How a new standard in ethics and integrity could change Ireland

realitykeeper

When a high ranking official is replaced in controversial circumstances in Ireland, there is a tendency to look overseas.

In the breath test scandal, rank and file Gardaí must be held 100% to blame while the commissioner (although blameless) could not be trusted to fix the problem because she was once part of the rank and file. Hence the need to look for a senior police official from another jurisdiction to replace her.

Similarly, following the banking crisis, a foreign governor was sought for the central bank. There are numerous other state organizations and semi-state bodies with foreigners at the helm because they were not corrupted by the organization they were recruited to sort out.

Sadly, such measures are warranted.

Another feature reaction to under performance and scandals in state organizations is to re-brand the scandalized organization in question. This happened with FÁS a few years ago.

Unlike the policy of recruiting people from outside the jurisdiction, re-branding has no practical purpose other than to divert the heat from politicians. It is expensive and it does nothing to change the organization itself but only people`s perception of it.

So, there we have it. A sad measure and a useless one.

There is however something that can be done which is effective to prevent scandals, and incompetence in state run organizations. The solution is honest integrity and a good grounding in morals and ethics. Irish morals may be different to the morals of less corrupt countries that could be what is at the heart of the problem.

In the German story of the Pied Piper, the reason the villagers refused to pay what was agreed, was because they were poor people. They argued that they could have eradicated the rats just as easily if only they had known how. They might well have said why give this capitalist piper all our money when there are children going hungry in the village and so on.

This type of morality is common enough in Ireland. The Piper had a different morality. He believed a deal was a deal, just as in the Gospel at yesterday`s mass (the workers in the vineyard).

If the Irish were to adopt the type of morality that requires things like honesty, the repayment of debt, the benefits of hard work over things like gambling and so on, then the country could produce the type of organizations and individuals who are worthy of the taxpayers euro.

Otherwise, just privatize everything. Am I wrong?

Peregrinus

realitykeeper wrote: »

. . . If the Irish were to adopt the type of morality that requires things like honesty, the repayment of debt, the benefits of hard work over things like gambling and so on, then the country could produce the type of organizations and individuals who are worthy of the taxpayers euro.

Otherwise, just privatize everything. Am I wrong?

Of course you're wrong. If the underlying problem is the morality prevalent in Ireland, privatising everything is the worst thing you could do, since you'd be handing everything over to a bunch of people whom you believe to be operating with a problematic morality, and you'd lose whatever controls or constraints on that come from having the business run by the state, with the associated degree of public scrutiny and accountability. That may not be very much in the way of controls or constraints, but it's certainly more than you get in privately-run businesses owned and run by people who you believe to be immoral.

Pat Mustard

realitykeeper wrote: »

Otherwise, just privatize everything. Am I wrong?

There are success stories within the public service in Ireland.

An Garda Siochána has its flaws and is not one of those success stories.

However, the Property Registration Authority and the Revenue Commissioners have been among the success stories.

Properly overhauling the various aspects of public service with regard to customer service, value for money, performance, etc. would be worth a go before relinquishing state control through privatization.

realitykeeper

Coming back to the issue at hand, i.e. adopting ethics and the right type of morality in this country. Does anyone have a view on that? Perhaps I was being unfair for singling out one sector in society when society as a whole could benefit.

Are questionable values being instilled in children at home and at pre-school and primary level? I dread to think of the effect some parents are having on their children and even in schools, do the teachers have the kind of ethics and morality that would benefit children or could it be that they are in fact doing damage through their behavior, and skewed ethics and morality?

Teachers like other public servant people have a perceived vested interest in voting for leftist parties. A person of integrity would understand that this perception is wrong. My concern is that Irish teachers lack that integrity. This is just an example though. Irish society in general seem to be morally challenged in my opinion. Just because Irish society in general passes through the Irish education system does not mean all the blame should necessarily fall on the teachers because they too were educated by teachers in the Irish education system so the problem is one for all of society and not just the education system.

Besides, most of the population are finished their formal education so the issue with their questionable morality and ethics require attention beyond the education system. After all, 150% more fake breath tests than real tests could hardly be the work of a minority of front line Gardaí.

When I was in Rwanda last year, public posters were used to remind people of the importance of integrity. Can Ireland`s adult population be redeemed? If so, how?

Pat Mustard

realitykeeper wrote: »

My concern is that Irish teachers lack that integrity. This is just an example though.

On what basis does this concern arise?

realitykeeper

Pat Mustard wrote: »

On what basis does this concern arise?

