Budget 2018 - Mod note in post #1

The Specialist

Can't agree with the SW increase at all - why make it even more attractive? Reforms are needed to wipe the long term parasites out of the system, not throwing more money at them FFS.

VinLieger

pilly wrote: »

You're all forgetting the grey vote lads. In all your jumping up and down about the extra €5, it's there to keep the oldies happy, same with the change in the prescription fee. They're the ones that vote.

They just couldn't make it so obvious that it was all about the grey vote so they gave it to everyone.

Indeed just more kicking the can down the road on this issue, each older generation is just pulling the ladder up that tiny bit further for the following one when they refuse to sit down and logically discuss the broken state pension or increasing the retirement age.

It will come to a head one day when the money runs out but the current oldies will be long dead by then so what do they care?

Chips Lovell

Rate of unemployment has been plummeting of late and we're now nearing full employment again. I doubt an extra €5 a month is going to lure people on to the dole queues.

titan18

Tony EH wrote:

Oh I know, cos it's bollocks.

Do you not find it weird that several different people know of that and similar scenarios happening.

2 of my cousins have got houses on social welfare. One of them got a newly built house just to make it better. Single mothers of course, even though one is living with the father and they've been together years.

On the other hand, I work extremely hard and nowhere close to affording a house.

Hitman3000

Baron de Charlus wrote:

Rate of unemployment has been plummeting of late and we're now nearing full employment again. I doubt an extra €5 a month is going to lure people on to the dole queues.

According to some here it's a life of sun holidays, class A drugs and fridges full of beer and wine. What's not to like and an extra 72 cent a day, must submit my notice.

James Brown

titan18 wrote: »

Do you not find it weird that several different people know of that and similar scenarios happening.

2 of my cousins have got houses on social welfare. One of them got a newly built house just to make it better. Single mothers of course, even though one is living with the father and they've been together years.

On the other hand, I work extremely hard and nowhere close to affording a house.

You should contact your local TD/Councillor. It's supposed to be based on need.

TheDoc

Donal55 wrote: »

No relief for those who are renting accomodation. Tax reliefs are afforded for mortfages, pensions, health , and other payments and yet possibly the largest expense for an ever increasing number of people does not merit even a mention.

In fairness it would be crippling financially offering any sort of rent relief, for working people.

Then you get into the creation of brackets where certain people get it, and then you create a whole new divide of us vs them.

Then you would have people like me freaked, having grinded it through that market in the recession with no help from government or anyone, to see rent allowance for working people?

Yeah it's ****, I totally empathise with anyone in the rental market, I'm blessed I got out when I did, but I think thats a step to far expecting or advocating some form of rent allowance for people in work?

swimming in a sea

Quick question on the electric car BIK break. Does this mean the executive with his BMW that only does 10,000KM a year and pays top rate of BIK can swap in for a Tesla and pay no BIK at all? (apologies if i've got this all wrong but I've not had a chance to fully read up on it.)

James Brown

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

As I understand it, they get what's deemed enough to live on, which explains the Christmas bonus. Also didn't we have a government drive to tackle any fraud? With employment being so high and the amount of tax payer money going towards the building and homeless industry (landlords/B&B's/hotels), this fiver a week, which also goes to pensioners and the sick etc. is an odd one to get het up about.

The Specialist

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Rate of unemployment has been plummeting of late and we're now nearing full employment again. I doubt an extra €5 a month is going to lure people on to the dole queues.

Maybe not lure but it's a nice little bump for the long term ****ers that don't want to work. It's not 2008 anymore and there are loads of jobs now - the problem with half of those on the welfare is they are well able to work but won't do menial jobs.

TheDoc

Declan Wailing Pedicure wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Oh yeah agree on that point, that I don't see why the bonus is excluded from those on temporary hard times.

OMD

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

So based on my quick calculations, which I hope are correct, here is what people will get extra into their pocket per year, I'll warn you it's bleak unless you're on 40K+ or social welfare.

