Food for thought: Can you be happy with a family member or friend in hell?

Nick Park

Leroy42 wrote: »

I certainly did not intend to drag this off topic. The point I was trying to make about non believers, babies etc was not to get into a deep discussion but rather to point out the more complicated areas apart from people who live full lives and reject God.

There are plenty of people that nether know of God or have the chance to follow Jesus and I was asking if they get into heaven.
I didn’t rip the quote out of context. It is a direct quote from the bible. What Jesus actually said. I fail to see why he would say this and not finish it by saying that there are other ways as well.

Do you understand the difference between a quote being either direct or indirect, and a quote being either in context or out of context?

A quote can be direct, but still be out of context. For example, I might say, "The Bible says there is no God." That is a direct quote from the Bible, but it is taken out of context if used as an argument for atheism. The quote, in context, of course is that "The fool says in his heart there is no God."

Similarly, John 14:6 is a direct answer to a question by a Jewish man, who has witnessed Jesus heal the sick and raise the dead, as to how he should know the way to the Father. It would be nonsense to try to argue that Jesus' answer to him somehow condemns a newborn baby to hell. Trying to pretend it does is to abandon any pretence at understanding Christian belief.

Leroy42

Nick Park wrote: »

Do you understand the difference between a quote being either direct or indirect, and a quote being either in context or out of context?

A quote can be direct, but still be out of context. For example, I might say, "The Bible says there is no God." That is a direct quote from the Bible, but it is taken out of context if used as an argument for atheism. The quote, in context, of course is that "The fool says in his heart there is no God."

Similarly, John 14:6 is a direct answer to a question by a Jewish man, who has witnessed Jesus heal the sick and raise the dead, as to how he should know the way to the Father. It would be nonsense to try to argue that Jesus' answer to him somehow condemns a newborn baby to hell. Trying to pretend it does is to abandon any pretence at understanding Christian belief.

I never said it condemned anybody to anything. I was talking the words the Jesus said, as being what he meant. I would expect that since he was sent y God to bring people back to him that he would be pretty clear on what he meant. The fact that what he says has the effect of saying that those that don't believe in Jesus cannot get to God (non believers and, unfortunately babies) has nothing to do with context.

But listen, I am happy to park that for another thread. It is not the point of this thread. Going back to the OP, I still haven't seen a good explanation of why the compassion we feel on earth for our loved ones would suddenly disappear in heaven. And then, by extension, how one could be happy knowing that loved ones are in hell (whatever you deem hell to be).

beefburrito

Become a pagan and you won't give a shyte.....
Abrahamic religion's and Atheism are all the one thing....

Did you know Atheism was born out of the Abrahamic religion's.....

Nick Park

Leroy42 wrote: »

Love they neighbour and compassion are not a consequence of following Jesus. There are plenty of people in other religions and non that are loving and compassionate without any belief in Jesus.

I never said that love and compassion were only the prerogative of Christ-followers. We're not going to get very far if you keep arguing with stuff that I haven't said.

We were talking about Christians. When somebody becomes a Christian (in the sense of actually following Jesus rather than some cultural label) then the Bible tells us that we should see an increase in love and compassion in their lives. In this sense, love and compassion are consequences of faith. But they do not, in any sense, get us to eternal life.

On what basis do those that don’t know of Jesus get accepted into Heaven then?

The mercy and grace of God. As to who that saves, or who it does not, I don't pretend to know. And most Christians I know would take a similar view. They don't pretend to know who will be saved (for example if talking about someone who never encountered Christianity) but it would be a gross misrepresentation to accuse them of believing that all such people go to hell.

The Bible doesn't really encourage us to get all dogmatic about whether other people are going to hell or not. That's not its point. It was written to help us to get to know God.

Back to the OP, your answer about joy with thoughts of sadness is the knub of the issue. What level of sadness do you think you will have.

No idea. I think that's an impossible question to even attempt to answer. My experience on earth is that the amount of sadness I thought I would feel at anticipated events (e.g. the death of a child) was way off the mark. So I'm not going to be daft enough to predict levels of sadness at a future time when I've been resurrected. My point, and I think it's a fair one, is that sadness can co-exist with great joy.

Why would we care more on Earth that you would in heaven. IS it simply because you got your reward and so care less for others?

I explained in my first post in this thread that our joy in eternity will be at the triumph of good over evil, and that a source of much pain and evil has been removed. I haven't for a moment suggested that my sadness at the thought of a loved one going to hell would be any less than the sadness I feel about that prospect now.

As for your insinuation of selfishness about rewards. That is insulting and unwarranted. Nothing I have written to you justifies that.

Regardless of your belief in Jesus, or version of heaven, it seems odd to me that people can claim that they would be happy to know that their loved ones were damned for eternity to be without God for something as simple as questioning God.

I never said that anyone would be damned for questioning God. I question God frequently, as do most Christians I know. And, as I've explained several times now, being joyful does not equate to mind-numbing happiness.

I find that very odd and not in line with the compassion that Jesus spoke of.

And the Christians round here get accused of judgmentalism?

Leroy42

I suppose it the OP first needs clarification on what people think hell actually is. There seems to be a dumbing down of hell from Christians in the recent past. Gone is the eternal fire and brimstone and now it is the more friendly "lack of a relationship with God". But that goes against what the bible claims.

