Inability to learn our native language

Sleepy

It's less an inability to learn it than a mixture of an inability to teach it, a widespread lack of interest in the language and a large dollop of resentment at having it forced upon you.

Personally, there were loads of subjects I'd loved to have learned in secondary school that I couldn't take on due to limitations of my school's timetabling and slightly higher preferences for other subjects. I'd love to have studied Woodwork, Tech Drawing, Metalwork, German, Spanish, Latin, Classics etc. in addition to French, Geography, History, Business Studies etc.

Having to forego the opportunity to study things you're interested in, in part due to the State's insistence that you learn something of no real use and that you have no interest in is always going to foster resentment for that subject. The same was true of Religion, and I suspect that for many, if to a lesser extent, it would be true of Maths (which, while it has many practical applications, is of low interest to many).

JollyBustard

It's definitely how it's taught, and the lack of immersion, for want of a better term.

Up til Junior Cert I had no interest or competency with the language. Went to Gaeltacht after TY for the first time and by the time I got around to LC (only twice going to Gaeltacht) I was quite capable - particularly with conversational Irish to manage better than a pass grade in honors. (Had been contemplating dropping prior to the Gaeltacht). I could still get away with a very basic conversation these many years after school, having not dealt with it since.

If the Gaeltacht was stressed much more (and not one of the p*ss-taking ones where people just speak English most of the time) and at a younger age then I would imagine the proficiency in everyday use would be much higher. An idea might be a family style resort in Irish, catering for all levels in both childer and adult.

All that aside however, it's just not a helpful language to have, so despite the fact that I love we have our own language, and that I'm passable at it (ask any American and they'll tell you I'm fluent in 'Gaelic'), I would much rather have learned other European languages for job prospects and the like. There's no practical use of Irish, though it's terrible to think it's going away.

'Tír gan Teanga, Tír gan Anam' and all that.

astrofool

In Singapore, some (significant minority of) people will only speak the one language, thus there is much utility to be had in learning and being able to converse in all the languages, similarly, I know a lot of Americans who have learnt Spanish just to communicate better with people they work with, or work for them.

For Irish, the group of all people who speak Irish is a subset of people who speak English, there is no extra utility earned from also knowing Irish, and if they do, the communication will often be sub-par vs. just speaking in English in the first place (especially if talking about modern subjects, where Irish hasn't got a word yet), thus people don't bother.

In saying that, Welsh is a growing language in a similar situation, with the big difference that they don't force it upon people who don't want to learn it.

A Little Pony

Irish people are ingrained into British culture, British food, British sports, British music, British films and with that the English language. What is the shock here? It's been the case for centuries of Irish people speaking English. Irish is not ever going to come back.

Get used to it, learn Irish if you want but this folly of expecting to get millions of Irish people speaking Irish is just that, a folly. Something like 79 thousand people speak Irish daily out of a country up to 4 million. It's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things and is the epitome of a hobby. Most people aren't arsed, never will be arsed. Deal with it.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

There is no incentive to learn Irish, so people don't bother. This is hardly unique to Ireland, minority languages have vanished all around the globe. Many of those that are in a stronger position, like Welsh, benefited from relative economic prosperity in the areas where the language was spoken.

Agricola

Ta madra rua i mo chonai ar ais go dti an siopa bheag!


TBH, I think we should keep it going in school, just so we all have enough to talk incomprehensible nonsense amongst ourselves, while abroad, in an effort to impress foreigners. And isn't impressing foreigners THE most Irish of hobbies anyway.

c_man

I wish I could speak it and really lament wasting the hours of it in school. Sure it was taught badly but I think the bigger issue was the attitude I had towards it. I've give younger me a hiding if I could.

A Little Pony

Shenshen wrote: »

I don't know how it's being taught as I'm not from Ireland.
But my observation would be that as long as nobody WANTS to speak it, it will keep dying. And if people wanted to speak it, there's nothing stopping them.

So the real question is actually why people have no interest in speaking the language among themselves, with friends and family. If you want Irish to become a living language again, that's where you need to start your efforts. Not in school.

And I feel that a language that is not being spoken by the vast, vast majority of a given population can hardly be said to be their native language.

It's got nothing to do with how it's taught. It's not a part of daily life for the vast majority of people, that is why. Why would people go through the trouble to learn Irish and make it the language they use on a daily basis when English is one of the most used languages in the world?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Incidentally, people who complain about English words being used in Irish clearly haven't heard most other languages in the world today. Koreans continually talk about their 'hand phone' and 'computah', while Latin Americans talk about 'realities' on tv and having a 'baby shower'. The French take it to ridiculous extents when they talk about 'le weekend'.

whisky_galore

JollyBustard wrote: »

'Tír gan Teanga, Tír gan Anam' and all that.

This line is almost inevitably trotted out.

Does this mean that countries like Cuba, Mexico, the States, Canada, etc etc don't have a 'soul' because the 1st languages are either extinct or spoken by a tiny minority?

