Budget 2018 - Mod note in post #1

LeinsterDub

Assetbacked wrote: »

This is silly to simplify categories into "old, young and sick". That is not how these categories should be defined. The parameters around what entitles an aging person or a sick person to obtain assistance need to be refined. For example, just because one is old does not mean they should get a state pension.

I'm more than willing to engage in that discussion ,perhaps on a other thread?

However some like to wave fingers at the social welfare budget and make it seem like it's all going to some waster sitting at home. The fact unemployment benefit and benefits to the unemployed represent a small party of the state's spending.

Hitman3000

myshirt wrote:

I am disappointed they did not increase taxes on welfare to the baby boomer middle class. Most of this section of middle class have seen property prices and passive income increase hand over fist since they first bought the house, and at no expense to them.

You are aware I take it that mortgage interest rates hit 13% on the same people you are contemptuous of. People sacrificed to pay their mortgages decades ago. Your post sounds like absolute begrudgery.

pilly

Assetbacked wrote: »

This is silly to simplify categories into "old, young and sick". That is not how these categories should be defined. The parameters around what entitles an aging person or a sick person to obtain assistance need to be refined. For example, just because one is old does not mean they should get a state pension.

So now the suggestion is to throw the old people to the wolves as well? I've heard it all now. :eek:

PokeHerKing

NinjaTruncs wrote:

Has anyone worked out how much the changes in tax bands and USC work out at? I've calculated that the Tax band change is worth €150 PA and the USC change is worth €51.8. If these are right it means workers get between €1 to ~€4 a week while those on the social get €5... a ****ing disgrace if that's the case, Leo must really think there is going to be an election next year.

But do people on the scratcher even vote..?

Hitman3000

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Working people also protested against water charges. Just for clarity sake.

If folks on the scratch weren't expected to pay there would have been no protests, just for clarity sake.

Assetbacked

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I'm more than willing to engage in that discussion ,perhaps on a other thread?

However some like to waving fingers are the social welfare budget and make it seem like it's all going to some waster sitting at home. The fact unemployment benefit and benefits to the unemployed represent a small party of the states spending.

Okay, let me just get my notes;

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71GV79NPpZL._UL1500_.jpg
http://heritageaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Strawman.jpg

c6ysaphjvqw41k

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BoatMad

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

Has anyone worked out how much the changes in tax bands and USC work out at? I've calculated that the Tax band change is worth €150 PA and the USC change is worth €51.8. If these are right it means workers get between €1 to ~€4 a week while those on the social get €5... a ****ing disgrace if that's the case, Leo must really think there is going to be an election next year.

Edit: I missed where the 5% rate was being reduced to 4.75%. That still means people on low less than 20K a year have gotten less out of this budget than people not working.

Blame that on FF.

Hitman3000

Augeo wrote:

If folks on the scratch weren't expected to pay there would have been no protests, just for clarity sake.

Again you are wrong. 600k households ( they're not all on welfare) refused to engage with IW since its inception. Last reply on the topic.

Cyrus

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Again you are wrong. 600k households ( they're not all on welfare) refused to engage with IW since its inception. Last reply on the topic.

doesnt prove him wrong

cruizer101

So anyone under 34k which would include nurses and gardai on first few levels of payscale and many other entry level professional roles will get €78 extra a year or €1.50 a week while social welfare goes up €5 per week. Definitely something wrong there.

Hungrycol

I'll be €5.71 worse off* each month on my wages, never mind the hidden stealth taxes we haven't see yet. Thanks Pascal, squeezed middle squeezed some more.

*25% reduction in Mortgage Interest Relief kills any USC, TC or SRC changes.

Hitman3000

Cyrus wrote:

doesnt prove him wrong

Or right. ; )

Hitman3000

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Again you are wrong. 600k households ( they're not all on welfare) refused to engage with IW since its inception. Last reply on the topic.

I thought you meant people who protested against water charges, not those who didn't pay. As that's what you said

Hitman3000

Augeo wrote:

I thought you meant people who protested against water charges, not those who didn't pay. As that's what you said

Non payment was the more effective protest. Really have to leave it at that now. Don't want to go off topic anymore.

Donal55

A bit rich of Joan Burton to be moanin about this budget when not so long ago she was quite happy to stand over more regressive budgets.



Maybe its not hair shirt enough for her.

TheDoc

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I worked for company for many years with a guaranteed bonus. You're suggesting writing a massive loop hole into our tax law.

