E-flow demands 300 euro fine for 2 e-toll trips+ tourist scams

Ultimate Seduction

And ghosty, the link you showed proves my point. SERIAL offenders, one of them drive though it 1600 times. Me and op did it twice! Stop with the scaremongering!

L1011

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

And ghosty, the link you showed proves my point. SERIAL offenders, one of them drive though it 1600 times. Me and op did it twice! Stop with the scaremongering!

Stop posting on this thread.

donegal.

the opening post is quite long so i might have missed it, But where is the scam?

cms88

Ultimate Seduction wrote: »

I'm simply telling the op my experience. I didn't pay it and nothing Did, or will come of it. Maybe using it multiple times will result in court, but not for 2 unpaid tolls. Not a hope

Seeing as you can tell the future, why don't you tell us the numbers for the lotto?

cms88

donegal. wrote: »

the opening post is quite long so i might have missed it, But where is the scam?

There's none. Just another person trying to get out of paying something

redcup342

300 euro fine for not paying 6.20 ?

Bloody hell and you people in Ireland put up with that ?

Seems a bit excessive for a small error, especially with barrier free tolling.

What about all the people that visit Ireland that don't speak or understand written English ?

dudara

@Ultimate Seduction - warned for ignoring mod instruction

@cms88 - if you have a problem with a post, please report it using the Report Post functionality so that a mod can deal with it

dudara

N2017

Cabaal, i had the car rented till mid of November then i refunded it and took the same car a few days later for another few weeks till beginning of December. I was never notified by car rental company about the outstanding charge on e- flow. Then i was abroad and came back in the new year and rented a place at a different address so my address has changed. I did not rent the car with this company after so why would i need to update my address with them? When i gave the car back they did not raise any issues and refunded the deposit.

Dates on letters from e-flow were for months later, so obviously they have contacted the company after a while. I could of not known that there were demands for payments because i had a different address and no-one has personally tried to contact me by phone to let me know of it. I came across all the letters 9 months later only because i visited people at the old address and they have kept some of the old the post from people who lived there before? otherwise i wouldn't even find out about the fines, etc...I called e-flow and their solicitor as soon as i found out.
I i knew there were charges for e-flow from the beginning i would of paid them straight away, and even with a penalty of 40 quid, but e-flow have passed it on to their solicitors and their are not that all open to negotiations.

I do not disagree with people that e-flow could of retracted their penalty fines and let them pay the original charge. In my case because i rang them 9 months later they have already passed it onto their solicitors and solicitors are looking for their fees and charges including of e-flow penalties. The thing is what if i have never received those letters? And I am sure in some cases with tourists or business visitors to this country this does take place. People's circumstances change all the time. A person may supply their work address and then move job or department and never receive those letters. So the client unknowingly would rack up the bills in fines to thousands and then the court order, and then get a criminal offence record in this country? That would of been some expensive trip!
The reason im raising this issue here is that this situations do happen! And the attitude of e-flows solicitors ( and they are by the way are supposed to represent the client to recover original money for the services provided ) can be very distressing. What i was trying to show is that the system is somewhere broken. You guys live in Ireland, almost 9 mln tourists came to the country this year ( that's what i ve heard on the radio so don't beat me up here if the figure is incorrect), surely at least half of them passed the toll. And things do happen, looking for a foreigner to pay 300 fine over a 3 euro charge a few months later and purely by their postal address does not seem very fair to me. If i found out years later by a chance that i had a traffic offender record and thousands in penalties just from a 3 euro toll charge this would probably leave a very bitter taste in my mouth and bad impression about the country.

I posted here to get some advice, and thank you all for your replies as i see from the them that e-flow's solicitors always succeed in courts and i guess by the time it gets to courts this whole issue could escalate to thousands, so, yes, i am better off paying the charges off now, before it got any worse and just put this bad experience behind me. Thanks all.

I will try Hertz next time, thank you for that advice too.

N2017

donegal. wrote: »

the opening post is quite long so i might have missed it, But where is the scam?