JollyBustard

whisky_galore wrote: »

This line is almost inevitably trotted out.

Does this mean that countries like Cuba, Mexico, the States, Canada, etc etc don't have a 'soul' because the 1st languages are either extinct or spoken by a tiny minority?

I've highlighted the bit that's relevant in our case... Spoken by a tiny minority, but still alive. However, lose the language, and obviously it's not going to be a cataclysmic event, but it's still hard to conceive. Particularly in the case of Irish - it's among one of the oldest spoken languages in the world, fizzled out due to disinterest? Also, something something culture etc. ie - it's very much a part of the language-soul equation, which I believe Cuba and Mexico have plenty of? (Less so States and Canada, but I'm always for being proven wrong) Perhaps the phrase could do with a bit of finangling to fit culture in, but it still stands.

And apologies for trotting out what I'm sure is a cliché in these discussions, but I'm relatively new on boards, so... Oops, but don't particularly care?

Crea

It's taught badly from the get go. It should be spoken first, give the childen a ear for it- none of this spelling or workbook crap until 5th class. Teachers should speak irish to the kids most of the time at primary level. Irish stories should be read to and by the children.
The way it's taught now most kids hate Irish which is an awful shame

Chips Lovell

I don't think the teaching of Irish is the issue or, at least, the main issue. Learning and retaining a language is hard, particularly in an environment when it isn't spoken. You need strong motivation to do so and sentimental attachment will rarely provide that.

We're the same with European languages. Approximately 73 percent of Irish people speak no foreign languages. That's by far the highest in the EU. Why? English is widely spoken as a second language, meaning we've less need to learn another.

Leroy42

With the range of referendums coming surely it is time to put this to the people.

I would imagine that as a default most would vote to keep it.

But surely it is time for a proper debate on whether the costs involved are worth. Whether the time spent on it is worth it. Whether is does identify us as a nation more than say the GAA, or Irish dancing, or U2 or whatever.

Either way it would open up the debate to actuals rather than anecdotal and deal with the issue.

whisky_galore

Crea wrote: »

It's taught badly from the get go.

There must have been hundreds upon thousands and indeed generations of incompetent Irish teachers if that were the case.

Leroy42

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I don't think the teaching of Irish is the issue or, at least, the main issue. Learning and retaining a language is hard, particularly in an environment when it isn't spoken. You need strong motivation to do so and sentimental attachment will rarely provide that.

We're the same with European languages. Approximately 73 percent of Irish people speak no foreign languages. That's by far the highest in the EU. Why? English is widely spoken as a second language, meaning we've less need to learn another.

There was an interesting article recently (I think it was the Guardian but can't recall) in terms of language teaching in England.

The main point was the author was arguing that teaching of a foreign language was all wrong through schools as it normally was a few 40 minute classes a week over a few years. In most cases, it is well understood that the best way to learn a language is to immerse oneself in it.

So rather than the failing teaching methods, use the class time to learn about foreign cultures. The history of other countries, the music, dance etc. As children become interested in the country they will naturally want to know more and will want to learn the language.

whisky_galore

Leroy42 wrote: »

Whether is does identify us as a nation more than say the GAA, or Irish dancing, or U2 or whatever.

Why aren't Gaelic games or traditional music or dancing required subjects? Are they not part and parcel of Irish culture?

These things seem to flourish compared to Irish without the need for making them obligatory.

BrianBoru00

The reasons we 'can't speak' Irish is because we don't speak Irish.

If we had to speak it every day everyone would become quite competent within a couple of weeks.

Leroy42

whisky_galore wrote: »

There must have been hundreds upon thousands and indeed generations of incompetent Irish teachers if that were the case.

They didn't say the teachers were incompetent, they said it was taught badly. That could be a problem with the curriculum rather than the teaching.

What is the overall aim of the curriculum? It is to develop the growth and use of the language or is it to follow a course which (at least when I was in school) seemed mirrored on the English course, ie learn poetry, serious novels etc?

I would seriously question if there has been any improvement in the overall use of Irish in the general populace despite years of trying and millions (billions?) being spent on it.

Surely at some point one need to at least accept that the current system is not working.

Crea

whisky_galore wrote: »

There must have been hundreds upon thousands and indeed generations of incompetent Irish teachers if that were the case.

Since the foundation of the state Irish has been taught badly. Teach it a a spoken language first - enough of learning verbs and spelling and ****e.

Triceratops Ballet

As many have said the education system is totally to blame here. There are so many people looking to be primary teachers who don't have a sufficient level of competency in the language at all. For primary teaching you only need a c3 or higher at LC to get into the course, I've seen plenty of threads on boards, and met plenty of people who desperately want to teach primary but are looking for a way round the Irish requirement, or who just swat up on a short course to get through the exam, how can they then put themselves in a position of giving students a solid foundation in the language, when they themselves don't have one.