I know you are going to say that these are being taken out of context, and thus not have to actually deal with them, but I am going to point them out anyway. The bible uses the fear of judgment to try to instill belief in people.

For example, Jesus told his followers,

“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13,14, NASB)

“Just as weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire so will it happen at the end of this world. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will uproot from the kingdom everything that is spoiling it, and all those who live in defiance of its laws, and will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be tears and bitter regret.” (Matthew 13:24-43, J. B. Phillips)

In another reference to this fire of God’s judgment, Jesus reveals to the apostle John the ultimate destiny of those who have rejected his free offer of eternal life.

“If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15, J. B. Phillips)

The bible also states that the way to God is through Jesus

“God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. Those who do not believe have already been judged guilty, because they have not believed in God’s one and only Son.” (John 3:17, 18, NCV)

But the bible, upon which your faith is entirely based, contradicts each of those positions. If you don't believe that Jesus, and the following of him, is the path to God, then why are you a Christian.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

So we have quotes about hell, about destruction, lakes of fire, blazing furnace and that the only way to God is through Jesus. All from the bible. Yet many seem to be happy to discard them on the basis of making things sounds nicer.

If Jesus is the only way, then those that don't believe can't, nay surely shouldn't, be welcomed into God's kingdom. Why would Jesus say these things about hell if he didn't mean them? DO you not think it dangerous and abusive for God to make such claims when he didn't really mean them?

Nick Park wrote: »

And the Christians round here get accused of judgmentalism?

The whole basis of your religion is that God will judge us all. It is by its very nature judgemental. The God that you worship will be the ultimate judge, and you are happy with that. So, you are therefore judgmental. And you are happy for those that reject your God to be judged to eternity of punishment.

Garrett81

People get so caught up and concerned about the next life, that they completely miss the one their currently living.

EirWatchr

Garrett81 wrote: »

People get so caught up and concerned about the next life, that they completely miss the one their currently living.

"I have come so that they may have life and have it to the full." Jn 10:10

As the start of a life eternal, this one has immense importance.

Garrett81

As the start of a life eternal, this one has immense importance.[/quote]

That’s what I ment ,this one has immense importance but people waste it worrying about the afterlife.

Nick Park

Garrett81 wrote: »

That’s what I ment ,this one has immense importance but people waste it worrying about the afterlife.

False dichotomy. When it comes to this life or the afterlife, it isn't one or the other.

I look at people like Martin Luther King, Peter McVerry, Peter Benenson (founded Amnesty International), Chad Varah (founded Samaritans), Mother Theresa etc. They all believed in an afterlife, but that didn't stop them from using this life to make the world a better place.

Garrett81

Nick Park wrote: »

False dichotomy. When it comes to this life or the afterlife, it isn't one or the other.

I look at people like Martin Luther King, Peter McVerry, Peter Benenson (founded Amnesty International), Chad Varah (founded Samaritans), Mother Theresa etc. They all believed in an afterlife, but that didn't stop them from using this life to make the world a better place.

Yes I agree, I didn’t say it applied to everyone

EirWatchr

Garrett81 wrote: »

That’s what I ment ,this one has immense importance but people waste it worrying about the afterlife.

Keeping cognizant of our ultimate fate puts the things of this world in perspective. Failing to do that risks living as if for this life alone.

"When you die, all that you have belongs to someone else, all that you are is yours ... forever."

J C

Garrett81 wrote: »

People get so caught up and concerned about the next life, that they completely miss the one their currently living.

There are very few, if any, in this category anymore ... the reverse is now almost universal ... most people, including many Chrisitians, are so caught up in the things of this world, that they completely fail to think about how ephimeral this life actually is ... and how amazing eternity could be, for them ... and everybody else.

The following bible verses seem particulary pertinent for these people to consider:-

Mark 8:36King James Version (KJV)
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Luke 12:17-20King James Version (KJV)
17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

solodeogloria

Good morning!

Garrett81 wrote: »

People get so caught up and concerned about the next life, that they completely miss the one their currently living.

The Christian life is as much lived now as it is in the life to come. I'm not "caught up" in the next life. I'm concerned about living for Jesus in this life. I'm concerned with enjoying this life now - enjoying it for the right reasons. My joy should ultimately be derived from my relationship with Jesus. He gives us what we need. In the church we have a family of brothers and sisters drawn together under one Father through the rescuing death of His Son.

Garrett81 wrote: »

That’s what I ment ,this one has immense importance but people waste it worrying about the afterlife.

I don't worry about the afterlife. I know I am going to be with Jesus in glory if I trust Him. The Christian is someone who doesn't need to be concerned about the afterlife. Jesus has paid the price on the cross. He suffered and bled and died for me and rose again on the third day, so I, a wretched sinner could walk free. The Bible says that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us (Romans 5:8-9).

Free to be. Free to live as a Christian. Free to be the person God wants me to be.

That's glorious news. I think you've misunderstood Christianity if you think I spend everyday worrying about the next life. The point of the Gospel is that I am free of that concern. The Christian is the freest of all in this regard.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Leroy42

Slightly OT, but how can you claim to enjoy this life Solo when you see yourself in such demeaning terms?

Wretched sinner? Really? You think that your loving God looks at you with such disdain?

