Teacher shortages in Irish

gaeilgemad

Hello all,
Through the call a few months back for Junior and Leaving Cert examiners, I found out that Irish was one of the subjects the department had the most trouble finding examiners for. 
Is there a shortage of for teachers of Irish as well at second level?

mirrorwall14

Judging by our school in the greater Dublin region, yes there's a massive shortage

spurious

There is always a shortage of good Irish teachers.

mirrorwall14

spurious wrote: »

There is always a shortage of good Irish teachers.

I think the difference this year for us was there was actually a shortage of any Irish teachers, good or bad

gaeilgemad

Is the department doing anything about it that you know of? Just any extra initiatives to recruit trainees, or even calls for more people to consider it? I considered it in the past but my undergraduate degree was in another subject area and when I called the department to ask about options, I was told that even if I were to do a masters in Irish it would not necessarily qualify me to teach Irish unless the masters had a core focus on Irish literature. 
It just seems to me that this could escalate if they don't act now to recruit enough people, especially when they want to expand on the number of Irish language secondary schools. How are they going to find enough people with fluency in Irish, and who can teach other subjects?

mirrorwall14

gaeilgemad wrote: »

Is the department doing anything about it that you know of? Just any extra initiatives to recruit trainees, or even calls for more people to consider it? I considered it in the past but my undergraduate degree was in another subject area and when I called the department to ask about options, I was told that even if I were to do a masters in Irish it would not necessarily qualify me to teach Irish unless the masters had a core focus on Irish literature. 
It just seems to me that this could escalate if they don't act now to recruit enough people, especially when they want to expand on the number of Irish language secondary schools. How are they going to find enough people with fluency in Irish, and who can teach other subjects?

No plans that I know of. Its completely nuts tbh.

At the very least we need to start offering training for teachers willing to teach their subjects in gaelscoils/sruth scenarios

Exiled1

The Dept does nothing to plan for foreseeable shortages/surplusses of teachers. Any College can set up and run degree courses provided they can justify filling them. We are over producing teachers in most subjects in huge numbers. The sheer numbers of PE, Metal, Wood, Business, RE and General subject teachers graduating each year would keep a population of double our size over supplied.
On the contrary Home Ec and Irish are scarce.
Most students who are good at Irish and wish to teach seem to opt for Primary. Those who graduate with Irish naturally prefer to work in areas where teaching Irish is less of a chore, ie. West and South West.
As for standards...don't get me started.

ethical

I know of a teacher who did not have Gaeilge as her degree subject but was fluent in Irish,was from the Gaeltacht,taught Gaeilge for around 15 years, always had great exam results teaching in a non Gaeltacht school.The Teaching Council would not recognise the subject either.Experience counted for NOTHING! Anyways didnt the Principal change and lo and behold the "Irish" teacher was relieved of her duties of teaching Irish and had to revert to other subjects.This country does not have a feckin clue when it comes to "cop on". No one listens to the teachers at the coal face ,the ones that actually know what is going on at ground level.Unions are feck all good either when it comes to fighting for teachers rights,theyd rather pocket the money (subs) and put everything through a paper trail called Grievance Procedure which ends up as a delaying tactic.We need to get rid of an awful lot of Crap in the management of the teaching profession.Have a root and branch re structure,get rid of the "retired" who are still sucking the system dry in the form of Selection Committee fees,the scratch my back and I'll scratch yours feckers who dont give a damn for anyone other than their own bank accounts.Are they still getting the money via Argos Vouchers?,or is it cash now! An enquiry now would "retire" once and for all the likes of (I would love to name the few I know but would rather the authorities deal with them!)................ who are syphoning funds that would be better used to fund other much needier areas of education.

fall

There's a massive crisis on the way for many subjects and it is the source of major discussion at the managerial body meetings.
Exiled I can assure you that there are now critical shortages in many subjects including woodwork, modern foreign languages and maths and science are also thin on the ground. Irish and home economics are just the tip of the iceberg. There are any amount of history, geography and business teachers. Many teachers are heading to countries like Dubai.
School management have been very vocal about this but it is only now the department, the teaching council and third level institutions have started to work together to address the issue which I suspect will take years to rectify.