If Irish is to continue being taught in the same manner as English then the teachers should have the same fluency requirement as English to teach it. Failing that, it should be re-taught from scratch at secondary level by people who have degrees in the language, with the assumption that kids learned nothing of it from their primary teachers!

realdanbreen

justshane wrote: »

Hi everyone so I recently traveled to Singapore. For anyone that's been they will know they're 3 races that make up the majority of Singaporeans. Chinese, Malays, and Indians. English is everyone's first language in Singapore but each race also learn there native language in the school system and everyone I encountered can speak both fluently.

My question is what are we doing so wrong in Ireland? How come the overwhelming majority of us can't hold a basic conversation in Irish? We spend the guts of 14 years learning it. My intial thoughts are it is just the method and process of the teaching but that's founded on nothing!

Curious on people's thoughts.

It's not just the Irish language that's the problem. Youngsters can give five or six years being 'taught' French German Spanish whatever and not be able to string 3 or 4 sentences together at the end of it. The problem is that no politician is prepared to take on the Department of education + the teacher unions on this.

the_syco

Wibbs wrote: »

There was a higher percentage of Irish speakers in 1917 than there is in 2017. This happened in the Irish civil service when the daily requirement for the language was dropped, within weeks the language was dropped in daily use. And these were people who could already speak it.

I'd say the administration helped kill off the Irish language as well, as the administration was all done in English, so if you wanted to pay fines, or get info, you needed an english speaker.

Shenshen wrote: »

So the real question is actually why people have no interest in speaking the language among themselves, with friends and family. If you want Irish to become a living language again, that's where you need to start your efforts. Not in school.

It's not useful, and most of us can only recite poems with it. Instead of trying to get current people to speak it, just get the new generation to speak it. But before you can teach it, first someone has to rejig how it's taught, as the current way is only fit to pass the JC and LC with, but nothing else.

tara73 wrote: »

adding to this the language is really, really difficult in itself to learn, it's the opposite of learning english or even french is like a walk in a park in comparison to irish. which is nobodys fault, it's just a point which adds to the fact so little people speak it fluently.

Actually, it's the fault of the people that demand we learn it. I'd say the only thing that changed in the last 50 years was that we can't be whipped any more.

=-=

I did French for three years. I have a better grasp of it than I do Irish.

ForestFire

Have not read the entire thread in detail, just posting my experience.

I was "taught" Irish through the normal school process, which I believe is deeply flawed for all the reasons others have said.

Our little one has gone to the Naíonra last year and again this year for her 2 year EEC preschool time.
She is also enrolled to go to the Gaelscoil next year for her primary education.

This I believe will ensure she learns the language the correct way that will also stay with her. It will also have the benefit of one subject for her leaving cert that will require much less work.

I do not see anything negative about doing primary education through Irish for kids (unless there is some strong belief from the parents for some reason?). There are at least 4 kids of African decent, 1 Korean and others from eastern European attending quite happily, that we know of.

There is an option to continue in Irish into secondary, but talking to the principle even in the time to sixth class they will be fluent in the language.

Leroy42

I'm not against the learning of Irish in schools, although I am against how it is taught and how it is seen as a core subject and given elevated status. I have an issue that just because a child happens to be brought up in an Irish speaking household, and thus able to undertake learning and exams in Irish, that they should be given an advantage over equally intelligent and hardworking students who happen, through no fault of their own, to have no grounding in the subject and will likely never reach the required level to take exams in Irish.

That to me signals that even those that love the language, accept that without the stick the vast majority of people wouldn't bother with it.

So what we have currently is every child is forced to learn a language, that in many cases even their parents see no value in. But they are forced, under threat of having no future, to learn it. Is their any educational research to show the benefits of forcing people to learn? I would be amazed it if showed a greater result that getting people interested in a subject.

At best, you will get people that achieve the required in order to move on, but I would struggle to think that it is a way in which to build loyalty or love for a subject.

Going back to the core nature of it, is the only argument for it being core that without that requirement it would die out. What does that say about the language itself.

Leroy42

ForestFire wrote: »

Have not read the entire thread in detail, just posting my experience.

I was "taught" Irish through the normal school process, which I believe is deeply flawed for all the reasons others have said.

Our little one has gone to the Naíonra last year and again this year for her 2 year EEC preschool time.
She is also enrolled to go to the Gaelscoil next year for her primary education.

This I believe will ensure she learns the language the correct way that will also stay with her. It will also have the benefit of one subject for her leaving cert that will require much less work.

I do not see anything negative about doing primary education through Irish for kids (unless there is some strong belief from the parents for some reason?). There are at least 4 kids of African decent, 1 Korean and others from eastern European attending quite happily, that we know of.

There is an option to continue in Irish into secondary, but talking to the principle even in the time to sixth class they will be fluent in the language.

