Discovery - Timeline, continuity and other canonical issues [** SPOILERS **]

corkie

corkie wrote: »

Science Fantasy instead of Science Fiction --- "The DASH"


New 'Star Trek' Series Makes Massive Science Blunder

The new Star Trek: Discovery series is based on a massive scientific error. Can it survive?


The DASH ~ (Displacement Activated Spore Hub) drive ~ Spore Drive.

Articles like that annoy me. It's science fiction for a reason. If you want to look for something more science-based, look elsewhere. Star Trek has never been like that. And don't forget - there are near omnipotent beings that exist, so that's pretty much as far away as science-based as you can possibly get.

fxotoole

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Articles like that annoy me. It's science fiction for a reason. If you want to look for something more science-based, look elsewhere. Star Trek has never been like that. And don't forget - there are near omnipotent beings that exist, so that's pretty much as far away as science-based as you can possibly get.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Q, for example, appears to be omnipotent. He could just be a normal human, using technology that is centuries ahead of what the TNG crew are familiar with, and is posing as a god.

flaneur

fxotoole wrote: »

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Q, for example, appears to be omnipotent. He could just be a normal human, using technology that is centuries ahead of what the TNG crew are familiar with, and is posing as a god.

Didn't TNG actually do that in "Devil's Due"

Evade

flaneur wrote: »

Didn't TNG actually do that in "Devil's Due"

Sort of. I don't think any of the crew believed Ardra's claims but the people on the planet certainly did. The Prophets in DS9 were probably the best example of tech-gods.

Picard himself accidentally became the head of a pantheon of gods in Who Watches the Watchers.

The weirdest version of the tech god thing is the planet in Justice* which appears to be a pre-warp society that worships some kind of space station. What was the Prime Directive for again? It's possible that they've just socially regressed to a child like state due to having replicators etc but the PD probably still applies.

*How much better would TNG have been if Wesley had been executed in this episode?

pixelburp

Something that was niggling me a little was that until this weeks episode, I was pretty sure we didn't get a name for the only other non-human on the bridge - I heard something like "Ariam", the metallic woman that got the odd line here & there. Always seemed like a lot of make up spent on an otherwise fleeting character; do we even know if she's meant to be an alien, robot, something else?

Goodshape

It read in an article that she's an augmented human. I think we'll be seeing more of her.

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

It read in an article that she's an augmented human. I think we'll be seeing more of her.

pixelburp

What's the problem? If what Goodshape says is true, it doesn't break canon given it's just genetic augmentation that's banned (mentioned in Discovery already too). Cybernetic augments never came up IIRC, presumably because that only started becoming more topical and relevant after Trek left the airwaves & medical research really ramped up. Could be an interesting angle, if she does indeed get more screen time.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

What's the problem? If what Goodshape says is true, it doesn't break canon given it's just genetic augmentation that's banned (mentioned in Discovery already too). Cybernetic augments never came up IIRC, presumably because that only started becoming more topical and relevant after Trek left the airwaves & medical research really ramped up. Could be an interesting angle, if she does indeed get more screen time.

The Borg.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

The Borg.

Which are neither contradicted nor negated by the presence of augmented humans.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Which are neither contradicted nor negated by the presence of augmented humans.

It's not like it's ever been said there was absolutely never any cybernetically enhanced humans in the history of Star Trek so it's not a direct contradiction. But the Borg were such an alien concept to the TNG crew that having a cybernetically augmented human (or alien*) as part of the Discovery's crew is more than a little odd. It would be like an artificial intelligence in a robot body as part of the crew. That wouldn't directly contradict the uniqueness of Data being the first android in Starfleet but it does at the very least step on his toes.

*I know there was the Binar in early TNG and that is a plot hole that hasn't been addressed as far as I know but that still doesn't give this a pass.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

It's not like it's ever been said there was absolutely never any cybernetically enhanced humans in the history of Star Trek so it's not a direct contradiction. But the Borg were such an alien concept to the TNG crew that having a cybernetically augmented human (or alien*) as part of the Discovery's crew is more than a little odd. It would be like an artificial intelligence in a robot body as part of the crew. That wouldn't directly contradict the uniqueness of Data being the first android in Starfleet but it does at the very least step on his toes.

