Vegas shooting incident

Dave_The_Sheep

BattleCorp wrote: »

I have target rifles that are solely designed for target shooting. These types of guns aren't designed for violence. They are designed for hitting the head of a pin from a good distance away.

A gun is designed for violence. It doesn't have non-violent utility (hunting is by definition violent, before it gets mentioned), other than maybe as a really heavy expensive paperweight.

These rifles may be able to hit the head of a pin from a good distance, but they're used for either a) violence or b) practising for violence.

BattleCorp

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

A gun is designed for violence. It doesn't have non-violent utility (hunting is by definition violent, before it gets mentioned).

These rifles may be able to hit the head of a pin from a good distance, but they're used for either a) violence or b) practising for violence.

I take part in target shooting. Believe it or not but it's an internationally recognised sport. It's even in the Olympics.

I practice for sport, not for violence.

RebelButtMunch

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Sometimes people are just plain evil, no left wing, no right wing, no Islamist etc.. just evil. Maybe that what this guy was and there was and never will be any answer.

He wasn't evil. He was mentally ill, supposedly had gambling debts, and had lots of guns at his disposal. That's two, maybe three things , right there that are actionable.

Madd Finn

markodaly wrote: »

Cearly you know nothing. The IRA of the 1918-1921 variety did ok with limited guns and ammunition. The Provos turned the north into a war zone and fought a modern army with, yes you guessed it, nuclear arms, attack helicopters, tanks etc. to a military stalemate. More recently ISIS carved out a pseudo state with little more than willpower and automatic weapons. Again, you clearly know nothing.

I'm the one who knows nothing??? Whatever about ISIS (about which I will not claim to know much) the examples of the IRA's struggles in Ireland in the 20s and more recently support MY case, not yours.

These took place in a society where the populace was, generally speaking, NOT armed. The ordinary Joe, especially those of the Irish/Catholic variety did NOT have access to legal firearms. But a dedicated military effort with some political support, whether or not you agree with it, will always be able to find backers against a sovereign enemy. (My enemy's enemy is my friend and all that.)

This is absolutely NOT the same as the situation in the US. Northern Ireland was recognised as a conflict situation. People got Nobel Peace Prizes for trying to sort it out. Events like Bloody Friday, Bloody Sunday, Loughgall, Loughinisland were seen as horrific atrocities that had to be stopped; not as ho hum this is the sort of thing that can happen at a country and western concert!

The IRA, who haven't gone away you know, were quite prepared to discuss "decommissioning" as part of the overall settlement. Nowhere were they asking for the general populace to be armed as a safeguard against state oppression. I guess they're just cleverer than your average "conservative" American.

Or Offaly man.

markodaly wrote: »

Kind of rich to be talking about the rule of law, when the law of the land in the US expressly protects gun ownership and the only way to change that is to carry out an ammendment to the consitition which no one think is possible as the people, yes those people who vote in a democracy wont allow it. But yea, democracy and the rule of law or something, something.

My point is that most people in most normal democracies have sufficient faith in the law in their own countries not to feel that it needs to be backed up with a Magnum under their pillow.

markodaly wrote: »

Many countries have similar openness to guns as America, Canada and Switzerland for example.

Now who knows nothing?

You may NOT bear arms in Switzerland or Canada in the same way as you do in the US. In Canada you can have a gun for hunting (many people do) but you may NOT tote it around in a loaded state ready to blow the head off anyone who disagrees with you. Or whom you may THINK wants to take it off you and kill you with it after you pick a fight with them.
Whereas in America that is perfectly permissible within the law as the Trayvon Martin case proved.

In Switzerland, they have weapons at home as part of a "well regulated Militia". Again, you cannot walk around with these guns in a loaded state. People accept they are for national defence, not eternal vigilance against their own government. Or as protection against shoplifters.

Despite this, Switzerland DOES have a high gun homicide rate. By European standards, not by American.

markodaly wrote: »

Again, you know nothing as handguns as per SCOTUS is expressly protected. If you don't want to own a handgun, don't buy one. Isn't that how it works?

Of course I wasn't talking about America in that sentence. Every idiot, even people from Offaly, knows that owning a pistol is a God-given right in the US. I was talking about other countries, such as Britain and Ireland, where owning a pistol is heavily restricted or outlawed altogether. As it is in Britain post Dumblane.

markodaly wrote: »

My country? Again, you know nothing as I am Irish.

If Offaly wants to become the Irish Catalonia I'll back you all the way.

SAVE OUR GENE POOL!!!!

markodaly wrote: »

Ah, the Us and them argument. Proves my point to a certain degree about Irish armchair experts on America.

I already said it is not for us to tell America what their gun laws should be. But we can absolutely have an opinion on what sort of society ensues as a result and whether we would want a similar situation here.

