Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

horseburger

horseburger wrote: »

I guess, an example of what you are saying, is when during the strike that occurred last April, that there was no other company operating a service, connecting the towns that are served on the Bus Éireann number 30, Dublin Donegal Town service. There was no other bus or rail service connecting Donegal Town, Ballyshannon, Cavan, Virginia and Dublin Airport and Dublin City Centre.

There have been changes to the Donegal Town Dublin number 30 service since 11th February. There are two more services operating during the night from Donegal Town to Dublin, at 2.30am and 4am, as well as 1am and 5.30am.

There are now services from Dublin at 11pm and 12.30am to Donegal Town.

The 2.30am and 5.30am services cover Bellanaleck, Derrylin, Belturbet and Butlersbridge. There is no other company operating at that time of night, to and from Dublin and Donegal Town.

There are also number 30 bus services, covering Bellanaleck, Derrylin, Belturbet and Butlersbridge, throughout the day, to and from Dublin and Donegal Town.

http://buseireann.ie/news.php?id=2591&month=Feb

http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1517307968-30.pdf

Perhaps, another example of what you are saying, is the difference in the timetables between the services operated between Bus Éireann and McGinley's Coaches, on their services between Letterkenny and Dublin.

Bus Éireann operates more daily services, to and from Dublin and Letterkenny, compared to McGinley's.

Bus Éireann operates a last service, in both directions, later than the last services operated in both directions by McGinley's Coaches.

McGinley's last service from Dublin, Monday to Friday is 7.30pm, on Saturday 5.45pm and Sunday 8.30pm.

McGinley's last service from Letterkenny to Dublin Monday to Saturday is 5.15pm, and on Sunday its last service from Letterkenny is 6.30pm.

The last Bus Éireann number 32 daily service from Letterkenny to Dublin is 7.45pm, and the last service from Dublin to Letterkenny is 10.45pm.

http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/1478276752-32.pdf

http://www.johnmcginley.com/timetable.html#

http://www.johnmcginley.com/_route_a.html

http://www.johnmcginley.com/_route_b.html

Since you are so interested in Donegal, tell me who connects West and North Donegal to Letterkenny?

Is it Bus Eireann or private companies?

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

you could, but you could also improve the terms and conditions of the job you are in, for the future betterment of yourself and future workers. moving jobs isn't always financially viable, or even desirable.

And companies should be able to improve the calibre of workers they have, for the future betterment of the role and the company.

Get rid of the deadwood and wasters.

end of the road

salonfire wrote: »

And companies should be able to improve the calibre of workers they have, for the future betterment of the role and the company.

Get rid of the deadwood and wasters.

companies are already able to do this. it's called disciplinary procedures.

pjohnson

end of the road wrote: »

companies are already able to do this. it's called disciplinary procedures.

Yeah but the the union buckos get cranky and threaten to strike.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

companies are already able to do this. it's called disciplinary procedures.

Really? And the company can continue to deliver services to their customers without having strike action?

end of the road

pjohnson wrote: »

Yeah but the the union buckos get cranky and threaten to strike.

no they don't. unless of course it turns out the disciplinary procedure hasn't been caried out correctly, which if that has been the case, they would have a point and a right to be annoyed. if it is caried out correctly, which most likely it will be, then there are no grounds for a strike and there won't be one.

salonfire wrote: »

Really? And the company can continue to deliver services to their customers without having strike action?

yes

horseburger

salonfire wrote: »

Since you are so interested in Donegal, tell me who connects West and North Donegal to Letterkenny?

Is it Bus Eireann or private companies?

McGinley's don't operate as frequently throughout the day between Letterkenny and Dublin, as the Bus Éireann number 32 service, which relates to the point that was being made, by end of the road, that if Bus Éireann was to go on strike, that private operators would not be able to accommodate all the people, who would usually use the Bus Éireann services, throughout the day.

The difference between the McGinley's service, and the Bus Éireann number 32 service, is an example of the point made, by end of the road.

What's wrong with being interested in Donegal?

What's your problem with Donegal?

devnull

salonfire wrote: »

Since you are so interested in Donegal, tell me who connects West and North Donegal to Letterkenny?

horseburger wrote: »

What's wrong with being interested in Donegal?

What's your problem with Donegal?

The biggest thing that is wrong with it and the bus services that serve it is that it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand which is Irish Rail and the issues with industrial relations in that company, so I'd appreciate it if both of you could stick to the topic at hand.

- Moderator

horseburger

horseburger wrote: »

McGinley's don't operate as frequently throughout the day between Letterkenny and Dublin, as the Bus Éireann number 32 service, which relates to the point that was being made, by end of the road, that if Bus Éireann was to go on strike, that private operators would not be able to accommodate all the people, who would usually use the Bus Éireann services, throughout the day.

