dublin half marathon debacle

solidasarock

Jounral.ie did a story about the mess http://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-half-marathon-delays-3612486-Sep2017/


Also people who couldnt make it can get a free entry into a race series event next year. Good luck having people take advantage of that after this mess. (I guess thats why their offering it)

Someone took a photo of the 2 signs point to the starting line which sums up the event perfectly.

https://twitter.com/johnlync/status/911585180133019648

Murph_D

solidasarock wrote:

For a "Dublin CITY half marathon" to be set so far out of the City you are smelling manure half the race just makes me think they tried to save a little too much money on the venue. I would gladly pay a higher price for a better venue and more staff.

It's not the Dublin City Half Marathon, it's the Dublin Half Marathon, and has been for quite some time.

And what's wrong with the smell of manure? :rolleyes:

ooter

solidasarock wrote: »

Someone took a photo of the 2 signs point to the starting line which sums up the event perfectly.

https://twitter.com/johnlync/status/911585180133019648

Didn't see them signs but I obviously went to the left and took the long way around to get to the sub 1:40 start because the way I went I passed all the waves until I came to the start line, a simple marking on those signs or someone standing there directing people would've saved an awful lot of hassle.

tunney

Singer wrote: »

Huh? The roads that had traffic on them had cones separating them from the traffic and were totally fine to run on. Anything else would have been some limited local access, and other than a single race-related motorbike there was nothing on those roads when I was running.

When I was in the coned area the amount of runners simply didn't fit in the in lane and hence the spill over into the lane with traffic in it. Quite a bit too.

Nice time by the way!

The Muppet

Murph_D wrote: »

solidasarock wrote:

For a "Dublin CITY half marathon" to be set so far out of the City you are smelling manure half the race just makes me think they tried to save a little too much money on the venue. I would gladly pay a higher price for a better venue and more staff.

And what's wrong with the smell of manure? :rolleyes:

Exactly , sure you hardly even notice it after 50 years.:D

RedRunner

Something else to consider for the organisers. If you were unfortunate like me to have to drop out of the race due to injury, you were basically screwed. I had to pull out at four miles and had a long lonely walk back to New bridge house. Luckily I could walk or wasn't seriously injured because not one person stopped me to ask me if I was ok...except of course other runners. You can always rely on the runners!

Not a medic or medic vehicle in sight even when I passed the Garda tail vehicle.This is where phoenix park has a distinct advantage. You are always not too far from the start/finish area. I think on a course like this more care should be taken for runners who may end up stranded.

Caught one guy taking a shortcut too. Saw him later with a goody bag and medal...unbelievable.

Chivito550

Sounds absolutely Craggy Islandesqe. Regarding the traffic chaos, this is exactly what happens when a country shows such pure apathy towards the investment of proper public transport. We deserve farces like yesterday (not we as in runners, but we as in the greater population). We just don't have investment in infrastructure as a priority, and prefer taxes to be lowered. Politicians will only get off their arses and invest when they know their jobs are at stake if they don't.

Have a look at the proposed route of Metro North. It goes from Stephens Green to the airport, to Swords and finishes at Estuary. This should have been built years ago, and if it existed there would have been no issue getting out there to the race as you could jump on a frequent metro and get out there in 30 minutes from the city centre. No need for a car.

Birdsong

average_runner wrote:

On a bank holiday it costs that much but moving to a Sunday is cheaper as no overtime in it for the gardai

Not quite true; last time I was stewarding a race I was with a gaurd, who was telling me that races are stewarded by gaurds on Over Time. Not those who are rostered for work on the day.

This means that you can get guards who are not familiar with an area stewarding.

KJ

Whatever about the traffic getting in which took me forever, the lack of water stations as I don't tend to take much water during races and the poor stewarding at the finish line. The absolute worst thing for me was sitting in the car park for 2 hours trying to get out.

shesty

tunney wrote: »

Missed all those signs the last few weeks?

Saw this page on boards homepage...what signs?I drive from Rush via Lusk along the dual carraigeway to the M1 daily and (and back again) the first I heard of this race was Tuesday just gone.
As someone else said, the road from Rush to Skerries is closed right now and traffic (including dublin bus) is being routed over to the Skerries road, and through Lusk from that side.ie along the race route.It is, as Fingal keep saying, the 'official diversion route".Nobody bothered to put signs anywhere around the area about this race in advance.
There are a lot of people at fault here, and local people are annoyed about it too.

jcon1913

The Muppet wrote: »

I wasn't aware of that, the problem was always going to be from the slip road of M1 to Newbridge House, its just too narrow to cater for such a volume of traffic arriving at the same time.