The major problem with that is that no everyone has access to Naíonra or a gaelscoil. In our area, our child did a year in Naíonra, the gaelscoil places are limited and went to children who spoke Irish at home. I argued that that meant, at best, a stagnation or the language, as only those that knew it would be taught it.

I doubt anyone is arguing that Irish shouldn't be available to all and sundry if they wish, and certainly the government should be investing in it. But the current situation, as expressed by many already, clearly does not work and may actually be harming the language.

witchgirl26

Haven't read every post in detail but here's my 2 cents. There's 2 reasons Irish isn't spoken well by the majority is down to:

1. The way it's taught. The course for Junior & Leaving Cert isn't necessarily inspiring to learn. And that's coming from someone who went to a Gaelscoil. I loved Irish but we finished the Leaving Cert course in mid-late 5th year and spent 6th year actually enjoying the language which gave me an appreciation for it.

2. Parents don't speak it to their children. We can't fully blame the education system here, parents have a roll too. I don't mean that they have to be fluent but as a young child I was always taught a few small words of Irish at home and encourage to intermingle them with English. Milk was regularly referred to as "Pass the bainne". It's not a massive thing but it normalises the use of it so you do use it every so often and that's how it can grow.

osarusan

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

As many have said the education system is totally to blame here.

I don't think that's true.

With a fantastic language education curriculum, we might have people leaving school with very good levels of Irish, but that doesn't mean they will be maintained after leaving school.

There are plenty of people who left school with high levels of French or German, but who gradually lost it through lack of use.

It needs to have a widespread use outside the education system.

Leroy42

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Haven't read every post in detail but here's my 2 cents. There's 2 reasons Irish isn't spoken well by the majority is down to:

1. The way it's taught. The course for Junior & Leaving Cert isn't necessarily inspiring to learn. And that's coming from someone who went to a Gaelscoil. I loved Irish but we finished the Leaving Cert course in mid-late 5th year and spent 6th year actually enjoying the language which gave me an appreciation for it.

2. Parents don't speak it to their children. We can't fully blame the education system here, parents have a roll too. I don't mean that they have to be fluent but as a young child I was always taught a few small words of Irish at home and encourage to intermingle them with English. Milk was regularly referred to as "Pass the bainne". It's not a massive thing but it normalises the use of it so you do use it every so often and that's how it can grow.

But its the chicken and egg story. How do you expect parents to help the kids when they themselves either hate the memories of their own educational journey or simply see it as useless?

There are plenty (all) parents that give over huge amounts of time to GAA, Rugby, piano lessons, Irish dancing, ballet, swimming blah blah, so what is the reason they will do that but not, as your rightly suggest, encourage Irish?

Leroy42

osarusan wrote: »

I don't think that's true.

With a fantastic language education curriculum, we might have people leaving school with very good levels of Irish, but that doesn't mean they will be maintained after leaving school.

There are plenty of people who left school with high levels of French or German, but who gradually lost it through lack of use.

It needs to have a widespread use outside the education system.

So what do you blame it on?

In terms of German and French, you can rest assured that those that require it for work or living have continued it.

Widespread use? We have a dedicated radio channel, a dedicated TV channel, every official document is written in both English and Irish. You can be dealt with in Irish in all state bodies. Traffic signs. Europe spends millions translating all documents into Irish.

Irish is literally everywhere. This is the usual refrain from those decrying the lack of Irish in public. Resources etc. Millions is spent on it, countless hours are given over to broadcasting in it. We have parts of the country given special status that provides incentives for Irish only. Parts of Donegal etc are signposted in only Irish.

At what point do people start to question whether it is the language that is the problem, rather than everything else? And that is why I think a referendum is a good idea. It will fail, I have no doubt about that, as people will pull on the green jersey and proclaim that it is the essence of Irishness (even if they never speak it). But it will generate debate. Start a conversation about whether it is actually playing a positive role in the Ireland of today.

ForestFire

Leroy42 wrote: »

The major problem with that is that no everyone has access to Naíonra or a gaelscoil. In our area, our child did a year in Naíonra, the gaelscoil places are limited and went to children who spoke Irish at home. I argued that that meant, at best, a stagnation or the language, as only those that knew it would be taught it.

I doubt anyone is arguing that Irish shouldn't be available to all and sundry if they wish, and certainly the government should be investing in it. But the current situation, as expressed by many already, clearly does not work and may actually be harming the language.

Yes I agree, maybe we are lucky that we have these options available to us, but I believe this is the only way to teach the language, outside the Gaeltact areas.

Rolling this out to most/all primary education is going to take time, but the hope is that the pupils of today, will increase the number of Irish teachers in the future that will have the ability and passion to teach through Irish themselves to the next generation?

osarusan

Leroy42 wrote: »

So what do you blame it on?

What do I blame what on?

Yes, those that need French and German retain it - that's my point. There's a need there. And that need creates value and motivation.