I absolutely do not and if there is a danger that there are some people in this country, like say from Offaly, who envy the American situation and would like to introduce it here then they must be confronted and slapped down. Figuratively speaking of course.

markodaly wrote: »

Are you John Snow by any chance?

Don't watch Game of Thrones. Of course if you are talking about the highly respected British telejournalist: of course not. I'm Irish.
Not from Offaly.

Australia Enjoys Another Peaceful Day Under Oppressive Gun Control Regime

I think we should all be glad that nowadays, guns are only used by hunters and criminals in Ireland. The typical psycho, who wants to inflict as much damage as possible, doesn't have access to them.

Sure there's some fear of terrorism but as for the actual crazies, not so much.

BattleCorp

Deleted User wrote: »

Australia Enjoys Another Peaceful Day Under Oppressive Gun Control Regime

I think we should all be glad that nowadays, guns are only used by hunters and criminals in Ireland. The typical psycho, who wants to inflict as much damage as possible, doesn't have access to them.

That's not correct that guns are only used by hunters and criminals here in Ireland.

Guns are also used by target shooters here. There are clay pigeon clubs in every county, and many counties have several clubs. There are also many ranges here for rifle and pistol shooting. The range that I'm a member of has almost 400 members.

fryup

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Sometimes people are just plain evil, no left wing, no right wing, no Islamist etc.. just evil. Maybe that what this guy was and there was and never will be any answer.

most of the time it turns out that these people are loners who live solidarity lifestyles who's contempt for people and society builds up over the years ...and then one day they snap

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

That's not correct that guns are only used by hunters and criminals here in Ireland.

Guns are also used by target shooters here. There are clay pigeon clubs in every county, and many counties have several clubs. There are also many ranges here for rifle and pistol shooting. The range that I'm a member of has almost 400 members.

To the layman like myself, target shooters fall in the hunter category. Are the checks strict for it?

BillyBobBS

fryup wrote: »

most of the time it turns out that these people are loners who live solidarity lifestyles who's contempt for people and society builds up over the years ...and then one day they snap

Or maybe shock horror he was plain evil.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote: »

To the layman like myself, target shooters fall in the hunter category. Are the checks strict for it?

i have experienced clay shooting here and it is strictly regulated, thankfully.

Hmm, at the start of this thread, I posted that in one of the videos, it sounded like two guns at the same.

I just read that it was because of the bullets from the gun used cause sonic booms. Any truth to that?

jaykay74

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Or maybe shock horror he was plain evil.

Are Americans more evil than most you think? Given the huge number of mass shooting occurences...

AnneFrank

i've done clay pigeon shooting too and it's great,
in the case of padraig nally it's lucky he had a shotgun

seamus

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Or maybe shock horror he was plain evil.

That's convenient. No need to wonder if it could have been stopped days, weeks, months or even years ago.

Nope, "just plain evil folks, wrap it up here, nothing we could have done to prevent this".

BattleCorp

Deleted User wrote: »

To the layman like myself, target shooters fall in the hunter category. Are the checks strict for it?

The criteria for being allowed a gun here is very strict.

In no particular order:

1. You must be of good character. In other words, the Gardaí must be of the opinion that you will be responsible with a gun. If you have a history of violence, substance abuse etc., then you can forget about it.

2. You must have a 'genuine reason' to have the gun. Apart from the very very rare exceptions, there are only three 'genuine reasons' for having a gun here in Ireland. These are hunting, vermin control and target shooting. Guns aren't allowed for self defence here.

3. You must provide character references.

4. You must grant the Gardaí permission to check up on you with your doctor - to see if you have a history of mental illness etc.

5. If you are getting a pistol, you must be a member of a range that caters for pistols.

6. If you want the gun for hunting, you must provide letters of permission to prove that you have land that you are going to hunt on.

7. There are secure storage regulations. I can't have my guns under my bed or under my pillow. They have to be secured in a safe when not in use. There are requirements for monitored alarms etc. if you have a certain number of guns.

There are lots of other things too but I'm still not fully awake so that'll have to do for now.

Danzy

OhHiMark wrote: »

So what you're saying is that it's not the guns, it's just that Americans as a people aren't responsible enough to handle them?

There is something deeply messed up in the American attitude to guns. (Just to clarify, I own guns, have target shot them since 9 and owned my first Shotgun at 13).

It is a cultural thing, there are places that have as many similar weapons where the use of them is not replicated and mass murder is not a daily occurrence.

Is it the Wild West legacy of the movies and culture, rugged individualism where a man fights back, who knows?

Add in it, the mental health issues and ready access to weapons most armies would envy and it leads to problems.

A case in point regarding culture, Serbia does not have these mass shootings and they are awash with assault rifles and even up to anti tank grenades etc, left over from the Yugoslav army, the civil war etc etc.

BattleCorp

jaykay74 wrote: »

Are Americans more evil than most you think? Given the huge number of mass shooting occurences...