I start a company they give me a bonus of 80% of my annual wage when I start , tax free! The other 20% is paid monthly and isn't taxed because it's so small.

Net result 100% tax free.

I didn't claim to be a tax expert, god forbid some people with expertise in this area could work in some controls?

s3rtvdbwfj81ch

Oh my god, will Joan Burton ever learn some manners. Nobody spoke over her, but she's on there shrieking over another speaker.

Same old, same old with her.

Bob24

Kiith wrote: »

This is always something that drove me mental. I burst my bollox working for a year, get a bonus, and the government take 51% of it? As you say, bonuses up to a certain amount (10k or something like that) should be completely tax free.

This doesn’t really make sense. Your bonus is part of your income and should be taxed as such (so is mine).

If there was a 10k tax free allowance for bonuses many employers/employees would reduce monthly payments and turn them to a bonus. So eventually it would be the same as introducing a 10k tax free allowance.

Hitman3000

Sandra Noisy Sergeant wrote:

Oh my god, will Joan Burton ever learn some manners. Nobody spoke over her, but she's on there shrieking over another speaker.

Trying to be relevant, failing miserably.

TheDoc

Declan Wailing Pedicure wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

To be honest the christmas bonus causes a lot of grief. I'd imagine because the assumption is the people benefiting are life dolers and using it to what, buy more cans?

Perfectly happy knowing that some of my income tax is siphoned to the likes of a hard hit family, so parents can have Santa with young children, or even single people on hard times, so they can buy small tokens or gifts for family events, or even pay for the costs or any potential travel.

I think with stuff like this is the assumption it's being abused, but I'd imagine there is genuine cases where this is a massive help. I'd also consider young children innocent of any situation they find themselves in, so am happy to know my tax is helping in some way

draiochtanois

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NinjaTruncs

So based on my quick calculations, which I hope are correct, here is what people will get extra into their pocket per year, I'll warn you it's bleak unless you're on 40K+ or social welfare.

Jobseekers: + €260 PY
20K Worker: + €36.81 (these may have been better off just getting punched in the face)
30K worker: + €61.87 ( a mear slap for these guys)
40K worker: + €236.87 (Still not even as much as the social, which is unreal)
50K worker: + €261.87
60K worker: + €286.87
70K+ worker: + €311.87

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

James Brown

As soon as I find the unemployable ne'er-do-well who gave himself and his friends the €5 per week increase and Christmas bonus, I'll give him a piece of my mind by golly. That's money could have gone to developers!

As with everything, including the massive tax take going to private construction company's, there's gauges put in place. There is not one cent going anywhere by mistake.
Keep the plebs contented, keep the housing market in profit. Job done.
Looking to the least powerful lobby group, (those on welfare) with your complaints is a waste of time. Maybe Jimmy down the bookies has a tip?

pilly

I'm not sure why people expected any different? All of these were floated beforehand. We'll never again have the giveaway budgets of years ago.

NinjaTruncs

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

So based on my quick calculations, which I hope are correct, here is what people will get extra into their pocket per year, I'll warn you it's bleak unless you're on 40K+ or social welfare.

Jobseekers: + €260 PY
20K Worker: + €36.81 (these may have been better off just getting punched in the face)
30K worker: + €61.87 ( a mear slap for these guys)
40K worker: + €236.87 (Still not even as much as the social, which is unreal)
50K worker: + €261.87
60K worker: + €286.87
70K+ worker: + €311.87

Any self employed folk get an €200 tax credit increase too.

Donal55

No relief for those who are renting accomodation. Tax reliefs are afforded for mortfages, pensions, health , and other payments and yet possibly the largest expense for an ever increasing number of people does not merit even a mention.

Bob24

TheDoc wrote: »

To be honest the christmas bonus causes a lot of grief. I'd imagine because the assumption is the people benefiting are life dolers and using it to what, buy more cans?

Perfectly happy knowing that some of my income tax is siphoned to the likes of a hard hit family, so parents can have Santa with young children, or even single people on hard times, so they can buy small tokens or gifts for family events, or even pay for the costs or any potential travel.

I think with stuff like this is the assumption it's being abused, but I'd imagine there is genuine cases where this is a massive help. I'd also consider young children innocent of any situation they find themselves in, so am happy to know my tax is helping in some way

Maybe the should just communicate the annual figures. How it’s spread across the year shouldn’t reall matter to taxpayers. It’s more whether the total bill is increasing and by how much.

