A Christian perspective of understanding

goose2005

yoke wrote: »

Fine, I'll bite.

1. Is god all powerful? The book says yes.
2. Do I have free will? The book says yes.

If I have free will, then he doesnt have the power to make me worship him, and he never will, therefore he is not all powerful.

So the book is wrong.

God isn't all-powerful in the Bible though. He creates the universe, but seems to have a limited capacity to influence it

smacl

goose2005 wrote: »

God isn't all-powerful in the Bible though. He creates the universe, but seems to have a limited capacity to influence it

Omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent seems to cover most bases. Maybe he has free will too and simply chooses not to intervene? Y'know Godly game of thrones on the God box so couldn't be arsed dealing with the latest crisis with the little mud men

conditioned games

kylith wrote: »

That's very interesting. Could you provide some examples please?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mnhcZ5sK9tU

The above has 25 examples of predictions in the bible coming true

conditioned games

smacl wrote: »

Omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent seems to cover most bases. Maybe he has free will too and simply chooses not to intervene? Y'know Godly game of thrones on the God box so couldn't be arsed dealing with the latest crisis with the little mud men

Why should he constantly intervene. Everyone would be on their best behaviour rather than showing their true colours. The world we were born in to is full of deception, it is up to us to seek out God among all the noise and propaganda we have to deal with. From what I gathered by those that control this world and their allegiance to Lucifer, it is something I want no part of.

Samaris

conditioned games wrote: »

Why should he constantly intervene. Everyone would be on their best behaviour rather than showing their true colours. The world we were born in to is full of deception, it is up to us to seek out God among all the noise and propaganda we have to deal with. From what I gathered by those that control this world and their allegiance to Lucifer, it is something I want no part of.

Youtube is always the place to start..

Although if everyone was on their best behavior, you'd have a virtuous circle of people being decent to each other, no? Other humans don't have to see each other's "true colours"; since God can see everything, there's no need, he can punish them anyway.

So that plan was a bit short-sighted really.

robindch

realitykeeper wrote: »

[...] I shall get back to it.

Any idea of when?

Asking for a friend.

realitykeeper

yoke wrote: »

Fine, I'll bite.

1. Is god all powerful? The book says yes.
2. Do I have free will? The book says yes.

If I have free will, then he doesnt have the power to make me worship him, and he never will, therefore he is not all powerful.

So the book is wrong.

God is good, so he would never use his power to make you worship him.

Hotblack Desiato

...and threats of hell don't count?

realitykeeper

yoke wrote: »

There are various other points which make a mockery of the whole thing and show it up for the authoritarian bullsh!t it all is:

Why is god allowed to "test" mortals all the time, but mortals arent allowed to "test" other mortals? Because he's god? Thats the definition of authoritarianism, which also goes against "free will" - so this god gives people "free will", and then demands that they dont use it, and instead do as he says? Is he stupid?

Does he reward other forms of stupidity as well, because at present people who ignore what their senses tell them and blindly follow what some guy wrote down in a book instead, are supposed to be rewarded by going to heaven, while people who dont do that end up in hell?

If I'm a textbook "good person", and I get some disease which destroys some of my brain cells and I become a murderous lunatic for the next 40 years, is it my fault or not? This goes back to causality and the illusion of free will, ie. at what point are my decisions considered a product of my environment or chemical decisions in my brain, rather than due to my "free will"?

Is it OK to kill things in general? Every time you take a step you kill some bacteria or plants under your foot, and you cant claim ignorance as an excuse anymore because you've just read this and I've told you that you're doing it, so from now on if you dont want to needlessly kill living things and go to hell, you're going to have to never walk again...

Mortals have an immortal soul. Mortals are free to choose between good and evil. To know God is to love him because he has given humanity everything he has to give.

realitykeeper

Samaris wrote: »

So why is it so darned hard to get certain Christians to understand other human beings, not to mention those that insist on as much ignorance as possible regarding "the world", i.e. that it's 6,000 years old, despite all the evidence that apparently God left to the contrary. Or how people procreate and how not to procreate accidentally. Or how disease works for those with that particular bee in the bonnet. Or evolution and all the God-given evidence there.