And why would your death suddenly change his mind? So let's say you live your life with God, loving caring etc but just before you die you happen to lie, or say the Lords name in vain, or even allow some doubt to enter your thoughts? Does that condemn you forever? I was always told that once you confessed your sins your would be forgiven but what if you get hit by a bus and don't have the chance to confess?

I can't see how you can't worry about the afterlife, and eternity with God, yet you live your whole life on the basis on getting there. You don't know whether you are going to heaven, you think you will, but you can't be sure.

Your idea of freedom is strange. You think that freedom is living your life based totally on the rules that someone else (God in this case) has designed. Rules that decide who can love, how, what to believe. I'm not sure that is freedom. Free to be wants God wants you to be, not what you want to be? Again, that is a very strange interpretation of freedom.

solodeogloria

Leroy42 wrote: »

Slightly OT, but how can you claim to enjoy this life Solo when you see yourself in such demeaning terms?

Wretched sinner? Really? You think that your loving God looks at you with such disdain?

And why would your death suddenly change his mind? So let's say you live your life with God, loving caring etc but just before you die you happen to lie, or say the Lords name in vain, or even allow some doubt to enter your thoughts? Does that condemn you forever? I was always told that once you confessed your sins your would be forgiven but what if you get hit by a bus and don't have the chance to confess?

I can't see how you can't worry about the afterlife, and eternity with God, yet you live your whole life on the basis on getting there. You don't know whether you are going to heaven, you think you will, but you can't be sure.

Your idea of freedom is strange. You think that freedom is living your life based totally on the rules that someone else (God in this case) has designed. Rules that decide who can love, how, what to believe. I'm not sure that is freedom. Free to be wants God wants you to be, not what you want to be? Again, that is a very strange interpretation of freedom.

Good morning!

I don't view myself in demeaning terms. I see myself as a chosen child of God rescued through the precious blood if Jesus. I see myself as a co-heir of all things and rich through Christ in the things that matter. That isn't a low view - it is a very high view.

Part of appreciating that position is to realise that it is entirely undeserved and it comes despite my sin. Owning our past instead of hiding it is the best way to move forward.

You've misunderstood Christianity as being simply a system with rules to be observed. This isn't true. Christianity is primarily a relationship with God through Jesus. That isn't a burden. What is a burden is dealing with a world that opposes God and His loving rule which brings brokenness in our world. What is a joy is knowing and loving Jesus so that we are free from that. What is a joy is growing to love God more and helping others to do the same. I follow God because I love Him. That isn't burdensome. It's a burden to oppose God and His word.

If I am friends with God through Christ then nothing can separate me from Him even telling a fib or saying the Lord's name in vain (Romans 8:38-39). The Lord loves to forgive those who want to be His. That's the Christian.

You've constructed a view of God which simply isn't the God of Scripture. He's a God who lavished grace on His beloved that He chose even before the foundation of the earth. (Ephesians 1:7-10)

I don't worry because I'm free in Jesus. Do you not understand that? I don't need to worry because of the cross.

I want to be what God wants me to be. It's one and the same. Living without Christ is a futile life.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Autochange

Hell dosnt exist. You are safe enough.

Leroy42

solodeogloria wrote: »

I don't view myself in demeaning terms. I see myself as a chosen child of God rescued through the precious blood if Jesus. I see myself as a co-heir of all things and rich through Christ in the things that matter. That isn't a low view - it is a very high view.

You said you were a wicked sinner. Hardly a glowing reference now is it. So you are one doubt away from returning to that level. And on what basis to you think you are a chosen child of God. The Israelites are the chosen people not you.

solodeogloria wrote: »

Part of appreciating that position is to realise that it is entirely undeserved and it comes despite my sin. Owning our past instead of hiding it is the best way to move forward.

So you are basically just lucky? You say you have a high view of yourself and then say it undeserved. So its not you that is worth anything, simply that God has bestowed you value. What past are you talking about. Your past doesn't need to be owned. AS you say you are a chosen child of God, you can basically do anything and still get to heaven. God doesn't care about your past, only that you believe going forward.

solodeogloria wrote: »

You've misunderstood Christianity as being simply a system with rules to be observed. This isn't true. Christianity is primarily a relationship with God through Jesus. That isn't a burden. What is a burden is dealing with a world that opposes God and His loving rule which brings brokenness in our world. What is a joy is knowing and loving Jesus so that we are free from that. What is a joy is growing to love God more and helping others to do the same. I follow God because I love Him. That isn't burdensome. It's a burden to oppose God and His word.

But the key underlying rule, beyond anything else, is that you must love God and follow Jesus. You can be as loving and nice as you can but without those you aren't getting to heaven. That is your believe isn't it?

solodeogloria wrote: »

If I am friends with God through Christ then nothing can separate me from Him even telling a fib or saying the Lord's name in vain (Romans 8:38-39). The Lord loves to forgive those who want to be His. That's the Christian.

