Why are we not collecting Apple tax money?

ChikiChiki

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-apple-taxavoidance-court/eu-takes-ireland-to-court-for-not-claiming-apple-tax-windfall-idUSKCN1C913I

http://news.sky.com/story/eu-to-take-ireland-to-court-over-13bn-illegal-state-aid-for-apple-11066682

http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/04/technology/apple-ireland-eu-tax-ruling/index.html

Lets just take a look at these articles for a minute. Why are we not collecting this money when we should be?

We need the money to invest in our infrastructure and services. Its disgusting the stance our Govt is taking on this.

me_irl

Doesn't fall far from the tree...wha? Y'know? Ha? Well?

job seeker

Welcome to Ireland. Where we screw Irish citizens on tax, but are to foolish not to take it from companies who are worth millions.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

For a start, it's not yet (and may never be) our money to spend on anything. They have to appoint fund managers to set up an Escrow account and then manage the money until the European Court of Justice addresses whose money it is.

DaeryssaOne

Because they technically did nothing wrong, so if we were to suddenly start demanding money from them, it would have to be the same for every other large multinational hq'd in Ireland and suddenly there would be nobody left here to provide jobs...

sjb25

ChikiChiki wrote: »

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-apple-taxavoidance-court/eu-takes-ireland-to-court-for-not-claiming-apple-tax-windfall-idUSKCN1C913I

http://news.sky.com/story/eu-to-take-ireland-to-court-over-13bn-illegal-state-aid-for-apple-11066682

http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/04/technology/apple-ireland-eu-tax-ruling/index.html

Lets just take a look at these articles for a minute. Why are we not collecting this money when we should be?

We need the money to invest in our infrastructure and services. Its disgusting the stance our Govt is taking on this.

Ah sure look it!
Grand bunch of lads them Apple lads

...And Justice

It would be a serious stupid move to take that money and the government know it.

uch

I'll mind it, it can be just resting in my account

brevity

Give everyone in Ireland a free iPhone X - be grand.

256GB. Don't be cheap now.

VinLieger

Because we don't want it as in the governments opinion we didn't do anything wrong.

By collecting it we potentially lose future investments from Apple that they may have been planning that would ultimately help the country far more in the long run than what will ultimately only be a portion of the 13Bn.

Its a case of do we want a small amount now or much more in the long term?

begbysback

If we demand the money then they will take their business elsewhere, then there would be no apples in the grocers.

ChikiChiki

jobr wrote: »

Because they technically did nothing wrong, so if we were to suddenly start demanding money from them, it would have to be the same for every other large multinational hq'd in Ireland and suddenly there would be nobody left here to provide jobs...

Yes, but they should at least meet the 12.5% obligation which would still be miles off our EU competition. A lot of MNC's have deals and are not. Its plain wrong.

Skihunta13

Alena Gorgeous Doorbell wrote: »

For a start, it's not yet (and may never be) our money to spend on anything. They have to appoint fund managers to set up an Escrow account and then manage the money until the European Court of Justice addresses whose money it is.

How much will this cost the government.?

DaeryssaOne

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Yes, but they should at least meet the 12.5% obligation which would still be miles off our EU competition. A lot of MNC's have deals and are not. Its plain wrong.

Fair enough but it's the Irish government who made these tax rules and Apple just played them to their best advantage. Why should they decide to pay over and above what they legally owe which happens to be far less than their PBT*12.5%

SEPT 23 1989

three grand for every citizen in the state

ChikiChiki

jobr wrote: »

Fair enough but it's the Irish government who made these tax rules and Apple just played them to their best advantage. Why should they decide to pay over and above what they legally owe which happens to be far less than their PBT*12.5%

I have a real issue with companies like Apple being given such tax advantages when my auld boy was put to work for an 30 hours plus a week to collect an extra E50 on top his dole.

The man worked and paid taxes from 18 until the crash for 42 years. Anway he is gone now and yes I firmly point the finger at Dept of Social protection and the Govt for the humilation that led to his demise.

I understand economics but Ireland needs to look after citizens first.

brainfreeze

The Governments reason: Because if we do they will move somewhere else.

It will set a precedent, and then it will open up a can of worms for the other multinationals to pay us in back taxes.