*I know there was the Binar in early TNG and that is a plot hole that hasn't been addressed as far as I know but that still doesn't give this a pass.

I dunno, thematically you could easily rationalise those early TNG episodes in that the concept of a malevolent technological hivemind, one that was utterly incapable of negotiation or compromise, was what threw the crew - Picard in particular, being as he was the master negotiator throughout the series. Even other hivemind races were open to the notion of a diplomatic chat.

Like the holograms, augmented humans feels on point with what we now see as the technological zeitgeist. Transhumanism is a real and demonstrable idea now, more than it has ever been and while genetic augmentation has been tackled in Trek through Dr. Bashir, cybernetic augmentation remains unexplored as a concept ( and may remain thus, we don't know if this crewmember will get any extra screentime). The Borg have unfairly dominated the subject and are too much of an extreme

Goodshape

We don't know anything about her to be fair. They could be mostly cosmetic. Maybe augments is the 23rd century's tattoo and she was a rebellious teenager.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

I dunno, thematically you could easily rationalise those early TNG episodes in that the concept of a malevolent technological hivemind, one that was utterly incapable of negotiation or compromise, was what threw the crew - Picard in particular, being as he was the master negotiator throughout the series. Even other hivemind races were open to the notion of a diplomatic chat.

Like the holograms, augmented humans feels on point with what we now see as the technological zeitgeist. Transhumanism is a real and demonstrable idea now, more than it has ever been and while genetic augmentation has been tackled in Trek through Dr. Bashir, cybernetic augmentation remains unexplored as a concept ( and may remain thus, we don't know if this crewmember will get any extra screentime). The Borg have unfairly dominated the subject and are too much of an extreme

Seems like all these concepts would have been a lot easier if they weren't dead set on making STD a prequel or have it set in the prime universe.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

I love that in that posted facepalm there is a reflection of a fully synthetic man. Wonder if the poster would have felt the same in the 80s?

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Seems like all these concepts would have been a lot easier if they weren't dead set on making STD a prequel or have it set in the prime universe.

Or that the design team have a bit of cop on, considering that we are already beginning to cybernetically augment humans in our time.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

I love that in that posted facepalm there is a reflection of a fully synthetic man. Wonder if the poster would have felt the same in the 80s?

The artificial man I referenced here

Evade wrote: »

It would be like an artificial intelligence in a robot body as part of the crew. That wouldn't directly contradict the uniqueness of Data being the first android in Starfleet but it does at the very least step on his toes.

The problem I have is the dreaded c-word. This stuff wasn't around, or at least not known to the Federation, in the mid 24th century but here it is 100 years earlier. TNG didn't really have this problem, it being a sequel and all.

Deleted User wrote: »

Or that the design team have a bit of cop on, considering that we are already beginning to cybernetically augment humans in our time.

I have no problem with Star Treks history and our own diverged at some point and the constant need to change things to make it catch up is dumb. This isn't exclusively the fault of STD, Voyager and Enterprise did it too.

AMKC

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Ah, I pick it up as I go. I've seen every episode of every incarnation of the franchise. They'll come to me.
I like that it's more edgy. Could do without the opening sequence reminiscent of 'House'.

Same here. Well the first one is Captain Lorca then there is ok only joking.
I know about 5 of them no idea what the doctors name is do or the navigator and helmsman.
I am hoping that there is a new opening sequence for the second season.

pixelburp wrote: »

Something that was niggling me a little was that until this weeks episode, I was pretty sure we didn't get a name for the only other non-human on the bridge - I heard something like "Ariam", the metallic woman that got the odd line here & there. Always seemed like a lot of make up spent on an otherwise fleeting character; do we even know if she's meant to be an alien, robot, something else?

Same here.No idea but I hope we get to see and learn more about her.

Goodshape wrote: »

It read in an article that she's an augmented human. I think we'll be seeing more of her.

Hope so.