evolving_doors

ethical wrote: »

I know of a teacher who did not have Gaeilge as her degree subject but was fluent in Irish,was from the Gaeltacht,taught Gaeilge for around 15 years, always had great exam results teaching in a non Gaeltacht school.The Teaching Council would not recognise the subject either.Experience counted for NOTHING! Anyways didnt the Principal change and lo and behold the "Irish" teacher was relieved of her duties of teaching Irish and had to revert to other subjects.This country does not have a feckin clue when it comes to "cop on". No one listens to the teachers at the coal face ,the ones that actually know what is going on at ground level.Unions are feck all good either when it comes to fighting for teachers rights,theyd rather pocket the money (subs) and put everything through a paper trail called Grievance Procedure which ends up as a delaying tactic.We need to get rid of an awful lot of Crap in the management of the teaching profession.Have a root and branch re structure,get rid of the "retired" who are still sucking the system dry in the form of Selection Committee fees,the scratch my back and I'll scratch yours feckers who dont give a damn for anyone other than their own bank accounts.Are they still getting the money via Argos Vouchers?,or is it cash now! An enquiry now would "retire" once and for all the likes of (I would love to name the few I know but would rather the authorities deal with them!)................ who are syphoning funds that would be better used to fund other much needier areas of education.

Eh! They had 15 years to get qualified. If anything they had it sweet and should have seen it coming. Although it would have been polite to give a warning at least.

Someone who might have been awaiting a CID (qualified in Irish) could have been refused, and then appeal on the grounds that their hours were being used by someone else unqualified, it's an open and shut case. You just can't give someone unqualified precedence over someone who is. Not saying that that is what happened but some principals are just keen for all their staff to be qualified, some are not.

evolving_doors

For some light reading http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/en/Publications/Teacher-Education/Teacher-Supply-in-Ireland.pdf

For secondary it's encouraging that they are urging a review of the over-dependance on part time contracts to fill gaps in subjects.

Another interesting assertion (on pg. 29) is the restriction of STEM subjects onto teacher training courses.

Any shortage of STEM graduates on consecutive ITE programmes does not therefore arise because of a shortage of applicants – it arises because the STEM applicants do not score sufficiently highly on a list that ranks all candidates using the same points system, regardless of their academic subject. Since the two-year PME was introduced in 2014, with a significant reduction in the overall annual intake of students, it is even more difficult for STEM graduates to compete with arts graduates. In one NUI university, which accepted a total of over 120 PME students in 2014 and in 2015, only five of these were STEM graduates (compared to an annual average of over 30 in the previous decade). In 2015, there were 19 disappointed STEM applicants for the PME, i.e., they did not score sufficiently on the points system, indicating that the shortage of STEM graduates on the current PME in that university was not the result of a shortage of applicants.

Edit: Although that's for the NUI. I don't think all restrict on the basis of filing quotas (i.e. hibernia).

mtoutlemonde

fall wrote: »

There's a massive crisis on the way for many subjects and it is the source of major discussion at the managerial body meetings.
Exiled I can assure you that there are now critical shortages in many subjects including woodwork, modern foreign languages and maths and science are also thin on the ground. Irish and home economics are just the tip of the iceberg. There are any amount of history, geography and business teachers. Many teachers are heading to countries like Dubai.
School management have been very vocal about this but it is only now the department, the teaching council and third level institutions have started to work together to address the issue which I suspect will take years to rectify.

And in a recent PDST workshop - with the new languages framework, they want students to study more languages such as Chinese and Japanese. They also want more Polish teachers and move students away from French to Spanish.