The difference between the McGinley's service, and the Bus Éireann number 32 service, is an example of the point made, by end of the road.

What's wrong with being interested in Donegal?

What's your problem with Donegal?

Since you avoided the question, I'll tell you.

It is not Bus Eireann that provides bus services in Donegal but private operators. Private operators who somehow managed to not go on strike for weeks on end.

So stop with the 'if only for Bus Eireann, there would be no service'

horseburger

salonfire wrote: »

Since you avoided the question, I'll tell you.

It is not Bus Eireann that provides bus services in Donegal but private operators. Private operators who somehow managed to not go on strike for weeks on end.

So stop with the 'if only for Bus Eireann, there would be no service'

The point is not 'if only for Éireann'. The point is, that, as it stands, Bus Éireann operates numerous routes, connecting locations between the start and end of routes - connections, to and from locations, that are not served, by any other operator. The locations covered on the number 30 Donegal Dublin service, is an example of that.

No private operator operates a service covering Donegal Town, Ballyshannon, Enniskillen, Derrylin, Belturbet, Butlersbridge, Cavan, Virginia, Dublin Airport and Dublin City Centre.

As it stands, Bus Éireann operate numerous local routes, connecting towns and villages, which include connections that are not served by any other operator. For example the Bus Éireann service, that connects Drogheda, Slane, Navan and Trim.

The other point is, that in circumstances where a private operator does serve locations that are also served by Bus Éireann, there are examples where Bus Éireann operate services, more frequently, throughout the day.

The Bus Éireann and McGinley's services between Letterkenny and Dublin, is an example of that, as is the Bus Éireann NX, 109 and 109A services, between Navan and Dublin, in comparison to the Sillan Tours Navan - Dublin service. (The 109A serves Bus Aras throughout the night)

I didn't avoid the question. I referenced McGinley's in my reply to you, but I also stated that its Letterkenny Dublin service is not as frequent, throughout the day, as the Bus Éireann number 32 service.

You tend to keep avoiding those issues.

Stephen15

I thought all the buses in Donegal bar McGinleys were either BE or Translink operated since Lough Swilly bit the dust a couple of years ago.

horseburger

Stephen15 wrote: »

I thought all the buses in Donegal bar McGinleys were either BE or Translink operated since Lough Swilly bit the dust a couple of years ago.

Does McGeehan's operate on behalf of Bus Éireann?

The links to services, listed on its website, for Dublin, link to Bus Éireann's site.

http://www.mcgeehancoaches.com/dublin.html
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/490-1516103418.pdf
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/492-1516102657.pdf
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/30-1514546755.pdf

McGeehan's website lists a service between Glencolmcille and Letterkenny. Is this service one of McGeehan's own services?

http://www.mcgeehancoaches.com/letterkenny.html

Here is an item in the Derry Journal, about the ending of the Lough Swilly bus services:

https://www.derryjournal.com/news/end-of-an-era-as-the-lough-swilly-bus-company-closes-its-doors-for-the-last-time-1-6034462

Jamie2k9

I see unions have delayed the bailout announcement, I guess clever PR stunt....

L1011

Stephen15 wrote: »

I thought all the buses in Donegal bar McGinleys were either BE or Translink operated since Lough Swilly bit the dust a couple of years ago.

McGeehans as mentioned, and Feda, and extensive Rural Transport Scheme operations.

BE serve very little of the county.

horseburger

L1011 wrote: »

McGeehans as mentioned, and Feda, and extensive Rural Transport Scheme operations.

BE serve very little of the county.

As I understand it, McGeehan's operate local services, in co-operation with Bus Éireann.

On the McGeehan's page, when you click for details on the three services listed, it links to Bus Éireann's site:

http://www.mcgeehancoaches.com/dublin.html
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/490-1516103418.pdf
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/492-1516102657.pdf
http://www.buseireann.ie/timetables/30-1514546755.pdf

McGeehan's website lists a service between Glencolmcille and Letterkenny. Is this service one of McGeehan's own services, that is run independently?

It does not sound like McGeehan's operates this service independently of Bus Éireann.

At the bottom, it states that "Passengers for Bus Eireann services to Dublin/Sligo/Galway transfer in Killybegs.", so it sounds like McGeehan's run the services listed on its website, in co-operation with Bus Éireann, and not independently of Bus Éireann, in the way that other companies operate, for example Sillan Tours, JJ Kavanagh's, Aircoach and Citylink.

