Calculation of contributory pension - Living in Germany

Udo235

Hi all, good evening from Germany!
I am a new member here but i have used this board before and found always  helpful information.
I am 55, German and I am married since over 25 years with an Irish girl :-)
From 1995 to 2008 I was guest in your country and worked in the beautiful County Clare.
At the financial crisis I was made redundant and we decided to move to Germany where we both found work again.
Now my question. Because of a pending decision about moving within Germany again my wife and myself
try to find out what we can expect in our  pension age. My wife is 48. After talking here to the the German pension board we know what to expect if we still work like now .
The Irish part could not be quantified by German authorities. Maybe someone here can help me.
By my social insurance record I have 680 contribution between 96/97 and 2009. My wife has 918 contribution between 88/89 and 2009. Now how will this be calculated for the Irish pension. What weekly rate could we expect if law does not change until then. With private pensions and so we have no problem to understand, but this Irish 
system is not clear to me. In Germany you earn each each points which are multiplicated with about 30 Euro when you reach pension age.Easy enough.
I would be very thankful if some could help us.
All the best and  greetings from Germany
 .

Jim2007

Unfortunately you fall into one of the complicated situations (I have the same issue) The system works as follows:
- on reaching pension age (the younger of the Irish and German) you apply to the pension authorities in Germany, giving them details of your Irish contributions.
- they in turn contact the Irish authorities to see if you qualify for a full Irish pension, if so they instruct the Irish pension board to start paying the pension.
- if you don't qualify for a full Irish pension, but you do qualify for a full German pension, they instruct the Irish pension board to start paying an Irish pension based purely on Irish contributions.
- if you don't qualify for a full pension in either state, then the German must calculate the maximum pension that can be obtained using your joint contributions. That is to treat your Irish contributions as if they were German and vice versa. Once the figure is calculated, it is apportioned between the two states and each starts to pay their portion on the date you qualify for the pension in that state.
- a further complication arises in respect of healthcare in retirement. The rule is that unless you are a citizen of the state in which you reside, the state that pays the largest portion of your combined pension is responsible for your healthcare.

Sorry I can't give you any figures, but perhaps with this information you can make an educated guess.

bog master

Hi Jim, as you seem knowledgeable in this area may I ask your advice in regards my own situation?

I have contributions in U.S. and Ireland, though neither is enough for full rate pension. Have dual citizenship. I do qualify now at 62 for partial US pension. But when I meet Irish Pension age, can I avail of both at reduced rate?

I would take the US pension now, but have been advised that it would count as means and would affect my Disability Allowance payment and I would be about €5.00 better off per week.

Thanks

Jim2007

bog master wrote: »

Hi Jim, as you seem knowledgeable in this area may I ask your advice in regards my own situation?

Unfortunately I only have knowledge of my own situation - EU directive on pensions for EU citizens. I have no idea of what the arrangements are for US citizens nor for U.K. citizens, who although are also EU citizens have different rules too.

bog master

Thanks for your reply! ~~~

Udo235

Hallo Jim,
thanks for your answer. I know that the Years worked in both countries are taken into account for 
the calculation if or not you qualify for pension in Germany.
Then I was told that  the Points earned in Germany will be converted into pension by German rules and paid out by German pension board. They told me that the contributions paid in Ireland will be converted by Irish rules and paid out by the Irish boad. Now, I can clearly calculate my German  pension. I have in total worked enough years to qualify for a pension. Then I thake the points of the years I worked in Germany and * by 31,03 Euro. 
For Ireland I was told that the contributions will be paid according to Irish rules. 
 Now let ,me say so, assume I am living in Ireland and I only worked these 14 years in my whole working life.
Showing up in 9 years and saying I want a pension and I have 680 contributions.
How would the Irsh pension board calculate my part of the pension?
Thanks again

Jim2007

I expect you were talking the the wrong person on the German side. It is not a very common situation so there are few people trained in this area, regardless of which country you are in. It is only when you make the actually application that it finds it's way to the people in the know.

Here are the rules for an Irish contributory pension:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/older_and_retired_people/state_pension_contributory.html

If you reach pension age on or after April 6 2012, you need to have 520 full-rate contributions (10 years contributions). In this case, only 260 of the 520 contributions may be voluntary contributions.

Given your length in Ireland it appears you might qualify for a full Irish pension...

Udo235

Jim, thanks again.
At the end I still do not know what my pension will be in Ireland. 
I know i will get paid some pension, i know my contributions will not be more than now.
What I still do not know is the rule which will e used to calculate my pension in Ireland.
I found in the Internet the following. 520 contributions and then for each year 1/30 of full pension rate.
That would work out in my case : 680 contr. - 520 contr. minimum = 160  160 contr. : 52 contr. =  3.07 years
238.30 :30 * 3.07 = 24.38   + the rate minimum rate of 95,20 = 119,20 
For my wife with 918 contributions this would be around 155.9
Is this correct?
One more question, why do you think I could eventually qualify for a full pension.
I lived in Ireland from 1995 -2009 and worked there from 1996 - 2008.
I really appreciate your help on this. :)
My wife lived in Ireland until 1992 and between  1995 -2009 and worked in that time nearly always. 

Udo

amcalester

Sorry to piggy back on another thread...

If you qualify for a full contributory pension in Ireland, can you also claim a partial pension for time spent working in the UK (assuming you have the minimum 10 years contributions over there)?

Jim2007

Udo235 wrote: »

One more question, why do you think I could eventually qualify for a full pension.

I just picked up this line in the document and made an assumption:

If you reach pension age on or after April 6 2012, you need to have 520 full-rate contributions (10 years contributions). In this case, only 260 of the 520 contributions may be voluntary contributions.

Jim2007

amcalester wrote: »

Sorry to piggy back on another thread...

If you qualify for a full contributory pension in Ireland, can you also claim a partial pension for time spent working in the UK (assuming you have the minimum 10 years contributions over there)?

Currently yes, the rule I described only kick in you failed to obtain a full pension in at least one of the states where you made contributions. What happens after BREXIT is unknown at this stage.

Udo235

Ok Jim thanks.anyway

So at the end of day here is nobody really sure how things work.
Thanks and all the best

wench

Udo235 wrote: »

Ok Jim thanks.anyway

So at the end of day here is nobody really sure how things work.
Thanks and all the best

Did you read the page Jim linked to, it's all set out there.

You meet the minimum 520 requirement, so next you need to see how many contributions you have, averaged from when you start work to retirement age.
Your 680 will be divided over about 32 years, giving an average of 21.25.
Looking at the table further down, this would give you €202 per week at current rates. (You need an average of 48 to get the max €238)

Udo235

@Wench

Thank you. I saw the link and know the website anyway.
My problem was to understand that I qualify for the normal pension calculation despite of having only a 13 years long
working life in Ireland.
But if the normal formular also applies to me (comtributions divided by 32) than it is more than i thought it
would be. Amazing that my Irish wife with 240 comtributon more than me will be in the same pension rate.
Prpbably my problem is that I live in Germany.
Many millions here will have after 40 years work a pension like I will have after 14 years in Ireland :-O
Thanks again to everybody and for me the thread is closed