I wonder was any consideration given to running shuttle buses from some of the park and ride facilities and Swords ?

You hit the nail on the head there.

Id suggest a venue either close to the Dart or Luas. How about somewhere close to the Red Cow which has decent public transport, easy for people from all direction to get to. I saw people from Northern Ireland, Wexford and Carlow at the race as wel as Dubs, and from Meath and Wicklow.

RayCun

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I don't believe the person who was interviewed for the Irish Times article who says he was 3km from Newbridge House at 7:45am and missed the start.

I left my home in Walkinstown before 7.30, aiming to be there for 8.10.:pac:
Passed the airport about 7.50ish. Passed Exit 3 on the M1 at about 7.55.
Spent over an hour at the sign saying "2k to Exit 4", most of that time not moving at all. (Poor fool that I am, I joined the left lane around exit 3 and stayed there. I didn't drive up the central lane and cut in further on, and I didn't drive up the hard shoulder)
Traffic started moving, a bit, around 9. Got to exit 3 after 9.30.
Was directed on to the dual carriageway to park, and jogged from there to the start line, getting there late.

RayCun

Some of the comments on facebook etc, though, about the organisers moving the race out of the park to make more money :rolleyes:

If anything, it looks like they caught themselves between two things
- they wanted to allow as many people as possible to run
- they didn't want to increase the cost of the race

If they didn't move the race out of the park, they'd have had to cap numbers at 8k or so, closing entries in July most likely.
At 20 quid a head, they couldn't afford more closed roads and a location with better transport links.

jcon1913

RayCun wrote: »

Some of the comments on facebook etc, though, about the organisers moving the race out of the park to make more money :rolleyes:

If anything, it looks like they caught themselves between two things
- they wanted to allow as many people as possible to run
- they didn't want to increase the cost of the race

If they didn't move the race out of the park, they'd have had to cap numbers at 8k or so, closing entries in July most likely.
At 20 quid a head, they couldn't afford more closed roads and a location with better transport links.

How about holding next year in an industrial estate e.g. Parkwest.
Good transport links
zero interference with the local traffic probably cheaper to close roads
Plenty of car parking

Djoucer

Because no one wants to run around an industrial park for 13 miles.

RayCun

jcon1913 wrote: »

How about holding next year in an industrial estate e.g. Parkwest.
Good transport links
zero interference with the local traffic probably cheaper to close roads
Plenty of car parking

Would be handy for me ...

There's a 10k out there, I know. At a guess, problems would be
some businesses would be open on Sunday
it's too small - that whole area, from Parkwest to Ballymount is smaller than Phoenix park

I'd say, having had their fingers badly burnt this year, it'll be back to the park next year anyway

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

Some of the comments on facebook etc, though, about the organisers moving the race out of the park to make more money :rolleyes:

If anything, it looks like they caught themselves between two things
- they wanted to allow as many people as possible to run
- they didn't want to increase the cost of the race

If they didn't move the race out of the park, they'd have had to cap numbers at 8k or so, closing entries in July most likely.
At 20 quid a head, they couldn't afford more closed roads and a location with better transport links.

Well the alternative plan was a disaster. Maybe they have to make a decision, put it back in the park or raise the cost by 10 euro and run it in a good location.

Feck it raise it by 15 euro and make it a proper city half marathon on a Sunday morning like most other cities outside Ireland.

splashthecash

I ran it and it was a colossal mess - I got in quick enough as I arrived early, but even as I was driving in I knew that this wasn't going to end well..

I cannot understand the following

1) Why they moved it from the Phoenix Park in the first place (something about health and safety I overheard)
2) How the team who have organised these races for years, would not have the foresight to see that one road in and out was going to lead to traffic chaos
3) Whatever about traffic congestion, there is no excuse for adequate water not being out on the route, that is not good enough on a half marathon length run. To confirm, there were actually 2 water stops missing, and one lucozade sport stop missing. How communication broke down that much is crazy.