Evade wrote: »

Seems like all these concepts would have been a lot easier if they weren't dead set on making STD a prequel or have it set in the prime universe.

They sure would and less controversial as well.

Evade

Evade wrote: »

The problem I have is the dreaded c-word. This stuff wasn't around, or at least not known to the Federation, in the mid 24th century but here it is 100 years earlier. TNG didn't really have this problem, it being a sequel and all.

She is augmented, how much we don't know.

We've see NCC1701 to E DS9 and Voyager. Barely a blip in the diversity of the Federation, hell TNG had the bynars far far ahead of any cybernetic augmentation you will see on this show (I imagine).

There is no reason to NOT have cybernetic crew especially as the show has repeatedly shown the tech level to be similar to our own in development.
TOS showing 1960s
STIV showing 1980s
Voyager showing 1990s

All at our level and would make less sense to curb any advancement, to match limited effects and budgets.

If something that small suspends your disbelief then I think that this show is always going to be hard for you to get immersed in

server down

Geordi La Forge was an augmented human.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

She is augmented, how much we don't know.

Has that been confirmed or is it just speculation?

Deleted User wrote: »

TNG had the bynars far far ahead of any cybernetic augmentation you will see on this show (I imagine).

Are they in the Federation, they looked more like a neighbouring independent system? They certainly should have been mentioned in the Borg TNG episodes and that's a plot hole that annoys me too.

Deleted User wrote: »

There is no reason to NOT have cybernetic crew

I can think of at least one.

Deleted User wrote: »

If something that small suspends your disbelief then I think that this show is always going to be hard for you to get immersed in

I'd probably like STD a lot more if I knew a lot less about Star Trek.

What I don't understand is why, given that there is a "ZOMG canonz issues" thread, specific episode threads are constantly filled with tiny aspects which have nothing to do with the episode.

Mitch Connor

Deleted User wrote: »

What I don't understand is why, given that there is a "ZOMG canonz issues" thread, specific episode threads are constantly filled with tiny aspects which have nothing to do with the episode.

Internet conversations diverging into tangents? HOW UN-UNDERSTANDABLE!

Mitch Connor

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Internet conversations diverging into tangents? HOW UN-UNDERSTANDABLE!

They really do have nothing to do with the episode at hand, though, and more go into canonical issues, which does have a dedicated thread.

But, as pointed out, LaForge was an augmented human.

pixelburp

I feel this tangent is all my fault really all 'cos that mysterious robot-woman finally got a name (and apparently is senior enough to captain the bridge in Lorca/Saru's absence). IIRC the other bridge regulars got name-checked too...

server down wrote: »

Geordi La Forge was an augmented human.

That's very true & easy to forget; I guess there is a little bit of precedence for transhumanism in Star Trek then, but IMO it remains a fairly unexplored concept in a franchise that has, to a greater or lesser extent, has covered nearly every major shift in social or technological dynamics for humanity.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

I feel this tangent is all my fault really all 'cos that mysterious robot-woman finally got a name (and apparently is senior enough to captain the bridge in Lorca/Saru's absence). IIRC the other bridge regulars got name-checked too...



That's very true & easy to forget; I guess there is a little bit of precedence for transhumanism in Star Trek then, but IMO it remains a fairly unexplored concept in a franchise that has, to a greater or lesser extent, has covered nearly every major shift in social or technological dynamics for humanity.

But humanity moves on and new technologies come along every day - we have stuff around now that seemed total science fiction during any of the previous Trek franchises.

Trek has always tried to remain current, so to stay like this, then the cannon needs to evolve.

The_Valeyard

I want them to bring back this robot thing.

Evade

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I want them to bring back this robot thing.

Is she some kind of ship's avatar? Or is it some kind of VR headset?
It says USS Shenzhou on the side of her head/device.

Geordie's a good illustration of the level of augmentation that could be achieved in the 24th century.

If my posts are too off topic there's a report button you can use.

Goodshape

Geordie's a good illustration of the level of augmentation that could be dreamed up and put on TV in the 1980s.

