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Teacher shortages in Irish

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    #32
    Noveight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    To draw people in to teaching Irish at 2nd level they'll have to create greater incentives. What options would the dept. of Education have in that line?


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    #33
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Noveight wrote: »
    To draw people in to teaching Irish at 2nd level they'll have to create greater incentives. What options would the dept. of Education have in that line?

    It's not in their remit though. Demand will create supply... in the meantime, needs of the school prevail ... which means unqualified / retired teachers etc


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    #34
    janes1234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 101 ✭✭janes1234


    mtoutlemonde wrote: »
    I know, I wasn't actually at the workshop but received the slides. If I had been there, I would have asked that question. I know my local education centre offers free diplomas in Chinese teaching - I don't know how much you will learn in ten classes. I definitely wouldn't be happy to teach it even to TYs.

    I would love to know why there is a push for Spanish. In my last school, French was like the poor relation. It is only causing competition between subjects. I would like to see the day when students could study two languages for Leaving Cert. and it is possible - there are students who would be capable of doing it.
    From I've seen of the exam paper, Spanish is more difficult than French at Leaving Cert, not sure about Junior Cert.

    There is and should be a push for Spanish as it is the third language in the world. It is about time French took more of a back seat. I say this as a teacher of both. There are more As at JC level in Sp than any other modern foreign language. It I'd no easier than the French.


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    #35
    Seannew1
    Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭Seannew1


    https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2017/1020/913810-school-leaders-conference/ Good work, Bruton, at least we can always rely on you in a time of crisis!!!


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    #36
    mtoutlemonde
    Registered Users Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    janes1234 wrote: »
    There is and should be a push for Spanish as it is the third language in the world. It is about time French took more of a back seat. I say this as a teacher of both. There are more As at JC level in Sp than any other modern foreign language. It I'd no easier than the French.

    I have no problem with other languages being pushed - it's the way some schools go about it. As I said, in a previous school there was more of a push for Spanish hence the small numbers of students taking French. We also had similar exam papers but the Spanish teachers would correct them more easily so that students would score higher, making the decision of choosing between French and Spanish an easy one with students opting for the subject they scored higher in because 'it's easier'. That situation is detrimental for students who will then not achieve at Junior Certificate and created a unheard competition between departments. I know that's not every school.

    I think it is about time where students should have an option to study two languages for JC/LC - it reduces competition between departments and caters for the student(s) who find languages easier.
    janes1234 wrote: »
    There are more As at JC level in Sp than any other modern foreign language.

    JC 2017:
    French: Total number of candidates: 23699, of which 2426 candidates received an A grade.

    Spanish: Total number of candidates: 7742, of which 1126 candidates received an A grade.


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    #37
    mtoutlemonde
    Registered Users Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    Seannew1 wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2017/1020/913810-school-leaders-conference/ Good work, Bruton, at least we can always rely on you in a time of crisis!!!

    That is absolutely ridiculous!! Shame on Minister Bruton!! I think if this is to go ahead, I would stay unemployed for a year and do the training for free!! It shows what he thinks about the teaching profession like the posters who come on here thinking that teaching is an easy ride and anyone can do it qualified or not. Will he do the same for nursing??

    Why don't the department try and promote Irish by setting up a course similar to the maths programme in UL for teachers to upskill in Irish - I would definitely be interested.


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    #38
    Noveight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    mtoutlemonde wrote: »
    That is absolutely ridiculous!! Shame on Minister Bruton!! I think if this is to go ahead, I would stay unemployed for a year and do the training for free!!

    4 year Undergrad:€12,000
    2 year PME: €10,000

    Six years and 22k worth of education to be offered to the "economically inactive" for free..? A shambles. There's also the thought of attracting people to become teachers who will do so only for the money. What kind of educators will that produce?

    I sincerely hope this is the first idea which is written out of consideration.


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    #39
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Seannew1 wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2017/1020/913810-school-leaders-conference/ Good work, Bruton, at least we can always rely on you in a time of crisis!!!