IMO, there is nothing they can do to address the traffic issue for next year - shuttle buses wouldn't address it - would just lead to other traffic problems. Not a suitable place, end of.

RayCun

splashthecash wrote: »

3) Whatever about traffic congestion, there is no excuse for adequate water not being out on the route, that is not good enough on a half marathon length run. To confirm, there were actually 2 water stops missing, and one lucozade sport stop missing. How communication broke down that much is crazy.

Probably related to the traffic problems. People couldn't get in and out of the area with water, to set up, to staff the stations...

The Muppet

average_runner wrote: »

Well the alternative plan was a disaster. Maybe they have to make a decision, put it back in the park or raise the cost by 10 euro and run it in a good location.

Feck it raise it by 15 euro and make it a proper city half marathon on a Sunday morning like most other cities outside Ireland.

Saturdays course seems to have gone down well with those who ran. It may be possible to hold it on the same route with a bit of planning, ie shuttle busses from a location with parking or there is no shortage of fields off the dual carriageway just as you come off the M1 which could possibly be used as temporary car parks with some forward planning .

robinph

RayCun wrote: »

Probably related to the traffic problems. People couldn't get in and out of the area with water, to set up, to staff the stations...

Water stations shouldn't be getting stocked that late on the morning of the race. The lorry with the water on should have been and gone from wherever it needed to unload long before any competitors even got out of bed that morning. That is bad planning to have the water, and marshals, arriving at the same time as the competitors.

splashthecash

The Muppet wrote: »

Saturdays course seems to have gone down well with those who ran. It may be possible to hold it on the same route with a bit of planning, ie shuttle busses from a location with parking or there is no shortage of fields off the dual carriageway just as you come off the M1 which could possibly be used as temporary car parks with some forward planning .

I don't think that would work either, still have the situation of one way in and one way out, with or without shuttle buses - if it is on there next year, I won't be attending.

The Muppet

You wouldn't if the parking was off the dual carriage way. It's a short walk to the start line from there, no need to use newbridge house at all. That said cant see the locals looking too kindly on any race in the vicinity after saturday .

RayCun

The starting area seemed to be too narrow for the numbers too. My brother made it on time and he said it was very difficult to get near the front - and then the gardai on motorbikes had to come through the crowd to escort the wheelchairs.

jcon1913

Djoucer wrote: »

Because no one wants to run around an industrial park for 13 miles.

But they cant use Phonix Park - too small
Newbridge House - not accessible

and still ricky villa

RayCun wrote: »

The starting area seemed to be too narrow for the numbers too. My brother made it on time and he said it was very difficult to get near the front - and then the gardai on motorbikes had to come through the crowd to escort the wheelchairs.

Followed by the medic jeep which then decided it would be handier to reverse into a nearby gate than mill through the crowd so they'd be at the front. Good call

dublin runner

RayCun wrote:

If anything, it looks like they caught themselves between two things - they wanted to allow as many people as possible to run - they didn't want to increase the cost of the race

I'm not going to add to the complaints about the race. There is nothing more to add to the argument.

I would argue (without seeing costing) that increasing the entry price may be a good thing overall. More closed roads, bigger numbers and a bigger prize-fund etc. would surely help to make the race an even bigger success (discounting this year obviously) going forward. Having a low price is all well and good but the fee appears an outlier when compared to virtually ever other Irish half marathon.

*Asking to pay more money. A new one for me!

RayCun

yeah, if they put it up to 30 quid it would still be pretty cheap for a half.
and maybe they'd be able to afford some chocolate in the bag! :pac:

dublin runner

RayCun wrote:

yeah, if they put it up to 30 quid it would still be pretty cheap for a half. and maybe they'd be able to afford some chocolate in the bag!

Ha!

I believe making the race 30 to 35 euro would still make it excellent value. After all, much of the money raised goes to back into athletics (marathon mission, funding and supporting athletes etc.). Personally, I would be very happy to pay that price for a real Dublin City Half Marathon. Something like the first year of the RnR. It would also fantastic to see the race attracting some quality runners from abroad. That's just my thinking. Sometimes keeping the fee artificially low is all well and good but in the bigger picture, is it the best course to take?

Interesting debate if nothing else.

average_runner

dublin runner wrote: »

Ha!

