ISDN line. Why would it have been installed?

beechwood55

Am currently involved in tidying up the affairs of an older person who has moved out of their house. I have been asked to open post etc..a bill arrived last week (from Eir). Bill total was almost €280!!! For one month. When I picked myself up off the floor I had a closer look. There is a charge of €79 per month for an ISDN line. Call charges €90...
Could anyone hazard a guess as to why a residential customer (landline and broadband) would have an ISDN line. When I asked the person concerned he has no idea...he suggests it may have been to do with broadband??

NickNickleby

most likely reason is that it was used by the person for a computer to dial into work, higher speed than older modems but not a patch on broadband. I used it myself in the 90's. (maybe even into the noughties - can't be sure).

Dardania

Probably never disconnected after they got DSL broadband installed?
Is the DSL broadband with eircom? They should have disconnected the ISDN at that time...

beechwood55

Dardania wrote: »

Probably never disconnected after they got DSL broadband installed?
Is the DSL broadband with eircom? They should have disconnected the ISDN at that time...

Yes (well Eir now)..
So €80 per month for at least 5 years if not more. Wonder if there is a case for a refund?

Dardania

beechwood55 wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Probably never disconnected after they got DSL broadband installed?
Is the DSL broadband with eircom? They should have disconnected the ISDN at that time...

Yes (well Eir now)..
So €80 per month for at least 5 years if not more. Wonder if there is a case for a refund?

I’d try for it

niallb

They may have had a small telephone switch with two lines.
ISDN was often used to service these.
Was there ever a business run from the house?

beechwood55

No. Never. Just an ordinary private home.

NickNickleby

Dardania wrote: »

Probably never disconnected after they got DSL broadband installed?
Is the DSL broadband with eircom? They should have disconnected the ISDN at that time...

Why?

Sleeper12

ISDN line? Isn't that two phone lines that you would use at the same time for dial up Internet. Super fast. A photo would open in 5 minutes instead of 10.

If this is what you are talking about I had this in the late 90s. I was paying 200 to 300 punts per month

Dardania

NickNickleby wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Probably never disconnected after they got DSL broadband installed?
Is the DSL broadband with eircom? They should have disconnected the ISDN at that time...

Why?

I recall the sales approach was along the lines of upgrading people to DSL as it came available on their exchanges- there’s a duty of care to terminate old internet service arguably

charlie_says

Check the house for ISDN box, it usually says it on it. Slightly bigger than normal telephone socket.

I would ask the elderly person what they know of this and ask them did they knowingly order this specific kind of digital telephone line that is used make data calls primarily. Where they using this line to dial into an internet service provider with a modem? Have a look at their PC to see if there is a telephone cable going into one of the ISDN boxes - if there even are any!

First get permission from the account holder to be a nominated contact on the account, this may require them speaking on the phone with Eir and verifying your identify to them.

Find out if all the bills were payed in the past. Find out when the ISDN line was installed and how it was ordered. It could be that it was sold to the elderly person in a manner which was a mis representative of it's function or necessity. Or it might well be an accounting mistake and there is no ISDN service at all.

If you can't find ISDN box - insist on refund.

If you find one and subsequently find that it has not been used for anything other than regular phone calls - NOT to an Internet Service Provider via ISDN dial up, then dig into how and why it was ordered from Eir. I would be suspicious of Eir in this scenario.

However if it has been used for dialing into an ISP, then I would just cancel the service. The bills will probably have to be eaten in that case.

I have had a situation in the past where Eir erroneously kept an ISDN line on a business account for years, they continued to pay for it for a long time thinking that it was essential for their telephone system. I insisted and received a full refund of a four figure sum. I threatened Comreg and social media which usually lights a fire under them.

Eir can be shockingly bad on the phone though, you may have to try several phone calls to get to speak to someone who isn't either disinterested or uses their standard "that's not accessible on my system" or pass you to any other department tactic I have heard so many times from them before. Try to get a reference/ticket number and quote that each time you talk to them. Be persistent and you will get results and information.

edit: also this might be better posted in consumer affairs?

lukesmom

I worked for eircom for a grand total of 3 weeks back in 1998 and the job was to call customers and try and persuade them to get the ISDN in. We had a script to read from and everytime someone signed up for one they had to throw a miniature basketball into a net. At the end of the week whoever sold the most got a prize usually consisting of a slab of lager or wine. I sold nothing. Half the people who got those lines did not need them. It was awful

charlie_says

lukesmom wrote: »

I worked for eircom for a grand total of 3 weeks back in 1998 and the job was to call customers and try and persuade them to get the ISDN in. We had a script to read from and everyone someone signed up for one they had to throw a miniature basketball into a net. At the end of the week whoever sold the most got a prize usually consisting of a slab of lager or wine. I sold nothing. Half the people who got those lines did not need them. It was awful

Wow. They are terrible.