    Wtf ! ! Homemakers !!
    Is this guy on drugs or something?
    I can imagine the teaching council..
    "ahhh what's yer degree in?"
    "Homemaking...+ springboard"
    "OK off ya go"

    The mind boggles


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    #40
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,522 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Just because someone is a homemaker for a time doesn't mean they are unqualified. They might be more qualified than you!


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    #41
    mtoutlemonde
    Registered Users Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    fits wrote: »
    Just because someone is a homemaker for a time doesn't mean they are unqualified. They might be more qualified than you!

    Yeah that's what I think he means - graduates of other disciplines who can't find work, may decide to stay at home to rear a family or temporarily care for someone etc. I think you have to be a graduate of something to do springboard.


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    #42
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,522 ✭✭✭✭fits


    mtoutlemonde wrote: »
    . I think you have to be a graduate of something to do springboard.

    Some entry requirements for springboard are quite tough. I'm a homemaker at the moment and I have a science PhD. A secure job with less travel would suit many like me.


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    #43
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    fits wrote: »
    Just because someone is a homemaker for a time doesn't mean they are unqualified. They might be more qualified than you!

    If the Minister intends them to train as teachers then the inference is they're not currently qualified teachers and so not more qualified than teachers for teaching. That's the only context that matters here and quite obviously what the quoted post refers to. The fact the Minister refers to them as homemakers, and not graduates/engineers/translators etc currently taking time out (for whatever reason) shows he hasn't actually given the suitability of his targets for this initiative any consideration, and that he sees this as a cheap easy fix.

    It takes a 2 year masters (in addition to subject degree) or a full concurrent subject teaching degree to qualify. How could a Springboard course suffice no matter what prior qualifications are held?

    This is a bullsh1t idea. Springboard to retrain those with oversubscribed subjects might be more viable. And measures to address the shortage of Maths/Science /Language grads entering teaching and to tackle the problem of teachers who are available being unable to afford to work in the GDA.


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    #44
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    fits wrote: »
    Some entry requirements for springboard are quite tough. I'm a homemaker at the moment and I have a science PhD. A secure job with less travel would suit many like me.

    Lack of job security at second level is one of the reasons there's currently a shortage of teachers. It's not all the Indo e al paint it to be.


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    #45
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,522 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Sierra Drab Mathematician wrote: »
    If the Minister intends them to train as teachers then the inference is they're not currently qualified teachers and so not more qualified than teachers for teaching. That's the only context that matters here and quite obviously what the quoted post refers to. The fact the Minister refers to them as homemakers, and not graduates/engineers/translators etc currently taking time out (for whatever reason) shows he hasn't actually given the suitability of his targets for this initiative any consideration, and that he sees this as a cheap easy fix.

    Way to backtrack. the original post was prejudicial against people at home raising children and you know it
    It takes a 2 year masters (in addition to subject degree) or a full concurrent subject teaching degree to qualify. How could a Springboard course suffice no matter what prior qualifications are held?

    Why wouldn't it. ? There's no reason why a springboard course couldn't be a 2 year masters qualification if required.


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    #46
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,522 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Sierra Drab Mathematician wrote: »
    Lack of job security at second level is one of the reasons there's currently a shortage of teachers. It's not all the Indo e al paint it to be.

    For subjects with a shortage of teachers?


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    #47
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,426 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    This 'initiative' smacks of the thought process which occurred during the not so distant past in the UK. Train up ex army people as teachers in a quick fire scheme and shore up the shortage of teachers. Was quickly abandoned when they realised most of them were wholey unsuitable candidates when it actually came to interacting and teaching children.


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    #48
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    fits wrote: »
    Way to backtrack. the original post was prejudicial against people at home raising children and you know it



    Why wouldn't it. ? There's no reason why a springboard course couldn't be a 2 year masters qualification if required.

    I completely disagree with your claim regarding the post. I think you're just looking for offence.

