Discovery 1x03 – "Context is for Kings" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

seamus

Bacchus wrote: »

I'm happy enough to just accept that she is 'guilty by association' among her peers.

The vibe from episode 3 IMO is that they're going for a "warts and all" portrayal of humanity.

In TNG and on, even criminals were just people who made a serious error, not bad guys at all. People being pursued by authorities were criminals of conscience or freedom fighters. Actual dangerous people were few and far between - Lore, perhaps, being one of the few "evil" characters.

Behind every "evil" character was a "good intentions" story, like Ransom, and there was always a redemption; Ransom's self-sacrifice saved Voyager.

Whereas Discovery appears to be making stronger efforts to show humans as flawed, like in TOS, irrational, potentially dangerous, potentially immoral. The 24th century-era Star Trek has always portrayed humans as enlightened and egalitarian, with very little selfishness or personality defects.

The "shush" part made me laugh out loud.

D3V!L

Did anyone spot the Gorn skeleton at the end in Lorca's little basement dungeon room ?

D3V!L

D3V!L wrote: »

Did anyone spot the Gorn skeleton at the end in Lorca's little basement dungeon room ?

Ha, you're right.

Evade

The shush part stuck out like a sore thumb to me. It's a very human gesture.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

The shush part stuck out like a sore thumb to me. It's a very human gesture.

TBH that might have been the point. It's probably the easiest way to non-verbally communicate to be quiet when dealing with humans.

I love that now what we consider a "universal gesture" is now an actual universal gesture in the Trek universe :pac:

heebusjeebus

Surely the shush gesture could be used by all species that use their mouths to make noise?

pixelburp

I think that link off to TrekMovie about Spock is on point: after all, if Spock never even mentioned his parents until they were literally standing in-front of him & Kirk on the Enterprise, why would he ever have mentioned Michael? He doesn't do personal issues.

Thinking ahead of how things might pan out too, feels like there are a couple of possibilities: Michael's reputation remains utterly tarnished by the series' end; she dies while saving the day (thus restoring her honour, by the laws of Narrative); either way, Spock's unlikely to mention her in chit-chat.

heebusjeebus

heebusjeebus wrote: »

Surely the shush gesture could be used by all species that use their mouths to make noise?

Ha, I like to think that telepathic species like the Betazoids signal to shush by pointing to their heads.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH that might have been the point. It's probably the easiest way to non-verbally communicate to be quiet when dealing with humans.

It seems like very specific knowledge for a Klingon to have. Will one in a later episode give a thumbs up or the OK gesture?

Evade

Evade wrote: »

It seems like very specific knowledge for a Klingon to have. Will one in a later episode give a thumbs up or the OK gesture?

Well, the assumption is that the Klingons have been interacting with the Federation/Humanity for at least a few decades (or more?) by this point, so, if it is just a Human gesture (no idea if it's been specified/clarified?) then surely it's possible that they've adapted/learned certain gestures.

silverharp

interestingly enough there is a theory that shhh replicates sounds in the womb for an infant. Its reasonably common in Earth societies ;-) , so its plausible to say its a universal sound.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, the assumption is that the Klingons have been interacting with the Federation/Humanity for at least a few decades (or more?) by this point, so, if it is just a Human gesture (no idea if it's been specified/clarified?) then surely it's possible that they've adapted/learned certain gestures.

Except they haven't. Aside from a few raids, like the one that orphaned Burnham, there hasn't been any contact between the Federation and Klingons for about a century.

Greyjoy

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, the assumption is that the Klingons have been interacting with the Federation/Humanity for at least a few decades (or more?) by this point, so, if it is just a Human gesture (no idea if it's been specified/clarified?) then surely it's possible that they've adapted/learned certain gestures.

Given the fact that the war was started because the Klingons feared they were losing their identity to the multicultural Federation - why would they adopt human gestures?

pixelburp

Greyjoy wrote: »

Given the fact that the war was started because the Klingons feared they were losing their identity to the multicultural Federation - why would they adopt human gestures?

Is that really the most egregious example worth highlighting, in a franchise featuring frequent multi-species romances where the couples ... you know... kiss? Or for that matter, bone each other with remarkably compatible reproduction organs?

I think we should / can forgive a little shushing

TheIrishGrover

D3V!L wrote: »

Did anyone spot the Gorn skeleton at the end in Lorca's little basement dungeon room ?