Donegal read my post for 29th of september. This barrier free system for e-flow although is convenient but can make tourists very confused, and the way they try to recover their toll charges together with penalties and solicitors fees by threatening people with courts ( trying to get more money playing on client's fear ) is a scam to me. The solicitors and e-flow make more money on fines and charges rather than the barrier itself.
I am not a regular offender and made a genuine small error, as im sure most of tourists do - I have been coming to Ireland back and forward for quiet a bit and previously lived here to happened to know the country a bit better than occasional tourists do.

I previously worked in construction sector and we were owed large amounts of money by our main contractors, in some instances up to 100K and would not get paid for months, and on occasion for over a year! (doesn't matter how hard you pursued them for payment they always found a way to delay it) and our solicitor was there to purely recover the money. We paid the solicitor for their service to recover the money owed -it never got to courts (well, one of the contractors filed for bankruptcy and never paid for services provided, and it was a very large sum of money too - the court thing was little too late, but at the time most of subcontractors got done) but neither did we ever charge solicitors fees and penalties for delay of the payments to our clients. Because this was part of the way things were done in Ireland at the time - it was hard to get the money from the builders, but you also had to be there either way and work if you wanted to continue getting future contracts and keep your job( they would of easily get another company to do the work and come up with the reason to skim the payment). So we had to just put up with the late payments and slowly recover our money. Thats the way things were done before the recession and probably are still done now because this is the game of this business. Neither the less nobody complained.

In the instance with e-flow things are set up pretty nicely to make hefty collections, same as with clamping system by the way, is it because it is tied in to the Road Authority that people have to put up with it without no exceptions... in my case : pay up or go to court and then pay 10 times more feels a bit bureaucratic really.

java

N2017 wrote: »

In the instance with e-flow things are set up pretty nicely to make hefty collections, same as with clamping system by the way, is it because it is tied in to the Road Authority that people have to put up with it without no exceptions... in my case : pay up or go to court and then pay 10 times more feels a bit bureaucratic really.

It is unfortunate at this point that the amount you owe is so large, however, this is all your own doing. There is no 'tourist scam' here. You didn't pay for 2 journeys and also provided an incorrect address. Eflow, and any other provider, are entitled to get paid for a service they provide. The harsh reality is you should pay up and move on.

N2017

java wrote: »

It is unfortunate at this point that the amount you owe is so large, however, this is all your own doing. There is no 'tourist scam' here. You didn't pay for 2 journeys and also provided an incorrect address. Eflow, and any other provider, are entitled to get paid for a service they provide. The harsh reality is you should pay up and move on.

Java, you must be e-flow's agent...

How is it my own doing? It just does not make sense what you are saying.

1. I provided address i used at the time of my car rental, but e-flow must of contacted rental company in a couple of months, my address has changed at that stage.

2. I rented a car good few times last year every time i refunded the car there was no issue with my rental.
The same, I refunded the car in mid November. E-flow letter clearly states that the trip was made sometime between 1st and 11th of November ( they do not say exact date and time but it does not matter as i had the rental car during that period of time, i have no issue with that). The thing is when i was in car rental company office i gave the car back and they run all their usual checks on the system and had no problem with my rental, and prolonged the renting contract again, I think I had the same car with the same reg. but am not sure (i have a slip somewhere i can check) for another 2-3 weeks so i still was around for a while and they could of notified me at that stage there was a toll charge. When i gave the car back in december i did not use renting service after but they had my details, phone number and credit card on file.
This shows that e-flow contacted car rental company a good while after my rental contract was finished, perhaps, some months after ( letters i have start from 4th of March) The point here is that obviously it took e-flow good while to look for the toll charge and contact car rental company, and the car rental company instead of covering the charge or getting back to me on it just gave them the address they had on file.
The thing is -i have move on to a new address since then. So how would i know that there was a toll charge outstanding and all those letters being sent to the address.

So there was timing issue and also lack of proper communication with the client.

