about them in the past and lest remember in Bus Eireann there was a whole document circulated by the company detailing a large number of additional payments, premiums and perks that were going to be cut despite the fact some on here said they previously didn't exist.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They can't lower your basic, the only thing that you could loose is overtime and allowances and not a lot that you can do about that.

Do you really think that if they started cutting the overtime rates, allowances and other additions to your basic wage, the staff would just accept that, or would they go to the press Bus Eireann style turning around and saying that they have lost x% of take home pay even though their basic wage was untouched?

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

But the thing is at the end of the day everything adds up and the company still have to pay it and on average staff are taking home approx €55k and that will rise to almost €60k if they get the rise that they are looking for, it's simply not feasible, whether you think overtime should count or not, the simple fact is that it still needs to be paid for and is a payroll cost whether you like it or not.

Overtime is just one of the top-ups that people in Irish Rail are getting, there is many more from shift premiums, bonuses and other perks that would make up the overall staffing cost to the company. Whatever way you want to dress it up the average employee is earning approx €55k a year and they want that to increase to approx 57k which will cost the company over €7m which is a hell of a lot of money for a company that is in financial difficulty.



I have to laugh about people saying that overtime does not matter, if it was taken away from the staff or subject to cuts like was proposed in Bus Eireann the staff would be out on their heals saying that they were losing a lot of take home pay as we saw in past strikes.

It's strange, overtime doesn't count when we are calculating someones salary and how much they are paid, but if someone is losing that pay or having cuts to overtime then suddenly it is counted as an example that they are losing a big cut of their take home pay.

Can you amend the bit that says that staff are earning 55 k to some staff are earning 55k.
If you was to be told on Monday that you was going to be taking home up to 30% less each week would you just bend over and take it without lube or would you have your say? If you felt that you haven't had a pay rise in a number of years would you ask or just stay quiet as a mouse and carry on?
What you have failed to realise that these pay claims has come as a result of management looking to make changes and not the management looking for changes as a result of a pay claim.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

A small number of people earning a lot makes very little difference because the numbers earning it are so small that is has only a small effect on the average pay, there'd also be some part timers who would drag the average figure down as well so it works both ways.

The Irish Rail Annual Report and accounts would by standard include all the employees over the whole company and the salary bill would include all of the salaries for the whole company as well, nobody would be left out of this because that is not how accounting practices work, you do not get to pick and choose what you include in your accounts.



There clearly is perks and top-ups in Irish Rail because the unions have been going on about them in the past and lest remember in Bus Eireann there was a whole document circulated by the company detailing a large number of additional payments, premiums and perks that were going to be cut despite the fact some on here said they previously didn't exist.



Do you really think that if they started cutting the overtime rates, allowances and other additions to your basic wage, the staff would just accept that, or would they go to the press Bus Eireann style turning around and saying that they have lost x% of take home pay even though their basic wage was untouched?

Care to mention these perks and top ups?
If you are doing the same job the you have a legit reason to hold onto whatever you are getting.
If the job that. you are doing ceases to be and you get moved somewhere else then you loose the expenses etc.

Night Falls

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Can you amend the bit that says that staff are earning 55 k to some staff are earning 55k.

What part of average don't you understand?

Infini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They can't lower your basic, the only thing that you could loose is overtime and allowances and not a lot that you can do about that.

True but what they want is to push alot of these station workers onto the customer service thing which is a lower hours contract.

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Can you amend the bit that says that staff are earning 55 k to some staff are earning 55k.

I'm simply said that staff are earning almost €55k on average.

These are the facts.

If you was to be told on Monday that you was going to be taking home up to 30% less each week would you just bend over and take it without lube or would you have your say?

You are the one who said overtime didn't count, not me.

If my company was close to being insolvent I wouldn't be asking for a pay rise at the end of the day and this thread is about staff who are asking for a pay rise and I think it's most unwise at the moment, since they are not badly paid at all.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

How many on that list was on over 60 grand as a basic?

Just 8 grades.

IE will not release the information, but based on 2014 information they gave 25% of staff were earning a basic of over €56k, based on 2016 staff numbers that would be about 950 staff.

Something we seem to have overlooked is that the average we have calculated includes overtime as it is the total wage bill, but we are comparing basic rates, the current overtime bill is €13M so if you remove that to factor in an accurate basic average it is around €50k per year bringing even more near or over the average basic.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I didn't claim 325 managers, i just said too many.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

devnull wrote: »

So since you say there are too many, give us a ballpark figure since you must have a rough idea to come to the conclusion that there are too many.

