All quiet on the Korean peninsula, but is Spain about to erupt?

seachto7

end of the road wrote: »

why rightly so. 90% of those who voted, voted in favour of independence.

90% according to who and how accurate is the 90%?

Plus you would think those against tye referendum stayed at home and those fanatical enough to want to vote yes risked their own safety to vote yes so 90% is no way accurate.

Vote early and vote often...

bilston

Things had gone quiet in the last day or so (probably due to events in Las Vegas news wise). However the Spanish King has been on TV tonight and from the snippets I've read wasn't particularly conciliatory towards Catalonia.

I've now just got a news alert from the BBC saying that the Catalan leader has announced Catalonia will declare independence in the next couple of days. Interesting times indeed...

Doltanian

bilston wrote: »

Things had gone quiet in the last day or so (probably due to events in Las Vegas news wise). However the Spanish King has been on TV tonight and from the snippets I've read wasn't particularly conciliatory towards Catalonia.

I've now just got a news alert from the BBC saying that the Catalan leader has announced Catalonia will declare independence in the next couple of days. Interesting times indeed...

And so will start the Second Spanish Civil War, the EU battle groups will be sent in to side with the Spanish Crown. I think this is the beginning of something much much bigger and I'd like to see Putin fly a few cargo-plane loads of weapons into Barcelona post haste. They will need them very shortly. I am certainly on the side of the Catalans here and an Independent Catalonia will not be won peacefully.

Gringo180

Doltanian wrote: »

And so will start the Second Spanish Civil War, the EU battle groups will be sent in to side with the Spanish Crown. I think this is the beginning of something much much bigger and I'd like to see Putin fly a few cargo-plane loads of weapons into Barcelona post haste. They will need them very shortly. I am certainly on the side of the Catalans here and an Independent Catalonia will not be won peacefully.

After the thuggish behaviour from the Spanish police I would say most are now on the side of the Catalonians. There was some amount of people out on the streets of Barcelona today in protest. I wonder was there a figure of how many marched?

Harry Palmr

Oh yeah I can see the Catalan's phoning Moscow for arms and it'll be just as likely that Putin would fly them in! :pac:

alchemist33

Doltanian wrote: »

And so will start the Second Spanish Civil War, the EU battle groups will be sent in to side with the Spanish Crown. I think this is the beginning of something much much bigger and I'd like to see Putin fly a few cargo-plane loads of weapons into Barcelona post haste. They will need them very shortly. I am certainly on the side of the Catalans here and an Independent Catalonia will not be won peacefully.

You'd like weapons flown in to fuel a war? What the hell is wrong with you?

Gringo180

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Oh yeah I can see the Catalan's phoning Moscow for arms and it'll be just as likely that Putin would fly them in! :pac:

Better to side with the Catalonians than the Spanish police state :pac:

bilston

Doltanian wrote: »

And so will start the Second Spanish Civil War, the EU battle groups will be sent in to side with the Spanish Crown. I think this is the beginning of something much much bigger and I'd like to see Putin fly a few cargo-plane loads of weapons into Barcelona post haste. They will need them very shortly. I am certainly on the side of the Catalans here and an Independent Catalonia will not be won peacefully.

I've a lot of sympathy for the Catalans after Sunday's shambles but Putin getting actively involved in Western Europe in a NATO country? Nah, that has unmitigated clusterf*** written all over it.

The One Doctor

Probably an ignorant comment, but... I'm wondering if these last few years will be seen by history as the beginning of the end for the EU. And if so, the results will not be pretty.

(I'm pro-EU by the way).

theoneeyedman

Doltanian wrote: »

And so will start the Second Spanish Civil War, the EU battle groups will be sent in to side with the Spanish Crown. I think this is the beginning of something much much bigger and I'd like to see Putin fly a few cargo-plane loads of weapons into Barcelona post haste. They will need them very shortly. I am certainly on the side of the Catalans here and an Independent Catalonia will not be won peacefully.

Can we expect Leo to follow the historical Blueshirts support of the Spanish nationalists, and send troops to support Madrid??

GhostyMcGhost

Gringo180 wrote: »

After the thuggish behaviour from the Spanish police I would say most are now on the side of the Catalonians. There was some amount of people out on the streets of Barcelona today in protest. I wonder was there a figure of how many marched?

700k says RTE (also same figure on RT)

Danzy

Who knows what will happen but the only thing i'm certain of is that if Madrid can find a new and innovative way to **** the situation up for itself it will push hard on it.

It could end with bodies on the street yet.