On the 490 Donegal Glencolmcille timetable, on Bus Éireann's site, it mentions which particular scheduled services, between Killybegs and Glencolmcille, that are operated by McGeehan's. On the 492 Donegal Dungloe timetable on Bus Éireann's site, it mentions that certain services that are operated by McGeehan's.

If McGeehan's operated independently of Bus Éireann, neither company would mention the other company, on the timetables on their website.

For example, neither Bus Éireann or Sillan Tours, mention each other's timetables, between Navan and Dublin, on their websites.

http://www.mcgeehancoaches.com/letterkenny.html

PeterParker957

end of the road wrote: »

no they don't. unless of course it turns out the disciplinary procedure hasn't been caried out correctly, which if that has been the case, they would have a point and a right to be annoyed. if it is caried out correctly, which most likely it will be, then there are no grounds for a strike and there won't be one.


yes

God I'd love to live in your little imaginary world.

end of the road

PeterParker957 wrote: »

God I'd love to live in your little imaginary world.

the beauty about it is that it actually isn't an imaginary world but the real world.
if the disciplinary procedure is caried out correctly then there is no grounds for a strike and the company can go to court and prove there is no grounds for a strike and get an injunction.

devnull

PeterParker957 wrote: »

God I'd love to live in your little imaginary world.

Constructive posts only please.

Moderator

Jamie2k9

€459m deficit in CIÉ pensions, Oireachtas committee hears

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0307/945602-cie-pension-deficit/

PeterParker957

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0307/945602-cie-pension-deficit/

Great news, their pensions might now actually reflect the work they've done and their commitment to their passengers.

I guarantee the Union pensions are gold plated and untouchable!

eeguy

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0307/945602-cie-pension-deficit/

So in 10 years they've reduced the deficit by 40 million. Another 120 years and they'll be solvent :rolleyes:

bebeman

eeguy wrote: »

So in 10 years they've reduced the deficit by 40 million. Another 120 years and they'll be solvent :rolleyes:

Genius move by CIE management.
See the Government want to privatise CIE.
Create a huge pension deficit.
Any private operators who want to take over CIE will have to take responsibility for the CIE pension fund, instant €500million hole in finances.
Any cuts to pensions will see mother of all CIE strikes, most likely bring out the entire public service on strike as well.
So only options are
1, Government bail out pension fund, that would cause even more long term problems.
2, Leave CIE as it is and kick the can down the road.
Face the facts , CIE is here to stay.

L1011

I'd like to see the maths behind this

There are two general backgrounds to figures like this. The deficit being very real and caused either by underinvestement or Maxwell style behaviour; or the deficit not being real due to awful maths

The USPS in the US is being tortured financially by how much they're having to put in due to awful maths, including funding for notional staff they don't even have yet. Particularly as mail sorting and delivery gets increasingly automated and counter staff reduced for them. Same is happening in CIE - as functions get outsourced there won't be CIE pensions to be paid.

The UK university pension funds are required to calculate for a continuing, significant increase in life expectancy due to panics from the 1990s when it was still increasing rapidly. It has tailed off hugely but this is causing over-provisioning (or over-calculation of the under-provisioning)


The management fund being in worse state than the others is almost unique - Carillion in the UK had a fully funded management one and the rest in ribbons.

fxotoole

bebeman wrote: »

Genius move by CIE management.
See the Government want to privatise CIE.
Create a huge pension deficit.
Any private operators who want to take over CIE will have to take responsibility for the CIE pension fund, instant €500million hole in finances.
Any cuts to pensions will see mother of all CIE strikes, most likely bring out the entire public service on strike as well.
So only options are
1, Government bail out pension fund, that would cause even more long term problems.
2, Leave CIE as it is and kick the can down the road.
Face the facts , CIE is here to stay.

Unfrotunately.

end of the road

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Great news, their pensions might now actually reflect the work they've done and their commitment to their passengers.

I guarantee the Union pensions are gold plated and untouchable!

their pensions already reflected the requirements of the job.
being happy people you don't know have lost out on a pension just because they dare to strike the odd time is ridiculous.

fxotoole wrote: »

Unfrotunately.

no . as we have established from the uk, none of the issues of the railway are sorted by privatization. the government obviously feel it's not worth the risk or money based on the uk's experience.

Jamie2k9

bebeman wrote: »

Genius move by CIE management.
See the Government want to privatise CIE.
Create a huge pension deficit.
Any private operators who want to take over CIE will have to take responsibility for the CIE pension fund, instant €500million hole in finances.
Any cuts to pensions will see mother of all CIE strikes, most likely bring out the entire public service on strike as well.
So only options are
1, Government bail out pension fund, that would cause even more long term problems.
2, Leave CIE as it is and kick the can down the road.
Face the facts , CIE is here to stay.

