Population Explosion! Government plan possible 1 million more Irish within 20 years!

The_Kew_Tour

Cina wrote: »

if true, that's pretty sad, considering it's largely the Western World who have f*cked over Africa for the last few centuries, and it's the Western World's extreme wealth and greediness that's going to cause large parts of their countries to be uninhabitable in the not so distant future.

Also, when the going gets bad, how are we going to stop them exactly?

Ireland per capital has given more money to Africa then any Western European Country.

What do you want us to do? we created no war there.

If you're so concerned why don't you put them up in your own house.

Cina

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Ireland per capital has given more money to Africa then any Western European Country.

What do you want us to do? we created no war there.

If you're so concerned why don't you put them up in your own house.

that poster was taking about Europe in general, not Ireland.

Perhaps, I don't know, read the posts first?

The_Kew_Tour

Cina wrote: »

that poster was taking about Europe in general, not Ireland.

Perhaps, I don't know, read the posts first?

But its only about 3-4 countries in Western Europe. I mean come on. I want to help, but not everyone is poor in Africa either. Plenty live in good wealth from when I was there.

Western Europe has taken in Millions already. What about Asia or America or South America?

Grayson

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

If you're so concerned why don't you put them up in your own house.

Surprised it took 4 pages to get to this point.

Mr. teddywinkles

Cina wrote: »

that poster was taking about Europe in general, not Ireland.

Perhaps, I don't know, read the posts first?

Corruption in African nations is rife. If people stood up to this. It might be a start.

Cina

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

But its only about 3-4 countries in Western Europe. I mean come on. I want to help, but not everyone is poor in Africa either. Plenty live in good wealth from when I was there.

Western Europe has taken in Millions already. What about Asia or America or South America?

Africa was just an example.

Anyway, is it really so bad? Europe has an ageing populations with low birth rates and many experts think we are on the brink of a crisis in Europe because of it. Those countries have young populations and because of climate change may not be able to support them by the time our implosion becomes a huge concern. Seems like a bit of a no brainer to anyone who isn't backwards thinking?

backspin.

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

And where pray tell is all the work for these people going to materialize from

Or the money to pay for their welfare.

Mr. teddywinkles

Cina wrote: »

Africa was just an example.

Anyway, is it really so bad? We have ageing populations with low birth rates and many experts think we are on the brink of a crisis in Europe because of it. Those countries have young populations and because of climate change may not be able to support them by the time our implosion becomes a huge concern. Seems like a bit of a no brainer to anyone who isn't backwards thinking?

So drastically drop the living standards in more developed countries. A no brainer? Why do you think Britain wants out.

The_Kew_Tour

Cina wrote: »

Africa was just an example.

Anyway, is it really so bad? Europe has an ageing populations with low birth rates and many experts think we are on the brink of a crisis in Europe because of it. Those countries have young populations and because of climate change may not be able to support them by the time our implosion becomes a huge concern. Seems like a bit of a no brainer to anyone who isn't backwards thinking?

Its not black and white, they're many solutions to problems like this, unless you cant think outside a box?

Cina

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

So drastically drop the living standards in more developed countries. A no brained?

Brainer*

you're not getting this.

Increasing immigration doesn't lead to lower standards of living in developing countries. In fact it's been proven time and time again it helps. They come in, get the jobs we won't take, and pay the taxes our seniors and unemployed do not. If it's handled well then it works.

Plus I'm not saying we just take in a million people straight away, obviously that would be daft.

I'm not saying we should definitely do it either, or it's the only way to solve our problems, I'm saying it's potentially a solution to a potentially very serious issue for Europe.

Cina

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Its not black and white, they're many solutions to problems like this, unless you cant think outside a box?

Enlighten me.

The_Kew_Tour

Cina wrote: »

Brainer*

you're not getting this.

Increasing immigration doesn't lead to lower standards of living in developing countries. In fact it's been proven time and time again it helps. They come in, get the jobs we won't take, and pay the taxes our seniors and unemployed do not. If it's handled well then it works.

Plus I'm not saying we just take in a million people straight away, obviously that would be daft.

I'm not saying we should definitely do it either, or it's the only way to solve our problems, I'm saying it's potentially a solution to a potentially very serious issue for Europe.

They take the jobs we wont take? What a pile of cock.

Seriously.

Cina

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

They take the jobs we wont take? What a pile of cock.

Seriously.

Great response, great argument, 10/10. You should join a debate team!