I saw the skeleton in a display case but didn't get a good look at it (I haven't rewatched the episode yet). There was also one on his desk/whatever that initially looked like a facehugger. (It wasn't but initially looked like one).

Yeah...... The man got issues......

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

Is that really the most egregious example worth highlighting, in a franchise featuring frequent multi-species romances where the couples ... you know... kiss? Or for that matter, bone each other with remarkably compatible reproduction organs?

I think we should / can forgive a little shushing

Plus it was very funny.

Greyjoy

pixelburp wrote: »

Is that really the most egregious example worth highlighting, in a franchise featuring frequent multi-species romances where the couples ... you know... kiss? Or for that matter, bone each other with remarkably compatible reproduction organs?

I think we should / can forgive a little shushing

It came across as a jarring scene to me. They could have sold it better by having the Klingon display some semblance of fear after all the creature has torn apart the other klingons. Instead the Klingon calmly walks out of the shadows and loudly 'shushes' the boarding party. For a moment I thought the klingon survivor was somehow mocking the Discovery crew.

Greyjoy

Greyjoy wrote: »

It came across as a jarring scene to me. They could have sold it better by having the Klingon display some semblance of fear after all the creature has torn apart the other klingons. Instead the Klingon calmly walks out of the shadows and loudly 'shushes' the boarding party. For a moment I thought the klingon survivor was somehow mocking the Discovery crew.

Guaranteed if he did that, someone on here would say, "how dare he use a very human gesture of fear".

TheIrishGrover

pixelburp wrote: »

Is that really the most egregious example worth highlighting, in a franchise featuring frequent multi-species romances where the couples ... you know... kiss? Or for that matter, bone each other with remarkably compatible reproduction organs?

I think we should / can forgive a little shushing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMLOqCaMRQg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hstdINH9Lk0

pixelburp

Greyjoy wrote: »

It came across as a jarring scene to me. They could have sold it better by having the Klingon display some semblance of fear after all the creature has torn apart the other klingons. Instead the Klingon calmly walks out of the shadows and loudly 'shushes' the boarding party. For a moment I thought the klingon survivor was somehow mocking the Discovery crew.

No more jarring than all the slobbery, microbe-passing tonguing that happens through Trek history.

I do get what you're saying, it was a very random moment bordering on jarring, but intentionally written as a disarmingly funny one; given the context of all the interspecies boning I think it can be forgiven.

Sonics2k

Greyjoy wrote: »

It came across as a jarring scene to me. They could have sold it better by having the Klingon display some semblance of fear after all the creature has torn apart the other klingons. Instead the Klingon calmly walks out of the shadows and loudly 'shushes' the boarding party. For a moment I thought the klingon survivor was somehow mocking the Discovery crew.

Klingons don't show fear.

A Klingon showing fear is far less believable than a shushing motion.

meep

Question:

Was the 'kitty' in Lorca's posession at the end the one from the Glenn (transported over before they blew it up) or did the Discovery have one of its own? Or do we not know?

Thx

meep

meep wrote: »

Question:

Was the 'kitty' in Lorca's posession at the end the one from the Glenn (transported over before they blew it up) or did the Discovery have one of its own? Or do we not know?

Thx

My assumption is that it's the one from the Glenn. The Captain thanked the other officer for beaming it on.

Goodshape

Sonics2k wrote: »

Klingons don't show fear.

A Klingon showing fear is far less believable than a shushing motion.

That was the problem I had with the scene; I thought he was showing too much fear. Hiding, slowly revealing himself to the armed Starfleet crew without a fight, then shushing them.

Not exactly the actions of a warrior.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

No more jarring than all the slobbery, microbe-passing tonguing that happens through Trek history.

I do get what you're saying, it was a very random moment bordering on jarring, but intentionally written as a disarmingly funny one; given the context of all the interspecies boning I think it can be forgiven.

To be fair, as dumb as it is, a lot of species in the galaxy have a single common kind of ancestor.

Goodshape

Evade wrote: »

To be fair, as dumb as it is, a lot of species in the galaxy have a single common kind of ancestor.

Yep.



http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_humanoid

Goodshape

Goodshape wrote: »

Yep.



http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Ancient_humanoid

Never copped that was Female Changeling

Greyjoy

Sonics2k wrote: »

Klingons don't show fear.

A Klingon showing fear is far less believable than a shushing motion.

Having a Klingon show fear would have been a very easy way of telling the audience and the boarding party that something very dangerous was aboard the Glenn.