Maybe the Church and proselytisers would be removing the log from their own eyes and actually follow the Bible they want everyone else to obey.

By striving to understand, you will gain an understanding to all the above worldly questions.

Rather than concerning yourself with the sins of the Church and the proselytizers, I would urge you to read the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18:9-14

Samaris

realitykeeper wrote: »

By striving to understand, you will gain an understanding to all the above worldly questions.

Rather than concerning yourself with the sins of the Church and the proselytizers, I would urge you to read the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+18:9-14

Ah, the old "do as I say, not as I do" ploy.

I have seen it done more subtly before, but full marks for getting straight to the point.

Maybe we heathens wouldn't have to focus on the sins of your church if the proselytisers would do a bit of house-cleaning before attempting to convert more people.

realitykeeper

Peatys wrote: »

Get to the gates, 'what's the story with childhood cancer?'
'part of my plan'
'you're grand, think I'll leave it'

This is just purgatory but forever is a long time.

realitykeeper

Samaris wrote: »

Ah, the old "do as I say, not as I do" ploy.

I have seen it done more subtly before, but full marks for getting straight to the point.

Maybe we heathens wouldn't have to focus on the sins of your church if the proselytisers would do a bit of house-cleaning before attempting to convert more people.

You didn`t read the parable, did you?

realitykeeper

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

...and threats of hell don't count?

I think it is a simple choice. You soul goes where you want it to go. If you reject the will of God, that is one choice. If you accept the will of God, that is another.

21:28 "A man had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 21:29 The boy answered, ‘I will not.’ But later he had a change of heart and went. 21:30 The father went to the other son and said the same thing. This boy answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but did not go. 21:31 Which of the two did his father’s will?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, tax collectors and prostitutes will go ahead of you into the kingdom of God! 21:32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him. But the tax collectors and prostitutes believed him. Although you saw this, you did not later change your minds and believe him.”

People condemn their own souls to hell.

Samaris

I know the parable. My lack of response is not due to being overwhelmed by the relevance, but actually, I was overwhelmed by the hypocrisy of your usage of it. Slows things up when one has to keep deleting incendiary language.

Self-righteousness can be rather in the eyes of the beholder. To me, the Church is sickening, hypocritical, self-righteous and has the absolute nerve to teach others about how to live their lives when it covered up crimes amongst its own. You came to a place for people not of your religion and told bare-faced lies, and merely that the "no priest can be a paedophile" is so bat**** crazy in the face of all available evidence that no-one would believe it is no excuse for the intention. Given the Church then moved them around when they knew about it, thus deliberately moving these "fake priests" about to teach and give false sacraments, surely that's even more condemnable. (It was quite good sophistry that was used on your behalf, but the Church itself organising the cover-ups rather makes it pointless. Apparently the Church didn't consider them "no longer priests", so unless you're the Pope, you don't get to make that decision. Therefore, it was a deliberate untruth, aka, a lie.)

To you, anyone judging the Church is self-righteous, particularly if they are not believers, or so is the impression I get.

So be it. Of those two options, I'd take the second one a thousand times over the first. My original complaint was that the persistent proselytisers just cannot leave people who want nothing to do with their church or faith alone. Yis can have it. Yis can practice it. Yis can pray standing on your heads if you like, just don't shove it at me and don't make laws of the country that I too live in based on it. Oh, and preferably don't lie about science either, that's really annoying.

You countered that with, irony of ironies, proselytising at me. Superb dodge on coming up with a way to not condemn child molestation by holy men of the Church though. Even the Church didn't have the chutzpah to use the "you are a sinner too" argument (much).

yoke

realitykeeper wrote: »

God is good, so he would never use his power to make you worship him.

Why does he want me to worship him?

Anyway if my "free will" can be overruled by this god, then he has the power to stop me from doing wrong, but does not use this power - thus, through inaction, he is complicit in my wrong-doing.

