Time to ditch the Irish language and change the National Anthem?

25-09-2017 9:19am #1

With the Irish population having nearly a quarter of its population not even born in Ireland is it time we asked ourselves, "Is It time to drop the Irish Language and change the words of the National Anthem?"

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http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/population/2017/Chapter_5_Diversity.pdf

It's long been the view of the Irish government and other groups to see the population of Ireland to get above 10 million,

LAST WEEK, IBEC chief executive Danny McCoy warned that the island of Ireland needs to be ready to have a population of 10 million by 2050.

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-population-1972445-Mar2015/

Naturally, to get to this figure by 2050 it won't be coming from citizens born in the country and already we can see from the CSO immigration figures how they plan to reach close to this figure, importing and inviting migrants to this country.

To maximise integration we need to be asking ourselves does the language of Ireland and even our national anthem represent the New Ireland that we are seeing?

From the CSO figures, we can see many of those coming to live here are keeping alive their own language whilst using English as the universal language to communicate with others. Irish has very little place amongst the new Irish communities and is fast falling down the pecking order in languages spoken by the Irish community. Is there a place for Irish in the new Ireland? Is it a language we should be spending money on when many of the new Irish are struggling to adapt to a new culture and English Language? Should we not be investing on more English in classrooms and maximising English as our language?

There is also the issue of our national anthem, again this is sung in Irish and if you ask most people especially those who are "New" Irish wouldn't have a clue what is actually being sung.

As our population increases is there any point in singing the anthem in Irish, would it not be better to sing it in English so that all the Irish can feel represented by their national anthem and able to sing along with it?

keith_sixteen · 25-09-2017 9:23am

Yawn

goingnowhere · 25-09-2017 9:24am

The national anthem was actually written in english in the first place...

WesternZulu · 25-09-2017 9:24am

Can we ditch Ireland's Call while we're at it?

steddyeddy · 25-09-2017 9:25am

Yea! Time to ditch all languages and cultural distinctions until we have all the homogenety of a typical Brexit voter. Being different to England doesn't work!

5rtytry56 · 25-09-2017 9:27am

Ditch the Irish Language:

What will the parents of Nollaig & Sláinie who attend the Gaelscoileanna think!

Ditch the National Anthem:

A certain melody is always played before the start of every half serious hurley or gaelic football team.

jacksie66 · 25-09-2017 9:28am

This post has been deleted.

25-09-2017 9:28am

goingnowhere wrote: »

The national anthem was actually written in english in the first place...

Surely then its time to revert, what good is it having a national anthem that at least quarter of the population cant sing or understand?

25-09-2017 9:29am

jacksie66 wrote: »

So by your logic we should get rid of all Irish things because a percentage of our population isn't Irish...

What is the point of spending millions on a language that most of the country does not speak, nearly 1 million citizens have never learned, and a national anthem that most cant sing or understand?

uck51js9zml2yt · 25-09-2017 9:32am

Only one real solution to this.....get rid of the foreigners..... except my wife :eek:

Jawgap · 25-09-2017 9:34am

Ditch compulsory Irish and plough the resources into teaching STEM?

Ridiculous idea......where's the European Commission going to get its Irish translators/interpreters from?

The anthem? It's a bit of a dirge, but aren't most? Plus keep Ireland's Call.....it makes Amhrán na bhFiann sound much better in comparison!!

Finally, bring back playing Amhrán na bhFiann at the end of the disco!!!

25-09-2017 9:35am

Gia Itchy Surfing wrote: »

Only one real solution to this.....get rid of the foreigners..... except my wife :eek:

Not really an option! lol

By 2050, however, those who can consider themselves historically Irish will most likely be in a minority, based on current immigration rates and targets.

It seems incredibly naive and stupid to be holding onto things we consider Irish that will not represent the majority of the population.

It's not about losing our culture but modernising it and appreciating like most countries, the world has moved on and things change.

It's not as if the English are desperately trying to hold onto Shakesperian English!

25-09-2017 9:35am

Fields of Athenry would make a much better national Anthem.

bear1 · 25-09-2017 9:36am

What a stupid thread.

25-09-2017 9:38am

bear1 wrote: »

What a stupid thread.

How so?

We have a population that has nearly a quarter of it not being able to understand our national anthem, how does this unite us as Irish people?

Jawgap · 25-09-2017 9:40am

Deleted User wrote: »

Fields of Athenry would make a much better national Anthem.