Mr. teddywinkles

Cina wrote: »

Brainer*

you're not getting this.

Increasing immigration doesn't lead to lower standards of living in developing countries. In fact it's been proven time and time again it helps. They come in, get the jobs we won't take, and pay the taxes our seniors and unemployed do not. If it's handled well then it works.

Plus I'm not saying we just take in a million people straight away, obviously that would be daft.

I'm not saying we should definitely do it either, or it's the only way to solve our problems, I'm saying it's potentially a solution to a potentially very serious issue for Europe.

So that's why loads of local born Irish inhabitants left this country over the years because we didn't have loads upon loads of people here. Think your onto something. More than likely on something but hey let's keep this farce going.

VinLieger

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

They take the jobs we wont take? What a pile of cock.

Seriously.

Back during the boom what accents did you hear from the staff in mcdonalds? Irish people regardless of how long they were unemployed considered themselves above a lowly fast food job so the foreigners came in and did that work for us

Mr. teddywinkles

VinLieger wrote: »

Back during the boom what accents did you hear from the staff in mcdonalds? Irish people regardless of how long they were unemployed considered themselves above a lowly fast food job so the foreigners came in and did that work for us

Loads of Irish in filling stations round the country. Most MacDonalds Iv been to. Mostly Irish serving me. Why this bs keeps getting trotted out is amazing.

The_Kew_Tour

Red Weed wrote: »

Who even believes this anymore? Peter Sutherland?

Its best just to give up and let their 1 option be the only one.

The_Kew_Tour

VinLieger wrote: »

Back during the boom what accents did you hear from the staff in mcdonalds? Irish people regardless of how long they were unemployed considered themselves above a lowly fast food job so the foreigners came in and did that work for us

Ooops you fell.

I worked in Macdonalds from age 17-20 to get me through college. Bar 1 English person and 2 from Ukraine it was 50 person Employed and I let you have guess where they were from.;)

I see loads of companies not hiring Irish(including my last employer) be it Students and Employed as its cheaper to look elsewhere.

and with that bunch of BS you wrote time to let ye too it.:)

NoCrackHaving

The problem for government's across the world is that the
they're relying on an old fashioned economic model that has become unsustainable - i.e - continuous economic growth in order to support aging population's.

The rise of automation and the almost certain necessity of universal basic income being rolled out will totally upend this tottering house of cards economic system. Constantly promoting immigration in order to prop up an aging population in order to fund pensions is a zero sum game as it assumes that all new immigrants will somehow be filling the jobs that will be taken by robots.

NoCrackHaving

Cina wrote: »

Brainer*

you're not getting this.

Increasing immigration doesn't lead to lower standards of living in developing countries. In fact it's been proven time and time again it helps. They come in, get the jobs we won't take, and pay the taxes our seniors and unemployed do not. If it's handled well then it works.

Plus I'm not saying we just take in a million people straight away, obviously that would be daft.

I'm not saying we should definitely do it either, or it's the only way to solve our problems, I'm saying it's potentially a solution to a potentially very serious issue for Europe.

Automation and robotics means this old economic model of immigrants doing unskilled and low paid is dying, it's on the way out. Think of jobs like working in McDonalds, driving taxi's, running corer shops, factory assembly line work etc. that have generally relied upon a significant amount of immigrants to meet their employment requirements. These jobs are all going down the automation route and there aren't any unskilled jobs coming along to replace them.

Are Am Eye

Generic Insolence wrote: »

be better off getting rid of MacDonalds..

Hold on now. Take it easy. We're getting irrational here.
Completely hysterical. Listen to what you're saying.
Listen to yourself.

Mr. teddywinkles

NoCrackHaving wrote: »

The problem for government's across the world is that the
they're relying on an old fashioned economic model that has become unsustainable - i.e - continuous economic growth in order to support aging population's.

The rise of automation and the almost certain necessity of universal basic income being rolled out will totally upend this tottering house of cards economic system. Constantly promoting immigration in order to prop up an aging population in order to fund pensions is a zero sum game as it assumes that all new immigrants will somehow be filling the jobs that will be taken by robots.

In other words they're clueless or don't give a toss.

Grayson

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

So that's why loads of local born Irish inhabitants left this country over the years because we didn't have loads upon loads of people here. Think your onto something. More than likely on something but hey let's keep this farce going.

We weren't a developed country back then. So we Irish moved to more developed countries and did crappy jobs there.