Jobseekers: + €260 PY
20K Worker: + €36.81 (these may have been better off just getting punched in the face)
30K worker: + €61.87 ( a mear slap for these guys)
40K worker: + €236.87 (Still not even as much as the social, which is unreal)
50K worker: + €261.87
60K worker: + €286.87
70K+ worker: + €311.87

You are looking at tax and welfare reforms only which is an incorrect way to look at it.

For example minimum wage is going up by 30c an hour which means the low paid worker (working full time) will get an extra €600 a year. Most workers can expect pay rises of the order of 2-2.5% next year meaning the majority of workers can expect to be well over €700 better off next year.

Those on welfare can only expect the increase announced in the budget so far from those on welfare faring too well, the gap between those on welfare and those working is increasing not narrowing.

TheDoc

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

30 cent per litre on drinks with 8g of sugar per 100ml. A reduced rate of 20 cent per litre will apply on drinks with between 5g and 8g of sugar per 100ml.

About time I think considering the other bad stuff like booze and fags are heavily taxed.

Interested to see how this pans out, when you consider a lot of mainstream fizzy drinks have a sugar free alternative. IF they are left alone then I'll accept it as good intentioned in terms of health

If I see something brought in to snatch tax of sugar free drinks, then I'll know its another filthy money grabbing tax

elperello

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

30 cent per litre on drinks with 8g of sugar per 100ml. A reduced rate of 20 cent per litre will apply on drinks with between 5g and 8g of sugar per 100ml.

About time I think considering the other bad stuff like booze and fags are heavily taxed.

Booze is not bad stuff.

The craft of the brewer.
The skill of the winemaker.
The genius of the distiller.

Hitman3000

I see figures for Leo's 'dept of spin' has been released today even though Leo said it would be cost neutral. So 5 million euro to tell us how

great Leo and FG are. Value for money there.

NinjaTruncs

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Rate of unemployment has been plummeting of late and we're now nearing full employment again. I doubt an extra €5 a month is going to lure people on to the dole queues.

Indeed not, but we need to make it worthwhile for someone to leave the social and take up a job. If you were weighing up taking a minimum wage job where I need to graft for 5 days a week vs continuing to sit on your arse for those 5 days, unless there is a significant enough difference in what you take home you're not going to be pushed to get a job.

When jobs are plentiful the rate of jobseekers should drop to encourage people to get jobs. Otherwise what happens is when there are jobs the rate goes up as there is less demand and it's seen as the government can afford it, but when the **** hits the fan the rate needs to be cut as there isn't the finances to meet the demand and the new higher rate.

And don't forget we're still running with a significant deficit, so we're borrowing money to fund this increase. I'd have prefered no tax cuts and no increases in welfare rates, but that was never going to happen.

pilly

TheDoc wrote: »

In fairness it would be crippling financially offering any sort of rent relief, for working people.

Then you get into the creation of brackets where certain people get it, and then you create a whole new divide of us vs them.

Then you would have people like me freaked, having grinded it through that market in the recession with no help from government or anyone, to see rent allowance for working people?

Yeah it's ****, I totally empathise with anyone in the rental market, I'm blessed I got out when I did, but I think thats a step to far expecting or advocating some form of rent allowance for people in work?

There used to be a tax credit for paying rent and no-one ever kicked off about then, why would they? Anyone with a mortgage gets tax credit, same thing.

The only people at a disadvantage are those who've bought their houses for cash who don't really need a tax credit now do they?

TheDoc

kg703 wrote: »

I have no quarrels with hard done by people getting a dig out - everyone needs one every now and again. Pensioners and people who are (genuinely) disabled also.

Think you are safe with any conversation on this topic, we all assume people arn't taking issue with the disabled or pensions or those with extreme health issues

However, maybe you haven't seen and heard the things I have seen? Of course there are genuine cases but I'd nearly put a bet on that a lot of the long term term unemployed are that way by choice.