324 with 1 out sick.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I posted a random number because it was a bit dull to ask for a ball park figure.

So you posted a random figure meaning you had no idea and still tried to argue I was wrong, very credible.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The truth is that you Googled a set of figures and assumed that everyone must be on the top rate for that grade.

The truth is Google will not give you those figures, go try. I gave very specific rates, do you think I could do such without having all that in front of me?

I never assumed nor claimed everyone must be on any particular rate either - but I do know that the majority of the staff I mentioned are nearing the upper rates of their grades. Considering IE have not mass recruited in most grades (gate keeper, customer services and maintenance related excepted) in 10 years it does not take a genius to work out that most station operatives are at or near year 10, and for your information I have a lot of information to hand on the matter due to my links with the industrial relations world and don't need to go Googling for it.

In any case how I got my information is irrelevant, it was corroberated - at least I didn't give random figures because ball park figures are dull.

Infini

I wont doubt the information GM228 has its reasonably accurate. I would only argue over saying the average wage is 60k when its not excluding optional overtime as its not reliable unlike on a basic pay scale.

As for the threat of a strike the pay is an easy catch all but there is other issues at play. Trust I believe on the last employee survey is that around 57% of the staff distrust management. This is a result of the way management have generally acted towards their own staff over the years and led to a buildup of animousity.

GM228

Infini wrote: »

I would only argue over saying the average wage is 60k when its not excluding optional overtime as its not reliable unlike on a basic pay scale.

As pointed out so many times the average IS €54,876 - no one is claiming it is €60k.

The annual OT bill is around €13M, factor that out and average wage is around €51,731 (not 100% accurate for the average basic but close enough).

devnull

Infini wrote: »

I wont doubt the information GM228 has its reasonably accurate. I would only argue over saying the average wage is 60k when its not excluding optional overtime as its not reliable unlike on a basic pay scale.

They never said €60k, I said rougly €60k this morning but since edited that post and said I was using out of date figures and to see the later post, I made a post at 11:55am I stated that the average pay was just under €55k and referenced my sources which was the 2016 Irish Rail annual report.

The source I used for all my figures were official documents released by Irish Rail such as a Freedom of Information request which is contained on their website, their auditied accounts from the companies registration office and their annual reports which can be found on their website.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

More up to date.

And the figures I provided are confirmed:-

Grade Code|Description|Contract Hours|Min of Scale|Max of Scale
S34|CTC Signalpersons 39 - 48 Hr Arrangement|48|51596.29|58632.58
V48|Loco Driver 39/48 Hour Arrangement|48|43716.99|55238.59
S11|Station Operative Grade 4 39/48 Hour|48|33391.58|43650.22

Also confirms exactly 50 managers/executives as of December 2015.

I rest my case.

This data does not include the pay restoration which took place in November 2016?

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

This data does not include the pay restoration which took place in November 2016?

It does, the rates never changed, rather there was a deduction or "foregoing of pay" made for legal reasons.

pjohnson

trellheim wrote: »

Are we going to do the DB, LUAS and BE strike threads again or will this one be more or less fun or can we just repost greatest hits lol

Until something is done about Unions this cycle will keep going. I thought they'd wait until mid-term/new year to pull their next stunt but they went earlier.

bebeman

When BE where on strike the government said there is no money, you cant have a pay rise.
One week after they went back to work without their grievences solved, in a act of hubris the government announced it was going to spend 1,000,000,000 on transport, it rubbbed salt into the wound.
Anyone who works for IE.BE.DB can tell you the number of Free Travel Passes in use today is off the chart, it is staggering how many people have them, yet the money paid by government has not increased in years. Just one example of underfunding.
Outsiders really have no idea what is going on, the media have you believing IE.BE.DB are the bad guys, but you dont know a tenth of what is going on in the day to day running of these companies. (hint) outside interference.

XPS_Zero

end of the road wrote: »

XPS_Zero wrote: »

yOU KNOW IN real jobs in the real world every little thing you might be asked to do is not LITERALLY listed in your contract?

i do yes. because i'm in a real job in the real world. and i don't get obligated to do things that aren't part of my job description.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

It's called flexibility.

no it's called being asked to do things that aren't part of the job. in relation to the topic at hand, i would agree that what devnull suggested should be part of the job of station staff, so the company have to implement that in the contracts.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Already that's a major thing, but if they were actually you know...good...at customer service the public would never tolerate them being crapped on they'd support them in industrial action. It's not unions protecting terms and conditions and preventing abuse people hate it's unions protecting sloth, inefficiency and laziness that is why when CIE and the likes of DSP and HSE go on strike nobody supports them because peoples personal experience with those agencies is nearly universally negative, because they've no customer service ethos they don't see themselves as a public service they see the public as an irritation or annoyance they are burdened with dealing with.