With relation to Irish, I enquired about the diploma in Irish a few years ago, not to teach it but because it is our language so doing it as a hobby - that hobby was going to cost me €1000 per year. It's an expensive hobby where I could put that money to better use with a learning support/management course. Also, I think the syllabus needs a complete shake up - make it like other languages - get rid of the poetry/literature etc. and include them in comprehensions. Make the content more teenager friendly. There are loads of Irish resources online that are cool and material produced by Colaiste Lurgan but students still have to sit an out-dated exam. If it were more enjoyable there would be more interest. Parents who also hated Irish develop hate in their children.

With relation to subs - I can't understand why but they are thin on the ground as well.

evolving_doors

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

And in a recent PDST workshop - with the new languages framework, they want students to study more languages such as Chinese and Japanese. They also want more Polish teachers and move students away from French to Spanish.

With relation to Irish, I enquired about the diploma in Irish a few years ago, not to teach it but because it is our language so doing it as a hobby - that hobby was going to cost me €1000 per year. It's an expensive hobby where I could put that money to better use with a learning support/management course. Also, I think the syllabus needs a complete shake up - make it like other languages - get rid of the poetry/literature etc. and include them in comprehensions. Make the content more teenager friendly. There are loads of Irish resources online that are cool and material produced by Colaiste Lurgan but students still have to sit an out-dated exam. If it were more enjoyable there would be more interest. Parents who also hated Irish develop hate in their children.

With relation to subs - I can't understand why but they are thin on the ground as well.

I recall hearing on a radio interview that it has to do with some European directive. If it's your native language there has to be a poetry/literature content from that particular country. Same reason as why teachers have to do extra modules if they want to teach English in Ireland. Im happy to stand corrected on that.

mtoutlemonde

evolving_doors wrote: »

I recall hearing on a radio interview that it has to do with some European directive. If it's your native language there has to be a poetry/literature content from that particular country. Same reason as why teachers have to do extra modules if they want to teach English in Ireland. Im happy to stand corrected on that.

But it was removed from the foreign languages a long time ago. Maybe because it's a native language - you could be correct - I'm sure someone will set us straight Also if that was the case, the SEC should look at how to examine it - maybe writing pages and pages on themes etc.

I still hear people being tormented by Peig I read it in English a few years back and enjoyed it.

TheDriver

Every subject is impossble to get someone good at the moment (except art and music and woodwork). Even english teachers are thin on the ground never mind Gaeilge, maths, home ec. The standard of interviewees is getting quite poor this year in latter stages of the summer.

Exiled1

TheDriver wrote: »

Every subject is impossble to get someone good at the moment (except art and music and woodwork). Even english teachers are thin on the ground never mind Gaeilge, maths, home ec. The standard of interviewees is getting quite poor this year in latter stages of the summer.

When grads do not get a job by 1 Sept they move abroad very quickly. The other phenomenon of career break in the Middle East etc. (to gather funds for a house deposit) is causing problems too.
The three you mention, art, music, ww, are grossly oversubscribed and I have the greatest sympathy for excellent young candidates in these disciplines who have to battle for years to get a job. Once upon a time, woodwork teachers disappeared into the construction industry when there were surpluses, but now they cannot do that. They are prepared for teaching only.
In the early days of the boom, it was impossible to get science teachers because grads went into industry but then found they were doing little science and much production management.
The shortage of muinteoiri gaeilge will increase the volume on the 'Irish optional' debate. That would be a disastrous scenario.

mirrorwall14

Snapgal wrote: »

This really annoys me when people say that there is a shortage of Irish teachers. I am based in the west. Have a BA International plus HDip through the medium of Irish. Was permanent for over 12 years in the east teaching Irish plus two other foreign languages. Moved east as could not find teaching job near home. Was looking to get home for personal reasons so started to look for jobs again as could not redeploy. Got one year RPT position with over 1hour commute from my county but didn't get back to school after year due to redeployment. Then got a one year contract in a school near me but again did not get back so am now on job share contract ( not own hours) again in school in a county beside me with over one hour commute. Found it extremely hard to find any RPT position in my home area. I have acted an an oral examiner for over 10 years, corrected both leaving cert plus junior cert exam papers plus have been involved in extra curricular activities in all my subjects and outside the classroom. It really does annoy me when people say "oh you have Irish plus a wealth of experience, sure you will have no bother gettting a job back home". In my experience it's all who you are and who you know.