I believe making the race 30 to 35 euro would still make it excellent value. After all, much of the money raised goes to back into athletics (marathon mission, funding and supporting athletes etc.). Personally, I would be very happy to pay that price for a real Dublin City Half Marathon. Something like the first year of the RnR. It would also fantastic to see the race attracting some quality runners from abroad. That's just my thinking. Sometimes keeping the fee artificially low is all well and good but in the bigger picture, is it the best course to take?

Interesting debate if nothing else.

Totally agree. A proper city half would be great.

tunney

RayCun wrote: »

The starting area seemed to be too narrow for the numbers too. My brother made it on time and he said it was very difficult to get near the front - and then the gardai on motorbikes had to come through the crowd to escort the wheelchairs.

I started near the front 20-30 metres back, and the amount of hand holders up the front on the narrow road. I LOVED the 2-3 metre drop off the right hand slide to a slimey few feet of water - if anyone had been pushed fallen, could have been nasty.

solidasarock

Some great segment names on Strava popping up for the course.

Rashers72

Just a thought. Why not charge an extra EUR5 and include free train from Dublin city calling at normal suburban stations from city, and also in from Drogheda. Plenty of empty trains sitting around on Saturday morning and afternoon. Each suburban train can hold approx. 1.500 passengers so 5 trains run 10 mins apart would have made a huge difference. Station is a couple of minutes walk from Newbridge House. God knows Irish Rail could do with a positive story, so win win. Or am I missing something?

Annie get your Run

Rashers72 wrote: »

Just a thought. Why not charge an extra EUR5 and include free train from Dublin city calling at normal suburban stations from city, and also in from Drogheda. Plenty of empty trains sitting around on Saturday morning and afternoon. Each suburban train can hold approx. 1.500 passengers so 5 trains run 10 mins apart would have made a huge difference. Station is a couple of minutes walk from Newbridge House. God knows Irish Rail could do with a positive story, so win win. Or am I missing something?

Indeed, Irish Rails capacity to run trains every 10 minutes for a start :P. Your idea is not a bad one, just not one that's highly unlikely to be possible given the limit on the number of trains allowed through (or originating) from Connolly in a 60 min period and you'd have to still allow the normal north & south bound darts to travel. TBH I think busses would be a better option, maybe one or two extra trains

I think the organisers should have been far more vocal and involved in how the participants were going to get there, for e.g listing bus and train times from various locations instead of just a general post saying 'use public transport'. Giving the distance from stations and stops to the start line so people would know exactly what was involved. Suggesting places for people to park n ride too.

The course itself seemed to be very popular, I'm not sure it was such a bad idea to move from the PP, it wouldn't take a huge amount of organisation and planning to do it right next year...

Seannew1

Bad organisation on Saturday alright. I think organisers underestimated the scale of the move to Newbridge house so very naaive of them. Overall, I don't want to stick the knife into them too much. I've done the race series in the past and in general, the organisation is solid. Hopefully they'll be back stronger next time.

Greybottle

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I think the organisers should have been far more vocal and involved in how the participants were going to get there, for e.g listing bus and train times from various locations instead of just a general post saying 'use public transport'. Giving the distance from stations and stops to the start line so people would know exactly what was involved. Suggesting places for people to park n ride too.

The course itself seemed to be very popular, I'm not sure it was such a bad idea to move from the PP, it wouldn't take a huge amount of organisation and planning to do it right next year...

The organisers did do this. On the race number that was posted out the times for the DART and Irish Rail services were listed. It's about a 1 Km walk from the station in Donabate to Newbridge House, but there were loads of people who could have taken the train who decided to take the car instead.

There were a number of organisational issues, but it's an excellent venue IMO, maybe they can learn from the mistakes of this year.

I think it should be mandatory that any event in Dublin that's within 30 minute walk of public transport should have free public transport included in the ticket price. It's standard practice in a lot of European cities, Dublin should follow.

average_runner wrote: »

Totally agree. A proper city half would be great.