Heard all the stories, know people who were double jobbing, cheeky cash in hand while getting the dole, know all the stereotypes, know all the myths and all the realities.

Not worth their while working a job for 20 grand a year and losing all their benefits(words I've heard many many times). I've seen and witnessed it first hand.

I know what your talking about. And you dont wonder who are the actual fools or "uneducated" in this situation. If I had less of a work ethic and pride in myself, there was definitely a point in time a life on the dole was better for me and my family financially then me working.

They can afford to go on nights out, always a bottle of wine or cans in the fridge, smoke, have expensive class A drugs for a special occasion, a car, a few weekends away during the year, a sun holiday every couple of years etc. And then complain complain complain about how the government does nothing for them.

It should probably be pointed out a myth with this, is that these people life this lifestyle entirely of benefit. What is typically forgotten is these people typically actually work jobs or nixers or do something for cash supplement. Sorry but you are not going on sun holidays while on social welfare, the maths has never, and will never, add up to provide that.

Explain how it's fair that a lot of my friends are all the same boat? Early thirties, earning 25k - 30k, living at home, trying to scrape for a mortgage - more than likely having to move out of Dublin when I've seen someone who hasn't worked in 6 years turn down 2 houses because they didn't 'like the area' in Dublin to be given a brand new one, in Dublin, that they can now live in for less than 100 quid a week. Theirs to live in, decorate, do as they wish etc. All on top of getting a 'heating allowance' and free healthcare by the way - lets not underestimate that. I'm one of those stuck in the middle - don't earn little enough to get a GP card, don't earn enough to afford health insurance.

I'm not advocating it's fair. I know it's unfair. But then there should be some proper thought into how big a problem this actually is. Varadker came out with his big "tackle of welfare fraud" and then people both current and former from Social welfare outlining its not actually a big a problem, and the figures potentially saved are a bit pie in the sky stuff. I've a family member who is a high ranking civil servant in social welfare fraud investigation department, and while I hear all the stories and know stuff happens, she would always outline "but its nothing like you hear from people, its not rampant" and I've no reason to believe it is. We like to have this idea in our head there is some class of society living of our backs laughing all the way to Majorca four times a year driving around in a nice car they park in their free house.

Sure its crap there are people that do that, and there 100% is, but then I just look around my job, where there are absolute wasters. Brutal. They have some histrionics or something from way back when that means they just don't leave or can't be let go, and just bumble their way through each day causing me an absolute nightmare. I equate it the same way. There are slackers and wasters in every walk of life.

Important thing I always say to friends who complain on this line, is that they arn't hampering you achieving what you want. People scrounging welfare is not the reason you cant buy a house, or your friends are living at home, or why someone earns sub 30k. It's crap to see, but it has no bearing on your actual circumstance.

Tony EH

pilly wrote: »

The reasoning behind the extra payment at Christmas (I hate that it's called a bonus too, that is ridiculous) is to help people out at a very expensive time, the reason it's not give to someone who's short-term unemployed is because they may not need it as much, someone who has recently had a job may have access to savings, credit unions etc. etc.

I get why the payment is made. I think calling it a bonus is what really gets peoples backs up, on both sides of the fence.

It certainly could do with a "rebranding", that's for sure.

But, let's be honest here, there are people would bitch and moan about it no matter what. They bitch and moan about the dole, even if the Christmas bonus didn't even exist.

Everyone's on it's having a great time don't ya know!

I might quit the job and go on it myself next year. It sounds brilliant.

TheDoc

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Rate of unemployment has been plummeting of late and we're now nearing full employment again. I doubt an extra €5 a month is going to lure people on to the dole queues.

Caveats to those figures is the % of the workforce who are actually Irish. There is an extreme fuzzyness of the numbers when its broken down.

I was reading a research paper recently that was focusing on IT which is where I work, and even though I look around my office and probably should know it, it was still "wow" to learn the % of foreign EU workers here employed compared to actual Irish people.

pilly

TheDoc wrote: »

Caveats to those figures is the % of the workforce who are actually Irish. There is an extreme fuzzyness of the numbers when its broken down.