The visor doesn't seem all that revolutionary now. Do you really want a new Star Trek show that pretends we won't have tech like that for another 300 years?

I mean, we're getting pretty close already –
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_enhancement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberware


This is all a good illustration of why we needed a visual and tech overhaul of the series, regardless of what in-universe year the thing is set.

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

This is all a good illustration of why we needed a visual and tech overhaul of the series, regardless of what in-universe year the thing is set.

I don't agree. If we invented FTL drives tomorrow I wouldn't expect Star Trek to try retcon that fact into its history, the same goes for everything else. They can tell all kinds of stories via allegory or alien civilisations or quantum nonsense. Or in the 25th century where artificial intelligences are already established and cyberisation could be easily explained as being an off shoot of Borg tech research.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

I don't agree. If we invented FTL drives tomorrow I wouldn't expect Star Trek to try retcon that fact into its history, the same goes for everything else. They can tell all kinds of stories via allegory or alien civilisations or quantum nonsense. Or in the 25th century where artificial intelligences are already established and cyberisation could be easily explained as being an off shoot of Borg tech research.

I think cybernetic augmentation isn't a stretch here. Honestly, I found the presence of holograms in Discovery a bit jarring even if I kinda got on with it; but given there are already humanoid robots in The Original Series (as used by Harry Mudd no less), brain transplants, and Geordi leForge later demonstrating a slightly hokey approach to cybernetic enhancement, the precedent already feels strong enough that the canon can accommodate human beings wanting to augment themselves during the pre-Kirk era.

Goodshape

Evade wrote: »

I don't agree. If we invented FTL drives tomorrow I wouldn't expect Star Trek to try retcon that fact into its history, the same goes for everything else. They can tell all kinds of stories via allegory or alien civilisations or quantum nonsense. Or in the 25th century where artificial intelligences are already established and cyberisation could be easily explained as being an off shoot of Borg tech research.

Then you really are getting away from the spirit of Star Trek as a (usually) optimistic look at humanity's future. Turning into just another fantasy world with it's own fantasy history and fantasy rules to adhere to.

It's a marmite issue, obviously, but I like seeing our possible future in Star Trek. It's not Star Wars; I don't want to pretend it has it's own version of history – with a eugenics war in the 1990s and technology we have today not being invented for hundreds more years. Those are just things which made sense in the 1960s.

CramCycle

Evade wrote: »

I don't agree. If we invented FTL drives tomorrow I wouldn't expect Star Trek to try retcon that fact into its history, the same goes for everything else. They can tell all kinds of stories via allegory or alien civilisations or quantum nonsense. Or in the 25th century where artificial intelligences are already established and cyberisation could be easily explained as being an off shoot of Borg tech research.

I am in two minds myself, it is not our universe, it is fiction, it does not have to follow our level of development. On the same note, if there are items that can be added that were not noticeable in the other series but do not strongly impede on the other series, I don't see the harm.

The Eugenics wars were not in Voyager, and they really should have been, or they should have had the time trip go further back in time. i don't buy this, it just didn't happen in that city, rubbish.

Augmentation is one that I cannot see an issue with, you can say at different points in history it was more or less in vogue, so in some periods you see bracelets rather than implants, or maybe only some people liked having them and they were not a large percentage of people, hence, it is their but it doesn't really need nitpicking. maybe some ships happened to have alot of augmented individuals, and others had none. i don't want people going round "Star Wars"ing it and adding in background characters and equipment to the classics and rereleasing them just to make it seem more in line.

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

I think cybernetic augmentation isn't a stretch here. Honestly, I found the presence of holograms in Discovery a bit jarring even if I kinda got on with it; but given there are already humanoid robots in The Original Series (as used by Harry Mudd no less), brain transplants, and Geordi leForge later demonstrating a slightly hokey approach to cybernetic enhancement, the precedent already feels strong enough that the canon can take human beings wanting to augment themselves during the pre-Kirk era.

Spock's Brain and I, Mudd were both due to alien technology and I think that would be a good way to have these issues brought up. Just don't have them be long standing full fledged members of Starfleet. Even a mysterious alien that signs up on the Discovery could be a way around it.