Floki

bilston wrote: »

Things had gone quiet in the last day or so (probably due to events in Las Vegas news wise). However the Spanish King has been on TV tonight and from the snippets I've read wasn't particularly conciliatory towards Catalonia.

I've now just got a news alert from the BBC saying that the Catalan leader has announced Catalonia will declare independence in the next couple of days. Interesting times indeed...

They had to declare independence.
This is the only chance they've got to do it and couldn't let it slip by when they've got some sympathy for them from around the world.
Any more aggression from Spain now will make them look even worse than they've been already.
I'm not sure they're going to get any support from Eu governments though.
Maybe private parties will travel to Catalonia on their own bat from all over Europe and the world? Haven't a clue what will happen.
There's no point negotiating if you have no power though.

Back to the Future on this one.

Edit: Probably banking on the UN stepping in.:pac:

A Little Pony

I thought they should have had the vote and allowed to vote. But Rajoy has declared it an illegal vote, it's illegal in law and so it looks like war. Rajoy will have to take military action now and crush the rebellion.

A Little Pony

The One Doctor wrote: »

Probably an ignorant comment, but... I'm wondering if these last few years will be seen by history as the beginning of the end for the EU. And if so, the results will not be pretty.

(I'm pro-EU by the way).

Absolutely. Brexit was the end of the EU. Said it at the time.

Gringo180

A Little Pony wrote: »

I thought they should have had the vote and allowed to vote. But Rajoy has declared it an illegal vote, it's illegal in law and so it looks like war. Rajoy will have to take military action now and crush the rebellion.

As in kill innocent civilians who want to vote/or gain independence? This is Spain not Saudi Arabia.

A Little Pony

Gringo180 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I thought they should have had the vote and allowed to vote. But Rajoy has declared it an illegal vote, it's illegal in law and so it looks like war. Rajoy will have to take military action now and crush the rebellion.

As in kill innocent civilians who want to vote/or gain independence? This is Spain not Saudi Arabia.

He has to act, it's unfathomable that he doesn't.

Danzy

A Little Pony wrote: »

I thought they should have had the vote and allowed to vote. But Rajoy has declared it an illegal vote, it's illegal in law and so it looks like war. Rajoy will have to take military action now and crush the rebellion.

Which would lead to a suspension of their membership from the EU, well depending on the EU applying Article 7 of the European Union Treaty and it is not certain that they won't fudge it, I'm guessing they would given that fudging is a chronic problem in the EU.

If he sends in the Guardia or the army to stop it then people there are going to start fighting back, given the last day's events you'd have to assume they weren't coming up to make friends.

Life and history often present problems where there is bad and less bad paths, this is a real doozy.

Danzy

A Little Pony wrote: »

He has to act, it's unfathomable that he doesn't.

It is Catalan and Basque money though that will be paying for most of the Soldiers and Police to get on the Bus heading up North.

There are about 17,000 in the Mossos, the Catalan Police, they are armed, out of the 7 million Catalans there will be a lot with rifles etc.

Rajoy can act but can he and Spain afford the price.

His approach so far seems to be to do everything in his power to guarantee that Catalonia becomes Independent.

bear1

Bet the government activates article 155 and that's when the cluster**** will start for real.

Guy:Incognito

The One Doctor wrote: »

Probably an ignorant comment, but... I'm wondering if these last few years will be seen by history as the beginning of the end for the EU. And if so, the results will not be pretty.

(I'm pro-EU by the way).

Have the hierarchy in Catalonia not said they'd want to be in the eu ?

So much sensationalism. They're not going to break away and become independent. The majority don't want independence. And the police reaction is not going to change that. Why? Becuase the people in that region have always known the way that the various Spanish police groups behave.... They'll campaign for policy change, and seek concessions in the management of the region, but they're not going to go independent.

Independence would destroy their current regional prosperity, and turn the remainder of Spanish people against them forever afterwards. They would have a very hostile larger country right beside them... and the Spanish are very good at holding grudges. Independence, should it ever happen would need to occur in a natural movement and only, once the more nationalistic impulses have disappeared. So, not in our lifetimes...

The behaviour of the Police and Government response has been incredibly over the top... but... I wouldn't expect any major change to occur.

bear1

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Have the hierarchy in Catalonia not said they'd want to be in the eu ?

Not a chance would they be accepted into the eu.

Guy:Incognito

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Have the hierarchy in Catalonia not said they'd want to be in the eu ?

The EU is already under a lot of scrutiny as to its future existence. Allowing a breakaway into the EU would send a message to all the major countries, that parts of them can break away at will.