I've had them with two separate dates and customers turn up to the wrong premises on a date of installation for business broadband, then cancel the appointment only to cancel the other one as engineer was sent out but no one at the wrong premises. They also didn't inform me of the cancellations. Result was two customers with added long delay times to get vital connectivity installed.

There is one person in the business support team who I cannot deal with as they are so useless, I always ask to be transferred if I have to phone and am unlucky enough to get them. Not my favorite company.

NickNickleby

Dardania wrote: »

I recall the sales approach was along the lines of upgrading people to DSL as it came available on their exchanges- there’s a duty of care to terminate old internet service arguably

If only we lived in a world where being nice was as important as profit. When I win the Euromillions, my company will be VERY customer and employee friendly. but in the meantime...
We don't know everything here, but suppose for arguments sake, I bought an electric cooker from Airtricity, would it be expected of them to cut off my gas (assuming a gas/electric account with them). In my own case I had both broadband - when it became available - and ISDN. Because my work connection was over ISDN, for security reasons. I'd have been in a bit of a pickle if the ISDN had been cut off when BB was installed.

Although I can understand the concern if it was an elderly person involved, regardless of the legalities or business sense, there's possibly a question of the morals involved. Don't think that figures much in the decisions of businesses , large or small. Its like me being caught out by an electric/gas supplier. At the end of my contract, I just decided to let it roll over, but the bar-stewards let the price per unit default to the non 'special offer' price and I only found out when I compared bills 12 months apart and found same number of units, but almost double the unit price in the second one. :mad: This was after asking who was leaving the immersion on . And I'm not elderly yet (but I avoid all mirrors as they remind me its on the horizon!!).

Dardania

NickNickleby wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

I recall the sales approach was along the lines of upgrading people to DSL as it came available on their exchanges- there’s a duty of care to terminate old internet service arguably

If only we lived in a world where being nice was as important as profit. When I win the Euromillions, my company will be VERY customer and employee friendly. but in the meantime...
We don't know everything here, but suppose for arguments sake, I bought an electric cooker from Airtricity, would it be expected of them to cut off my gas (assuming a gas/electric account with them).  In my own case I had both broadband - when it became available - and ISDN. Because my work connection was over ISDN, for security reasons. I'd have been in a bit of a pickle if the ISDN had been cut off when BB was installed.

Although I can understand the concern if it was an elderly person involved, regardless of the legalities or business sense, there's possibly a question of the morals involved. Don't think that figures much in the decisions of businesses , large or small. Its like me being caught out by an electric/gas supplier. At the end of my contract, I just decided to let it roll over, but the bar-stewards let the price per unit default to the non 'special offer' price and I only found out when I compared bills 12 months apart and found same number of units, but almost double the unit price in the second one. :mad: This was after asking who was leaving the immersion on . And I'm not elderly yet (but I avoid all mirrors as they remind me its on the horizon!!).

Your analagy is good, however not complete for what I see the situation as. You mention that you buy the electric cooker - in that case you initiated the transaction. In that case, no, I don't think there is a duty of care for Airtricity to discontinue the gas.
However, with the eircom situations, my recollection was that people would go to eircom looking for broadband, only to be told that it wasn't available in their exchange. eircom would then offer ISDN as a temp measure, and get in touch with you when your exchange was enabled for DSL. The duty of care (to my, perverse thinking admittedly!) mind is on eircom: they contacted you, in repsonse to your original request for broadband

beauf

beechwood55 wrote: »

... There is a charge of €79 per month for an ISDN line. Call charges €90...
..

Did you check how the call charges arise? I mean who made them etc.

beechwood55

I am going to follow this up. There is no way this person would have had any need for an IDSN line. Ever.
Think it was missold to him.

Johnboy1951

I had, a couple of decades ago or more, considered getting an ISDN line for my (then dial up) broadband use, as the connection speed available would far outstrip the crappy phone line.

It is just possible this person did something similar?
In that case they never thought to change their line and so have paid for it since.