I think Mudd's time distorting device is a good example of how this sort of thing should be done.

pixelburp

Evade wrote: »

Spock's Brain and I, Mudd were both due to alien technology and I think that would be a good way to have these issues brought up. Just don't have them be long standing full fledged members of Starfleet. Even a mysterious alien that signs up on the Discovery could be a way around it.

I think Mudd's time distorting device is a good example of how this sort of thing should be done.

But the source of the technology doesn't negate its presence in what could be considered the ... I dunno, topology of Trek. Even if we ignore the real-world advances in transhumanism for the sake of pristine canon, the precedent of similar(ish) tech already within the realm of existing Trek continuity means that it's not a stretch to think that augmentation found its way into the Federation & its citizens. Is it not probable / possible that alien tech might find its way to the Federation, be it sanctioned or not? I'm sure not everything needs to be as legally problematic as cloaking devices (though it was interesting how quickly the supposedly required Romulan officer disappeared from the Defiant bridge in DS9; canon is verbatim! Uh, until it isn't )

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

But the source of the technology doesn't negate its presence in what could be considered the ... I dunno, topology of Trek. Even if we ignore the real-world advances in transhumanism for the sake of pristine canon, the precedent of similar(ish) tech already within the realm of existing Trek continuity means that it's not a stretch to think that augmentation found its way into the Federation & its citizens. Is it not probable / possible that alien tech might find its way to the Federation, be it sanctioned or not?

The Federation, sure, it's possible but a Starfleet officer? I can't buy that.

pixelburp wrote: »

I'm sure not everything needs to be as legally problematic as cloaking devices (though it was interesting how quickly the supposedly required Romulan officer disappeared from the Defiant bridge in DS9; canon is verbatim! Uh, until it isn't )

Benjamin "I forgot to get clearance for attempted ethnic cleansing" Sisko breaking the rules seems pretty canon to me. But more seriously the Defiant's cloak and it's use in the Alpha Quadrant is a plot hole but Star Trek having plot holes in its previous 600+ hours of content doesn't give STD a pass.

server down

Evade wrote: »

The Federation, sure, it's possible but a Starfleet officer? I can't buy that.

Geordi La Forge.

Look, for someone who wants canon you dont seem to know basic canon. As it happens we dont know how many other people had some hidden augmentations .
I am sure there are plenty of humans in the star trek future with hidden augments, I know some in the present with fake knees.

Evade

server down wrote: »

Geordi La Forge.

Look, for someone who wants canon you dont seem to know basic canon. As it happens we dont know how many other people had some hidden augmentations .
I am sure there are plenty of humans in the star trek future with hidden augments, I know some in the present with fake knees.

I should have been a bit clearer I was referring to the level of augmentation Airiam appears to have. It seems rather more advanced that Geordie's VISOR, Picard's heart, or Tuvok's elbow.

I have no problem with the implant Keyla Detmer appears to have as it looks like a less advanced more invasive version of the VISOR.

Maybe I should have said Geordi's VISOR is a good example of what the limits of 24th century augmentation are. Oh, wait...

Evade wrote: »

Geordi's a good illustration of the level of augmentation that could be achieved in the 24th century.

silverharp

^^

Id imagine by the 24th C they will be able to grow eyeballs in a lab if not have perfectly serviceable "bionic eyes"

Sad Professor

The_Valeyard

i was under the impression that the Romulans decided they didnt need an officer on the Defiant, just all access to ship logs, mission data when cloak used and all info gathered on the Dominion.

Evade

The_Valeyard wrote: »

i was under the impression that the Romulans decided they didnt need an officer on the Defiant, just all access to ship logs, mission data when cloak used and all info gathered on the Dominion.

I think that's the idea the writers had but it's never explicitly stated on screen.

seamus

Thing is, this is all splitting hairs while we have no idea what the augmentation actually is. Or whether it's actually an augmentation.

For all we know she was horribly injured in an accident or due to an illness, and a system of plates, synthetic grafts and robotics was the only way to save her life.