So you can do whatever you want once you love God! I still don't understand why we need the Christ bit in the middle. WE had God before hand and it seems God just put more obstacles in the way.

solodeogloria wrote: »

You've constructed a view of God which simply isn't the God of Scripture. He's a God who lavished grace on His beloved that He chose even before the foundation of the earth. (Ephesians 1:7-10)

I have constructed a view of God based on my interpretation of scriptures. Exactly the same as you just I came to different conclusion. You seem happy to reconcile a vengeful, angry God with one of Love. You seem to be able to accept a God that is happy to have whole villages and the inhabitants destroyed, with no mercy, with a forgiving God.

solodeogloria wrote: »

I don't worry because I'm free in Jesus. Do you not understand that? I don't need to worry because of the cross.

I completely understand it. You have convined yourself that you are special, and that everyone else on the earth that doesn't believe deserves eternal punishment.

solodeogloria wrote: »

I want to be what God wants me to be. It's one and the same. Living without Christ is a futile life.

And what does God want you to be? How can you be certain that you are now what he wants you to be? Suicide bombers believe they are doing Allahs will. Is your belief as strong as theirs?

solodeogloria

Good evening!

Leroy42 wrote: »

You said you were a wicked sinner. Hardly a glowing reference now is it. So you are one doubt away from returning to that level. And on what basis to you think you are a chosen child of God. The Israelites are the chosen people not you.

I said I was a wretched sinner, yes. That's true. That's part of understanding who I am now in Christ and how wonderful that is and the high position that God has given me despite how I have frequently ignored Him and lived as if He weren't the true Lord of the universe. If you want ignore the truth about our sin and believe something else then Christianity is not for you. Christianity is for people who want to acknowledge that frequently they have done what is evil rather than what is good and want to seek the truth and deal with it head on.

On the Israelites being chosen and not me - Yes and no. You're right that Abraham's descendants were in a special covenant relationship with God. Isaac was chosen over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau. This is true. God used Israel as a part of His salvation plan.

What's also true however is that God would bless all the peoples on the earth through this line (Genesis 12:3). Through the prophet Isaiah, God says that His plan is to include the Gentiles (Isaiah 56). Isaiah also says that the Messiah would be in the Galilee of the nations. We see during Jesus' ministry that He went into Gentile areas to Samaritans who the Jews saw as unclean and to Roman officials and soldiers (John 4, and Mark chapters 5 and 8). The whole of God's plan was salvation for the entire world. Gentiles are grafted in, they are as much a part and seal of God's people as any Israelite (Romans 11). Jesus is specific that He has chosen those who are Christians. Jesus specifically says this in John 15:16. The Apostle Paul backs this up in his letter to the Ephesians (1:1-3). It is pretty clear in both testaments that Gentiles were meant to be a part of God's people from the very beginning of time.

The idea that Israelites are the only people who are God's people is a caricature of Christian belief rather than the truth of Christian belief.

I don't doubt God's Word because He has remained faithful to His promises for thousands of years, and has remained faithful to me even when I haven't been faithful to Him. God's track record through history is pretty solid.

Leroy42 wrote: »

So you are basically just lucky? You say you have a high view of yourself and then say it undeserved. So its not you that is worth anything, simply that God has bestowed you value. What past are you talking about. Your past doesn't need to be owned. AS you say you are a chosen child of God, you can basically do anything and still get to heaven. God doesn't care about your past, only that you believe going forward.

Christians don't believe in "luck". Christians believe in a God who is in control and in a God who has spoken and acted in human history. God has actively intervened in my life to show me who He is through the Scriptures, and He has shown me that I like everyone else in this creation stands guilty before Him and that we need a Saviour. God created humanity and it was good. It is humanity who has rebelled against His Word. God loves humanity so much that He has sent and has given His Son as an all sufficient sacrifice for sin. That shows how much He cares about us even while we were still sinners, He still came to rescue us through His Son (Romans 5:8-9).

If God has acted in a Christians life you will see the fruit of that in their lives and in their conduct. God will change them to be more like Jesus. This is what the Bible calls sanctification. Or in layman's terms being set apart from the world. He promises us that He will finish the work that He started (Philippians 1:6). Christians will be presented mature in Christ when He comes (Colossians 1:28).

God does care about our past. That's why He sent Jesus Christ to die in our place for our sins, and it is why He is at work to change the heart of the Christian believer to love Him more than anything in the world. The world tells us that in order to become better people we need to manage ourselves better. But actually, that isn't enough. God needs to deal with the root of our sin by changing our hearts to love Him more.

Leroy42 wrote: »

But the key underlying rule, beyond anything else, is that you must love God and follow Jesus. You can be as loving and nice as you can but without those you aren't getting to heaven. That is your believe isn't it?

Yes, and no. It would be true to say this if faith was a work. It isn't a work. It is a gift that God gives us.

Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV wrote:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

God helps us to live for Him. We can ask God for help to change our hearts to love Him more than the world. If I had to muster up that myself, I could not do it. But God can help me be the person I want Him to be.

Leroy42 wrote: »

So you can do whatever you want once you love God! I still don't understand why we need the Christ bit in the middle. WE had God before hand and it seems God just put more obstacles in the way.

The reason why you don't understand it is because you ignore the consequences of sin in separating us from a holy God. If you understood this you wouldn't have any difficulty in understanding it.

I suspect for you it is more about wanting to understand it and see it. If you continue the pretence of suggesting that humanity is essentially good when all the evidence shows that our world is broken because of sin then you won't understand it. Not because the Gospel hasn't been clear, but because you don't want to hear it.