Grayson

Generic Insolence wrote: »

Odd that you consider building a 'crappy' job.

It was in the 60's. In the 00's here it wasn't. Better safety and better money.

Now you're finished trying to make me seem snobbish, you could try and rebut my point.

Mr. teddywinkles

Grayson wrote: »

We weren't a developed country back then. So we Irish moved to more developed countries and did crappy jobs there.

Were talking just within the last 10 years. We also moved to places of opportunity. Wouldn't consider Ireland the land of opportunity now would you. Granted depends on your field and education

Grayson

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Were talking just within the last 10 years.

You said "over the years" so I assumed you meant "Over the years".

What time period specifically?

murphthesmurf

Samaris wrote: »

Massive factory in Drumlin, manufacturing top of the line Irish people for the domestic and export market.

Do you have an address for me, I'd like to send in a cv for a job on the inpregnatation line. I'd better get practicing for the interview and eating lots of protien and zinc.

Ulysses Gaze

Cina wrote: »

Population implosion is a serious issue facing Europe for the future. We're simply not producing enough babies to cope with the life expectancy going up and up.

I can't really see that changing, either. I expect at some point, Europe, and Ireland, will start letting a lot more migrants in, especially as their countries become more and more uninhabitable.

Population implosion will not be a problem once Automation starts wiping out more and more jobs. As it is going to do. No matter what people think.

We will not need a bunch of toilet cleaners (replaced by self cleaning toilets), street sweepers (replaced by automated cleaning machines) and taxi drivers (replaced by autonomous vehicles) from the Third World. Retail is also going to automate significantly.

Besides, as the Germans are finding out, most of these new Germans have not got the skills necessary to add positively to the economy. And even if they do, they will only have subsistence living and will require additional benefits to survive. And let's not forget that family reunion will add even more unskilled, elderly mouths to feed.

Population and workforce replacement by unskilled people from the Third World is the most bat**** crazy idea being thrown around by politicians.
And by some posters here.

And it will not solve a pension problem.

The_Kew_Tour

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Population implosion will not be a problem once Automation starts wiping out more and more jobs. As it is going to do. No matter what people think.

We will not need a bunch of toilet cleaners (replaced by self cleaning toilets), street sweepers (replaced by automated cleaning machines) and taxi drivers (replaced by autonomous vehicles) from the Third World. Retail is also going to automate significantly.

Besides, as the Germans are finding out, most of these new Germans have not got the skills necessary to add positively to the economy. And even if they do, they will only have subsistence living and will require additional benefits to survive. And let's not forget that family reunion will add even more unskilled, elderly mouths to feed.

Population and workforce replacement by unskilled people from the Third World is the most bat**** crazy idea being thrown around by politicians.
And by some posters here.

And it will not solve a pension problem.

+1

to be fair it still good for chuckle when people bring it up though and call everyone else backward:D:pac:

Ulysses Gaze

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

+1

to be fair it still good for chuckle when people bring it up though and call everyone else backward:D:pac:

I have absolutely no problem with bringing in skilled migrants from countries like India where they are graduating millions of tech graduates a year. These skilled people would add to the economy immediately.

In fact, we make it incredibly difficult for these people to get into the country and then stay here.

BillyBobBS

Tayschren wrote: »

Old people cost feck all, lets be clear that the real issue is not the state pension which is perfectly affordable even in the future, its the public sector pensions that will sink Ireland

I work with an ex Gardai who retired at 53. Massive lump sum circa 90k, half his finishing salary until death (around 575 a week at present pegged to inflation) and he now has a full time job with us. His wife works in revenue and is retiring in 3 years and i guess will be receiving something akin to what he get's. We are all quick to bash the dole scroungers (rightfully) but they aren't the only problem.

These type of lotto winning pensions are unsustainable but we all know no politician will touch the issue with a barge pole as it's turkey's voting for xmas.

Amazing the way none of our "fair and balanced" media will question it either RTE in particular.

BillyBobBS

BillyBobBS wrote: »

I work with an ex Gardai who retired at 53. Massive lump sum circa 90k, half his finishing salary until death (around 575 a week at present pegged to inflation) and he now has a full time job with us. His wife works in revenue and is retiring in 3 years and i guess will be receiving something akin to what he get's. We are all quick to bash the dole scroungers (rightfully) but they aren't the only problem.

These type of lotto winning pensions are unsustainable but we all know no politician will touch the issue with a barge pole as it's turkey's voting for xmas.