Irish doesn't have that. And Irish isn't literally everywhere - it's on a TV channel few people watch, and radio stations few people listen to, and state and EU documents few people read. There is widespread access for those who want to access it...but few do. It isn't widespread use at all.

Look up any language revitalisation process, and it will say the same thing. You need the support of the adults. Develop it it a language of the community, spoken by adults, and that makes everything else so much easier.

In other successful revitalisation projects, like Hebrew, Catalan, Maori..there were links with identity and a place as a minority (perhaps an oppressed minority) within society which really helped with the people's motivation towards renewal of the language.

In Ireland, Irish speakers are not a minority group with a different identity in the same way that Maori or Catalans are...they are just Irish like everybody else. That is possibly part of the problem - it's not really tied to our identity in the way that other revitalised languages are, as we're not under the kind of pressure or threat that they often are.

And you said earlier that it's a chicken and egg situation regarding Irish-speaking adults, and I agree with that too. I have said many times that the language is on life support, and I think that's about as good as it's going to get. I don't ever foresee a widespread revitalisation of the language. There are simply not enough people who care enough to make it happen.

I will absolutely agree that there is a lot of money wasted on Irish, but unless we are simply going to let it die completely, maintaining it even at current levels is going to cost money.

Leroy42

ForestFire wrote: »

Yes I agree, maybe we are lucky that we have these options available to us, but I believe this is the only way to teach the language, outside the Gaeltact areas.

Rolling this out to most/all primary education is going to take time, but the hope is that the pupils of today, will increase the number of Irish teachers in the future that will have the ability and passion to teach through Irish themselves to the next generation?

Herein lies the problem. I agree that it will take time, but while we take that time children within the education sector continue to be badly serviced. Hope seems to be the overriding principal within the plan for Irish. If we just hope hard enough then Irish will flourish, despite the last 70/80 years of evidence to the contrary.

After 80 years of direct investment why do we not have sufficient teaching standards? Why would we expect this generation to buck a trend that has been ongoing for the last few generations? What is different now?

And in the meantime, whilst we await the grand awaking, pupils up and down the country and forced to sit through nearly 5 hours a week, for every week of every year of their education, of Irish class to end up not far from whence they started and based on most reports, with a negative attitude to the language.

Whilst at the same time we face an obesity epidemic through lack of PE, kids don't do well enough in maths, science struggles to increase in take up. Very few schools offer coding as a subject. Home economics (budgeting, civic studies etc). There is a finite time to teach children and currently we are using up a large portion of it and something that achieves very little.

Larbre34

The education system is not to blame for the poor levels of spoken Irish among our population. The Catch 22 of teaching someone Irish only for them rarely, if ever, to have reason speak it routinely, is the sole reason it does not catch on in the populous like 2nd and even 3rd Languages in other EU Countries.

Irish was decimated during the years of British occupation. The elimination of native language did not occur in other European empires and occupations. Those same European nations lived proximate to other ethnicities in a way that did not occur in Ireland. For that reason, they picked up the neighbouring language in a practical way, i.e. for trading, negotiating, socialising, while still maintaining their own. Subsequently, levels of English improved on the continent through entertainment, wartime co-operation and the common language of business.

My wife was taught at Primary level through Irish. By the time she reached Leaving Cert after doing Secondary through English, her Irish proficiency was gone. I too used to have a good level of Irish and worked summers in Gaeltacht colleges as a leader / monitor, but again I'd be embarrassed enough to return to Connemara and use it now, purely because I am so rusty.

I love Irish, but my belief is it should be dropped as a core subject, in favour of continental languages with business and social importance, while Irish should become extra-curricular with the emphasis on social usage, historical context and a fun aspect to learning. In my opinion, its the only way 'grá na teanga' might be improved

Leroy42

osarusan wrote: »

What do I blame what on?

You argued that it wasn't the education system to blame. Since this is the way in which Irish has tried to be increased through direct education to children, I fail to see how you can blame anything else. By any metric, the education system has failed in the aim to increase Irish usage in the populace.

osarusan wrote: »

Yes, those that need French and German retain it - that's my point. There's a need there. And that need creates value and motivation.

Irish doesn't have that. And Irish isn't literally everywhere - it's on a TV channel few people watch, and radio stations few people listen to, and state and EU documents few people read. There is widespread access for those who want to access it...but few do. It isn't widespread use at all.

For those that want it it is widespread. The fact that the vast majority don't watch/listen/read is therefore not because of the lack of availability, it is a choice. Look at the speeches after the AI finals. Bit of Irish by the GAA president, and I reckon 90% of the people aren't even listening. Same for the winning captain. I hear and see Irish everyday. I, like all others, can access it very easily if I wish.

osarusan wrote: »

Look up any language revitalisation process, and it will say the same thing. You need the support of the adults. Develop it it a language of the community, spoken by adults, and that makes everything else so much easier.

In other successful revitalisation projects, like Hebrew, Catalan, Maori..there were links with identity and a place as a minority (perhaps an oppressed minority) within society which really helped with the people's motivation towards renewal of the language.