Look at a map of Europe from two hundred years ago. I doubt France wants large chunks to decide they'd be better off independent or Italy breaking up into a dozen states.. all with the promise of EU membership... Allow one in, then the EU would have to allow them all in. Scotland is a bit of a special case since it's not a jealous breakup.. but any other separations in Europe would be unhappy breakups.. with the EU in the crosshairs.

Danzy

Deleted User wrote: »

The EU is already under a lot of scrutiny as to its future existence. Allowing a breakaway into the EU would send a message to all the major countries, that parts of them can break away at will.

Look at a map of Europe from two hundred years ago. I doubt France wants large chunks to decide they'd be better off independent or Italy breaking up into a dozen states.. all with the promise of EU membership... Allow one in, then the EU would have to allow them all in. Scotland is a bit of a special case since it's not a jealous breakup.. but any other separations in Europe would be unhappy breakups.. with the EU in the crosshairs.

They might not get the luxury of what they want, the last decade has been a complete cluster**** for the EU, this may be the tin hat on it.

Christy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The EU is already under a lot of scrutiny as to its future existence. Allowing a breakaway into the EU would send a message to all the major countries, that parts of them can break away at will.

Look at a map of Europe from two hundred years ago. I doubt France wants large chunks to decide they'd be better off independent or Italy breaking up into a dozen states.. all with the promise of EU membership... Allow one in, then the EU would have to allow them all in. Scotland is a bit of a special case since it's not a jealous breakup.. but any other separations in Europe would be unhappy breakups.. with the EU in the crosshairs.

There is a long history of Catalan wanting to be separate. I have not seen many from Italy wanting to turn into a load of states again.

Also there are many countries not in the EU. How do they avoid random break ups? Simply put the people don't want it. For all the jokes there is not a hope Ireland would split back into the provinces any time soon. Even if they would get EU membership.

Slippery slope fallacy I feel.

368100

If Catalonia did gain indepenance, does anyone think it would be less likely to have terrorist attacks happen? I think it probably would.

4068ac1elhodqr

The 2nd largest economic region on the planet has been so mismanaged, that other regions may well follow the trend:


Italy*: Veneto. The north of Italy produces two thirds of Italy’s GDP. In March, 89 percent of Venetians voted for independence in an online petition which led to the foundation of a party called ‘Veneto Si’.

Italy*: South Tyrol, more Austrian/German than Italian.

Belgium: Flanders, a N/S monetary divide, again.

Spain: The Basque region, probably closely watching events unfold in Catalonia.

Denmark: Faroe Islands 550sq miles, independence is a popular thought with the inhabitants

France: Corsica: After failed attempt in ’03 maybe they’ll try again.

Germany: Bavaria, the most unlikely but some wish for greater autonomy

Others: Wales, Cornwall, Northern Ireland, Galicia, Aragon (Spain), Silesia (Poland), Frisia (Netherlands, Germany), Sardinia (Italy), Brittany, Occitania, Alsace, Savoy (France), and Aaland (Finland).

*Important to note, that Italy has overtaken Greece as the next favourite to leave the EU at just 2/1...

lawred2

Doltanian wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Things had gone quiet in the last day or so (probably due to events in Las Vegas news wise). However the Spanish King has been on TV tonight and from the snippets I've read wasn't particularly conciliatory towards Catalonia.

I've now just got a news alert from the BBC saying that the Catalan leader has announced Catalonia will declare independence in the next couple of days. Interesting times indeed...

And so will start the Second Spanish Civil War, the EU battle groups will be sent in to side with the Spanish Crown. I think this is the beginning of something much much bigger and I'd like to see Putin fly a few cargo-plane loads of weapons into Barcelona post haste. They will need them very shortly. I am certainly on the side of the Catalans here and an Independent Catalonia will not be won peacefully.

This isn't a comic book...

Christy42

Rory Hollow Muffin wrote: »

The 2nd largest economic region on the planet has been so mismanaged, that other regions may well follow the trend:


Italy*: Veneto. The north of Italy produces two thirds of Italy’s GDP. In March, 89 percent of Venetians voted for independence in an online petition which led to the foundation of a party called ‘Veneto Si’.

Italy*: South Tyrol, more Austrian/German than Italian.

Belgium: Flanders, a N/S monetary divide, again.

Spain: The Basque region, probably closely watching events unfold in Catalonia.

Denmark: Faroe Islands 550sq miles, independence is a popular thought with the inhabitants

France: Corsica: After failed attempt in ’03 maybe they’ll try again.

