Vegas shooting incident

Omackeral

Ok my point was simply that it's a hard sell to me to say that "all Americans are xyz" because a bloke in Connecticut is gonna be a totally different guy than a fella in San Francisco. Polar opposite views potentially. There's no single American way of thinking is what I'm getting at, despite what some people say.

MadYaker

Omackeral wrote: »

Well there is 320 odd million of them! That's something I can never get my head around. People say "all Americans are X" but it's a fcuking massive country! It's got multiple time zones and continents and climates and peoples. Alaska is nothing like Hawaii. Kentucky is nothing like Maine. The USA is a massively diverse country and when people say all Americans are ______ it makes me really wonder if they even know what they're saying.

I'm not trying to paint them all with the same brush. The point BoatMad is making is that by not demanding change from the top and by fighting for their right to bare arms even though the proliferation of weapons among a huge civilian population has devastating consquences, all Americans are partially to blame for these shootings. Although they don't phrase it like that, the conclusion he's coming too is that their 2nd amendment rights come with a cost, and it's a cost that they are prepared to pay. I can see the logic in it, but I'm not sure it's as simple as that.

Edit:

BoatMad wrote: »

Americans don't have blood on their hands , that statement suggest a collective perception of the issues around gun freedoms and such atrocities. If the US had a public outcry and nothing happened one could advance that view

The fact is Americans simply don't care enough to change anything

This is a good clarification.

BoatMad

Omackeral wrote: »

Ok my point was simply that it's a hard sell to me to say that "all Americans are xyz" because a bloke in Connecticut is gonna be a totally different guy than a fella in San Francisco. Polar opposite views potentially. There's no single American way of thinking is what I'm getting at, despite what some people say.

The US comes together at state and presidential elections to register simple viewpoints , ie who should be president

Where it of sufficient national interest, then gun control would have a political platform and a will to change things.

Nothing of the sort is evident. Diversity arguments are pure deflection, people everywhere can see shooting 60 people with military style wesponery is obviously wrong

The fact that they do not think that gun control is therefore to be considered leads one to a simple conclusion. You can't reach any other conclusion

Permabear

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BoatMad

MadYaker wrote: »

I'm not trying to paint them all with the same brush. The point BoatMad is making is that by not demanding change from the top and by fighting for their right to bare arms even though the proliferation of weapons among a huge civilian population has devastating consquences, all Americans are partially to blame for these shootings. Although they don't phrase it like that, the conclusion he's coming too is that their 2nd amendment rights come with a cost, and it's a cost that they are prepared to pay. I can see the logic in it, but I'm not sure it's as simple as that

Americans cannot argue both sides of the coin , even if some try.

You either have a national concern that results in gun control in an attempt to limit access to extremely lethal weaponery

Or you support and vote for many political figures right up to the president , that will not touch gun control and in fact favour liberalisation

You can't have it both ways. The conclusion is obvious. Not enough Americans see the issue or care about it to make any difference.

Omackeral

Permabear wrote: »

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I was thinking along the lines of somewhere like Greenwich CT with its WASPy upper class vs the more liberal San Fran. But anyway that's semantics and not a perfect example, but I'm glad ya see the basic point I was going for.

nacho libre

Is it really true a kinder surprise egg is banned in Nevada. I'm referring to the interview Piers Morgan did with a pro gun advocate this morning. Sorry if this point has been addressed already.

BoatMad

Permabear wrote: »

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The size of the country, with modern communications , is largely irelevant
Ireland is just as diverse when it comes to contentious issues

The issue is simply this , if enough people cared, change would occur. The fact that if anything , gun liberalisation has occurred in recent years can only lead you to a conclusion that most don't care , ie don't see such atrocities as justifying limits on guns.

The opposite occurs , rather like the Irish water issue, once enough people " care" in a democracy , political change occurs.

Personally I think , the shooter could have wiped out the entire state of Nevada and little would change in the US.

MadYaker

nacho libre wrote: »

Is it really true a kinder surprise egg is banned in Nevada. I'm referring to the interview Piers Morgan did with a pro gun advocate this morning. Sorry if this point has been addressed already.

Yes that is true. They decided the toys were too dangerous for kids, choking hazard. I thought it was a nationwide ban though? Guess not.

BoatMad

nacho libre wrote: »

Is it really true a kinder surprise egg is banned in Nevada. I'm referring to the interview Piers Morgan did with a pro gun advocate this morning. Sorry if this point has been addressed already.

Remember this is a country where you are prohibited from buying a drink, but can quite happily purchase an AR 16

BoatMad

To come at it with some simpler comparison logic :-

(A) in many countries with stricter gun laws , such incidents rarely if ever occur

Conclusion

Stricter gun laws work
Or
The US has a far higher proportion of crazed killers

Either conclusion should serously worry Americans

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

BoatMad

Oh, almost everyone cares, in that it's an issue that few feel apathetic about. But enough states are clearly for gun rights that any attempt at repealing the Second Amendment would almost certainly be doomed to failure -- a constitutional change in the United States is extremely difficult to enact, unlike in Ireland where a simple majority vote in a referendum suffices.