Chips Lovell

It's funny to see people milling a Fine Gael government out of it for being too generous to people on social welfare.

c6ysaphjvqw41k

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NinjaTruncs

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I completely agree, but within the context of this budget, surely someone in the cabinet had the courage to pipe up that they were giving 7 times more money to social welfare than low paid workers and that doesn't even take into consideration the christmas "bonus".

Now as someone mentioned above low paid works can get some forms of assistance but I don't know how or if they increase in line with the normal welfare rates, I would assume on a pro-rata rate but I haven't factored this into my calculation.

Quin_Dub

Instead of the €5 increase for social welfare they could have used that money to address the issue of part time work with the unemployed.

Giving out a fiver for free doesn't really solve anything.

Currently if you work any hours on a given day , you lose that full days payment so unless you are doing a full days work it's not worth your while.

It's a strong dis-incentive for people to take up work or indeed for employers to offer it..

Say a small business thinks that they might have enough business for a new employee, but aren't certain so they start with a few extra hours at peak times. Maybe 15hrs over 3/4 days during the week.

It's not worth an unemployed persons time taking that job as they'd lose 3 or 4 full days dole to earn less money in return (assuming minimum wage)

It's a strong dis-incentive for people to take up work or indeed for employers to offer it and they could have been proactive in fixing a specific employment issue rather then the usual "crumbs for everyone" approach that is taken at budget time.

Hitman3000

Baron de Charlus wrote:

It's funny to see people milling a Fine Gael government out of it for being too generous to people on social welfare.

The SW increase is the FF side of the budget. Grey vote.

JP Liz V1

What is "sugar tax" on?

Baron de Charlus

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

It's funny to see people milling a Fine Gael government out of it for being too generous to people on social welfare.

When I refer to folk on the scratch I'm not referring to carers or folk on disability payments.

VinLieger

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

What is "sugar tax" on?

Soft drinks i think

Tony EH

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Unemployment benefit runs out after 9 months.

If you're going to be a bitch about people who are less well off than you and struggling on welfare, try to get it right.

Chips Lovell

Augeo wrote: »

When I refer to folk on the scratch I'm not referring to carers or folk on disability payments.

I know.

JP Liz V1

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

What is "sugar tax" on?

https://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2018/2017/1010/911256-sugar-tax-on-soft-drinks-set-to-be-introduced-from-apri/

"Tax of 30 cent per litre on drinks with over eight grams of sugar per 100 millilitres will be introduced, along with a reduced rate of 20 cent per litre on drinks with between five and eight grams of sugar per 100 millilitres."

€0.60 on a 2L bottle of Coke, I think.

Chips Lovell

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

What is "sugar tax" on?

30 cent per litre on drinks with 8g of sugar per 100ml. A reduced rate of 20 cent per litre will apply on drinks with between 5g and 8g of sugar per 100ml.

About time I think considering the other bad stuff like booze and fags are heavily taxed.

kg703

TheDoc wrote: »

To be honest the christmas bonus causes a lot of grief. I'd imagine because the assumption is the people benefiting are life dolers and using it to what, buy more cans?

Perfectly happy knowing that some of my income tax is siphoned to the likes of a hard hit family, so parents can have Santa with young children, or even single people on hard times, so they can buy small tokens or gifts for family events, or even pay for the costs or any potential travel.

I think with stuff like this is the assumption it's being abused, but I'd imagine there is genuine cases where this is a massive help. I'd also consider young children innocent of any situation they find themselves in, so am happy to know my tax is helping in some way

I have no quarrels with hard done by people getting a dig out - everyone needs one every now and again. Pensioners and people who are (genuinely) disabled also.

However, maybe you haven't seen and heard the things I have seen? Of course there are genuine cases but I'd nearly put a bet on that a lot of the long term term unemployed are that way by choice. Not worth their while working a job for 20 grand a year and losing all their benefits(words I've heard many many times). I've seen and witnessed it first hand. They can afford to go on nights out, always a bottle of wine or cans in the fridge, smoke, have expensive class A drugs for a special occasion, a car, a few weekends away during the year, a sun holiday every couple of years etc. And then complain complain complain about how the government does nothing for them.