There is always a 3rd option....

john boye

Praising a company for a 500 million black hole in the accounts is certainly... maverick, I'll give you that.

PeterParker957

end of the road wrote: »

their pensions already reflected the requirements of the job.
being happy people you don't know have lost out on a pension just because they dare to strike the odd time is ridiculous.




no . as we have established from the uk, none of the issues of the railway are sorted by privatization. the government obviously feel it's not worth the risk or money based on the uk's experience.

"We" have established nothing.

You may think that but I hate to break it to you flower, but you are not the arbiter of what truth is. Ever.

LeinsterDub

bebeman wrote: »

Genius move by CIE management....Create a huge pension deficit.

That would be illegal as fair as I'm aware.

bebeman wrote: »

See the Government want to privatise CIE.

Is there any evidence the Government wants to privatise CIÉ

PeterParker957

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That would be illegal as fair as I'm aware.




Is there any evidence the Government wants to privatise CIÉ

Does unfounded union paranoia count ????

john boye

john boye wrote: »

Praising a company for a 500 million black hole in the accounts is certainly... maverick, I'll give you that.

Somebody pointed out to me here that it wasnt set up to make a profit.

Its certainly achieved that aim :pac::pac:

end of the road

PeterParker957 wrote: »

"We" have established nothing.

we actually have. i can't force you to believe reality however, i can only provide the information. after that it's up to you what you do with it or whether you except it or not.

PeterParker957 wrote: »

"You may think that but I hate to break it to you flower, but you are not the arbiter of what truth is. Ever.

correct, just as well i never claimed otherwise. the truth is the arbiter of what truth is however.

MOH

end of the road wrote: »

we actually have. i can't force you to believe reality however, i can only provide the information. after that it's up to you what you do with it or whether you except it or not.
.

We certainly haven't

trellheim

Shutdown CIE completely a better option for the taxpayer ?

Switch to DC Pensions, state agree to fund 50% of current Pension liability, here's all our trainsets and buses, party on

PeterParker957

end of the road wrote: »

we actually have. i can't force you to believe reality however, i can only provide the information. after that it's up to you what you do with it or whether you except accept it or not.



correct, just as well i never claimed otherwise. the truth is the arbiter of what truth is however.

Stay in school, kids!

monument

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Stay in school, kids!

Banned for a day — not for this post alone but a trend if posts like this and the warnings not sinking in.

— moderator

bebeman

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is always a 3rd option....

Don't leave us hanging, do tell.

bebeman

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That would be illegal as fair as I'm aware.




Is there any evidence the Government wants to privatise CIÉ

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Does unfounded union paranoia count ????

What bubble do you 2 live in?
10% of routes gone to Go Ahead ,the other 90% up for tender next year.

frag420

end of the road wrote: »

. the truth is the arbiter of what truth is however.

MOH

bebeman wrote: »

What bubble do you 2 live in?
10% of routes gone to Go Ahead ,the other 90% up for tender next year.

Which CIE will be able to apply for? So what.
That's not privatising them, that's opening the market to competition.

PeterParker957

frag420 wrote: »

Beats me that one!!!

fxotoole

bebeman wrote: »

What bubble do you 2 live in?
10% of routes gone to Go Ahead ,the other 90% up for tender next year.

That’s not privatisation. That’s tendering/contracting.

gooddarts10

Any news on the meetings today about the shorter working week and mentoring?

Colonel Claptrap

gooddarts10 wrote: »

Any news on the meetings today about the shorter working week and mentoring?

The meeting was cut short and everyone went home for the weekend.

:pac:

gooddarts10

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

The meeting was cut short and everyone went home for the weekend.

:pac:

Any reason for it being cut short?
I thought this was last chance saloon ( again )

Jamie2k9

gooddarts10 wrote: »

Any reason for it being cut short?
I thought this was last chance saloon ( again )

Perhaps the penny has dropped and there will be no negotiations until driver training is sorted out. Speaking of which, Labour Court should be due out soon.

gooddarts10

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Perhaps the penny has dropped and there will be no negotiations until driver training is sorted out. Speaking of which, Labour Court should be due out soon.

Was it not the LRC they were at today?

Jamie2k9

gooddarts10 wrote: »

Was it not the LRC they were at today?

No idea (only knew about it after reading here) but surly everything is off the table on both sides until the ruling from last month is due.

gooddarts10

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

No idea (only knew about it after reading here) but surly everything is off the table on both sides until the ruling from last month is due.

I know they were due back there today after last months wrc referral

gooddarts10

gooddarts10 wrote: »

I know they were due back there today after last months wrc referral

But sure they have been back in forth so many times I’ve lost track