As I said , not enough care , you cannot reach any other conclusion , its self evident that your opening statement " almost everyone cares " is abject nonsense , if that was the case then change would occur

As I said , either strict gun laws work or the US produces proportionally more crazed killers then any where else

Either conclusion should worry Americans

nacho libre

MadYaker wrote: »

Yes that is true. They decided the toys were too dangerous for kids, choking hazard. I thought it was a nationwide ban though? Guess not.

You are right it is nationwide ban. I think Boatmad is right, there aren't a higher proportion of crazed killers in America compared to other places, it's just that, unlike here and other countries, deranged people don't have easy access to firearms, or believe it's their constitutional right to bear arms.

Permabear

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MadYaker

Making the constitution so hard to change seems slightly short sighted.

Permabear

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Permabear

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BoatMad

Permabear wrote: »

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Please don't take us for idiots, we understand exactly situation the 2nd amendment places the US in.

The fact remains that even within the strictures of the 2nd amendment, its possible to enact gun control legislation , equally the Scalia judgement is not inviolate.

The fact remains that both political parties see gun control as a loser , this reflects the political will at large amongst their support base

Enough People simply don't believe attrocities justify action, they simply don't care or they value gun freedoms over such atrocities.

Sandy hook is clearly the defining point in this debate , a nation that refuses to enact gun control in the face of the killing of 20 children, demonstrates directly that not enough actually care , you just can't reach any other conclusion

BoatMad

Permabear wrote: »

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Sadly their wisdom over populism , didn't extend to the president

MadYaker

Permabear wrote: »

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And now they have a populist president who has disenfranchised the majority of the nation. They'll be doing well if he doesn't start another war.

Their system is broken, very broken. It doesn't serve the people anymore.

BoatMad

Permabear wrote: »

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Sorry , either strict gun control laws work or America produces proportionally more crazed killers then anywhere else

If you except the former conclusion, then you accept that the US public is prepared to " accept " , regular atrocities in order to retain gun freedom.

If you prefer the latter , you have a very and possibly more serious issue in American society.

This has nothing to do with European style gun control, we have nations with relatively lacks gun laws , e.g. Czech Republic , but funnily they don't seem to have people shooting mass crowds from hotel windows !

Like I said either conclusion is profoundly worrying for US society

Note personally , in the US it's not gun control , it's gun culture that needs to be tackled. That's the difference between Europe and the US , plenty of places in Europe , where you can get hold of lethal weaponery , Norway demonstrates that , in fact in Ireland , you could create carnage at a concert with a legally held pump,action shotgun , funnily it doesn't happen

Outlaw Pete

Very interesting footage this from a cabbie in real time from first hearing the shots while waiting in the taxi rank of the hotel to leaving and then being hailed by some people running away from the concert.

Lends support also perhaps to the theory of two shooters given that some shots sound really close and then some much further away, but I guess that could just be an echo effect with sound bouncing off buildings and what not.

Anyway, worth watching if for no reason than to see just how seemingly some people initially were even with gunfire going off not too far away..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5wtLXiqwHQ

BillyBobBS

The fact there is supposedly no digital footprint whatsoever on this guy is very unusual in itself.

pilly

BillyBobBS wrote:

The fact there is supposedly no digital footprint whatsoever on this guy is very unusual in itself.

Not when he's 64 in fairness.

Stonedpilot

BillyBobBS wrote: »

The fact there is supposedly no digital footprint whatsoever on this guy is very unusual in itself.

No its not, quite common for shooting actually. Adam Lanza had no digital footprint either, just ONE crappy photograph ever of him released (one with the blue background looking snuffed up).

Them tin foil hat wearers might say
Easy to fabricate their story when they havent got one.

Samaris

The weirdness of someone taking and uploading a video of a mass shooting with the title "OMG Video LV M@SS $HOOTING" indicates that I will never understand some peoples' minds.

Regarding the second amendment, it's all a bit hypocritical anyway since they seem to blatantly ignore half the sentence.

Nekarsulm

MadYaker wrote: »

Yes that is true. They decided the toys were too dangerous for kids, choking hazard. I thought it was a nationwide ban though? Guess not.

Kinder Surprise eggs cannot be sold in the US because of a line of legislation which states that a food item cannot be sold if it contains another non food item.
I suppose they were thinking about fruit cake or plum pudding with rings or coins etc in the mixture, but Kinder eggs were caught up in the broad strokes of the legislation.

BattleCorp

Nekarsulm wrote: »

Kinder Surprise eggs cannot be sold in the US because of a line of legislation which states that a food item cannot be sold if it contains another non food item.
I suppose they were thinking about fruit cake or plum pudding with rings or coins etc in the mixture, but Kinder eggs were caught up in the broad strokes of the legislation.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Makes sense when you think about it.

BillyBobBS

pilly wrote: »

Not when he's 64 in fairness.

And?

Richard Hillman

BoatMad wrote: »

To come at it with some simpler comparison logic :-

(A) in many countries with stricter gun laws , such incidents rarely if ever occur

Conclusion

Stricter gun laws work
Or
The US has a far higher proportion of crazed killers

Either conclusion should serously worry Americans

It's a copy cat effect. Depressed males see a huge reaction and attention to these types of murders

NIMAN

The next guy will now be planning to kill 60, to do it better.