Leroy42 wrote: »

I have constructed a view of God based on my interpretation of scriptures. Exactly the same as you just I came to different conclusion. You seem happy to reconcile a vengeful, angry God with one of Love. You seem to be able to accept a God that is happy to have whole villages and the inhabitants destroyed, with no mercy, with a forgiving God.

From what I can see in this post you're being contrary for the sake of it. The point about God coming for the Israelites is a perfect example. If you are as familiar with the Scriptures as you say you are you would know that Jesus came into the world for Gentiles as much as Jews. You'd know that the prophets point to Gentiles believing in the Lord in the Old Testament. You'd know all of these things.

I don't have to "reconcile" anything. A God who lets sin go unpunished isn't "loving". In the same way that we demand justice in an world that is unjust, God demands the same. It isn't loving to allow wickedness to go unpunished. This is why God ultimately had to send His Son.

The second you see how wretched sin is, you will understand why God's perfectly justified to judge sinners. I think the problem is that you don't want to. Not that it is somehow intellectually irreconcilable. That is a something that you need to settle with God. It isn't an intellectual issue. It is an issue of your heart. I won't play games with you in this regard. I have to be clear that this is something you need to face up to. This isn't trivial. It is serious.

Leroy42 wrote: »

I completely understand it. You have convined yourself that you are special, and that everyone else on the earth that doesn't believe deserves eternal punishment.

No - again, another caricature which isn't based on the God of the Bible. The Bible is clear that I am as much a sinner as anyone else (Luke 13:1-5, Romans 3:9-18). The good news is that salvation is available to all who believe (Romans 3:21-26).

Leroy42 wrote: »

And what does God want you to be? How can you be certain that you are now what he wants you to be? Suicide bombers believe they are doing Allahs will. Is your belief as strong as theirs?

God tells us what He wants us to be and how He wants us to live very clearly in Scripture in numerous passages. He wants us to be people who live like Jesus, sacrificially for others, and who make Him known in this world because they love Him and they love others.

Much better than the silly suicide bomb comparison that you've presented.

You need to show me that you're willing to take this seriously rather than just a game.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Delirium

Autochange wrote: »

Hell dosnt exist. You are safe enough.

MOD NOTE

From the charter:

Arguments such as "There is no God, therefore..." or "The Bible is full of contradictions, therefore..." will not be tolerated. Don't start off with a conclusion which your audience is bound to disagree with!

Please bear this in mind in any future postings.

Thanks for your attention.

Leroy42

Solodeogloia, I was going to write a line by line response and then I realised that you had already done it for me. Your answer has so many contractions, "yeah but this", "God loves so me so everything is ok".

I would just ask that you read you previous answer without the faith hat on and just read what you are saying. One example.

On the Israelites being chosen and not me - Yes and no. You're right that Abraham's descendants were in a special covenant relationship with God. Isaac was chosen over Ishmael and Jacob over Esau. This is true. God used Israel as a part of His salvation plan.

What's also true however is that God would bless all the peoples on the earth through this line (Genesis 12:3).

So God did choose the Israelites, not you, but he later changed his mind and now it does include you and everyone. Was he lying to the Israelites? Just messing with them to get them to do what he wanted? Wars have been fought, people have died because people think they are chosen by God, and you then turn around and say that he changed his mind! And you don't see an issue with that? Either that or you believe we are all descendents of this line, meaning we are all the same. So why pick out the Israelites as the chosen people. They are the only people!

I am 100% taking this seriously. I have, or at least tried, to be respectful and understanding of peoples positions. If you go back to my posts you will see that I ask questions. I suffer from the same as everyone else that bias sometimes gets in my way, but I try really hard to avoid that, I fail sometimes.

What I struggle to take seriously is when a response is given that contradicts itself. Israel is the chosen people, but so is everyone else. What am I, or anyone else, supposed to take from that?

Peregrinus

Leroy, what do you think God chose the Israelites for?

Solo, what do you think God chose the Israelites for?

I suspect you both have different answers to this question, and bringing this out may cast some light on the misunderstandings between you.

Leroy42

Peregrinus wrote: »

Leroy, what do you think God chose the Israelites for?

My reading of it is that they are his chosen people, the people he sides with. He will look after them, be on their side. He will lead them out of Egypt etc. He will be with them in battles, bring death to their enemies.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Solo, what do you think God chose the Israelites for?

I suspect you both have different answers to this question, and bringing this out may cast some light on the misunderstandings between you.

The point though is not the Israelites. It is just to point out that Solo claims to be chosen yet the bible claims otherwise. I have often struggled to understand why Christians have rejected Judaism when it was so apparent that God had chosen those people. The along came Jesus and suddenly everything changed.

solodeogloria

Peregrinus wrote: »

Leroy, what do you think God chose the Israelites for?

Solo, what do you think God chose the Israelites for?

I suspect you both have different answers to this question, and bringing this out may cast some light on the misunderstandings between you.

Good morning!

I was very clear. God chose the Israelites in order to bring salvation to the ends of the earth. This is what I wrote in my posts. You can read Romans 9 to 11 to see this has brought salvation to both Jews and Gentiles. You can see in this passage that this is the way that God has always worked and that this was His aim from the beginning of time itself.

Leroy42 seems to think that because God chose the Israelites specifically at a particular time that it means that God doesn't choose Christians specifically to be His today. He does, and the Bible is clear on this in Ephesians 1 for example.