Someone have previously mentioned that i should of contacted the car rental company and updated my address. But since i gave the car back in december 2016 i did not use their service, when they took it back they did not bring up any issues (if they did i would of course pay any amount outstanding, do you honestly anyone would want to have problems over a charge that is equivalent to a price for a cup of coffee?).
When you buy something on e-bay or amazon and provide your address for delivery, or, even, say, avail of the service ( call in a builder to fix something in the house), than receive your delivery or service and after a while, say, you move your address - do you go call back all your suppliers, or shops, or whichever companies you have used or bought goods from to let them know of your new address (in case if you do not need to use their service or re-order any more) ? Or if you do decide to avail of the same service in the future again, do you go in and THEN use your new address or update it on the system?

Now, think about how many people could of run into the same problem with e-flow that i happen to run into? Especially , those living abroad?

N2017

This is not about THE AMOUNT, it is about HOW we are being treated! People, hello, Im banging my head against the wall here...

L1011

N2017 wrote: »

Java, you must be e-flow's agent...

Do not accuse posters of working for companies. If you have concerns, report them. In this case there is nothing to back up your assumption.

N2017 wrote: »

How is it my own doing?

You ignored massive, massive signage about a toll.

There is a personal responsibility to be taken when driving, anywhere. You didn't do research in advance and didn't pay attention when driving.

If you really do want to go to court, the address change after the incident may work in your favour; but you are going to need a solicitor (you won't get costs for this) and will realistically still have to pay the first level fine of ~50 a toll.

N2017

L1011 wrote: »

Do not accuse posters of working for companies. If you have concerns, report them. In this case there is nothing to back up your assumption.



You ignored massive, massive signage about a toll.

There is a personal responsibility to be taken when driving, anywhere. You didn't do research in advance and didn't pay attention when driving.

If you really do want to go to court, the address change after the incident may work in your favour; but you are going to need a solicitor (you won't get costs for this) and will realistically still have to pay the first level fine of ~50 a toll.

Are you telling me that tourists coming to this country shall do hours or days of research about the implications and legal matters for non-payment of a "toll" existence of which they are not even aware of?

What are " massive, massive signage" exactly ? demanding
letters with penalties and threats with courts for non payment of 2 toll trips (e are talking about 6 euro here, could of been as well 5 cent) that were released months after car rental took place and went to wrong address?

and who do you work for L1011? e flows solicitors? you repeating posts ring bells
Are there any ordinary non- related to e-flow participants on this forum?

L1011

N2017 wrote: »

Are you telling me that tourists coming to this country shall do hours or days of research about the implications and legal matters for non-payment of a "toll" existence of which they are not even aware of?

What are " massive, massive signage" exactly ? demanding
letters with penalties and threats with courts for non payment of 2 toll trips (e are talking about 6 euro here, could of been as well 5 cent) that were released months after car rental took place and went to wrong address?

and who do you work for L1011? e flows solicitors? you repeating posts ring bells
Are there any ordinary non- related to e-flow participants on this forum?

Tourists need to make themselves aware of the laws of where they are driving.

If you have driven the M50 and paid attention you will see the signage about the tolls. They are huge - if you didn't see them, you shouldn't be driving as you are clearly inattentive. They give clear instruction on how to pay.

Speculation or accusations about potential employers is not allowed here. You were warned already.


You may want to consider how implausible a situation it is that every single poster who disagrees with you could possibly work for what is not a particularly large company before making such an accusation again. Also, such an accusation again will result in further moderation action.

Tom Mann Centuria

N2017 wrote: »

Are you telling me that tourists coming to this country shall do hours or days of research about the implications and legal matters for non-payment of a "toll" existence of which they are not even aware of?

What are " massive, massive signage" exactly ? demanding
letters with penalties and threats with courts for non payment of 2 toll trips (e are talking about 6 euro here, could of been as well 5 cent) that were released months after car rental took place and went to wrong address?

and who do you work for L1011? e flows solicitors? you repeating posts ring bells
Are there any ordinary non- related to e-flow participants on this forum?

If the tourists have come from a first world country they will understand the notion of tolls, also the implications of non payment penalties forthcoming if they don't pay. Toll roads are not an Irish thing, so I'd give tourists more credit.

I think there could be better signage, or at least a couple of reminder signs further along the road.

Sorry you have a big bill but no one here ran it up, or is chasing you for it, so I think your anger is misplaced.