Amazing the way none of our "fair and balanced" media will question it either RTE in particular.

RTE won't question it because they have equally huge pensions that they are protecting!

stevedublin

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Population implosion will not be a problem once Automation starts wiping out more and more jobs. As it is going to do. No matter what people think.

somebody's been watching too much sci-fi.
If the comics/TV from the 50s and 60s are to be believed, we should all be taking trips to our holiday homes on the moon in our flying cars.

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I have absolutely no problem with bringing in skilled migrants from countries like India where they are graduating millions of tech graduates a year. These skilled people would add to the economy immediately.

In fact, we make it incredibly difficult for these people to get into the country and then stay here.

Ireland has plenty of skilled workers from our own population (the Irish).
The country probably need more unskilled workers going forward though.

stevedublin

stevedublin wrote: »

somebody's been watching too much sci-fi.
If the comics/TV from the 50s and 60s are to be believed, we should all be taking trips to our holiday homes on the moon in our flying cars.



Ireland has plenty of skilled workers from our own population (the Irish).
The country probably need more unskilled workers going forward though.

What jobs will all these unskilled people be doing that you envisage we will need ?

stevedublin

Deleted User wrote: »

What jobs will all these unskilled people be doing that you envisage we will need ?

the less skilled ones
Think of the jobs that Mexicans have in the US

Possibly 1 million more within 20 years, not totally unrealistic IMO.
Population in 1997 was 3.7m, population now is 4.7m.

BillyBobBS

BillyBobBS wrote: »

I work with an ex Gardai who retired at 53. Massive lump sum circa 90k, half his finishing salary until death (around 575 a week at present pegged to inflation) .......................

These type of lotto winning pensions are unsustainable but we all know no politician will touch the issue with a barge pole as it's turkey's voting for xmas.

.................

A little over twice the dole or old age pension.
I'd not begrudge him it to be honest after doing his 30 years as a Garda.

There's people (with families) getting that and more who never worked a day in their lives.

topper75

NoCrackHaving wrote: »

The problem for government's across the world is that the
they're relying on an old fashioned economic model that has become unsustainable - i.e - continuous economic growth in order to support aging population's.

The rise of automation and the almost certain necessity of universal basic income being rolled out will totally upend this tottering house of cards economic system. Constantly promoting immigration in order to prop up an aging population in order to fund pensions is a zero sum game as it assumes that all new immigrants will somehow be filling the jobs that will be taken by robots.

NoCrackHaving wrote: »

Automation and robotics means this old economic model of immigrants doing unskilled and low paid is dying, it's on the way out. Think of jobs like working in McDonalds, driving taxi's, running corer shops, factory assembly line work etc. that have generally relied upon a significant amount of immigrants to meet their employment requirements. These jobs are all going down the automation route and there aren't any unskilled jobs coming along to replace them.

You seem to be one of a few people in this thread who has a proper grasp of the trajectories here.

Most on here seem to think of the future as 'the same as now, but later'.

It will be a very different economic and demographic setup here in 2 decades time and tech will be the key driver with that. We will be in a whole new landscape; it will be as different as now is from the 1960s.

As someone said to me there lately and put a shiver up my spine "If you are not automating someone else's job, your job can be automated!"

Mr. teddywinkles

stevedublin wrote: »

the less skilled ones
Think of the jobs that Mexicans have in the US

The trump wall comes to mind

topper75

BillyBobBS wrote: »

I work with an ex Gardai who retired at 53. Massive lump sum circa 90k, half his finishing salary until death (around 575 a week at present pegged to inflation) and he now has a full time job with us. His wife works in revenue and is retiring in 3 years and i guess will be receiving something akin to what he get's. We are all quick to bash the dole scroungers (rightfully) but they aren't the only problem.

These type of lotto winning pensions are unsustainable but we all know no politician will touch the issue with a barge pole as it's turkey's voting for xmas.

Amazing the way none of our "fair and balanced" media will question it either RTE in particular.

You're right. The electoral process (auction or porkbarrel politics) will not facilitate the necessary change.

Why these nettles (welfare and pensions) weren't grasped during the Troika period, I'll never know. Maybe they were scared of detriment to the Keynesian "multiplier" effect, ironically sticking with outdated theory that was just irrelevant toilet paper after the crash. The troika, like successive govts, just stuck it all on the never never and kicked the can down the road.