Greyjoy

Greyjoy wrote: »

Having a Klingon show fear would have been a very easy way of telling the audience and the boarding party that something very dangerous was aboard the Glenn.

... and not the mutilated bodies everywhere ...?

Greyjoy

Deleted User wrote: »

... and not the mutilated bodies everywhere ...?

The crew of the Glenn were killed in the test of the experimental drive. Until the survivor appears (and the monster shortly after) there nothing about the dead klingons that suggests there's something else aboard the ship with them. I assumed they were killed trying to capture the Glenn.

FutureGuy

I loved that when the ship came out of Black Alert, the stars behind Michael were different (not that they would be different in real life if you simply moved 300 km, but the ship's orientation may have been different).

I've watched this episode three times and there is SO much to catch. You can see the love that has gone into it.

FutureGuy

Greyjoy wrote: »

Spock keeping his family life private makes complete sense and it enabled the writers to retcon in his half brother Sybok. But Burnham is a different matter from Sybok - she would be infamous in Starfleet circles as both a mutineer & instrumental in the outbreak of the Klingon war. It's much harder to accept that this would never have come up in conversation between Kirk/Spock/McCoy.

But from a character perspective I think it weakens Spock's character. Part of his character background is how he struggled with human emotions both his own and in understanding others. Having a human sibling would have exposed Spock to human emotions all throughout his childhood.

I'd disagree, it's even more likely that he didn't speak about here and we do not know Burnham's eventual path up to the time of ToS and beyond.

Regardless,I'm certain there will be a good explanation.

server down

Greyjoy wrote: »

It came across as a jarring scene to me. They could have sold it better by having the Klingon display some semblance of fear after all the creature has torn apart the other klingons. Instead the Klingon calmly walks out of the shadows and loudly 'shushes' the boarding party. For a moment I thought the klingon survivor was somehow mocking the Discovery crew.

I just see it as universally translated. He totally did something else but the translator translated it ( including hand gestures).

Problem solved.

Inviere

Enjoyed the episode a lot. You could pick it apart for days with the various issues that arose, but the reality is, once you free yourself of the notion that it's set in the Prime Universe, and is in fact far closer to the JJ-verse, it's all good. Really looking forward to the next one!

The_Valeyard

Im just happy that Trek is back on tv.

AMKC

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Im just happy that Trek is back on tv.

Its not back on TV do and Star Trek is not either. I think the Star Trek in front of Discovery should be dropped. I seen an advertisement for it recently and the Discovery does not look like it fly's in space but instead it just drops into where it wants to go looks terrible.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

Its not back on TV do and Star Trek is not either. I think the Star Trek in front of Discovery should be dropped. I seen an advertisement for it recently and the Discovery does not look like it fly's in space but instead it just drops into where it wants to go looks terrible.

Nope, it's Trek.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

Its not back on TV do and Star Trek is not either. I think the Star Trek in front of Discovery should be dropped. I seen an advertisement for it recently and the Discovery does not look like it fly's in space but instead it just drops into where it wants to go looks terrible.

Have you actually watched it?

AMKC

Deleted User wrote: »

Nope, it's Trek.

Well its still not on TV so I will just have to wait till then to decide.

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you actually watched it?

No because it is not yet on TV. When it comes to TV I will watch it until then I will enjoy watching Star Trek as envisioned by the legend himself Gene Roddenberry.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

Well its still not on TV so I will just have to wait till then to decide.



No because it is not yet on TV. When it comes to TV I will watch it until then I will enjoy watching Star Trek as envisioned by the legend himself Gene Roddenberry.

But you're already passing judgement and saying that it's not Trek when you've never actually seen it. This, in itself, is flawed.

pixelburp

AMKC wrote: »

Well its still not on TV so I will just have to wait till then to decide.

No because it is not yet on TV. When it comes to TV I will watch it until then I will enjoy watching Star Trek as envisioned by the legend himself Gene Roddenberry.

Wait, you haven't even watched the show but you're reading & posting in the Episode 3 thread? And declaring what is or isn't Star Trek? That seems a little ... unwise, and a little foolish. Go watch the show, then come back and make declarations about what constitutes Trek

As for waiting for it to be 'on TV', You might be waiting a while TBH, given Netflix has what I believe to be an exclusive deal on the international rights for this show. I'd be surprised if it pops up on Sky. If you don't have a Netflix account, DVD release might be your best bet.

expectationlost

did they rescue the prison transport pilot?