Explain how it's fair that a lot of my friends are all the same boat? Early thirties, earning 25k - 30k, living at home, trying to scrape for a mortgage - more than likely having to move out of Dublin when I've seen someone who hasn't worked in 6 years turn down 2 houses because they didn't 'like the area' in Dublin to be given a brand new one, in Dublin, that they can now live in for less than 100 quid a week. Theirs to live in, decorate, do as they wish etc. All on top of getting a 'heating allowance' and free healthcare by the way - lets not underestimate that. I'm one of those stuck in the middle - don't earn little enough to get a GP card, don't earn enough to afford health insurance.

I'm tired of complaining though - it's the same crap every year and the same low earning group will always be left with sweet FA and will struggle to ever be a homeowner.

I also don't receive a bonus in work - not that I'm terrible, nobody does. So I think the Xmas bonus is a little bit of a slap in the face. I also didnt know JB don't get it - so if you are long term unemployed you can have it but if you just lost your job this year, you get nothing....

Tony EH

kg703 wrote: »

However, maybe you haven't seen and heard the things I have seen? Of course there are genuine cases but I'd nearly put a bet on that a lot of the long term term unemployed are that way by choice. Not worth their while working a job for 20 grand a year and losing all their benefits(words I've heard many many times). I've seen and witnessed it first hand. They can afford to go on nights out, always a bottle of wine or cans in the fridge, smoke, have expensive class A drugs for a special occasion, a car, a few weekends away during the year, a sun holiday every couple of years etc. And then complain complain complain about how the government does nothing for them.

Why doesn't everyone do then? Sounds great.

Oh I know, cos it's bollocks.

I, too, know people who are surviving on social welfare and your little scenario doesn't fit and if it did, the whole bloody country would go on the dole and stay there.

pilly

The reasoning behind the extra payment at Christmas (I hate that it's called a bonus too, that is ridiculous) is to help people out at a very expensive time, the reason it's not give to someone who's short-term unemployed is because they may not need it as much, someone who has recently had a job may have access to savings, credit unions etc. etc.

I get why the payment is made. I think calling it a bonus is what really gets peoples backs up, on both sides of the fence.

Idbatterim

And how would you fund that?

this is asked constantly, simple, no welfare increases for several years. Thats it! I believe the welfare package is worth E450,000,000, income tax cuts are what? E350,000,000?

Idbatterim

PokeHerKing wrote: »

But do people on the scratcher even vote..?

they absolutely dont vote for FG, which makes this disgrace even more bewildering. From what I read, it was FG, FG that wanted across the board welfare increases, allegedly FF werent too pushed on dole increases!

Idbatterim

BoatMad wrote: »

Blame that on FF.

see my above post...

to say I am disgusted is an understatement and I know many of you feel the same way that I do. Renua are currently the only party who are prepared to fight for the workers it seems. I hope to god FG have actually handed them votes. Youd wonder from a Renua perspective, would running on a campaign of no welfare increases and simply income tax cuts be far more effective than the usual policy of all the parties, which is alienate no one. Because I am sick of it personally...

pilly

You're all forgetting the grey vote lads. In all your jumping up and down about the extra €5, it's there to keep the oldies happy, same with the change in the prescription fee. They're the ones that vote.

They just couldn't make it so obvious that it was all about the grey vote so they gave it to everyone.

Idbatterim

You're all forgetting the grey vote lads. In all your jumping up and down about the extra €5, it's there to keep the oldies happy, same with the change in the prescription fee. They're the ones that vote.

They just couldn't make it so obvious that it was all about the grey vote so they gave it to everyone.

the thing is you are right about the grey vote, as much of a moral disgrace as it is. I get why they do it politically, then thing is though, leave it at the grey vote and maybe carers etc , if indeed that payment is too meagre.

Why bother going after the dole? although one reason is after their botched election campaign with " a recovery for everyone" when many hadnt felt it and many will actually be worse off progressively, inflation particularly on the accommodation front in dublin will wipe out a massive multiple of any of the pittance they have thrown back to workers...

Idbatterim

pilly wrote: »

You're all forgetting the grey vote lads. In all your jumping up and down about the extra €5, it's there to keep the oldies happy, same with the change in the prescription fee. They're the ones that vote.

They just couldn't make it so obvious that it was all about the grey vote so they gave it to everyone.

that is a good way of looking at it. Its a big problem with this current scenario. I feel that knowing an election could be any time, will seek them to ramp up welfare more than would have been the case at the detriment to everyone in my opinion...