I always liked O'Riada's Míse Eire - much more evocative!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6tb4Lps1ag

Nettle Soup · 25-09-2017 9:41am

The Irish language is becoming an exceptional waste of money and effort.
I don't know why our politicians pander to the Irish language Nazis (and I am from Galway).
A few years ago they ripped down perfectly good green signs with "Barna" written on them in other to replace them with white signs showing "Bearna" instead. Stupidity of the highest order.

I don't care about changing the national anthem to be honest.

bear1 · 25-09-2017 9:41am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How so?

We have a population that has nearly a quarter of it not being able to understand our national anthem, how does this unite us as Irish people?

Are you really suggesting that we ditch our primary language and anthem because 1 million people can't speak it?
There are people on this island who don't see English as their first language but according to you they should just adapt..
So yeah it's a stupid thread.

o1s1n · 25-09-2017 9:41am

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not as if the English are desperately trying to hold onto Shakesperian English!

Tell that to students studying Shakespeare in school.

I'd be of the opinion that people applying for citizenship should be able to speak some level of Irish, would love to see it made part of the naturalisation process.

seamus · 25-09-2017 9:42am

It doesn't logically follow that a more varied population obligates either of these things.

Yes, I think the compulsion to learn Irish should be ditched in secondary school, at least. The entire way it's taught needs an overhaul. Most children leave primary school having been learning Irish for 8 years and couldn't hold a simple conversation in it. That's a spectacular failure for any language curriculum. Continuing to do it this way is just a massive waste of everyone's time. If they can't figure out how to improve fluency amonst children, then they should consider dropping it in favour of another language.

But that's how I'd feel about Irish regardless of the demographics of the country.

The anthem I've no strong feelings on, but it's a bit of an anachronism. A bit "Grr, we're Irish and we fight for our freedom!". So it's pretty out of date. Something that's more upbeat and inspiring like Ireland's Call would be better. It's imbues a sense of community and belonging. But like I say, I've no particularly strong feelings about it.

25-09-2017 9:46am

bear1 wrote: »

Are you really suggesting that we ditch our primary language and anthem because 1 million people can't speak it?
There are people on this island who don't see English as their first language but according to you they should just adapt..
So yeah it's a stupid thread.

Yes 1 million citizens cant even understand our national anthem, not to mention the countless born in this country who can't and won't speak Irish nor understand or able to sing our national anthem.

It's really pathetic that a country is so split when it comes to language and anthem.

Look at this site, primarily English, every Irish website is primarily English.

What is the point in Irish?

As our population grows and more and more people come to live here, Irish becomes even more pointless. Its time to unite all Irish under 1 common spoken language and national anthem that we can all share.

cdeb · 25-09-2017 9:46am

Given most national anthems are about how we're going to kill our neighbours because they killed us and started it in the first place - and ours is no different really - I've always thought it a good thing that we can't understand our anthem.

25-09-2017 9:46am

o1s1n wrote: »

Tell that to students studying Shakespeare in school.

I'd be of the opinion that people applying for citizenship should be able to speak some level of Irish, would love to see it made part of the naturalisation process.

Nothing wrong with having it as a historical context, that is how it should be considered and used.

Alf Veedersane · 25-09-2017 9:47am

I'd like to nominate 'Put 'Em Under Pressure'.

Jawgap · 25-09-2017 9:48am

o1s1n wrote: »

Tell that to students studying Shakespeare in school.

I'd be of the opinion that people applying for citizenship should be able to speak some level of Irish, would love to see it made part of the naturalisation process.

Why?

It's of no practical value whatsoever.

I love the language, I speak it.....but I only developed a love it about 15 years ago when I needed to learn it for a job and I ended up with a "teacher" who was more concerned about teaching it as a living language without getting hung up on grammar, syntax and tenses. Much more enjoyable.

Generations of compulsory language education have got us where? Better to make it optional and have a vibrant cohort of speakers who genuinely love the language rather than a greater mass who resent having it rammed down their throat.

Ralf and Florian · 25-09-2017 9:51am

Deleted User wrote: »

With the Irish population having nearly a quarter of its population not even born in Ireland is it time we asked ourselves, "Is It time to drop the Irish Language and change the words of the National Anthem?"

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/population/2017/Chapter_5_Diversity.pdf

It's long been the view of the Irish government and other groups to see the population of Ireland to get above 10 million,

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-population-1972445-Mar2015/

Naturally, to get to this figure by 2050 it won't be coming from citizens born in the country and already we can see from the CSO immigration figures how they plan to reach close to this figure, importing and inviting migrants to this country.