I was reading a research paper recently that was focusing on IT which is where I work, and even though I look around my office and probably should know it, it was still "wow" to learn the % of foreign EU workers here employed compared to actual Irish people.

What on earth has that got to do with it?

James Brown

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

Indeed not, but we need to make it worthwhile for someone to leave the social and take up a job. If you were weighing up taking a minimum wage job where I need to graft for 5 days a week vs continuing to sit on your arse for those 5 days, unless there is a significant enough difference in what you take home you're not going to be pushed to get a job.

When jobs are plentiful the rate of jobseekers should drop to encourage people to get jobs. Otherwise what happens is when there are jobs the rate goes up as there is less demand and it's seen as the government can afford it, but when the **** hits the fan the rate needs to be cut as there isn't the finances to meet the demand and the new higher rate.

And don't forget we're still running with a significant deficit, so we're borrowing money to fund this increase. I'd have prefered no tax cuts and no increases in welfare rates, but that was never going to happen.

How about increasing wages? Surely the dole is the bare bones required as is? Also do they not have checks and balances in place to find these people who choose not to work? We're spending money to keep property prices high and subsidise rent for the people who can't afford it. That's more of a concern to me.

TheDoc

pilly wrote: »

There used to be a tax credit for paying rent and no-one ever kicked off about then, why would they? Anyone with a mortgage gets tax credit, same thing.

The only people at a disadvantage are those who've bought their houses for cash who don't really need a tax credit now do they?

Until the government actually cop themselves on and realise they are part of the problem, and stop stupidly believing "the market" will sort it all out, they won't behave or read the situation as anything to do with them, or something they need to intervene with in terms of assistance.

A certain aspect of the government sees this as a positive, as a signal to the economy recovering greatly and strongly. House prices rising, rent rising and employment rising.

As I mentioned in a previous post, there is an adult conversation to be had about the % breakdown of our employment numbers, Irish vs EU/Foreign, especially in Dublin and in regards to certain sectors, who get hired on high salaried positions and the knock on effect is driving up the prices of accommodation and housing and the general cost of living.

TheDoc

pilly wrote: »

What on earth has that got to do with it?

The initial assumption from most people when they would read about employment figures is that it's regarding Irish workers, when in fact the high level numbers are a total.

When you drill down into the finer numbers you start to realise there is large disparities between Irish vs EU workers.

I think at some point it will become a topic of conversation, based on the knock on effects it has to both the local and larger regional economies.

To be clear, should you assume I'm going down that path, I'm very much in support of the freedom of labour and competitiveness in the labour market, but I think it's important that data is properly reflected and challenged accordingly, instead of left idle and taken at face value when trotted out by Fine Gael for example claiming credit for a recovery they had little to nothing to do with, and then pointing to various data as "evidence"of strong growth and recovery but not being transparent with the underlying drivers of that data and figures.

Chips Lovell

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

Indeed not, but we need to make it worthwhile for someone to leave the social and take up a job.

And all the evidence points to that that incentive being there, i.e. when the jobs are there, people will take them.

Full employment for Ireland is regarded as being somewhere between 5 and 6 percent. During the boom we were running below that, between 4 and 5 at the height of it. We're now back down to 6.1 percent, so not far off it again.

Tony EH

titan18 wrote: »

Do you not find it weird that several different people know of that and similar scenarios happening.

2 of my cousins have got houses on social welfare. One of them got a newly built house just to make it better. Single mothers of course, even though one is living with the father and they've been together years.

On the other hand, I work extremely hard and nowhere close to affording a house.

Free gaffs and all, sure what are doing? Quit the job, go on the dole.

Here's an alternative to your "2 cousins", a few friends of mine have had to leave the country for the second time in their lives, because they couldn't stay in the country of their birth when they lost their jobs. They're stuck in some mickey mouse place in England...again...in their 40's.