The Bible says both are true. This isn't a contradiction. A contradiction is when one statement or proposition negates or nullifies the truth of the other.

This is why I would recommend a good Bible overview. That is if Leroy42 is serious about knowing God because as I said previously this isn't a game.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Leroy42

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

I was very clear. God chose the Israelites in order to bring salvation to the ends of the earth. This is what I wrote in my posts. You can read Romans 9 to 11 to see this has brought salvation to both Jews and Gentiles. You can see in this passage that this is the way that God has always worked and that this was His aim from the beginning of time itself.

Leroy42 seems to think that because God chose the Israelites specifically at a particular time that it means that God doesn't choose Christians specifically to be His today. He does, and the Bible is clear on this in Ephesians 1 for example.

The Bible says both are true. This isn't a contradiction. A contradiction is when one statement or proposition negates or nullifies the truth of the other.

This is why I would recommend a good Bible overview. That is if Leroy42 is serious about knowing God because as I said previously this isn't a game.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I'm sorry but you really can't understand where the confusion is coming from?

In one part God says that he has chosen the Israelites as his chosen people. Great, They go off and live their lives in worship to God happy in the knowledge that they are close to God.

Then God turns around and says that now everyone is actually the chosen people, once you believe in Jesus, which strangely enough the Israelites wouldn't.

So now we have the situation where there are two chosen peoples, one which must believe in Jesus and the other who don't have to. Are they now longer the chosen people? Because they seem to think they are.

And have you not asked yourself if God so can quickly change the rules, what is to stop him doing it again. How can you be sure that Jesus was telling the truth, since that truth seems to be different than the truth up to that point.

Why did he tell the Israelites they were the chosen people when he knew that they weren't any more chosen than anyone else.

The reason we got on to this topic, which is academic, is that you claimed you were chosen and I pointed out that the Israelites were actually the chosen people. You seem happy to simply dismiss this as a proclamation at a point in time, not to be taken as the actual position. Which open up the real possibility that God could decide that believing in Jesus is no longer the key. Will you simply change you mind?

This is why I would recommend a good Bible overview. That is if Leroy42 is serious about knowing God because as I said previously this isn't a game.

There are thousands of different versions of christianity in the world, why do you think another reading of the bible will clear things up when it is clear even the most studied scholars differ on the meaning.

This is the second time you have alluded to me playing a game? On what basis are you asking that question. I already answered it the last post.

solodeogloria

Leroy42 wrote: »

I'm sorry but you really can't understand where the confusion is coming from?

In one part God says that he has chosen the Israelites as his chosen people. Great, They go off and live their lives in worship to God happy in the knowledge that they are close to God.

Then God turns around and says that now everyone is actually the chosen people, once you believe in Jesus, which strangely enough the Israelites wouldn't.

So now we have the situation where there are two chosen peoples, one which must believe in Jesus and the other who don't have to. Are they now longer the chosen people? Because they seem to think they are.

And have you not asked yourself if God so can quickly change the rules, what is to stop him doing it again. How can you be sure that Jesus was telling the truth, since that truth seems to be different than the truth up to that point.

Why did he tell the Israelites they were the chosen people when he knew that they weren't any more chosen than anyone else.

The reason we got on to this topic, which is academic, is that you claimed you were chosen and I pointed out that the Israelites were actually the chosen people. You seem happy to simply dismiss this as a proclamation at a point in time, not to be taken as the actual position. Which open up the real possibility that God could decide that believing in Jesus is no longer the key. Will you simply change you mind?



There are thousands of different versions of christianity in the world, why do you think another reading of the bible will clear things up when it is clear even the most studied scholars differ on the meaning.

This is the second time you have alluded to me playing a game? On what basis are you asking that question. I already answered it the last post.

Good morning!

Last post for today.

Paul answers your question in respect to the Jews in Romans 9 to 11.

There's no contradiction. God specifically chose the Israelites to bring salvation to the ends of the earth. That's consistent.

There's nothing academic about your objection. The misunderstanding comes in the phrase "Then God turns around". No He didn't. His plan was always to bring salvation to the ends of the earth through the Israelites and more specifically through Jesus. We see that in the first book of the Bible and throughout the whole Old Testament.

I'm asking that question because it doesn't seem that you're interested in considering the answers that are given.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

MrPudding

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

Last post for today.

Paul answers your question in respect to the Jews in Romans 9 to 11.

There's no contradiction. God specifically chose the Israelites to bring salvation to the ends of the earth. That's consistent.

There's nothing academic about your objection. The misunderstanding comes in the phrase "Then God turns around". No He didn't. His plan was always to bring salvation to the ends of the earth through the Israelites and more specifically through Jesus. We see that in the first book of the Bible and throughout the whole Old Testament.

I'm asking that question because it doesn't seem that you're interested in considering the answers that are given.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

He is clearly interested, as am I, but you seem incapable of providing a sensible answer, or even, apparently being able to see the problem with what you are saying. We are considering your answers, but your answers make no sense and really aren't answers at all. I would have more respect for you if you simply said, "yeah, it doesn't really make sense, and I can see where you are coming from, but I just believe it for reasons I can't explain." Believe it or not, that I could understand. But repeatedly saying the same thing, and saying it makes sense, where it clearly doesn't, and then saying the other person just doesn't understand, is not helpful.