To maximise integration we need to be asking ourselves does the language of Ireland and even our national anthem represent the New Ireland that we are seeing?

From the CSO figures, we can see many of those coming to live here are keeping alive their own language whilst using English as the universal language to communicate with others. Irish has very little place amongst the new Irish communities and is fast falling down the pecking order in languages spoken by the Irish community. Is there a place for Irish in the new Ireland? Is it a language we should be spending money on when many of the new Irish are struggling to adapt to a new culture and English Language? Should we not be investing on more English in classrooms and maximising English as our language?

There is also the issue of our national anthem, again this is sung in Irish and if you ask most people especially those who are "New" Irish wouldn't have a clue what is actually being sung.

As our population increases is there any point in singing the anthem in Irish, would it not be better to sing it in English so that all the Irish can feel represented by their national anthem and able to sing along with it?

Should the Germans ditch their national anthem and switch to Arabic because of all the Syrians that arrived in the last couple of years? Or maybe they should switch to Turkish?

Jawgap · 25-09-2017 9:53am

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing wrong with having it as a historical context, that is how it should be considered and used.

I think people overlook how much Shakespearean English and idiom is actually used in everyday communications.

For example, that form of communication so beloved of boards.ie - the rant.....rant is a Shakespearean word

25-09-2017 9:53am

Ralf and Florian wrote: »

Should the Germans ditch their national anthem and switch to Arabic because of all the Syrians that arrived in the last couple of years? Or maybe they can switch to Turkish?

In fairness to Germany, they already have a population that speaks German as their first and only language.

Also, the 1 million immigrants in Germany is about 1% of their population, Ireland has a quarter of its population not even born here, how many others don't speak Irish who were born here?

It will be far easier for Germany to teach 1 million Refugees, German, than it will be for Ireland to teach a quarter of its population Irish when the majority of its population don't speak Irish, to begin with.

Ralf and Florian · 25-09-2017 9:54am

seamus wrote: »

It doesn't logically follow that a more varied population obligates either of these things.

Yes, I think the compulsion to learn Irish should be ditched in secondary school, at least. The entire way it's taught needs an overhaul. Most children leave primary school having been learning Irish for 8 years and couldn't hold a simple conversation in it. That's a spectacular failure for any language curriculum. Continuing to do it this way is just a massive waste of everyone's time. If they can't figure out how to improve fluency amonst children, then they should consider dropping it in favour of another language.

But that's how I'd feel about Irish regardless of the demographics of the country.

The anthem I've no strong feelings on, but it's a bit of an anachronism. A bit "Grr, we're Irish and we fight for our freedom!". So it's pretty out of date. Something that's more upbeat and inspiring like Ireland's Call would be better. It's imbues a sense of community and belonging. But like I say, I've no particularly strong feelings about it.

What about You Lift Me Up, Wagon Wheel, or Galway Girl?

osarusan · 25-09-2017 9:56am

If we want to keep the Irish language alive, we need to teach it in school. We also need to teach it much much better.

And we know how to do this - we already do it with the other languages taught, like French and German, albeit that teaching starts later. The teaching of Irish has improved in recent years too in fairness.

However, the fact that Irish has no real presence and consequently no value in the world that a primary school age kid inhabits will always mean that acquisition is limited.

25-09-2017 9:58am

osarusan wrote: »

If we want to keep the Irish language alive, we need to teach it in school. We also need to teach it much much better.

And we know how to do this - we already do it with the other languages taught, like French and German, albeit that teaching starts later. The teaching of Irish has improved in recent years too in fairness.

However, the fact that Irish has no real presence and consequently no value in the world that a primary school age kid inhabits will always mean that acquisition is limited.

Who wants to keep the language alive?

Its only politicians and Irish speaking communities who are pushing it, as it is every person born in Ireland is taught, Irish. Its quite clear the majority do not wish to continue with Irish after leaving school, thus the majority of the country does not want Irish.

Dravokivich · 25-09-2017 10:00am

o1s1n wrote: »

Tell that to students studying Shakespeare in school.

I'd be of the opinion that people applying for citizenship should be able to speak some level of Irish, would love to see it made part of the naturalisation process.

The main concern with language should be the ability to communicate. Why look to get this as a part of naturalisation, if they won't be able to communicate with anyone from here?