Try this: https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/53.3491353,-6.2991666/53.3435818,-6.2848504/53.3429413,-6.2722271/53.3375604,-6.2651031/53.3396231,-6.2521641/53.3432103,-6.2589448/53.3524458,-6.2612836/53.3493263,-6.2698538/53.3526492,-6.3006733/53.3561266,-6.3159753/@53.356882,-6.3117978,13.5z/data=!4m42!4m41!1m0!1m0!1m0!1m5!3m4!1m2!1d-6.257405!2d53.3363643!3s0x48670e98c1c9c41f:0xa92f2999b790e655!1m0!1m0!1m0!1m15!3m4!1m2!1d-6.276875!2d53.3477544!3s0x48670c2ed0842d4f:0xcd097d1f25b8549f!3m4!1m2!1d-6.2781907!2d53.3496714!3s0x48670c2e9f3455ab:0xd7138abb4126299c!3m4!1m2!1d-6.2896591!2d53.3495801!3s0x48670c33fcd99dd9:0x8c0c6ef1633d8684!1m10!3m4!1m2!1d-6.3037383!2d53.3569276!3s0x48670db4f0a44245:0x2038c59f60755eeb!3m4!1m2!1d-6.3116575!2d53.3609062!3s0x48670dae3bb2f0bd:0x256d40d8b28f934b!1m0!3e2

Covers most of the major sights and parks in the city. Start and finish in the Phoenix Park, so plenty of space for parking and after race events.

Starting at 9.00 the last walkers would clear O'Connell Bridge/Abbey St. within an hour and 15 minutes, so little disruption to Luas lines and Bus traffic. Run it on a Sunday like the 1916-2016 5 KM run last year and it could be a big success.

DCC and other groups could use it as a campaign over the summer months to get fit to do it. 21.2 Km is a very reachable target for everybody. It could become a mass event like the Womens Mini Marathon.

Van.Bosch

100% agree with price increase with a real city centre route. Considering the south side nature of the DCM a route starting in the city and heading out via clontarf or Marino or Drumcondra and back into town would work.

The RnR gets a lot of criticism as it's a for profit event but they manage to make a city centre race work for about 6 or 7 miles with the rest in the PP. I'd like to see something similar for the race series. You even use the PP as a staging area?

aoboa

There was only 1 train from the city centre that would get you there in time.
No matter what way you divide 1 train into 10000 people it wasnt going to work.
I dont think there is any way to make that venue work and they'd be nuts to try again.

robinph

When you hold a big event on the outskirts of a city you are always going to have problems with people getting there and the main option for the majority of people will be to drive. Public transport systems are designed to get people from the suburbs into the centre, not from suburbs on one side to the other. Wouldn't really make a lot of difference having more trains from the centre as most people don't live there.

sideswipe

One of the best things about Saturday has been the comments on social media- my favourite so far was 'why can't these stupid events be held at night when it won't affect the public'.

Hannibal_Smith

sideswipe wrote: »

One of the best things about Saturday has been the comments on social media- my favourite so far was 'why can't these stupid events be held at night when it won't affect the public'.

The best one I read was something like...when I run I run alone...I don't understand those who have to pay money to pin a number to their top and run in a herd... :pac:

Pawwed Rig

Greybottle wrote: »

but there were loads of people who could have taken the train who decided to take the car instead.

Would all of these people have fitted on the single 3 carriage train that headed north that morning jammed with runners?

average_runner

Van.Bosch wrote: »

100% agree with price increase with a real city centre route. Considering the south side nature of the DCM a route starting in the city and heading out via clontarf or Marino or Drumcondra and back into town would work.

The RnR gets a lot of criticism as it's a for profit event but they manage to make a city centre race work for about 6 or 7 miles with the rest in the PP. I'd like to see something similar for the race series. You even use the PP as a staging area?

Clontarf too open to the wind as is the RnR.
Like to keep it out of the park and put a fast course around the city instead.

marzabar

Got my offer of a free race in next year's series after emailing with my "observations" of what went wrong. The traffic in and water were my biggest issues but also walking the 3/4km back to my abandoned car on the dual carriageway felt quite dangerous on the way out!

I also received confirmation of what happened with the water stops!

"As you can see from our site, we had planned 4 water stations and one Lucozade stations.
The water and Lucozade trucks got diverted due to the traffic and when they arrived on site we realised the quantities we had ordered had not been delivered.
At that stage it was too late to get more water to the venue"

Hopefully next year will be better anyway!

hot buttered scones

average_runner wrote: »

Clontarf too open to the wind as is the RnR.
Like to keep it out of the park and put a fast course around the city instead.