NickNickleby

Dardania wrote: »

Your analagy is good, however not complete for what I see the situation as. You mention that you buy the electric cooker - in that case you initiated the transaction. In that case, no, I don't think there is a duty of care for Airtricity to discontinue the gas.
However, with the eircom situations, my recollection was that people would go to eircom looking for broadband, only to be told that it wasn't available in their exchange. eircom would then offer ISDN as a temp measure, and get in touch with you when your exchange was enabled for DSL. The duty of care (to my, perverse thinking admittedly!) mind is on eircom: they contacted you, in repsonse to your original request for broadband

I'd have to agree with you on that, if Eircom offered ISDN as a temporary solution for Broadband access, it should have been flagged for cancellation once BB was installed. As my own situation was somewhat different, I cannot say from experience if this was done. I know someone else who had ISDN, must ask them how it worked out for them. Either way, I think generally the big companies have their 'get out of jail' cards and probably relent in some case (like one posted further up in this thread) for the sake of publicity.

ED E

beechwood55 wrote: »

I am going to follow this up. There is no way this person would have had any need for an IDSN line. Ever.
Think it was missold to him.

Fax?

beechwood55

No. No fax.

Fogmatic

I also have less than fond memories of Eircom sales calls pushing ISDN, when I first got on the internet, on a line that dialup (even voice) struggled with (line turned out years later to be incapable of more than a theoretical 16 Kilobits/sec)! The salesmen waffled about 'a way to make your internet connection faster' and similar dumbed-down stuff. When I said 'Do you mean ISDN?' (Yes'). 'No thanks', they hung up (until the next time).

OP; I think the 'Talk to eir' forum would be a good place to ask about this (nice and public, especially if you use PMs for personal details only, and no hanging.on the phone and frantic note-scribbling).

beechwood55

Thanks Fogmatic. I hadn't thought of that!! Will do a bit of digging of past bills and see how far back this goes.

jmcc

TE/Eircom was pushing a consumer version of ISDN in the late 1990s and early 2000s. It was possible to bond the two ISDN phonelines to produce a single higher bandwidth connection. Even on the single connection, it was much faster than the old dial-up internet connection. It was more expensive. There is also a big difference between ISDN and "always on" broadband. Everytime that someone was connecting to the internet using ISDN, it generally involved a call to the ISP and a metered call charge. Effectively, the call charges may be for connection to the internet. The ISPs introduced local point of presence phone numbers in the 1990s so that these calls would be to a local number but all those local calls, even from checking e-mail, add up.

Regards...jmcc

Fogmatic

Yes jmcc, I remember the way call/connection charges accumulated (from my multiple dialup connection attempts/timeouts; the itemised bills went on for ever!).

When I first heard of ISDN, (maybe in a PC Live! magazine I tried - too Dublin-centric for me!), I ruled it out for our household as soon as I'd found some details (too much money, for such a small step in the DSL direction). I didn't know at the time quite how bad our line was, but we also got personally addressed congratulatory leaflets in the post from Eircom, saying we could now get broadband. I rang them to check if it was correct (being 6/7 km from our local exchange), and she entered our number in the computer, and our broadband exchange came up as Letterkenny. I asked her how that worked, being 60km away across the mountain. She said she'd ask someone and ring back, and never did. I only found out by accident years later that when we had the phone put in, Eircom gave us a number from an obscure block of numbers, from which Eircom can't find our real location.

Pelvis

€79 sounds like a Bi-Monthly bill, unless they have 2 ISDN lines?

TBH, the bigger question is why someone would pay this fee for years without every questioning it.

Johnboy1951

Pelvis wrote: »

€79 sounds like a Bi-Monthly bill, unless they have 2 ISDN lines?

TBH, the bigger question is why someone would pay this fee for years without every questioning it.

It becomes a habit if the person is not keeping abrest of developments.

Johnboy1951

Pelvis wrote: »

€79 sounds like a Bi-Monthly bill, unless they have 2 ISDN lines?

TBH, the bigger question is why someone would pay this fee for years without every questioning it.

It becomes a habit if the person is not keeping abreast of developments.

jmcc

Pelvis wrote: »

€79 sounds like a Bi-Monthly bill, unless they have 2 ISDN lines?

ISDN is effectively two lines with two phone numbers but I think that consumers are on two month bill cycles and businesses on one month bill cycles with Eir.

TBH, the bigger question is why someone would pay this fee for years without every questioning it.

The hassle of switching. Most people will stay with providers for years or decades because switching causes too many problems and if something is working, people are reluctant to change.

Regards...jmcc

jmcc

Fogmatic wrote: »

Yes jmcc, I remember the way call/connection charges accumulated (from my multiple dialup connection attempts/timeouts; the itemised bills went on for ever!).

The good old days? The problem with ISDN is that, unlike the old modems, the connection is silent so it would be difficult to notice it connecting. The LEDs might flash but there was no modem connection sound.

Regards...jmcc