The only relations I have with e flow are paying my tolls.

endacl

N2017 wrote: »

What are " massive, massive signage" exactly ?

N2017

Look guys, i agree that the signage on m50 is quite visible. People have busy lives and may just get distracted and forget about ringing up and paying the toll ( as in my case- it was just a small unintentional error and can happen to anyone). And i have no problem with paying for toll trips either. You are talking about me now as if i was a regular offender and refused to pay the toll. I was not hiding or ignoring the letters either and contacted e flow and their solicitor straight away, and i did give them my new address and phone number (so i am not hiding or trying to avoid them). It is just happened that i went into my old place of address and recovered that post that was there, perhaps i was lucky to find out about toll charges at this still early stage ( this thing could of expanded into thousands?), or as i guess, if i have never found out i would of gotten a judgement against me and an offence on the system + all penalties and charges , solicitors and court expenses.
As was already advised above in earlier posts, even finding out about the toll charges and penalties incurred is not much use to me either if i did decide to go to court and argue my case as I would stand a very slim chance in winning this matter. This system seems bureaucratic as it is based on scaring "so called offenders" into paying huge charges regardless of their circumstances and what's right or wrong because people would be afraid to test it as no one wants to end up with thousands in fines over such a small initial charge, so to me it feels unjust.

And perhaps car rental companies and the road authority could liaise with their customers a bit better and come up with a better and more fair system in recovering their toll charges.

Regards

joeysoap

N2017 wrote: »

And perhaps car rental companies and the road authority could liaise with their customers a bit better and come up with a better and more fair system in recovering their toll charges.

Regards

I rent a car in the Algarve maybe twice a year. Different companies have different policies but the basics are the same for motorway tolls. Some charge €5 for the 'transponder' and the actual tolls incurred. Some charge €15 which includes €10 in tolls and if you exceed this they charge in €5/€10 bands and not as you actually incurred. The company I usually rent from take a deposit of €20 and if you use the motorway at all they keep the €20. (If you don't use it they refund the €20 on return of the car. It's an honour system, they take your word for it and return the credit card slip at the same time).

* There could be up to 4/5 gantrys on on the motorway between the airport and resort. Some as low as .50c some over a Euro. They are generally every 10/15 Kms.

Would that work here?

redcup342

L1011 wrote: »

Tourists need to make themselves aware of the laws of where they are driving.

If you have driven the M50 and paid attention you will see the signage about the tolls. They are huge - if you didn't see them, you shouldn't be driving as you are clearly inattentive. They give clear instruction on how to pay.

Speculation or accusations about potential employers is not allowed here. You were warned already.


You may want to consider how implausible a situation it is that every single poster who disagrees with you could possibly work for what is not a particularly large company before making such an accusation again. Also, such an accusation again will result in further moderation action.

Yeah but the fine is completely disproportionate.

I mean come on ... 300 euros !! that's crazy!!

It's almost the same cost as running a red light in Germany !

Cordell

It's because they've engaged a solicitor/collector. They have to do this, otherwise people won't pay.

OP, try to get them to accept installments or maybe a reduced penalty, but you need to pay it. You agreed to terms and conditions when you chose to drive there.

N2017

An update :
I contacted Consumers agency -they said to check the car rental terms and conditions in relation to renting terme- there is nothing about the toll. But when i call the car rental company they say it is nothing to do with them as they just pass the address that they have on file to e-flow, they do not have time to contact their old customers to tell them about unpaid tolls, etc..
Then I have contacted Pierse F. solicitors again and tried to explain that in my case no-one is responsible for the error and asked her to waive the penalties on this ground, as i moved address i used with the car rental company last time and e-flow did not contact the car rental company about non payment of toll straightaway. E-flow tried to recover the charges too late, rental company did not notify me of this, and so on... i had a different address at that stage and could not know there was a toll fee otherwise i would of paid it.
The solicitor just kept saying same thing that they sent the reminders, i did not pay and that is it- i have to pay the fines, but agreed to reduce the fine to 150. I asked her to give me a few days and got time till friday to come up with the payment, otherwise the fee will get back to the original 300 +court proceedings.