Billy86

Omackeral wrote: »

If you wanna see true mental ravings check out this thread in the Conspiracy Forum. It was a False Flag, wake up Sheeple.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057793648/1

Surely that's a new record for cards to posts ratio in a thread!?

Ugh, constitution worshipping bull**** has come along again.

gimli2112

Billy86 wrote: »

Surely that's a new record for cards to posts ratio in a thread!?

I read the first 2 or 3 pages of that thread yesterday and promised myself never to venture into the Conspiracies Forum again.

Omackeral

Billy86 wrote: »

Surely that's a new record for cards to posts ratio in a thread!?

Jesus it's like the Old Firm or an Istanbul Derby with the amount of reds and yellows.

Penn

Just read that the Gun Silencer Bill that was supposed to be voted on (but has now been pushed back) also included loosening regulations for sale of armour piercing bullets.

Y'know, because gun enthusiasts who obviously only have guns for hunting wildlife and vermin are just being plagued over the last few years with deer taunting them by wandering around in bulletproof vests.

Shurimgreat

There is literally an arms race going on among Americans.

I buy a handgun for protection, my neighbour feels they need at least one hand gun and something bigger to protect themselves. My neighbour has a bigger weapon, well I better get something just as big or bigger.

The more weapons there are in society, the more people feel they need to buy them for protection. Its a race to see who can have the most weapons.

If those who wrote the Constitution saw what the Second Amendment has led to, they would be the first to call for it to be changed to something like a right to only carry handguns.

Shurimgreat

Additionally any gun makers who benefit from the rise in share price or an increase in demand in the wake of massacres like this have blood on their hands. They are benefitting from these massacres.

seamus

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Additionally any gun makers who benefit from the rise in share price or an increase in demand in the wake of massacres like this have blood on their hands. They are benefitting from these massacres.

Arms manufacturers are like tobacco companies. They have no morals, they don't care about anything except sales. I'm sure they comfort themselves with platitudes like, "We just sell guns, we don't fire them".

murpho999

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Additionally any gun makers who benefit from the rise in share price or an increase in demand in the wake of massacres like this have blood on their hands. They are benefitting from these massacres.

I don't support gun use but your logic is flawed.

It's like saying car manufacturers are guilty when people are killed in car crashes.

Shurimgreat

murpho999 wrote: »

I don't support gun use but your logic is flawed.

It's like saying car manufacturers are guilty when people are killed in car crashes.

Actually its your logic that's flawed.

Car manufacturers make an effort to make cars safer.

There is nothing about guns that are safe. Gun manufacturers make guns more and more powerful and deadly and lobby law makers to increasingly loosen laws around the sale of guns. Their job is to sell as many guns to as many people as possible and massacres like this are I'm sure music to the ears of some gun makers. Profits will be up, bonuses will be up, happy days I'm sure for some gunmakers, benefitting from the continued blood letting across America.

Eponymous

murpho999 wrote: »

I don't support gun use but your logic is flawed.

It's like saying car manufacturers are guilty when people are killed in car crashes.

No. It's nothing like that.

murpho999

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Actually its your logic that's flawed.

Car manufacturers make an effort to make cars safer.

There is nothing about guns that are safe. Gun manufacturers make guns more and more powerful and deadly and lobby law makers to increasingly loosen laws around the sale of guns. Their job is to sell as many guns to as many people as possible and massacres like this are I'm sure music to the ears of some gun makers. Profits will be up, bonuses will be up, happy days I'm sure for some gunmakers, benefitting from the continued blood letting across America.

Eponymous wrote: »

No. It's nothing like that.

It's lawmakers and customers who have made the share price go up as they permit people to buy more guns.

wes

murpho999 wrote: »

It's like saying car manufacturers are guilty when people are killed in car crashes.

If they lobby for the removal of safety features, they are.

Shurimgreat

Gunmakers ultimately benefit financially.
The more shootings and mass shootings, the more people buy guns, either feeling they have to protect themselves or fearing a tightening of the law.
If any industry benefits from blood letting, its gun makers.
America is a mad, crazy, broken country.

Outlaw Pete

Samaris wrote: »

The weirdness of someone taking and uploading a video of a mass shooting with the title "OMG Video LV M@SS $HOOTING" indicates that I will never understand some peoples' minds.

Like so many videos on YT that go viral it was most likely ripped from it's original source and then had it's title changed to one which would likely draw more clicks.

gctest50

I don't see why people here are howling about banning guns

Someone would kill a lot more with diesel, fertilizer and a tractor & trailer :

that'd cause huge destruction :

so what next ? ban tractors, trailers & diesel ?

Billy86

If only there were some other, primarily intended use for diesel, or fertiliser, or tractors. If only...

bucketybuck

Omackeral wrote: »

If you wanna see true mental ravings check out this thread in the Conspiracy Forum. It was a False Flag, wake up Sheeple.

http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057793648/1

59 people are still in bodybags and moderators on Boards.ie are starting threads to discuss how what happened didn't actually happen. Its sick.