DivingDuck

Negatives:

Does it even need to be said? Spock's foster sister?! I'm not even getting into it.

Turn. On. The lights. TURN ON THE LIGHTS! That they actually invented a condition for a character to have to excuse the "film in the dark for atmosphere" stuff is unbelievable. That most modern TV shows are shot in the dark is especially annoying considering how many people watch (as I am this) on a computer screen where very dark scenes are hard to see.

Burnham's roommate is, so far, the most annoying character of any Trek show. She's teeth-grindingly awful.

It's dumb, but I miss the old uniform designation colours! I don't know who's what at first glance anymore, though the uniforms in general are very cool.

Positives:

Saru continues to be great. It's hilarious to me that I thought his whole concept was going to be one of the weak points of the show, and so far he's been a highlight. We haven't seen too many characters of this stripe in Trek before, so it's fun to see one now. Stamets and Captain Fortune Cookie are also pretty engaging, as is as the Chief of Security whose name escapes me. Looking forward to seeing more of all of these.

As predicted, Burnham has grown on me. The stunt with the creature —What was that thing? Please don't tell me this is a targ now!— endeared her to me, as does her superhuman tolerance of her roommate, who I would probably have smothered to death in the first night. I enjoyed her outsmarting the security protocol, and her speech to Lorca was pretty great, too.

They did well with building excitement about the "project". From pretty early on, I wanted to know more. They're a bit constrained by the timeline, though; presumably this fails miserably, otherwise we'd have seen this technology in the future?

I liked this episode a lot more than the two previous ones— it felt a lot more like "real Trek" than the pilot. A little darker, yeah, mainly because Lorca seems as shady as a midsummer's evening, but it makes sense for the setting of the show. (The... Context, I suppose. :pac:) Overall, much more Trek-y than the pilot. Maybe they realized after shooting it that people wanted something different to the JJ Trek stuff? They could easily have dumped the first two episodes and opened with this one. More like this in future, please...!

Addressing the points, without spoiling anything (or at least trying hard).

Burnham's roommate: In fairness, when Dr. Bashir was introduced first in Deep Space 9, he was nothing more than a sex pest -- extremely arrogant, and one of the worst characters I had seen in a Trek franchise. And then the character (and the actor) started to grow naturally to become one of the best of any Trek franchise. This is the same for many other characters - Harry Kim from Voyager, who was so meek to the point of being irritating, before his character grew, and I'm sure there's many other instances.

Point I'm making is that (at this point), you're only 3 episodes in - it's early days to pass judgements yet. She might be one of the best characters in the Trek franchise too! (not saying Harry Kim was -- he definitely definitely wasn't, but he got better.).

With regards to the uniform-- I don't know if this is a spoiler, but I believe it was mentioned at some point that there's a difference between Star Fleet and the Federation. I'm not sure. But would explain the difference in uniforms. Plus we're hundred something years before the likes of TNG/Voyager/Deep Space 9, where the uniforms we know and love became standard. I'd say they're closer to Enterprise-era uniforms.

Tilly is easily the MOST regular Trek thing about the show.

Full of optimism, naive, bubbly and saccharine (just like root beer) yet she's a hate point for a lot of the "it's not trek" crew

I like her, you know that she'll get more reserved as she develops which is kinda a shame

Evade

Tilly is STD's Wesley.

Goodshape

Tilly is DSC's heart.

pixelburp

Hey, leave Tilly alone, she's great!

But, I'll be honest, I wasn't sure what to make of her from that initial appearance; the script really leaned into the fashionable trope of the genius with no social skills or conversational filter. Subsequent episodes haven't borne that out, softening those quick-sketch edges, and Tilly as mentioned stands as the obvious Federation benchmark human; hugely empathetic / compassionate, with an obviously strong scientific and exploratory itch. For a show that has come under scrutiny on whether it is truly 'Trek' or not, IMO Tilly is the most 'Trek' aspect there.

She's definitely not Discovery's Wesley either; she's not written as some 'chosen one' style super-genius as the prime definition of her person; she has some clear character flaws holding her back personally & professionally - but if anything those flaws of low confidence and inherent shyness are very relatable to me as a viewer than the more dramatically potent ones Lorca & Burnham exhibit.

So again, Tilly's great.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Tilly is STD's Wesley.

Ha. That did make me laugh, but I think slightly wrong. I think she's closer to the aforementioned Harry Kim of Voyager; someone green, with little experience and zero confidence.