And it equally annoys me when people say it’s all who you are and who you know. I got my jobs on my own merit, and didn’t know anyone except for one place and I don’t think they had anything to do it as it wasn’t someone in the school just someone they knew.

I have every sympathy for you but there is a shortage of Irish teachers, just not in the area you want one. Just because the shortage isn’t where you want it to be doesn’t mean there isn’t a shortage

Snapgal

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

And it equally annoys me when people say it’s all who you are and who you know. I got my jobs on my own merit, and didn’t know anyone except for one place and I don’t think they had anything to do it as it wasn’t someone in the school just someone they knew.

I have every sympathy for you but there is a shortage of Irish teachers, just not in the area you want one. Just because the shortage isn’t where you want it to be doesn’t mean there isn’t a shortage

Well done and well deserved on getting your job on merit. I was only expressing my opinion and let people know before they decide to add on irish as another subject the reality it is in some areas. I can see this subject become oversubscribed in few years and again too many teachers qualified in the subject. I spent over five years studying 3 languages in college which was difficult but I worked really hard to earn my 1.1 honours. I know of many CID teachers teaching irish to honours leaving cert in my area who don't even have Irish in their degree. Why I have to pay money to the teaching council I just don't know.

mirrorwall14

Snapgal wrote: »

Well done and well deserved on getting your job on merit. I was only expressing my opinion and let people know before they decide to add on irish as another subject the reality it is in some areas. I can see this subject become oversubscribed in few years and again too many teachers qualified in the subject. I spent over five years studying 3 languages in college which was difficult but I worked really hard to earn my 1.1 honours. I know of many CID teachers teaching irish to honours leaving cert in my area who don't even have Irish in their degree. Why I have to pay money to the teaching council I just don't know.

Sorry if I seem narky, it’s just the constant refrain of ‘who you know’ drives me a little crackers

Postgrad10

I'd say a lot of subs are eager to sub but realistically have the dread of waiting months for pay so don't want to come off social welfare payments , especially if they don't have family to rely on for loans etc. No wonder they go abroad for free accomodation , medical insurance and tax free pay. Who can blame them?

gaeilgemad

Is there any way we can get or call for reports directly from schools/school principals about the shortages that exist in certain subjects, or that are likely to surface in the next few years?  
Are there ever any calls for this kind of information from the unions or how does the Department itself come up with their conclusions about teacher numbers and availability of qualified teachers?

evolving_doors

gaeilgemad wrote: »

Is there any way we can get or call for reports directly from schools/school principals about the shortages that exist in certain subjects, or that are likely to surface in the next few years?  
Are there ever any calls for this kind of information from the unions or how does the Department itself come up with their conclusions about teacher numbers and availability of qualified teachers?

Department were never really concerned with teacher numbers.

Part time teachers,
predominance of 2 subjects
Unqualified teachers fulfilling 'needs of the school.
School ability to alter timetable somewhat.

Chickens are coming home to roost now though. Student Population is set to rise year on year til 2025!!
More Newly qualified teachers not as prepaid to plug the gap anymore and try abroad first.
I was thinking was the reduction in JC subject hours and increase in mindlessness a way of staving off the shortage a bit.

mtoutlemonde

evolving_doors wrote: »

Department were never really concerned with teacher numbers.

Part time teachers,
predominance of 2 subjects
Unqualified teachers fulfilling 'needs of the school.
School ability to alter timetable somewhat.

Chickens are coming home to roost now though. Student Population is set to rise year on year til 2025!!
More Newly qualified teachers not as prepaid to plug the gap anymore and try abroad first.
I was thinking was the reduction in JC subject hours and increase in mindlessness a way of staving off the shortage a bit.

Have me smiling again.