In Ireland, Irish speakers are not a minority group with a different identity in the same way that Maori or Catalans are...they are just Irish like everybody else. That is possibly part of the problem - it's not really tied to our identity in the way that other revitalised languages are, as we're not under the kind of pressure or threat that they often are.

Agreed. IMO, many Irish people simply do not see the Irish language as an integral part of being Irish. Its nice to have, a cupla focal on a foreign trip, but not worth the time or hassle. You would have to question just how integral it really is.

osarusan wrote: »

And you said earlier that it's a chicken and egg situation regarding Irish-speaking adults, and I agree with that too. I have said many times that the language is on life support, and I think that's about as good as it's going to get. I don't ever foresee a widespread revitalisation of the language. There are simply not enough people who care enough to make it happen.

I will absolutely agree that there is a lot of money wasted on Irish, but unless we are simply going to let it die completely, maintaining it even at current levels is going to cost money.

But we don't treat the arts in the same way, or Irish dancing or GAA. For many, they would see them as more integral and in many ways actually offer a better gateway into reviving the language. I am not for a second saying that we stop spending money on the promotion of Irish, I would even go as far as saying that we simply re-divert the current spend on education onto a different area to try to gain acceptance.

The last 80 years+ shows that it is not working. But it seems we are too scared to try something else lest the language suffers. Well guess what, the language is suffering, has been for years, and will continue to suffer unless we accept that things are not working and actually look for an alternative.

If it didn't work on the generation before, why would it work now if nothing changes?

ForestFire

Leroy42 wrote: »

After 80 years of direct investment why do we not have sufficient teaching standards? Why would we expect this generation to buck a trend that has been ongoing for the last few generations? What is different now?

Unfortunately 80 years of bad education I would say (Irish), but both by Nephew and Niece are now going to a Gaelscoil, where none existed when I was young.

The local Gaelscoil, were I now live, would also not have been around when I was young.

I am not sure of the increase in Gaelscoils around the country, but found this article interesting for a few reasons:-

1) The increase is clearly there and needs to be expedited
2)The absolute sock the "accusation of elitism" about young kids learning Irish (I guess this is what your up against and the resistance??)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/the-rise-of-the-gaelscoil-is-this-the-new-playground-of-the-elite-1.1202171

As I said our local school there are children from all walks of life and possible all continents, so not sure where the elitism comer from??

Some additional Stats:-

http://www.comhairle.org/PDFs/statistics_E.pdf

The goal should be investment in primary gaelscoils for teaching our children the language naturally, How this is achieved I do not know and maybe that does just leave us with hope:(

osarusan

Leroy42 wrote: »

You argued that it wasn't the education system to blame.

I didn't.

I disagreed that it was 'totally' to blame.

Maybe your definition of 'education system' is more broad than mine, but I don't think you can hold the education system responsible for a failure to produce fluent Irish speakers any more than you can hold it responsible for a failure to produce fluent French or Germean speakers (who have studied it in school). School learning is just one part of language learning, but the other parts are lacking when it comes to Irish.

For those that want it it is widespread. The fact that the vast majority don't watch/listen/read is therefore not because of the lack of availability, it is a choice.

Yes, for those that want it availability is widespread, but as I said, so few people want it or choose to access it that it isn't widespread use.

I am not for a second saying that we stop spending money on the promotion of Irish, I would even go as far as saying that we simply re-divert the current spend on education onto a different area to try to gain acceptance.

The last 80 years+ shows that it is not working. But it seems we are too scared to try something else lest the language suffers. Well guess what, the language is suffering, has been for years, and will continue to suffer unless we accept that things are not working and actually look for an alternative.

I disagree - certainly some daft stuff like funding for translating of EU documents can be diverted. But I don't think that funds for education should be diverted (unless it is within education). I don't see any logic to taking Irish out of schools, reducing time spent on it, or making it optional at primary level, as part of a process of language revitalisation.

In my eyes, the problem is no so much the education system as the lack of value placed on the language by the rest of society.

nozzferrahhtoo

justshane wrote: »

My question is what are we doing so wrong in Ireland? How come the overwhelming majority of us can't hold a basic conversation in Irish? We spend the guts of 14 years learning it. My intial thoughts are it is just the method and process of the teaching but that's founded on nothing!

Curious on people's thoughts.

Well the first question as a complete lay person to this topic for me would be whether we DO in fact have the problem you specifically describe. In that.... I have yet to meet many people who can hold a basic conversation in French or German either. Are there statistics on this as to our nations capability with second languages in GENERAL that show that perhaps Irish is specifically a problem?

Otherwise perhaps you are framing the question wrong. Perhaps it is not an inability to learn our native language so much as a failing in how we learn a second language in general.