Thing is, xmas is coming, regardless of turkey ballots.

techdiver

Roll back tax individualisation and people will have more kids. It's nigh on impossible to raise a family on a single income at the moment because single income households are peanlised for no other reason than to force both parents into the workplace. Of course this was marketed as a piece of "equality" legislation, but all it did was reduce the capacity of one parent to actually raise their kids at home.

We have stopped at 2 kids because we cannot afford any more because my wife actually wants to stay at home. Also, with the cost of childcare it would make little sense for her to work. But because the government won't allow full joint assessment anymore (since McCreevy introduced it 1999) we lose out on thousands that could encourage us to have more children.

A Little Pony

They won't be Irish, that is for certain.

dav3

A Little Pony wrote: »

They won't be Irish, that is for certain.

Do you think they'll be mostly british due to the fact there'll be a united Ireland by 2040? We'll count them as Irish anyway.

A Little Pony

dav3 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

They won't be Irish, that is for certain.

Do you think they'll be mostly british due to the fact there'll be a united Ireland by 2040? We'll count them as Irish anyway.

You should go into comedy or writing fiction.

A Little Pony

dav3 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

They won't be Irish, that is for certain.

Do you think they'll be mostly british due to the fact there'll be a united Ireland by 2040? We'll count them as Irish anyway.

You should go into comedy or writing fiction.

tomwaterford

dav3 wrote: »

Do you think they'll be mostly british due to the fact there'll be a united Ireland by 2040? We'll count them as Irish anyway.

Their Irish already

Mr. teddywinkles

dav3 wrote: »

Do you think they'll be mostly british due to the fact there'll be a united Ireland by 2040? We'll count them as Irish anyway.

I'd say ya could walk in through the gates in Dublin airport these days and declare your Irish.

Ulysses Gaze

stevedublin wrote: »

somebody's been watching too much sci-fi.
If the comics/TV from the 50s and 60s are to be believed, we should all be taking trips to our holiday homes on the moon in our flying cars.



Ireland has plenty of skilled workers from our own population (the Irish).
The country probably need more unskilled workers going forward though.

Except that all the technology I mentioned is being or has been developed in places. Everything from Self-cleaning public toilets through to Robotic care assistants exists in Japan.

Tesla are trialing self-driving cars.

Even an Old Trot like Corbyn can see this coming down the line. If he becomes PM, he wants to stick a tax on corporations who let people go because of automation so that there is still money in the kitty to pay benefits.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/26/jeremy-corbyn-plans-tax-robots-automation-threat-workers/

Technological development is moving at incredible speed and we are looking at a new Industrial Revolution.

And as to your last point, there are a shortage of 20000 skilled IT people in Ireland.

Let us go out and fill those high end jobs that will actually bring money into the Tax coffers rather than fill low end jobs that pay minimum wage that falls under the taxable rate of allowance and then requires us to shell out benefits galore.

murphthesmurf

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Except that all the technology I mentioned is being or has been developed in places. Everything from Self-cleaning public toilets through to Robotic care assistants exists in Japan.

Tesla are trialing self-driving cars.

Even an Old Trot like Corbyn can see this coming down the line. If he becomes PM, he wants to stick a tax on corporations who let people go because of automation so that there is still money in the kitty to pay benefits.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/26/jeremy-corbyn-plans-tax-robots-automation-threat-workers/

Technological development is moving at incredible speed and we are looking at a new Industrial Revolution.

And as to your last point, there are a shortage of 20000 skilled IT people in Ireland.

Let us go out and fill those high end jobs that will actually bring money into the Tax coffers rather than fill low end jobs that pay minimum wage that falls under the taxable rate of allowance and then requires us to shell out benefits galore.

This is very true, progress in robotics and automation had been held back by computing power and AI capabilities (which was mostly limited by computing power also) for a long time. The miniaturisation of computer parts, and the huge increases in battery capacity have rapidly accelerated progress. Take a look on Youtube at some of the military robots that are being developed, they make the Terminator look like on of the Teletubbies.
These things will and are happening. Progress will speed up too as there are now huge amounts of money being invested. Intel is releasing a processor purely designed to run AI shortly, and Microsoft is set to release an AI programming language soon too. These things will bring AI development to whoever has the time and can afford the parts.
Pretty much all driving jobs will be gone in 20 years. Who knows what else.

Gerrup Outta Dat!

Melania Whining Self-starter wrote: »

It's not an exceptional expectation. Births in Ireland for the past 15 years have outnumbered Deaths by close to 40,000 per year.

Let's not forget the pre-famine population.