MrP

solodeogloria

MrPudding wrote: »

He is clearly interested, as am I, but you seem incapable of providing a sensible answer, or even, apparently being able to see the problem with what you are saying. We are considering your answers, but your answers make no sense and really aren't answers at all. I would have more respect for you if you simply said, "yeah, it doesn't really make sense, and I can see where you are coming from, but I just believe it for reasons I can't explain." Believe it or not, that I could understand. But repeatedly saying the same thing, and saying it makes sense, where it clearly doesn't, and then saying the other person just doesn't understand, is not helpful.

MrP

Good morning!

Respectfully I disagree. The poster claims it's contradictory to say that God chose the Israelites to be His in the past and that God chooses Christians to be His today.

It's nothing of the sort unless you wish to provide a reason why.

Paul answers the question head on in Romans 9-11 which is why I've asked Leroy to have a read and consider what it says. I'm happy to answer whatever he says but I'm also entitled to say that something isn't contradictory when it isn't.

I'm not much concerned with what I have to say but with what God says.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

EirWatchr

Leroy42 wrote: »

Peregrinus wrote: »

Leroy, what do you think God chose the Israelites for?

My reading of it is that they are his chosen people, the people he sides with. He will look after them, be on their side. He will lead them out of Egypt etc. He will be with them in battles, bring death to their enemies.

If you add to that - and the people chosen from which the messiah, the Christ, would emerge - and you have the full picture of the Gospel. There are numerous instances in the NT where Jesus uses OT Judaic scripture to link himself to the Jewish messianic prophesies.

Leroy42 wrote: »

I have often struggled to understand why Christians have rejected Judaism when it was so apparent that God had chosen those people.

It's not that Christians have rejected Judaism. Judaism rejected Jesus as the Christ Messiah (and presumably still wait for the arrival of one). Judaism still sees itself as the chosen people, but (in my understanding) its difficult to convert too - its really still for people born/married into Judaism or qualified under Jewish law (i.e. one of the chosen people, as they still see it).

Christianity is less insular, more inclusive, open to anyone who accepts Jesus - Jews and Gentiles - above and beyond the orthodoxy of Jewish precepts (it's one of the reasons why Jews then rejected Jesus). Hence the "Good News" of the Gospel - that Jesus came to open salvation to all, not just the Jews, that we are all chosen.

antiskeptic

Leroy42 wrote: »

In one part God says that he has chosen the Israelites as his chosen people. Great, They go off and live their lives in worship to God happy in the knowledge that they are close to God.

Then God turns around and says that now everyone is actually the chosen people, once you believe in Jesus, which strangely enough the Israelites wouldn't.

So now we have the situation where there are two chosen peoples, one which must believe in Jesus and the other who don't have to. Are they now longer the chosen people? Because they seem to think they are.

It is said that the New Testament makes patent what in the Old lies latent. I also find the picture of Russian nesting dolls helpful.

-

The Israelites were a chosen people in the sense of a small Russian nesting doll*. Although they look in many ways like the larger Russian doll (Christianity) into which they are ultimately nested, their function is a more restricted one. Their experiences shadows/hints at at a larger, overarching reality. Compare:

The Israelites good relationship to God is based on their adherence to the Law. If they follow the Law, all will be well

vs.

The Christians good relationship with God is based on Christs adherence to the Law on behalf of the Christian. Because Christ fulfills the Law perfectly, all will be well for the Christian.



The Israelites are set aside and maintained as a holy people. A people fit to have a holy God reside amongst them. The setting aside is accomplished in the physical realm via laws, religious observances, temples, Holy of Holies (where God resides in the temple), sacrifices.

vs.

The Christians are set aside and maintained as a holy people. A people fit to have God reside in them. This setting aside is accomplished in the spiritual realm. Christ fulfills the law, the individual Christian is a temple in which God resides by his spirit, Christ the sacrifice, etc



The Israelites led through the promised land physically. Facing trials, rebelling against God, desiring to return to Egypt

vs.

The Christian being led to the promised land physically and spiritually. Facing trials, rebelling, desiring to return to sin.


The Israelite experience is a foreshadowing in lower case what is to occur in capital letters. There is no issue with God having chosen them in this minor key regard, whilst having a chosen people in major, fullest regard. Indeed, the major key salvation available to the Christian was also available to people since the start - e.g. Abraham. The overarching programme of salvation was running, even as the hinted at version was playing out.

Why did he tell the Israelites they were the chosen people when he knew that they weren't any more chosen than anyone else.

Is it clearer now?


* The Israelites aren't the first of the dolls. You can see the same arrangement made with Adam as with the Israelites - "if you follow my commands you will be at peace with me".

Leroy42

Thank you for the replies.

It is not a contraction in that he can choose as many chosen people as he likes, it is a contraction in that you believe everything in the bible except for when then bible changes its mind. If everyone is the chosen people then doesn’t that kind of lessen the impact?

I like the Russian dolls explanation. However it falls down when you consider that they rejected Jesus as the son of God. In your example, each one builds on the last, but in this case the next doll caused a massive rupture in the system leading to two distinct dolls.