For example here in Germany where I now live the majority of people I meet have a very strong and workable standard of English. When talking to them I found out they learned English THROUGH English. Not a word of their native language German is used in the English Classroom from the moment the teacher first walks into the first class and points at themselves saying "My Name is Mr. Schmidt".

Whereas my memory of learning Irish and German and French and even Latin in school........ or more specifically failing to learn them much at all........ was that we learned them all through English.

So is it an inability to learn our native language or an inability to learn a second language at all?

And is it an "inability" at all on behalf of the learner, or are they actually well capable of it but we in fact have a faulty teaching methodology?

As I said I am a complete lay man to language and to the education of it, but there are questions I would certainly ask before asking the one as you have framed it here essentially placing the "blame" for the failing at the feet of the people who can not speak it.

Wibbs

Larbre34 wrote: »

Irish was decimated during the years of British occupation. The elimination of native language did not occur in other European empires and occupations.

Eh... yes it did and repeatedly. What happened to the many native languages that had flourished in areas of Europe before the Roman Empire rolled in? What happened to Pictish in Scotland after Irish missionaries and traders rolled in? They all went extinct. Hell Irish itself replaced the original language(s) of Ireland on the back of the Celtic influence/invasion. It happened and continues to happen all the time. It's pretty much how languages go extinct.

Again we're seeing blame/reasons being viewed through the simplistic prism of "T'was the Brits".

justshane

Del2005 wrote: »

The English might have tried to wipe it out but our education system killed it. How they have "thought" Irish since the foundation of the State has led to a nation that can't speak its own language after 12 years of school. Whereas in nearly every other country the children are talking multiple languages, which usually aren't native.

Very valid point.

LordSutch

Del2005 wrote: »

The English might have tried to wipe it out but our education system killed it. How they have "thought" Irish since the foundation of the State has led to a nation that can't speak its own language after 12 years of school. Whereas in nearly every other country the children are talking multiple languages, which usually aren't native.

I presume you mean "taught". Not sure the English ever tried to wipe it out either, rather like English slowly became the language of Irish commerce and the working class, with many aspiring to a language 'upgrade' by means of communication skills, and to move with the times, leaving the old Irish language to slowly die out .........

Until the 1930s, when it was decided that we'd all start speaking Irish again

SORTED.

munsterlegend

LordSutch wrote: »

I presume you mean "taught". Not sure the English ever tried to wipe it out either, rather like English slowly became the language of Irish commerce and the working class, with many aspiring to a language 'upgrade' by means of communication skills, and to move with the times, leaving the old Irish language to slowly die out .........

Until the 1930s, when it was decided that we'd all start speaking Irish again

SORTED.

It's a pity you weren't taught Irish history. The British or English as you call them didn't try to wipe out the Irish language in
the 19th century? Interesting revisionism but hardly surprising.

As for how Irish is taught, in the past it was far from ideal but today education methods have improved considerably. It is now introduced to children in a fun way and I have seen many young relatives well able to speak Irish.

Larbre34

Wibbs wrote: »

Eh... yes it did and repeatedly. What happened to the many native languages that had flourished in areas of Europe before the Roman Empire rolled in? What happened to Pictish in Scotland after Irish missionaries and traders rolled in? They all went extinct. Hell Irish itself replaced the original language(s) of Ireland on the back of the Celtic influence/invasion. It happened and continues to happen all the time. It's pretty much how languages go extinct.

Again we're seeing blame/reasons being viewed through the simplistic prism of "T'was the Brits".

Fine, leave the Brits out of it, lets just say it happened. As comparison to those you mention in ancient times, its not really valid, Irish is the only one of its type that is engaged in a battle for relevance in modern times.

LordSutch

munsterlegend wrote: »

It's a pity you weren't taught Irish history. The British or English as you call them didn't try to wipe out the Irish language in
the 19th century? Interesting revisionism but hardly surprising.

As for how Irish is taught, in the past it was far from ideal but today education methods have improved considerably. It is now introduced to children in a fun way and I have seen many young relatives well able to speak Irish.

I picked up "the English" from Del2005, as it was he who suggested that the English tried to "wipe out" the Irish language.
While I was arguing that that may not be strictly true in isolation, re its long slow demise due to the language of commerce etc.

I totally agree with you about how Irish is taught nowadays, but (after 80+ years) is it too little too late? seeing as most parents can't speak Irish anyway, hence little Saoirse or Cathal comes home from Gaelscoil bursting with Irish words, while Mum & Dad don't share in this new found enthusiasm for speaking Gaelic!

munsterlegend

LordSutch wrote: »

I picked up "the English" from Del2005, as it was he who suggested that the English tried to "wipe out" the Irish language.
While I was arguing that that may not be strictly true in isolation, re its long slow demise due to the language of commerce etc.

I totally agree with you about how Irish is taught nowadays, but (after 80+ years) is it too little too late? seeing as most parents can't speak Irish anyway, hence little Saoirse or Cathal comes home from Gaelscoil bursting with Irish words, while Mum & Dad don't share in this new found enthusiasm for speaking Gaelic!