I'd say not because the teacher who used to teach CSPE is now teaching mindlessness to first years.

In a few years, Ireland will be just like England - lots of paperwork, bad pay (which is already happening with our LPTs) which will result in huge shortages of teachers.

PowerToWait

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

And in a recent PDST workshop - with the new languages framework, they want students to study more languages such as Chinese and Japanese. They also want more Polish teachers and move students away from French to Spanish.

Realistically what're the chances of having qualified teachers for Japanese or Chinese? And I can only imagine the difficulty of the task facing anyone trying to teach those languages, or indeed Polish, to any meaningful level in a lot of Irish schools.

Why the push to Spanish? No love for French? Is it 'me holidays in Spayin'?

mtoutlemonde

PowerToWait wrote: »

Realistically what're the chances of having qualified teachers for Japanese or Chinese? And I can only imagine the difficulty of the task facing anyone trying to teach those languages, or indeed Polish, to any meaningful level in a lot of Irish schools.

Why the push to Spanish? No love for French? Is it 'me holidays in Spayin'?

I know, I wasn't actually at the workshop but received the slides. If I had been there, I would have asked that question. I know my local education centre offers free diplomas in Chinese teaching - I don't know how much you will learn in ten classes. I definitely wouldn't be happy to teach it even to TYs.

I would love to know why there is a push for Spanish. In my last school, French was like the poor relation. It is only causing competition between subjects. I would like to see the day when students could study two languages for Leaving Cert. and it is possible - there are students who would be capable of doing it.
From I've seen of the exam paper, Spanish is more difficult than French at Leaving Cert, not sure about Junior Cert.

PowerToWait

I've never seen a Spanish LC paper, though I do have an interest in French and am familiar with the paper at HL, so I'm surprised to hear that. The reading comps can be very difficult, with the French penchant for verbosity compounding the students' chagrin.

The abstract nature of the writing can often seem quite difficult for less creative students.

In short, it can sometimes appear rock hard.

gaeilgemad

Colm O Rourke has a piece in Tuairisc.ie about this today - made the point that there are no Irish language teachers to be found and made same point as made here - they might use this lack of teachers in the future to make Irish an optional subject.

Future looks bleak with the people who are in charge in Dept Ed.

Romantic Rose

From what I'm hearing on the ground there is a shortage of primary teachers all around. I know teachers that were driven out of Dublin by high rents but then weren't ready to move home permanently yet so went abroad. In my locality there are so many maternity leaves. I know of 4 in one small school at the same time and they're still struggling to fill 2 of them.

They say these things come in cycles. When I graduated from college, there was a slight shortage of teachers. 5 years later, there was a saturation of teachers. Now there seems to be a slight shortage again.

Hopefully they will sort out the Gaeilge teachers though. Although at primary level, I do be shocked at how poor their grasp of Gaeilge is but then English is much the same!

2011abc

Romantic Rose wrote: »

Hopefully they will sort out the Gaeilge teachers though. Although at primary level, I do be shocked at how poor their grasp of Gaeilge is but then English is much the same!

Hmmmm.....

gaeilgemad

Romantic Rose wrote: »

From what I'm hearing on the ground there is a shortage of primary teachers all around. I know teachers that were driven out of Dublin by high rents but then weren't ready to move home permanently yet so went abroad. In my locality there are so many maternity leaves. I know of 4 in one small school at the same time and they're still struggling to fill 2 of them.

They say these things come in cycles. When I graduated from college, there was a slight shortage of teachers. 5 years later, there was a saturation of teachers. Now there seems to be a slight shortage again.

Hopefully they will sort out the Gaeilge teachers though. Although at primary level, I do be shocked at how poor their grasp of Gaeilge is but then English is much the same!

There is currently an oversupply of primary teachers in Ireland and from what I know a lot of them are taking on temporary contracts or going abroad. Maybe though in some parts it is harder to recruit.

gaeilgemad

Another question -- who is reproducing in Ireland? Are the parents of a lot of the new kids coming in to schools from other countries?