Germany: Bavaria, the most unlikely but some wish for greater autonomy

Others: Wales, Cornwall, Northern Ireland, Galicia, Aragon (Spain), Silesia (Poland), Frisia (Netherlands, Germany), Sardinia (Italy), Brittany, Occitania, Alsace, Savoy (France), and Aaland (Finland).

*Important to note, that Italy has overtaken Greece as the next favourite to leave the EU at just 2/1...

Two of those is about joining an EU country. The Faroe is a holdover from empire days really.

Wales and NI independence would be leaving a non eu member to become an EU member and would be the same as the Scotland case.

Basque will make a play for independence if Catalonia is successful irregardless of their eu status.

Thank you though I had not heard of the Italian and French ones before so I was wrong there. I remain unconvinced that EU membership is the key point for them to try for independence or even a serious element.

NIMAN

As Guy:Incognito hinted at for Catalonia, even if these other regions listed all broke away and became independent countries, the majority would likely want to be a part of the EU for economic reasons.

Christy42

Christy42 wrote: »

There is a long history of Catalan wanting to be separate. I have not seen many from Italy wanting to turn into a load of states again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe

While Catalan has been suggesting Independence for a long time, It still doesn't have the overall support for such a thing. Same as those within the wiki link.

Also there are many countries not in the EU. How do they avoid random break ups? Simply put the people don't want it. For all the jokes there is not a hope Ireland would split back into the provinces any time soon. Even if they would get EU membership.

Slippery slope fallacy I feel.

Ireland is hardly a good example since it has a very strong national identity as being Irish and hasn't has splintered identity in, what, before the English came?

But I agree that countries are generally not going to split, but the movements are still there.

Christy42

[Deleted User] wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe

While Catalan has been suggesting Independence for a long time, It still doesn't have the overall support for such a thing. Same as those within the wiki link.



Ireland is hardly a good example since it has a very strong national identity as being Irish and hasn't has splintered identity in, what, before the English came?

But I agree that countries are generally not going to split, but the movements are still there.

Agreed. This independence movement has only had any success because of the Spanish government. Other countries have a what not to do now at least. As the people seem to want to stay part of Spain I reckon the region should but the Spanish seem to have made this all but impossible. They should have asked to hold off on the referendum for a year to give both sides time to campaign and held a proper referendum. That would have been that for a decade at a minimum.

The movements are there and an independent Catalonia will spur them on. I don't see EU membership being the deal breaker either way.

Hector Savage

368100 wrote: »

If Catalonia did gain indepenance, does anyone think it would be less likely to have terrorist attacks happen? I think it probably would.

Why ?
Cos they wont be part of the EU ?

Don't think it matters to these nutters.

Billy86

RasTa wrote: »

Well this is pretty crazy

https://twitter.com/JulianAssange/status/914428231977197568

I wonder how hard Putin and co got when they saw this... incredibly poorly handled by the Spanish authorities, it could well wind up a victory for those after independence in the long run.

Kermit.de.frog

Catalonia going to declare independence in matter of days,

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41493014

Elmer Blooker

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Have the hierarchy in Catalonia not said they'd want to be in the eu ?

I don't think its that simple. They would have to apply and even if they do join eventually it could take years.
Wouldn't Spain do everything in their power to block the entry of an independent Catalonia into the EU?

Meanwhile .... sometimes I wonder if Catalan politicians are in touch with reality. Tell me that this isn't incredible arrogance. Are they really so full of their own importance?

Catalan sports minister Gerard Figueras last week said Barcelona may be able to play in another country should the region achieve independence from Spain.
"In the case of independence, Catalan teams in La Liga – Barcelona, Espanyol and Girona – will have to decide where they want to play: in the Spanish league or a neighbouring country like Italy, France or the (English) Premier League," he said.

Hector Savage

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I don't think its that simple. They would have to apply and even if they do join eventually it could take years.
Wouldn't Spain do everything in their power to block the entry of an independent Catalonia into the EU?

Meanwhile .... sometimes I wonder if Catalan politicians are in touch with reality. Tell me that this isn't incredible arrogance. Are they really so full of their own importance?

The EPL would jump at having Barca in the league, would really improve things.

But yeah I agree - total arrogance.

Elmer Blooker

Hector Savage wrote: »

The EPL would jump at having Barca in the league,

Of course, money talks.
I think UEFA would have the final decision, and anyways there would be court cases and objections etc and it would probably take years for Barca FC to be accepted into a foreign league.