I have known plenty Eastern European children who have come to this country and their parents have little or no English yet it hasn't stopped them learning English. Also most parents have forgotten irish due to lack of use but it comes back when a child is also learning it.

Yes commerce played a past but the subjugation of Irish culture by law under British rule certainly stopped Irish being spoken on a parity with English in this country. However now there is no reason why young people can't learn both what with the education facilities available.

JimmyMcGill

LordSutch wrote: »

I picked up "the English" from Del2005, as it was he who suggested that the English tried to "wipe out" the Irish language.
While I was arguing that that may not be strictly true re its long slow demise due to commerce etc.

I totally agree with you about how Irish is taught nowadays, but (after 80+ years) is it too little too late? seeing as most parents can't speak Irish anyway, hence little Saoirse or Cathal comes home from Gaelscoil bursting with Irish words, while Mum & Dad don't share in this new found enthusiasm for speaking Gaelic!

I'd have been one of those dads who would have had Peig beatin into me and hated the irish language ever since LC days. Ever since my daughter has started to come home with her cupla focal it has definitely rejuvenated and piqued my interest for the language.
I'd imagine a lot of parents would feel the same way even though previously they could have been dead against any irish language use previously.
I used even snort at the waste of money making signposts in dual languages... From my travels down the years and seeing how proud other countries are of their own individual languages id say get rid of the english on signposts now.

Ten years ago I'd have scoffed at the idea, not any more. That's down to a little bit more faith in how irish is being rehashed and rekindled by new teaching methods. It's brilliant to see imo.

Wibbs

Larbre34 wrote: »

As comparison to those you mention in ancient times, its not really valid, Irish is the only one of its type that is engaged in a battle for relevance in modern times.

Of course it's valid. That's how language shifts happen and have always happened. The moment they stop being the language of trade, education, science, religion etc(even rebellion) they start to fade away and another more useful language takes their place. This was happening in Irish from the 1700's. Today the only utility for the language is as cultural window dressing, or speaking with other language users, who already speak another language with more facility and with a wider vocabulary.


Now this will keep the language alive in a small percentage of the population and that's great. I mean Latin survived at least in the written word because it was the language of the church and because of that the educated classes and science for so long.

However the idea of bringing Irish back as the main spoken language of Ireland is a long busted pipe dream. And one we need to acknowledge. By all means invest in those who want to speak it, but it's pissing good money after bad investing in the rest who clearly don't.

Oh and in before "what about Hebrew?". The Jewish diaspora that poured into the newly formed state of Israel from the 40's onwards came from all points of the globe and spoke a babel of languages. They needed a common tongue a lingua franca. The Zionist movement from well before then recognised this as a problem and other existing languages had been suggested. English was one in the running, as ironically was German. In the end they revived and updated a modern version of Hebrew as their common tongue. This is not the situation in Ireland. We already have a common tongue. As indeed do the millions of the Irish diaspora, who outside of small enclaves in South America also speak the same common tongue.

SusieBlue

I went to a gaelscoil and am fluent so would be in support of the language. However I totally agree that how its taught in English speaking schools is appalling.

My god daughter goes to a Gaelscoil, she's 9 now. The way they teach it is how they should all learn. In junior infants, the kids will speak mostly English and the teacher speaks only Irish. The children won't have the capacity to reply to the teacher in Irish, and they may not even understand everything the teacher is saying. A big thing I saw is that if the child doesn't understand, rather than just say it in English, the teacher will gesture or show a picture of what they're trying to say until the kid understands.
My goddaughter knew the odd word - cota, mála scoile, etc. Before long she was speaking in English with the odd Irish word thrown in, eg "Where's my bosca lón?". Within another few months, the kids were able to mostly able to understand what the teacher was saying, and able to reply using a mixture of English and Irish.
There was no sitting down with textbooks learning verbs or anything like that.

Its such a natural way of learning, and now, aged 9, she's pretty much fluent. It would be far more successful for children to learn like this rather than with her head stuck in a book trying to make sense of the grammar and trying to decipher the meaning of a poem.

witchgirl26

Leroy42 wrote: »

But its the chicken and egg story. How do you expect parents to help the kids when they themselves either hate the memories of their own educational journey or simply see it as useless?

There are plenty (all) parents that give over huge amounts of time to GAA, Rugby, piano lessons, Irish dancing, ballet, swimming blah blah, so what is the reason they will do that but not, as your rightly suggest, encourage Irish?

I don't know why parents would do that. I'm not one myself so can't comment. However I know my other half hated learning Irish and is not a fan of it being compulsory and even said he'd make an effort to ensure any child of his would have at least a few words of Irish. My nieces in the UK can speak a few words as their dad taught them some despite not having much left of his own but he saw the importance of it.

Maybe there is a roll for schools to encourage parents when children start to help out.