If I am walking down the street and I see someone getting mugged, and I walk on without helping in any way while I easily had the power to help (even if its indirectly by calling the police), then I cant claim to be a helpful person.
The same way, if this god has the power to do "good" in the universe and he doesnt do it, then he can't claim to be "all good".

nozzferrahhtoo

Since you have decided, seemingly, to wholesale skip and ignore and dodge my last response I can jump to this post and simply ask.....

realitykeeper wrote: »

Mortals have an immortal soul.

........ if you could define exactly what you mean by "soul" and what argument, evidence, data and reasoning you have to offer to support your outright assertion as to it being immortal.

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think it is a simple choice. You soul goes where you want it to go.

I have always wished muggers would use this approach in their "work". Rather than say "If you do not give me your money I will stab you with this knife" they should instead say "If you do not give me your money, then you are choosing to accept this knife between your ribs".

Alas a threat remains a threat, no matter how much you try to dress it up to look pretty.

MrPudding

conditioned games wrote: »

Why should he constantly intervene. Everyone would be on their best behaviour rather than showing their true colours. The world we were born in to is full of deception, it is up to us to seek out God among all the noise and propaganda we have to deal with. From what I gathered by those that control this world and their allegiance to Lucifer, it is something I want no part of.

When you were an unbeliever and are now a believer, what exactly did you mean? Is it you were raised a a catholic, rebelled a little as a teenager and stopped going to mass, perhaps told a few people that you were an atheist now, so you looked cool, but secretly wondered what it all meant, and then magically became a believer again?

The reason I ask is because I am an unbeliever, and I really, really unbelieve. I unbeleive to the extent that the only conceivable way I could ever be a believer is a brain tumour or other severe trauma to the brain. And for the avoidance of doubt, that isn't because having cancer or a massive trauma would make me question my life and bring me closer to god, it is because the only thing that would make me believe the utter nonsense you believe is if my brain was so damaged and compromised that it wasn't actually functioning properly.

So my suggestion to you is this, if you are the first type of unbeliever i talk about, the "not really an unbeliever", then be a little more honest and don't try to pretend that you finding god was a big deal. Your "conversion" is not really a conversion and signifies nothing of note. If you genuinely were the other type of unbeliever, one that actually, genuinely did not believe, like i am, then do yourself a favour and go to the doctor and maybe get a brain scan.

MrP

MrPudding

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I have always wished muggers would use this approach in their "work". Rather than say "If you do not give me your money I will stab you with this knife" they should instead say "If you do not give me your money, then you are choosing to accept this knife between your ribs".

Alas a threat remains a threat, no matter how much you try to dress it up to look pretty.

I wonder could this be used in court as a defence... I guess it is just another form of victim blaming.

MrP

LeinsterDub

conditioned games wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mnhcZ5sK9tU

The above has 25 examples of predictions in the bible coming true

Postdictions don't count as predictions nor do 'predictions' so vague that over a long enough period of time they are bound to happen.

'It will snow is Dublin' is a prediction but it's so vague as to be meaningless and over all long enough timeline it will snow everywhere on this planet.

kylith

conditioned games wrote: »

Why should he constantly intervene. Everyone would be on their best behaviour rather than showing their true colours. The world we were born in to is full of deception, it is up to us to seek out God among all the noise and propaganda we have to deal with. From what I gathered by those that control this world and their allegiance to Lucifer, it is something I want no part of.

You mean, the way God made them, and the way God knew they'd act?

conditioned games

MrPudding wrote: »

When you were an unbeliever and are now a believer, what exactly did you mean? Is it you were raised a a catholic, rebelled a little as a teenager and stopped going to mass, perhaps told a few people that you were an atheist now, so you looked cool, but secretly wondered what it all meant, and then magically became a believer again?

The reason I ask is because I am an unbeliever, and I really, really unbelieve. I unbeleive to the extent that the only conceivable way I could ever be a believer is a brain tumour or other severe trauma to the brain. And for the avoidance of doubt, that isn't because having cancer or a massive trauma would make me question my life and bring me closer to god, it is because the only thing that would make me believe the utter nonsense you believe is if my brain was so damaged and compromised that it wasn't actually functioning properly.