    That hasn't been the nature of springboard courses up to now and hard to see why a Springboard course would be needed then in the first place - all that would be required would be measures to increase entry of these target groups into the myriad courses already in existence. As it is there's absolutely no shortage of entrants to these courses and no shortage of places on many of them. Hundreds of teachers qualify every year from bricks and mortar institutions and probably in excess of a thousand when Hibernia is included.

    The problem is the wrong subject grads are doing them (better opportunities for the required grads elsewhere and apparently easier entry for Arts grads due to higher grades on average among Arts graduates when compared to STEM grads) and that vast numbers of those who complete the qualification find better opportunities elsewhere - either abroad or in another field. Why would these Springboard entrants be less likely to follow the same route?


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    #49
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    fits wrote: »
    For subjects with a shortage of teachers?

    Yes.


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    #50
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    fits wrote: »
    Just because someone is a homemaker for a time doesn't mean they are unqualified. They might be more qualified than you!

    Ahhhh no they're not


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    #51
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    fits wrote: »
    Some entry requirements for springboard are quite tough. I'm a homemaker at the moment and I have a science PhD. A secure job with less travel would suit many like me.

    Soooooo could you teach Irish?


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    #52
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    fits wrote: »
    Way to backtrack. the original post was prejudicial against people at home raising children and you know it



    Why wouldn't it. ? There's no reason why a springboard course couldn't be a 2 year masters qualification if required.

    Well why not do a 2 year masters then?


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    #53
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,522 ✭✭✭✭fits


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Soooooo could you teach Irish?

    I could teach maths and science.


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    #54
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,522 ✭✭✭✭fits


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Well why not do a 2 year masters then?

    I might. I have ten month old twins and out of the workforce a year. I was working in Finland before that. Looking at options now. Research is way too precarious and requires international mobility.


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    #55
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    fits wrote: »
    I could teach maths and science.

    Do you have a Maths degree? Very few Science grads are qualified to teach Maths - even Physics grads. There's also no shortage of Biology teachers so it wouldn't be a target subject - don't know what your area is but just to clarify.


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    #56
    fits
    Registered Users Posts: 13,522 ✭✭✭✭fits


    Sierra Drab Mathematician wrote: »
    Do you have a Maths degree? Very few Science grads are qualified to teach Maths - even Physics grads. There's also no shortage of Biology teachers so it wouldn't be a target subject - don't know what your area is but just to clarify.

    I have a first class honours in mechanical engineering from UCD. Not sure what that qualifies me for. Not biology anyway


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    #57
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    fits wrote: »
    I have a first class honours in mechanical engineering from UCD. Not sure what that qualifies me for. Not biology anyway

    I have a colleague with the same qualification. He was only qualified for Applied Maths and had to do additional modules through the OU and Maynooth to qualify in Maths and Physics. There's also now (since Jan 2017) an additional requirement to have min 10 credits each of Biology and Chemistry to teach JC Science if Physics is your specialism. That wasn't in place when he trained but he says he would not have had this.


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    #58
    SligoBrewer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭SligoBrewer


    fits wrote: »
    I could teach maths and science.

    Probably just science unless you've a separate maths degree.

    Engineering and Physics grads can't teach Maths.


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    #59
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    fits wrote: »
    I might. I have ten month old twins and out of the workforce a year. I was working in Finland before that. Looking at options now. Research is way too precarious and requires international mobility.

    Fair enough if you want to get qualified.
    You could understand why teachers would be angry that a fast-track program would be brought in. Especially after the 'hdip' was extended.... then probation brought in after you graduate... worth more nonsense courses to do on top.
    If I were you, sure I'd be jumping to bypass all that with a springboard course.

    But from my perspective it sounds like the 'teach first' initiative in the UK. This had higher numbers entering to plug the gap... but half who tried it left (employers saw it as a good stepping stone to have I.e. for sales and customer service).
    But for a student ... watching that yearly churn can't be good.


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    #60
    userb
    Registered Users Posts: 47 ✭userb


    Just wondering regarding this language strategy which has yet to be published, but how on earth is this going to work then will the Department give schools extra hours specifically for these languages? Like Italian and Spanish if they want more than one done at Junior Certificate?


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