I wonder how hard Putin and co got when they saw this...

His views are no different to our own Leo.

“Everyone is discussing the situation around Catalonia’s independence referendum. I don’t deny, we’re very worried about Spain,” Putin said, stressing that the referendum is an “internal matter” for the country. “We hope the crisis will be resolved soon,” the Russian leader added.

alchemist33

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I don't think its that simple. They would have to apply and even if they do join eventually it could take years.
Wouldn't Spain do everything in their power to block the entry of an independent Catalonia into the EU?

Meanwhile .... sometimes I wonder if Catalan politicians are in touch with reality. Tell me that this isn't incredible arrogance. Are they really so full of their own importance?

They should play in the Catalonian league. If you want independence you have to accept the consequences.

Omackeral

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Catalonia going to declare independence in matter of days,

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41493014

Wait, is that the end of El Classico so?!!

CucaFace

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

I don't think its that simple. They would have to apply and even if they do join eventually it could take years.
Wouldn't Spain do everything in their power to block the entry of an independent Catalonia into the EU?

Meanwhile .... sometimes I wonder if Catalan politicians are in touch with reality. Tell me that this isn't incredible arrogance. Are they really so full of their own importance?

Catalans in general are very arrogant people. I have to work with customers from many parts of the world, and I put Spanish people down as the really difficult customers to deal with in general, but the Catalans top the list for this.

No way should their football teams be allowed into another league.

And they should really realise that they will not be allowed into the EU if they get independance, Spain (and rightly so in my opinion) will block this.

lawred2

CucaFace wrote: »

Catalans in general are very arrogant people. I have to work with customers from many parts of the world, and I put Spanish people down as the really difficult customers to deal with in general, but the Catalans top the list for this.

No way should their football teams be allowed into another league.

And they should really realise that they will not be allowed into the EU if they get independance, Spain (and rightly so in my opinion) will block this.

this is the real important stuff

A Dub in Glasgo

CucaFace wrote: »

Catalans in general are very arrogant people. I have to work with customers from many parts of the world, and I put Spanish people down as the really difficult customers to deal with in general, but the Catalans top the list for this.

No way should their football teams be allowed into another league.

And they should really realise that they will not be allowed into the EU if they get independance, Spain (and rightly so in my opinion) will block this.

Do they tell you they are Catalans?

end of the road

CucaFace wrote: »

Catalans in general are very arrogant people. I have to work with customers from many parts of the world, and I put Spanish people down as the really difficult customers to deal with in general, but the Catalans top the list for this.

No way should their football teams be allowed into another league.

And they should really realise that they will not be allowed into the EU if they get independance, Spain (and rightly so in my opinion) will block this.

why rightly so. the catalans have a right to be an independant country. trying to cause difficulties for catalonia and it's people is against democracy.

LordSutch

The UK leaves the EU and becomes an ex member, while Catalonia joins the EU & becomes a new member

Everybody's happy, all square.

end of the road

LordSutch wrote: »

The UK leaves the EU and becomes an ex member, while Catalonia joins the EU & becomes a new member

Everybody's happy, all square.

different situation, as britain is only leaving on the basis of a minority, and on the basis of delusians of granjure. based on returning to a historical time that never existed, and on the basis of lies. but that's a different topic.

CucaFace

end of the road wrote: »

different situation, as britain is only leaving on the basis of a minority, and on the basis of delusians of granjure. based on returning to a historical time that never existed, and on the basis of lies. but that's a different topic.

I think you could nearly argue the exact same points there for Catalonia in general....

Their 'majority vote' the last day is very questionable, people were voting more than once, and its well known that in reality they do not have a large majority that support this in the region. There is a very large silent amount of the electorate that want to stay part of Spain. These people would never have gone and voted the last day.... so to go and actually declare independence from this 'vote' is just not correct in any way.

I think they feel they are better then the rest of Spain (delusions of grandeur).

And this is based on returning to a historical time of place called Catalonia.

By the way in my opinion its not good for the world in general and the EU if countries start splitting up into smaller and more numerous countries. It already hard to get global consensus for issues like global warming without more individual countries who will be looking out for their own economical interests first.

CucaFace

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Do they tell you they are Catalans?

Yes they do. I work in an English school so I actually meet them....

737max

end of the road wrote: »

why rightly so. the catalans have a right to be an independant country. trying to cause difficulties for catalonia and it's people is against democracy.

I and others already explained to you that this was not a democratic vote many pages back. You make leaps. You have a history of doing this in every topic you discuss on the various sub-forums.