Was this Gods plan, to force his people into separate camps? Although it does tie into a God that would cause division for all peoples because they built a tower.

I find it odd that God’s chosen people would not recognise Jesus as God. The very people that he sent Jesus down for couldn’t accept him? And that God did nothing to them for rejecting him? We are asked to give our hearts to Jesus, or face eternal damnation, yet his chosen people had first hand contact with Jesus and rejected him and? Nothing. No plagues, no destruction of Galilee. God seemed to just accept that his chosen people had rejected his greatest gift.

Surely they must now all be damned?

_Brian

Yes, actually even happier.

solodeogloria

Leroy42 wrote: »

Thank you for the replies.

It is not a contraction in that he can choose as many chosen people as he likes, it is a contraction in that you believe everything in the bible except for when then bible changes its mind. If everyone is the chosen people then doesn’t that kind of lessen the impact?

I like the Russian dolls explanation. However it falls down when you consider that they rejected Jesus as the son of God. In your example, each one builds on the last, but in this case the next doll caused a massive rupture in the system leading to two distinct dolls.

Was this Gods plan, to force his people into separate camps? Although it does tie into a God that would cause division for all peoples because they built a tower.

I find it odd that God’s chosen people would not recognise Jesus as God. The very people that he sent Jesus down for couldn’t accept him? And that God did nothing to them for rejecting him? We are asked to give our hearts to Jesus, or face eternal damnation, yet his chosen people had first hand contact with Jesus and rejected him and? Nothing. No plagues, no destruction of Galilee. God seemed to just accept that his chosen people had rejected his greatest gift.

Surely they must now all be damned?

Good morning!

It seems like you missed the bit where I said that God hasn't changed His mind because it was always His plan. You can see this in Ephesians 1. If this is true, and Biblically it seems to be, then there is no such contradiction.

As for the chosen people not accepting Jesus as God - you can see that many did in Romans 9 to 11. However like with all things, some people harden their hearts and some people hear. This is exactly what we were told would happen in the prophets particularly in Isaiah.

As for God doing "nothing" to those who reject Him. I'd recommend a reading of Romans 1 particularly verses 18 to 32 and 2 Peter chapter 3.

The beautiful thing about the Bible is that it already answers these sorts of questions. It's always better to see it in the Bible rather than hearing some opinion of mine.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

antiskeptic

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is not a contraction in that he can choose as many chosen people as he likes,

The focus of the choosing, being different, isn't a contradiction. The Israelites were chosen for a specific purpose (to be the ceremonially appropriate vessel through which Christ would come). The Christian is chosen in the sense of God choosing what to apply to them. He choses to reside in them by his holy spirit, he chooses that they shall have the righteousness of Christ credited to their account, etc.

it is a contraction in that you believe everything in the bible except for when then bible changes its mind. If everyone is the chosen people then doesn’t that kind of lessen the impact?

Hopefully the above resolves the contradiction. For example: everyone is a chosen person in the sense that God choses to make his salvation available to all. Another, and not contradictory way in which people can be chosen.

I like the Russian dolls explanation. However it falls down when you consider that they rejected Jesus as the son of God. In your example, each one builds on the last, but in this case the next doll caused a massive rupture in the system leading to two distinct dolls.

God chosing the Israelites as a holy vessel through which Christ would come isn't affected by their rejection. The mission was to create a suitable vessel for his arrival. Not a vessel for his acceptance.

The dolls are distinct - in that they are different dolls. The nestedness comes in the way the one is similar (but not the same as) the other. Chosen people / holy / upholders of God's law. Same principles applicable to both sets of chosen people but very different in essence (e.g. physical Israel (the Israelites) is similar but by no means the same as spiritual Israel (the saved)

Was this Gods plan, to force his people into separate camps? Although it does tie into a God that would cause division for all peoples because they built a tower.

There are only two camps: the lost (whether Jew or Gentile) and the found (whether Jew or Gentile). God didn't create that division - other than making a way of salvation open to all men who were lost since Adam. All were lost until God began saving - such as to create a division between men (lost/found)

There are no other relevant divisions than that.

I find it odd that God’s chosen people would not recognise Jesus as God.

The reason for their being separated out is explained above. They were in a better position than most to recognise Christ. But ultimately, the only person who will recognize Christ is someone who is saved and has their spiritual eyes opened. Whether Jew or Gentile.

The very people that he sent Jesus down for couldn’t accept him?

Jesus was sent for all.

And that God did nothing to them for rejecting him?

One could argue that God lifted the hand that had protected them up to that point. It wasn't long afterwards (66 ad) that they were scattered to the winds by Roman persecution.

We are asked to give our hearts to Jesus, or face eternal damnation, yet his chosen people had first hand contact with Jesus and rejected him and? Nothing. No plagues, no destruction of Galilee. God seemed to just accept that his chosen people had rejected his greatest gift.

I wouldn't say we are asked to give our hearts to God or face damnation. I would say we face damnation unless we submit to God's attempt to save us. We don't have to do anything, as such, to be saved. Rather, we will be led to salvation unless we find ways to evade God's attempt.

It's a fine distinction. Damnation arises out of an expression of our will unto saying "no" in the face of God's attempt to lead us to salvation.

Thus: salvation by God alone. Damnation by man alone.

Surely they must now all be damned?[/QUOTE]