Redcup342, I agree, the charges are way too expensive in comparison to the usual wage of an ordinary working person. How much did e-flow spend on 2 -3 pieces of paper for an automated respond + 2 solicitors letters that were sent by ordinary post, and a phone call? I think 50euro fine would sound more reasonable for their time and a small error made. Non of us makes 150 an hour...

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

N2017 wrote: »

An update :
I contacted Consumers agency -they said to check the car rental terms and conditions in relation to renting terme- there is nothing about the toll. But when i call the car rental company they say it is nothing to do with them as they just pass the address that they have on file to e-flow, they do not have time to contact their old customers to tell them about unpaid tolls, etc..
Then I have contacted Pierse F. solicitors again and tried to explain that in my case no-one is responsible for the error and asked her to waive the penalties on this ground, as i moved address i used with the car rental company last time and e-flow did not contact the car rental company about non payment of toll straightaway. E-flow tried to recover the charges too late, rental company did not notify me of this, and so on... i had a different address at that stage and could not know there was a toll fee otherwise i would of paid it.
The solicitor just kept saying same thing that they sent the reminders, i did not pay and that is it- i have to pay the fines, but agreed to reduce the fine to 150. I asked her to give me a few days and got time till friday to come up with the payment, otherwise the fee will get back to the original 300 +court proceedings.

Redcup342, I agree, the charges are way too expensive in comparison to the usual wage of an ordinary working person. How much did e-flow spend on 2 -3 pieces of paper for an automated respond + 2 solicitors letters that were sent by ordinary post, and a phone call? I think 50euro fine would sound more reasonable for their time and a small error made. Non of us makes 150 an hour...

Did you talk to Eflow?

joeysoap

You're getting a deal. Take it and move on.

N2017

Karen Glamorous Joint wrote: »

Did you talk to Eflow?

yes, i rang e-flow before i called the solicitor, they said my case is closed on their system and therefore there is nothing they can do for me since they can not log into my case on their system and to deal with their solicitor from there on..

Cabaal

If anybody is too "busy" to see the toll signs on the M50 then in all honesty I'd rather that person is not driving as it appears they are incapable of driving with due care and most importantly... Attention!

Op, you have a deal, pay it, admit your fault and move on. It can be hard to admit personal responsibility but take it as a life lesson

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

How much did e-flow spend on 2 -3 pieces of paper for an automated respond + 2 solicitors letters that were sent by ordinary post, and a phone call? I think 50euro fine would sound more reasonable for their time

You obviously have no idea what costs are involved in a business. You'll get little or nothing processed in a company for €50 including overheads.
€150 is a very fair deal. Just pay it.

whiterebel

N2017 wrote: »

An update :
Non of us makes 150 an hour...

Apart from solicitors.....

whippet

While I can't dispute your version of events as outlined here my take on this is;

The penalty system is designed to punish those who have no intention of paying or thinking they will get away with it. As people have mentioned eflow are very receptive to people reacting to the first notice and apologising and paying up .. usually without penalties.

However, when all notices are ignored they pass it on to a solicitor's firm to enforce payment and penalties costs etc .. usually with a very high success rate.

Your story could be read by eflow as someone who choose to ignore the warnings and only reacted to the legal letter ... they may see it as a coincidence that the address that the rental company had wasn't your current address and you only picked up post when it was the legal letter .. not the notices

In effect it looks like you were hoping the requests for the late payment and subsequent charges would disappear until you got the last letter and have now decided to do something about.

You knew the system, either forgot or buried your head in the sand and hoped it would go away .. it didn't and now you are trying to convince others that the system is designed to use tourists or others as a cash cow ... not true.

I've driven in many different countries with all sorts of tolls, congestion charges, parking peculiarities .. and never had to pay a fine as either the rental company or my own reading of signs prepared me for what I needed to do

Take the deal at €150 and chalk it up to experience

Charles Babbage

Rental cars should be obliged by law to have tags, the present situation is ridiculous. I was in Boston in the summer and the car had a tag, and the tolls ( sum was deducted from my credit card 10 day later. No possibility of fines in this case.

The regulation of car rental in Ireland is a joke.