My guess is if they were able to get the road closures for a city race they'd surely have done so by now. But because I like messing around with maps - You could start in Fairview Park, then down to the Point, along the North Quays as far as Chapelizod, then back along the South Quays to Fairview Park. Or, same start down to the point, but then where the canal meets the river head all the way round the North Circular, cross at Islandbridge and follow the canal all the way to Samuel Beckett bridge and back up past the Point to Fairview Park to finish.

Birdie Num Num

Rashers72 wrote: »

Just a thought. Why not charge an extra EUR5 and include free train from Dublin city calling at normal suburban stations from city, and also in from Drogheda. Plenty of empty trains sitting around on Saturday morning and afternoon. Each suburban train can hold approx. 1.500 passengers so 5 trains run 10 mins apart would have made a huge difference. Station is a couple of minutes walk from Newbridge House. God knows Irish Rail could do with a positive story, so win win. Or am I missing something?

Now there's a thought! I have always wondered why this never seems to be an obvious solution in many cases. It's happened in other big cities in other countries, your Olympic ticket also gets you onto the train for example at some games. Throughout the GAA Championship, throughout the summer and every year, Drumcondra station gates have to be left open because of the crowds. I don't believe the GAA pays a supplement to Irish Rail, maybe they do but at any rate 1,000s I guess travel free! You'd think the Minister for sport who also happens to be the Minister for transport would have his finger on the pulse here.

In terms of a location for staging a race, it's not quite that simple in terms of picking a venue. It's not actually just down to choosing the most favourable and the most obvious best choice. That would be easy. There are many other factors that are out of the control of event organisers and many organisations that will want their say.

rooneyjm

I feel Irish people have become a shower of soft moaners. It was badly planned, granted, but the Tsunami of whinging is too much.
People will not get a train because they want to sit in their nice warm car, have a coffee, rock up 10min before the start. Since when are two bottles of water and refreshments at the end not enough for a half marathon. People pretending they were at deaths door in 17 degrees, I mean fcuk off.
People on FB giving out about a lack of jax roll, own your own sh1t, literally.
"I didn't get a banana", really how terrible, stop bitching and have an apple.

Chivito550

Rashers72 wrote: »

Just a thought. Why not charge an extra EUR5 and include free train from Dublin city calling at normal suburban stations from city, and also in from Drogheda. Plenty of empty trains sitting around on Saturday morning and afternoon. Each suburban train can hold approx. 1.500 passengers so 5 trains run 10 mins apart would have made a huge difference. Station is a couple of minutes walk from Newbridge House. God knows Irish Rail could do with a positive story, so win win. Or am I missing something?

This is Ireland. People would still choose to drive. You can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

Only proper metro, light rail or frequent heavy rail (S-Bahn type stuff) will get people out of their cars. Crappy diesel trains that go every 45 mins wont.

Chivito550

robinph wrote: »

When you hold a big event on the outskirts of a city you are always going to have problems with people getting there and the main option for the majority of people will be to drive. Public transport systems are designed to get people from the suburbs into the centre, not from suburbs on one side to the other. Wouldn't really make a lot of difference having more trains from the centre as most people don't live there.

Disagree with this. If a system is properly integrated then you've no problem getting to anywhere from anywhere. It's like that on the continent. London likewise. Sure in Moscow they have a circle line that goes around the outskirts of the city so you don't even have to go near the city centre. This "An Lár-ism" we have in Dublin is not standard practice in cities that know what they are doing.

robinph

Chivito550 wrote: »

robinph wrote: »

When you hold a big event on the outskirts of a city you are always going to have problems with people getting there and the main option for the majority of people will be to drive. Public transport systems are designed to get people from the suburbs into the centre, not from suburbs on one side to the other. Wouldn't really make a lot of difference having more trains from the centre as most people don't live there.

Disagree with this. If a system is properly integrated then you've no problem getting to anywhere from anywhere. It's like that on the continent. London likewise. Sure in Moscow they have a circle line that goes around the outskirts of the city so you don't even have to go near the city centre. This "An Lár-ism" we have in Dublin is not standard practice in cities that know what they are doing.

You can't really compare Dublin to London though, other than they both happen to be capital cities. It's also taken 100+ years for London to get the system it has, and it's still not got a whole lot connected to the south of the Thames. Dublin only started building tram lines 15 years or so ago and has a long way to go, it's also only a tiny fraction of the size.