They didn't get the glorious dole life some are so desperate to portray on here.

99% of people who find themselves on the dole, do so because of circumstance, not choice, and being forced to eek out an existence on the dole is NOT an enviable position.

titan18

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You should contact your local TD/Councillor. It's supposed to be based on need.

Ha, what cuckoo land are you living in. Coucillors are just a waste of air, and some of the TDs helped get them those houses. It's based on who you know and how loud you complain.

titan18

Tony EH wrote: »

Free gaffs and all, sure what are doing? Quit the job, go on the dole.

Here's an alternative to your "2 cousins", a few friends of mine have had to leave the country for the second time in their lives, because they couldn't stay in the country of their birth when they lost their jobs. They're stuck in some mickey mouse place in England...again...in their 40's.

They didn't get the glorious dole life some are so desperate to portray on here.

99% of people who find themselves on the dole, do so because of circumstance, not choice, and being forced to eek out an existence on the dole is NOT an enviable position.

Anecdotally here, but I'm sure you'll find a lot of others with similar stories, but 100% of the people I know on the dole are on it out of choice.

Hitman3000

titan18 wrote:

Anecdotally here, but I'm sure you'll find a lot of others with similar stories, but 100% of the people I know on the dole are on it out of choice.

They told you this was their choice?

Quin_Dub

All - Let's move on from the "Dole Scroungers" discussion please.

Everyone has their opinions that are unlikely to change , so going round and round here is a waste of everyones time.

Thanks

pilly

TheDoc wrote: »

The initial assumption from most people when they would read about employment figures is that it's regarding Irish workers, when in fact the high level numbers are a total.

When you drill down into the finer numbers you start to realise there is large disparities between Irish vs EU workers.

I think at some point it will become a topic of conversation, based on the knock on effects it has to both the local and larger regional economies.

To be clear, should you assume I'm going down that path, I'm very much in support of the freedom of labour and competitiveness in the labour market, but I think it's important that data is properly reflected and challenged accordingly, instead of left idle and taken at face value when trotted out by Fine Gael for example claiming credit for a recovery they had little to nothing to do with, and then pointing to various data as "evidence"of strong growth and recovery but not being transparent with the underlying drivers of that data and figures.

I really don't get what you're trying to say, I'm not being obtuse here.

The unemployment figures are the unemployment figures whatever way you look at it.

The people on long term unemployment for example wouldn't ever be filling the high level posts you're talking about so I don't know what your point is.

Tony EH

TheDoc wrote: »

Caveats to those figures is the % of the workforce who are actually Irish. There is an extreme fuzzyness of the numbers when its broken down.

That caveat doesn't really matter, but yes there is an "extreme fuzzyness" to how the numbers are broken down.

However, what DOES matter is that too many of these jobs are low paid and of a temporary nature. So, while people are getting back into the workforce, they're doing so in a short term contract capacity and for buttons and then find themselves back on the dole.

There's more than a few people that I know who lost their permanent (relatively) well paying jobs and have been in a short term contract loop for ages now and prospects aren't that great.

Necro

Hitman3000 wrote:

I see figures for Leo's 'dept of spin' has been released today even though Leo said it would be cost neutral. So 5 million euro to tell us how

Don't get me started on this. Pulled a whole section out of the PSO in Sligo and moved it back to Dublin for his hype train. So much for decentralisation.

enricoh

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

So based on my quick calculations, which I hope are correct, here is what people will get extra into their pocket per year, I'll warn you it's bleak unless you're on 40K+ or social welfare.

Jobseekers: + €260 PY
20K Worker: + €36.81 (these may have been better off just getting punched in the face)
30K worker: + €61.87 ( a mear slap for these guys)
40K worker: + €236.87 (Still not even as much as the social, which is unreal)
50K worker: + €261.87
60K worker: + €286.87
70K+ worker: + €311.87

And the government tells us they want to look after the people who get up early in the morning, go to work and pay the taxes that pay for everything!

ongarite

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Rate of unemployment has been plummeting of late and we're now nearing full employment again. I doubt an extra €5 a month is going to lure people on to the dole queues.