no it's because they are jealous of the terms conditions and wages. i have had bad experiences over the years with state agencies however if the staff feel they have a genuine greevence then they have a genuine greevence and my support will be on the basis of the information rather then my experiences of the agency. unions protect terms and conditions only, it's up to the company to deal with inefficientsy and lazy staff.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Were trying to tell you that if you took up that ethos (widely, I know SOME have it in those agencies though not many) it would HELP you and get you more support.

no it wouldn't. it really wouldn't.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Don't blindly just rely on the fact that as state employees you can never be fired, those days are going to ebb away. You need a base of public support and you won't get it by sayin "sarry luve dats not in me contract".

no no . the luas and plenty of other strikes which have had little public support, have shown us that while a base of public support is nice, it ultimately doesn't help the workers get a good deal.

Ok....sorry guys but I can't deal with this new quote system it may be that it's just crap or my browser or that it confuses me but it comes up as fragmented and duplicates itself several times when I try to use it, ingraining my replies with past posts quoted...I can't use it.

Anyway...

Job description is a wide category, in no real job in the real world (the public sector does NOT count as such, any of it, it's a protected bubble with work practices that would never be tolerated outside) lists EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE thing you might be asked to do and expecing that is irrational and inflexible.
Being asked to drive a train when you work on the customer desks is "not part of your job", but being asked to do general work around the station is perfectly reasonable...you see this is the EXACT thing about the PS that frustrates those of us in the private sector and robs you of any support, you are so inflexible you can't even compute mentally doing something remotly flexible unless it's added into the contract, and we both know what will happen when IE try to do that, it will drag out for months or years and come with a slew of pay and allowance demands....all of this is EXACTLY what is robbing PS of support and destroying the whole idea of unions in the public mindset...this right here RIGHT HERE is it.
No were not f----g jealous of your T and C's we don't expect a special allowance because we work on an island ffsake were not that unreasonable!  Sure we'd like higher pay but it's not the higher pay we have a problem with it's the inflexibility and absurd allowances. THe hilarious but also incredibly frustrating thing is you are in this very post DEMONSTRATING exactly the problem with your mindset, you can't even conceive that we mind honestly and genuinely think you are being inflexible and just dismiss us as jealous...but were not just other workers were also your paymasters AND customers so you ought to care what we think because who we elect decides if these insane policies keep going and eventually this kind of attitude will (mark my bloody words) trigger a backlash so severe the baby will go out with the bathwater and even the good things PS unions have fought for will be gone too, you are shooting yourselves and future workers in the foot in the long run with this intransigent inflexible attitude.

"it's up to the company to deal with lazy staff and inefficiency"
But tha'ts just it!!..where do you think the inefficiency CAME from?  The second IE managers come up with an idea to fix it the union with throw a tantrum, threaten strikes and say it will make the sky fall, so it never happens.

You just ended that post literally saying a proper customer service ethos and attitude change would not get you more support, .....that speaks for itself.

In that post you have just proved, by your own words and attitude on display, everything I was saying...and I gotta tell you it honestly scares the hell out of me not because I'd have a problem (and I wont when the time comes) steamrolling over all of you to force reform on you, but because I worry someone more reactionary than me is going to get into the job because of tis kind of attitude ^^ and throw the baby out with the bathwater, you are undermining the very idea of unions with this attitude.

hmmm

bebeman wrote: »

yet the money paid by government has not increased in years. Just one example of underfunding.

Why should the government pay more money, just to see it disappear into the pockets of workers?

The union are playing a very weak hand here, I don't see what their strategy is. BE at least had a monopoly stranglehold on certain services, and even they largely capitulated. All that a strike is going to do is highlight how little we depend on train services, and how impotent the union is.

Perhaps it's just window dressing by the union bosses to placate militants, because they must know full well what the outcome will be.

Jamie2k9

bebeman wrote: »

When BE where on strike the government said there is no money, you cant have a pay rise.
One week after they went back to work without their grievences solved, in a act of hubris the government announced it was going to spend 1,000,000,000 on transport, it rubbbed salt into the wound.
Anyone who works for IE.BE.DB can tell you the number of Free Travel Passes in use today is off the chart, it is staggering how many people have them, yet the money paid by government has not increased in years. Just one example of underfunding.
Outsiders really have no idea what is going on, the media have you believing IE.BE.DB are the bad guys, but you dont know a tenth of what is going on in the day to day running of these companies. (hint) outside interference.