I've lived over there years ago and they do seem to resort to violence a lot quicker than your average Irish bloke over here.

Zubeneschamali

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

He wasn't evil. He was mentally ill

What evidence have you seen that he was mentally ill?

Wanderer78

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

What evidence have you seen that he was mentally ill?

would an emotionally and mentally stable person do this?

homerjay2005

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

What evidence have you seen that he was mentally ill?

hmmm i dunno, around 60 people dead and over 500 injured seems to be enough evidence.

irishrover99

http://www.denverpost.com/2017/09/30/toddler-shootings-guns/

The land of the free. This article says everything.

Dave_The_Sheep

BattleCorp wrote: »

I take part in target shooting. Believe it or not but it's an internationally recognised sport. It's even in the Olympics.

I practice for sport, not for violence.

I am well aware of that. I personally know one of the members of the Irish national team, for example.

That doesn't change, in the slightest, what the weapon is designed for.

You're, either intentionally or otherwise, ignoring the point that the weapon (either practise or real) has one purpose. Violence. You might use it for sport, but the sole purpose of the weapon is to shoot things (in this country, it's usually game) either for real or to practise for it.

Kermit.de.frog

I do find it ironic that a lot of people outside the US criticise them for interfering in other countries and yet the exact same people have no qualms interfering in internal US issues like on guns and other issues.

Personally I don't think it's any of our business what their gun ownership policies are.

Pelvis

He's white, he's mentally ill.

If he was brown, Islam!

Zubeneschamali

homerjay2005 wrote: »

hmmm i dunno, around 60 people dead and over 500 injured seems to be enough evidence.

So which particular mental illness is this a symptom of?

The_Kew_Tour

Pelvis wrote: »

He's white, he's mentally ill.

If he was brown, Islam!

Not true, but anyway

seamus

BattleCorp wrote: »

I've lived over there years ago and they do seem to resort to violence a lot quicker than your average Irish bloke over here.

Capitalism/Libertarianism over the last century has whipped the US up into a very competitive society. It creates a culture where there are no spectators, just winners and losers. If you're not wealthy, you're a loser, you've failed.

This has infected the entire culture and everything becomes binary - Left/Right, Communist/Capitalist, Men/Women, Black/White, North/South.

There is no room for the middle ground - If you're not with me, you're against me.
Thus, every man looks out for himself because he assumes that random Joe Bloggs on the street is a potential threat until proven otherwise.

Wanderer78

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

So which particular mental illness is this a symptom of?

hard to say, only professionals could truly answer that, but it does seem like to my untrained professional eye, he had a major psychotic episode

Zubeneschamali

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Personally I don't think it's any of our business what their gun ownership policies are.

We are just commenting on a discussion board, it's not like we are going to invade them and steal their guns.

That's a job for the UN black helicopters.

BattleCorp

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

You're, either intentionally or otherwise, ignoring the point that the weapon (either practise or real) has one purpose. Violence. You might use it for sport, but the sole purpose is to shoot things (in this country, it's usually game).

I'm ignoring nothing.

I'm paraphrasing here but you said that all guns have one purpose, violence or practicing for violence. I don't agree with you. Yes, most guns are designed for violence, either hunting or self defence. But not all guns are designed for those purposes, that's the point I am making.

This gun is solely designed for target shooting, not violence or practicing for violence. It's sporting equipment, not a killing machine.

AnneFrank

ah blame the oul mental illness, when millions of people deal with minor issues without any problem,
no wonder there is such a stigma around depression ect,
it doesn't have to be pigeon holed, perhaps he didn't like country music

Danzy

Pelvis wrote: »

He's white, he's mentally ill.

If he was brown, Islam!

If he was an Islamist then he would be labelled an Islamic terrorist.

Ironically enough, saying a shooter had mental health issues leads most people to presume that the person shooting was actually motivated by Islamism, It has become such a common deflection.

Zubeneschamali

Wanderer78 wrote: »

hard to say, only professionals could truly answer that, but it does seem like to my untrained professional eye, he had a major psychotic episode

Nope - he planned this carefully, getting and bringing 10+ long arms to a hotel room and waiting 4 days for the opportunity, and he killed himself before being captured.

Nothing remotely like a psychotic break.

Danzy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

hard to say, only professionals could truly answer that, but it does seem like to my untrained professional eye, he had a major psychotic episode

A psychotic episode that went on for a very long time, that took a lot of planning and self discipline.

Mental it may well have been but he was able to act rationally and plan it.

Wanderer78

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Nope - he planned this carefully, getting and bringing 10+ long arms to a hotel room and waiting 4 days for the opportunity, and he killed himself before being captured.