By the 24th century, medical technology has moved on from such drastic measures, so this kind of restorative augmentation is as foreign to the TNG crew as an iron lung is to us today.

That speculation is just as valid as any other

PhiloCypher

Evade wrote: »

The Federation, sure, it's possible but a Starfleet officer? I can't buy that.


Benjamin "I forgot to get clearance for attempted ethnic cleansing" Sisko breaking the rules seems pretty canon to me. But more seriously the Defiant's cloak and it's use in the Alpha Quadrant is a plot hole but Star Trek having plot holes in its previous 600+ hours of content doesn't give STD a pass.

I think the argument is more , if this similar plothole didn't ruin TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY for you why are you acting like the sky is falling in Discovery . I think that's a perfectly valid point tbh .

Evade

PhiloCypher wrote: »

I think the argument is more , if this similar plothole didn't ruin TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY for you why are you acting like the sky is falling in Discovery . I think that's a perfectly valid point tbh .

It's the volume of inconsistencies. Other Trek might have had one or two minor things every few episodes but STD just keep piling them on and so far a lot of it just seems to be change for the sake of change.

Kirby

Plot holes and inconsistencies are only important if you make them important. Every piece of fiction, particularly fantasy and sci-fi, is riddled with them.

Just sit back and enjoy it. Quirks/retcons of canon should be welcomed to be honest. There are aspects of trek that should be forgotten about at this stage tbh.

I'm not in love with how the klingons for example, are being portrayed here by any stretch of the imagination. It's very unlike what we have seen of klingons in every other show. But whatever....the show is new. Roll with it.

Optimus Prime

At the start i was getting annoyed with all the changes and plotholes, especially the klingons. After a few episodes i kept hoping all the plothole and changes would be explained to bring them into line with previous shows. I think at this point after seeing early holodocks, different klingons, different ships, attitude of star fleet officers, ridiculous distance mind melds and so on that its pretty obvious the writers wont be lining everything up and just are doing their own thing from scratch ignoring previous canon.

I can accept that and watch the show for what it is. But i personally think its stupid and the same TV show could have been achieved while respecting whats come before very easily. They just chose not to and are aiming the show at new trek fans that went to see the JJ films and to me, they just went for the new audience, the most watches and ultimately how they can make the most money. which is fine and understandable, I just personally wished they paid more respect to the previous shows.

Im enjoying the show for what it is but cant help think how better it would be if simple things where just changed to keep it in line with whats come before. Thats just my opinion on it.

Goodshape

Optimus Prime wrote: »

They just chose not to and are aiming the show at new trek fans that went to see the JJ films and to me, they just went for the new audience

I resent being thought of as a "new Trek fan" or as someone who wants to see more JJ-Trek

I'm just happy to have a Star Trek that isn't bogged down in 50-years of messed up half-baked 'canon' and has the courage to refresh the franchise in a way that Enterprise so miserably failed to do.

I think that would have been a more difficult task in the 24th century, and going forward would only make things more ridiculous, so I'm not at all upset about the 23rd century setting.

And I really don't see how the adventures of the USS Discovery negate the adventures of the USS Enterprise in any way.

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

I'm just happy to have a Star Trek that isn't bogged down in 50-years of messed up half-baked 'canon' and has the courage to refresh the franchise in a way that Enterprise so miserably failed to do.

So you want a reboot then? That's fine, I can see the argument for one but STD is supposed to be set in the universe that has all that messy canon so I don't see the problem in holding it to it.

Goodshape

Evade wrote: »

So you want a reboot then? That's fine, I can see the argument for one but STD is supposed to be set in the universe that has all that messy canon so I don't see the problem in holding it to it.

Not a reboot, just a series that isn't bogged down in 50-years of messed up half-baked 'canon' and has the courage to refresh the franchise in a way that Enterprise so miserably failed to do.

That's as opposed to a reboot, which I'd take to mean a restart, which would throw out and/or remake the existing stories.

I see the difference in Discovery vs TOS to be "we're making this series 50 years later", not "we're rebooting the franchise and those old stories didn't happen anymore".