So my suggestion to you is this, if you are the first type of unbeliever i talk about, the "not really an unbeliever", then be a little more honest and don't try to pretend that you finding god was a big deal. Your "conversion" is not really a conversion and signifies nothing of note. If you genuinely were the other type of unbeliever, one that actually, genuinely did not believe, like i am, then do yourself a favour and go to the doctor and maybe get a brain scan.

MrP

Would have been raised catholic, gave up going to mass, didn't believe in God for years, began researching how the world works, realised there is evil lurking behind the scenes shaping the world, made a connection with the bible when referring to the anti Christ, and the more I thought about it the more I realised this time on earth is a chance to choose between good and evil. Also listening to the teachings of the bible gives me a better grounding and purpose to live life.

conditioned games

kylith wrote: »

You mean, the way God made them, and the way God knew they'd act?

You can't blame God if a person chooses bad. It's that persons decision to behave a certain way and come judgment they will be judged on what they did in life.

robindch

conditioned games wrote: »

You can't blame God if a person chooses bad.

But, doesn't god know what a person is going to choose?

Hotblack Desiato

MrPudding wrote: »

When you were an unbeliever and are now a believer, what exactly did you mean?

I have never found any such claim to be believeable... i.e. strong childhood indoctrination and, who would have guessed it! when they 'return to the faith' it was the same thing all along. Doubting or disinterest is not the same thing as disbelief, at all.

conditioned games wrote: »

Would have been raised catholic, gave up going to mass, didn't believe in God for years, began researching how the world works, realised there is evil lurking behind the scenes shaping the world, made a connection with the bible when referring to the anti Christ, and the more I thought about it the more I realised this time on earth is a chance to choose between good and evil. Also listening to the teachings of the bible gives me a better grounding and purpose to live life.

No offence but if that happened to me, I'd hope my loved ones would have the good sense to take me to a good quality psychiatric facility pronto.

CabanSail

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think it is a simple choice. You soul goes where you want it to go. If you reject the will of God, that is one choice. If you accept the will of God, that is another.

When I was dead my "soul" was OK. I am sure it will be fine when I am dead again.

realitykeeper wrote: »

But the tax collectors and prostitutes believed him. Although you saw this, you did not later change your minds and believe him.”

People condemn their own souls to hell.

So we should spend more time with VAT Inspectors and Whores?

conditioned games

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I have never found any such claim to be believeable... i.e. strong childhood indoctrination and, who would have guessed it! when they 'return to the faith' it was the same thing all along. Doubting or disinterest is not the same thing as disbelief, at all.




No offence but if that happened to me, I'd hope my loved ones would have the good sense to take me to a good quality psychiatric facility pronto.

A few years ago I would have said the same thing. From getting a better understanding how the financial system works and their use of mainstream media, music and film industry to control the masses, my opinion has definitely changed. No point in discussing this point further, when you assume the world is as it is, it's impossible to think there's secret societies guiding the world from the very top.

spacecoyote

realitykeeper wrote: »

I think it is a simple choice. You soul goes where you want it to go.

Sweet, I want my soul to go to nudist playboy-bunny golf island

MrPudding

conditioned games wrote: »

Would have been raised catholic, gave up going to mass, didn't believe in God for years, began researching how the world works, realised there is evil lurking behind the scenes shaping the world, made a connection with the bible when referring to the anti Christ, and the more I thought about it the more I realised this time on earth is a chance to choose between good and evil. Also listening to the teachings of the bible gives me a better grounding and purpose to live life.

My mind boggles at how someone could "research how the world works" and then come to the conclusion that the christian god exists. Seriously...

Also, gave up going to mass does not equal didn't believe in god. I gave up going to mass, and then over a period of years, mostly by researching how the world works, came to the conclusion that god did not exist. To me it seems like you didn't really think at all, and weren't ever, really, an unbeliever.

MrP

LeinsterDub

All the paradoxs mentioned here reminded me of this video.