25-09-2017 10:02am

Dravokivich wrote: »

The main concern with language should be the ability to communicate. Why look to get this as a part of naturalisation, if they won't be able to communicate with anyone from here?

It would also be pointless when we have open borders amongst the EU, European citizens can live in any European country without having to learn the native language.

The only difference is that Europe all speaks English as a second language.

25-09-2017 10:10am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Who wants to keep the language alive?

Its only politicians and Irish speaking communities who are pushing it, as it is every person born in Ireland is taught, Irish. Its quite clear the majority do not wish to continue with Irish after leaving school, thus the majority of the country does not want Irish.

17.3% of those resident during the last census were born abroad.

That’s not ‘almost a quarter’. Gross exaggeration.

Of that 17.3%, most are not Irish citizens, so I doubt they give two fecks about the Irish language one way or the other.

As for you, I’m guessing you can’t read/write/speak Irish and simply don’t see the point of it. Fair enough.

But speak for yourself. ‘It’s quite clear....majority don’t want....blah blah’ is just old hat at this stage. Tens of thousands speak Irish on a daily basis. Good enough for me.

Nettle Soup · 25-09-2017 10:10am

osarusan wrote: »

If we want to keep the Irish language alive, we need to teach it in school. We also need to teach it much much better.

And we know how to do this - we already do it with the other languages taught, like French and German, albeit that teaching starts later. The teaching of Irish has improved in recent years too in fairness.

However, the fact that Irish has no real presence and consequently no value in the world that a primary school age kid inhabits will always mean that acquisition is limited.

Gaelscoils were setup to improve the teaching of Irish but many parents, with no interest in Irish, took advantage of them to keep their kids away from immigrants.

darkdubh · 25-09-2017 10:10am

Jawgap wrote: »

I always liked O'Riada's Míse Eire - much more evocative!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6tb4Lps1ag

Good call, that would be my choice too.

Nettle Soup · 25-09-2017 10:11am

Deleted User wrote: »

Who wants to keep the language alive?

Its only politicians and Irish speaking communities who are pushing it, as it is every person born in Ireland is taught, Irish. Its quite clear the majority do not wish to continue with Irish after leaving school, thus the majority of the country does not want Irish.

Translators also make great money translating leaflets and legals that nobody will read.
Huge waste of money that would be better spent on Irish sports.

whisky_galore · 25-09-2017 10:12am

Nettle Soup wrote: »

The Irish language is becoming an exceptional waste of money and effort.
I don't know why our politicians pander to the Irish language Nazis (and I am from Galway).
A few years ago they ripped down perfectly good green signs with "Barna" written on them in other to replace them with white signs showing "Bearna" instead. Stupidity of the highest order.

I don't care about changing the national anthem to be honest.

I don't see the point of stripping Gaeltachts (and some so-called Gaeltachts) perfectly good bilingual road signs and replacing with Irish-only ones...see Dingle debacle of a few years ago.

Marking fuel filler locations on some Bus Eireann buses in Irish is another example of worthless use of the language.

The anthem can stay as it is. It beats that Ireland's Call crap any day of the week.

25-09-2017 10:15am

JayZeus wrote: »

17.3% of those resident during the last census were born abroad.

That’s not ‘almost a quarter’. Gross exaggeration.

Of that 17.3%, most are not Irish citizens, so I doubt they give two fecks about the Irish language one way or the other.

As for you, I’m guessing you can’t read/write/speak Irish and simply don’t see the point of it. Fair enough.

But speak for yourself. ‘It’s quite clear....majority don’t want....blah blah’ is just old hat at this stage. Tens of thousands speak Irish on a daily basis. Good enough for me.

17.3 is a very significant number.

They are all Irish residents.

This is just the number born outside of Ireland, you then have the number of citizens born in Ireland to foreign-born parents who have no attachment to the language or culture.

One in four children in Ireland are born to a non-Irish mother
http://www.thejournal.ie/poverty-children-ireland-immigrant-non-irish-1599272-Aug2014/

So we can easily get close to a quarter of the population.

This then moves onto the population in general, the majority of Ireland has no use for the Irish language and most cannot sing or understand what our national anthem is even about.

gramar · 25-09-2017 10:18am

Deleted User wrote: »

How so?

We have a population that has nearly a quarter of it not being able to understand our national anthem, how does this unite us as Irish people?

They should fcuking learn what it means then.

Nettle Soup · 25-09-2017 10:20am

gramar wrote: »

They should fcuking learn what it means then.