I live in this country. I see how people behave and the kind of discourse that pervades in this society generally. Irish teachers are part of that. Also, when you look at the state of the country in a holistic way, is it something to be proud of?

I mentioned the Pied Piper of Hamelin. Ireland has a lot of debt. Will we as a people have the integrity to pay this debt even if interest rates rise and the economy contracts?

Pat Mustard

That reply does not answer the question.

Do you have some evidence which causes you to question the integrity of teachers in this country?

realitykeeper

Pat Mustard wrote: »

That reply does not answer the question.

Do you have some evidence which causes you to question the integrity of teachers in this country?

I am questioning the integrity of society in general and teachers are part of society. Do you have evidence that teachers are outside of society?

Pat Mustard

realitykeeper wrote: »

Do you have evidence that teachers are outside of society?

This question is an irrelevant deflection away from the question that I asked you.

What you appear to be saying is that society lacks integrity, therefore teachers lack integrity. A thin argument, and a logical fallacy at that.

Is that all you have?

realitykeeper

Pat Mustard wrote: »

This question is an irrelevant deflection away from the question that I asked you.

What you appear to be saying is that society lacks integrity, therefore teachers lack integrity. A thin argument, and a logical fallacy at that.

Is that all you have?

But your argument works both ways, you see, teachers could have even less integrity than society in general.

What I am getting at however is the fact that integrity is important, children are important and teachers have an important job.

Concern, therefore, is a reasonable reaction to the possibility that teachers lack integrity. Anecdotal evidence supports this possibility. After all, if society at large learn life lessons from a young age from their teachers, why is society lacking in integrity - are they bad learners or are they simply applying the standards of morality and integrity they picked up from those who taught them?

Whatever the reason, society will suffer because it lacks integrity and instilling integrity into society will take time. And, since teachers are part of society, they will suffer along with the rest of us.

Peregrinus

realitykeeper wrote: »

Teachers like other public servant people have a perceived vested interest in voting for leftist parties . . .

And people who run private business have a vested interest in voting for parties that favour privatization. And taxpayers have a vested interest in voting for parties that promise to lower taxes. And people who work in the defence industry have a vested interest in voting for parties that favour military expenditure. And older people have a vested interest in voting for parties that will maintain the value of the old age pension, and the quality of the health services (and will levy taxes to do so). And so on and so on.

You're just pointing to one of the acknowledged characteristics of democracy; the voter will always feel a tension between his or her personal interest and the common good. You've done nothing at all to suggest that this plays out differently in Ireland than it does in other democracies, and nothing to suggest that the solution to whatever problems this gives rise to is "more privatization".

99nsr125

realitykeeper wrote: »

Am I wrong?

Yes


Fundamentally we're not corrupt we're incompetent imbeciles who lack the maturity to deal with things like adults

If you had one government that dealt with things correctly that would set the precedent we need and any government that followed would deal with things in a mature constructive way

realitykeeper

Peregrinus wrote: »

You're just pointing to one of the acknowledged characteristics of democracy; the voter will always feel a tension between his or her personal interest and the common good. You've done nothing at all to suggest that this plays out differently in Ireland than it does in other democracies,

I wasn`t trying to do that. Not sure why you raised such an irrelevant non issue. The point I was making was that if teachers worked in the real economy, they may well vote for what they really believe in and not just what is in it for themselves.

Peregrinus wrote: »

... and nothing to suggest that the solution to whatever problems this gives rise to is "more privatization".

Wrong. I suggested integrity and better morals as the solution.

realitykeeper

99nsr125 wrote: »

If you had one government that dealt with things correctly that would set the precedent we need and any government that followed would deal with things in a mature constructive way

With budget surpluses running to billions of Euro every year for an entire decade, Bertie Ahern had a golden opportunity to fundamentally change Ireland for the better. Yet somehow, he managed to make it worse. What a waste!

looksee

But your idea of ethics and morality may not be the same as my ideas of ethics and morality. I suspect that your desired morality has a great deal to do with religious ideas of morality.

realitykeeper

looksee wrote: »

But your idea of ethics and morality may not be the same as my ideas of ethics and morality. I suspect that your desired morality has a great deal to do with religious ideas of morality.

That we why we live in a democracy. Take the US for example, the Republicans and the democrats both vie for the moral high ground. When Chavez in Venezuela implemented a lot of left wing policies, he probably thought he was being moral and righteous but his legacy is not a happy one.

Hence the need to point out the errors in other people`s thinking. I believe the day will come when the Irish people will behave like the townspeople of Hamelin and demand the government renege on the national debt. I believe people should pay their debts.