Nothing remotely like a psychotic break.

how can you be so sure? i know people that have had psychotic episodes, it doesnt sound like its an immediate thing

irishrover99

I can't believe i'm going to say this but i actually for once agree with Piers Morgan.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4942278/PIERS-MORGAN-Vegas-Muslim-terror-d-new-laws.html

homerjay2005

Pelvis wrote: »

He's white, he's mentally ill.

If he was brown, Islam!

you will see most people refer to terrorists as mentally ill no matter what colour they are.

anybody willing to kill innocent people, in large numbers is mentally disturbed, in a very serious way.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Hmm, at the start of this thread, I posted that in one of the videos, it sounded like two guns at the same.

I just read that it was because of the bullets from the gun used cause sonic booms. Any truth to that?

If a bullet is still supersonic when it passes over your head you hear a crack sound, which indeed is the sonic boom. The shooter was quite a ways away, I don't know if the bullets were still supersonic when they reached the crowd.

There's a lot of tall buildings around so the sound you heard could be echoes. Also your typical phone mic is not designed for capturing very loud sounds, it will tend to clip and distort.

It's been suggested he used a trigger crank at least some of the time, which is an add-on device that you crank like an old-timey camera to fire rapidly. It has a distinctive cadence.

BattleCorp

Deleted User wrote: »

It's been suggested he used a trigger crank at least some of the time, which is an add-on device that you crank like an old-timey camera to fire rapidly. It has a distinctive cadence.

You might hear the noise from a trigger crank if you were in the hotel room with the shooter but there's no way you'd hear it from 300 yards away.

Pelvis

homerjay2005 wrote: »

you will see most people refer to terrorists as mentally ill no matter what colour they are.

Can't say I recall ever reading that on other threads about them there Islams.

Zubeneschamali

homerjay2005 wrote: »

anybody willing to kill innocent people, in large numbers is mentally disturbed, in a very serious way.

"Mentally ill" covers a list of illnesses like schizophrenia, bipolar, depression, psychosis - none of which cause people to carefully plan and carry out massacres.

"Mentally disturbed" does not actually mean anything.

Outlaw Pete

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

He wasn't evil. He was mentally ill, supposedly had gambling debts, and had lots of guns at his disposal. That's two, maybe three things , right there that are actionable.

Maybe he should have sold his guns and paid his fcuking gambling debts then, or at least made a dent in them.

Dyr

Just out of curiosity lads, how is the prohibition of narcotics working out in America?

I'm sure banning guns will be every bit as sucessful

inforfun

irishrover99 wrote: »

I can't believe i'm going to say this but i actually for once agree with Piers Morgan.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4942278/PIERS-MORGAN-Vegas-Muslim-terror-d-new-laws.html

So... which new laws were brought in immediately after the Orlando night club shooting by Omar Mateen, Mr Morgan?

MojoRisinnnn

Bambi wrote: »

Just out of curiosity lads, how is the prohibition of narcotics working out in America?

I'm sure banning guns will be every bit as sucessful

I don't think it would be nearly as difficult as is being made out.

BattleCorp

BattleCorp wrote: »

You might hear the noise from a trigger crank if you were in the hotel room with the shooter but there's no way you'd hear it from 300 yards away.

Im not suggesting anybody could hear the noise of a trigger crank itself from the street. That's absurd.

I said it has a distinctive irregular cadence (rhythm) which sounds quite a bit different to regular full auto. Combined with echoes and mic clipping etc it could explain why some think there were multiple shooters. In any case haven't actually heard the video he referred to.

irishrover99

irishrover99 wrote: »

I can't believe i'm going to say this but i actually for once agree with Piers Morgan.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4942278/PIERS-MORGAN-Vegas-Muslim-terror-d-new-laws.html

Didn't bother reading past the headline because it's so obviously wrong. One word: Pulse.

Samaris

If Sandy Hook didn't bring about new laws, I don't see anything doing it.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Didn't bother reading past the headline because it's so obviously wrong. One word: Pulse.

Well it's not wrong , nothing will happen. The fact is the US is " comfortable " with the risk and outcomes of these mass shootings . That's the simple answer, there is no groundswell of support for any change , if it didn't happen after sandy hook, you could probably kill the whole of the state of Nevada and nothing would likely change

Damn, the politics is just too much.

Finally ended a 5+ year friendship with a guy after I sent him this story and called the woman a ****. He said I was only offended by what she said because I'm a straight white male. Then he called me a sexist racist.
I don't even know how the massacre and straight white male really correlate.

“If they wouldn’t do anything when children were murdered I have no hope that Repugs will ever do the right thing. I’m actually not even sympathetic bc country music fans often are Republican gun toters."


He's called me that before for supporting Sanders in the Primary and he's whipped it out again today. The worst thing is I know he agrees with her.. He said people merely believing in Pizzagate or the Sandyhook conspiracies were far more offensive than what that woman, a now ex-VP of CBS, said. (I don't believe in those btw)