25-09-2017 10:20am

gramar wrote: »

They should fcuking learn what it means then.

Why? The majority of those born in Ireland don't know what it means, why force the new Irish to learn something the old Irish abandoned themselves?

Would it not be better to just sing the thing in English?

bear1 · 25-09-2017 10:23am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In fairness to Germany, they already have a population that speaks German as their first and only language.

Also, the 1 million immigrants in Germany is about 1% of their population, Ireland has a quarter of its population not even born here, how many others don't speak Irish who were born here?

It will be far easier for Germany to teach 1 million Refugees, German, than it will be for Ireland to teach a quarter of its population Irish when the majority of its population don't speak Irish, to begin with.

You love this 1 million craic.
Can you back up those claims of the 1 million for both Ireland and Germany?
Also.. last time I checked Germany didn't have 100 million citizens..

gramar · 25-09-2017 10:24am

Deleted User wrote: »

Why? The majority of those born in Ireland don't know what it means, why force the new Irish to learn something the old Irish abandoned themselves?

Would it not be better to just sing the thing in English?

Sure why bother your bollocks singing it at all? Save offending or excluding anyone. Throw in times for GAA games could be 3.25 instead of 3.30.

bear1 · 25-09-2017 10:24am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

17.3 is a very significant number.

They are all Irish residents.

This is just the number born outside of Ireland, you then have the number of citizens born in Ireland to foreign-born parents who have no attachment to the language or culture.

One in four children in Ireland are born to a non-Irish mother
http://www.thejournal.ie/poverty-children-ireland-immigrant-non-irish-1599272-Aug2014/

So we can easily get close to a quarter of the population.

This then moves onto the population in general, the majority of Ireland has no use for the Irish language and most cannot sing or understand what our national anthem is even about.

You should apply for a job with the Independent.
It's great how you seem to be talking for everyone.

25-09-2017 10:27am

bear1 wrote: »

You love this 1 million craic.
Can you back up those claims of the 1 million for both Ireland and Germany?
Also.. last time I checked Germany didn't have 100 million citizens..

The Census recorded 535,475 non-Irish nationals living in the country, a 1.6% decrease on the previous census figure in 2011 of 544,357.

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/rel..._Diversity.pdf

Number of dual Irish citizens living here up by almost 90% over five years

OVER THE PAST five years, the number of people in living Ireland holding dual-citizenship (Irish and another country) has increased by 87.4% to 104,784 persons.
http://www.thejournal.ie/census-citizenship-3609382-Sep2017/

Germany 'spent more than €20bn on refugees in 2016' as crisis outstrips state budgets

The four states recorded have taken around a third of asylum seekers currently living in Germany, where more than a million have arrived since the start of the refugee crisis in 2015.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-refugees-spend-20-billion-euros-2016-angela-merkel-crisis-budgets-middle-east-north-africa-a7623466.html

German Population

82.67 million

https://www.google.ie/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:DEU:FRA:GBR&hl=en&dl=en

bear1 · 25-09-2017 10:29am

I think you need to take a look at your figures again.
And do you know the difference between 1% of 100 million and 1% of 82 million?

25-09-2017 10:30am

bear1 wrote: »

You should apply for a job with the Independent.
It's great how you seem to be talking for everyone.

Its that the best you have to offer?

You want proof the majority don't want Irish?

What is the primary language of television in Ireland?

What are the viewer ratings for TG4 compared to RTE1?

What is the primary language of Irish media sites and newspapers?

What is the primary language you hear spoken day to day in Ireland?

What language are you conversing in right now?

bear1 · 25-09-2017 10:31am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Its that the best you have to offer?

You want proof the majority don't want Irish?

What is the primary language of television in Ireland?

What are the viewer ratings for TG4 compared to RTE1?

What is the primary language of Irish media sites and newspapers?

What is the primary language you hear spoken day to day in Ireland?

What language are you conversing in right now?

So my answers to this means I represent the entire island?

25-09-2017 10:32am

bear1 wrote: »

I think you need to take a look at your figures again.
And do you know the difference between 1% of 100 million and 1% of 82 million?

OK, 1.219%

Either way 1 million into a population of 82 Million does not change much,

1 million plus, into a population of 4.5 million is a very significant change.

25-09-2017 10:33am

bear1 wrote: »

So my answers to this means I represent the entire island?

Do you think the majority of Ireland speaks Irish or English?

Time to ditch the Irish language and change the National Anthem?

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