Last time we had full employment we we running with huge budget surpluses and now at near same levels we are still running deficits.
Money seems to be disappearing down a black hole with infrastructure needing massive investment after a decade of stagnation.

Chips Lovell

It ain't a black hole. It's all there in black and white. We're still paying down debt for fixing the mess we got ourselves into. That's the big difference between then and now.

TheDoc

pilly wrote: »

I really don't get what you're trying to say, I'm not being obtuse here.

The unemployment figures are the unemployment figures whatever way you look at it.

The people on long term unemployment for example wouldn't ever be filling the high level posts you're talking about so I don't know what your point is.

Sorry was responding to this post

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104928370&postcount=154

In a way trying to convey(obviously in a poor way) that while the headline figures have us nearly reaching full employment and unemployment dropping there is health checks with those figures regarding

• Ratio between Irish vs EU worker allocation
• Ratio between fulltime roles and contract/short term employment
• Ratio between salaried positions and minimum wage/low paying positions

Somewhat what you and the next poster after you highlighted better then I did.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Idbatterim

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

id be going further than that over several budgets, one or two more bands and no rate higher than 45% absolute max. Id be using increases in LPT and other land based taxes. Potentially ramping up the reduce vat rate for hospitality and no welfare increases to pay for it...

boardsuser1

Looks like i've alot of catching up to do on this thread.

Idbatterim

Look like i've alot of catching up to do on this thread.

Biggest piss take of a budget I have ever witnessed! after all of fg bluster recently about the tax payer and the extortionate marginal rate :rolleyes:

Hitman3000

Idbatterim wrote:

Biggest piss take of a budget I have ever witnessed! after all of fg bluster recently about the tax payer and the extortionate marginal rate

Every little helps. ; )

boardsuser1

Idbatterim wrote: »

Biggest piss take of a budget I have ever witnessed! after all of fg bluster recently about the tax payer and the extortionate marginal rate :rolleyes:

Let me guess, the gap between the unemployed and employed is bigger thus making it more attractive not to work?

Idbatterim

Cork Truck Driver wrote: »

Let me guess, the gap between the unemployed and employed is bigger thus making it more attractive not to work?

I think this says it all!

Jobseekers: + €260 PY
20K Worker: + €36.81
30K worker: + €61.87
40K worker: + €236.87
50K worker: + €261.87
60K worker: + €286.87
70K+ worker: + €311.87

Hitman3000

Idbatterim wrote:

I think this says it all!

It doesn't actually. Single worker on 40k versus single social welfare recipient on JSA of 10k not hard to work out who is better off even after deductions.

Chips Lovell

TheDoc wrote: »

In a way trying to convey(obviously in a poor way) that while the headline figures have us nearly reaching full employment and unemployment dropping there is health checks with those figures regarding

• Ratio between Irish vs EU worker allocation
• Ratio between fulltime roles and contract/short term employment
• Ratio between salaried positions and minimum wage/low paying positions

If you're trying to argue that the falling unemployment rate is largely down to the an increase in the proportion of EU workers, you'd be wrong. The total number of people on the Live Register has more than halved from its peak in 2011 to today, a period during which the unemployment rate fell from around 15 percent to 6 percent. So while additional workers entering the economy did play a small part, the vast majority of the fall is accounted for by people who were unemployed leaving the Live Register and re-entering employment.

Are they earning less? Average weekly earnings have increased from around €688 to €722 in the same period.

ricero

Some rant by boyd barrett here

jooksavage

I've read in a few places that Michael Creed has said that the 2% to 6% hike in stamp duty will not apply to farms - is this correct?

VinLieger

ricero wrote: »

Some rant by boyd barrett here

How many times has he tripped over his words due to his outrage being set to 11?

pilly

ricero wrote:

Some rant by boyd barrett here

What was he ranting about?