Bad guys??, people are fed up with the same merry go round (annually at this stage) from CIE workers about pay and productivity.

Demand, Talks, Ballot, Strike, Talks, Sorted, you get the same outcome with minor changes every time. Just take yesterdays talks, there was always one outcome and has been for the last 6 months. IE offered something unreasonable because they knew there was just no point in offering anything else as a strike was guaranteed. Why play your hand when you will be back at the table in 6 weeks again.

Most know CIE are no prefect however I don't think staff help themselves and in particular your representatives.

XPS_Zero

bebeman wrote: »

When BE where on strike the government said there is no money, you cant have a pay rise.
One week after they went back to work without their grievences solved, in a act of hubris the government announced it was going to spend  1,000,000,000 on transport,  it rubbbed salt into the wound.
Anyone who works for IE.BE.DB can tell you the number of Free Travel Passes in use today is off the chart, it is staggering how many people have them, yet the money paid by government has not increased in years. Just one example of underfunding.
Outsiders really have no idea what is going on, the media have you believing IE.BE.DB are the bad guys,  but you dont know a tenth of  what is going on in the day to day running of these companies.  (hint) outside interference.

The govt never said there was no money for transport, they said there was no money in BE for the demands being made and that was a statement of indisputable fact the unions refused to accept.  Their company was going bankrupt and they wanted the state to divert cash from education and healthcare and social welfare to prop it up, which was unacceptable to both the govt and voters.  They said they were not getting out the chequebook to fix BE because Expressway is a commercial company not PSO.  They did not say there was no money for transport, there are plenty of great transport infrastructure projects the state can fund, tossing good money after bad into BE would have been foolish.
Which is why the unions had to come back to earth and a more reasonable deal was worked out.
Free Travel costs 0.7% of the national budget and is paid for by the DSP not CIE, recent research also suggests it is self funding in what it saves the healthcare system in both mental and physical health costs that's without getting into what it puts into local economies along rail and bus routes.  25% of passengers have them that is not "staggering", you are confusing anecdotal evidence of occasions where you personally saw a lot of people in a row with one with most people having them, 1/4 have them.  The numbers have been going up because of demographics in a trend that started in the late 80s , the population is getting older by average, that's all.
FT provides a big subsidy to CIE without which it would have to raise ticket prices to compensate and this would only be offset with a slight increase in fares from former FT users who would stop using it except for essential travel. 
Funding was increased in the last budget and will be again in the next one according to even this govt.  So don't be worrying about a minor welfare program worry more about the nasty financial state of your companies which can't seem to get their act togtther for some reason (union intransigence and refusal to accept reality being one factor)
The outside interference is the NTA who have dragged you kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

bebeman

hmmm wrote: »

The union are playing a very weak hand here, I don't see what their strategy is. BE at least had a monopoly stranglehold on certain services, and even they largely capitulated. All that a strike is going to do is highlight how little we depend on train services, and how impotent the union is.
.

As country folk love to tell everyone the government only cares about Dublin.
If the Dart goes on strike, it will cause problems, Dublin Bus are as close to capacity as can be on routes that run near the Dart. The Dart carries a lot of people who will now have to use cars to get to work, the city is already a nightmare for traffic, what do you think will happen when thousands of extra cars are on the road?
It will mess up Dublin Bus for starters, traffic will grind to a halt in Dublin, we will then see if the country folk are correct.

XPS_Zero

They're not correct.

BE strike affected Dublin too eventually in many ways even from the start...nobody cared, it didn't make more money appear in BEs account, it just made people get Swords Express and Aircoach and Translink instead.   If they shut down the capital over a pay dispute when they are in protected jobs with 100% security something none of those people inconvenienced will enjoy when some of them are hitting between 700 and 1000 a week that will only backfire just like it did on BE and you will get nowhere.
It's not the 70s anymore lads, and any credibility PS unions had they destroyed themselves long ago with this exact kind of behavior, going into even comic territory striking over new trains at one stage.

Jamie2k9

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/irish-rail-say-strike-can-be-averted-as-unions-ballot-on-action-over-arrogant-and-incredible-demands-807708.html

Corporate Communications Manager with Irish Rail, Barry Kenny, says he believes strike action can be avoided.

He said: "It definitely can be averted. We will go back to the Workplace Relations Commission immediately on this and if it can't be resolved, we will take that referral at the Labour Court as the Labour Court set out.

"We do hope that the ballot process is put aside and the trade unions re-engage with us, because everybody loses if we have a dispute.

"We will lose financially and be in an even worse position in terms of trying to respond to the employees' wish for improved earnings."