"Great", you think. "What's wrong with getting money we are owed!?".

If Apple (and others) thought they would have to pay Ireland 15.3 billion in taxes, they wouldn't be here in the first place. If all these companies are forced to pay, then they will move as we are no longer worth it for them. Getting tax cuts is why they are here. Remove that and we become unattractive compared to other nations.

"So what are we getting out of it?"

Jobs. They still have to hire people and pay them, and that money goes into our economy. We'd rather undercut in taxes and stimulate our economy via employment, than getting nothing at all. Apart from perhaps Intercom, all the "big boys" in Ireland tech industry are foreign multinationals. Because of them, we have the second largest high end tech services jobs in the EU, second only to Finland. 4.3% of all Jobs in Ireland.

They go, we lose 140,000 jobs, and we've no way to replace them or the income they generate.

That's Irelands current stance. They are not trying to turn away free money, they are trying to make sure we retain and create future jobs in the tech sector. Turning down billions in a lump sum looks like small fries when you then destroy over a hundred thousand jobs and then lose our #2 status in the EU for said tech jobs. Irelands stance is that it isn't worth it.

Tayschren

We are not collecting this because its not ours! We made agreements however generous with Apple in order to have them make Ireland their European base. If we turn around tomorrow and say" we know we said this but we actually mean this" then we loose more than one multinational and Brussels (ze germans) gets what it wants.

If you are a sinn fein economist then of course we should go get our 13bn

murpho999

Collect the taxes and then every other company in Ireland is liable as well and they all pull out and we lose jobs.

People forget that companies here on low tax, also boost the economy in terms of jobs, ancillary services, VAT etc. it's not just about the corporation tax.

AlanG

Ireland has been asked to collect the money on behalf of yet to be determined tax authorities - so we piss of our multinational investors for possibly no gain to Ireland. The government would be mad to collect the money until all appeals are finished. Control of our taxes is one of the powers the EU is not supposed to have taken so they brought this ruling under competition law. We haven't given control of tax to the EU so why should we do what they say.

Cordell

Only a fraction of those moneys are actually tax saved in Ireland, almost all amount is made from tax savings in other countries which may want now a piece of the pie.
There was an agreement between Ireland and Apple, Ireland has to honor its agreements.
It's a gross intrusion from EU, with retrospective effects.

It will cost us more to collect the moneys than they are worth.

I did a lot of work for one of the big american multinationals here.

The company I was working for probably supported a couple of thousand jobs a year (directly employed & indirect) or about the last 20 to 25 years. Thats been a LOT of regular steady tax income for the state.


Its important not to kill the golden goose as we try to throttle every last golden egg out of it.

nice_guy80

think of the pay rises we could give to the train drivers in CIE!

Wheeliebin30

Jesus christ apple paid 12.5% tax here!

It did nothing wrong with Ireland!

We are been asked to collect tax for other countries, let them do it themselves!

Do people actually read the facts first?

Will someone collect money I'm owed by a lad around the corner please, but you won't get anything for doing it for me.

Good boy run along now.

For once the Irish government is showing balls but people have to whinge.

Straight from the sinn fein and left idiocy.

Mr.H

And how many people in Ireland work for apple?

I'd safely bet it's not 13bn worth

A load of Tosh being spouted that we will lose out in the long term.

The only reason keeping apple happy is Ireland's portfolio looks better to other companies who see we have apple doing business here. Meanwhile we screw home grown companies on tax.

Zebra3

Maybe we should start paying MNC for being here!!

Oh wait....

Markcheese

The corporation tax money collected from Apple (or not collected) has relatively little to do with the several thousand people employed by Apple in Cork...
One is a (legal) tax avoidance vehicle, in a solicitors/accountants office somewhere in Ireland that would and could change country in the morning, if it's financially worth it..
. The other is physical buildings, employed staff, infrastructure, an asset. Etc. It'd would change country too, if it was worthwhile it... But that'd be a long expensive process...
. . But you don't want to jeopardise the second by pissing off head office..
. . When you exhaust the legal avenues the billions will come to you anyway, without risking the employment side.. 😀

the_syco

ChikiChiki wrote: »

We need the money to invest in our infrastructure and services. Its disgusting the stance our Govt is taking on this.

AFAIK, WE WILL NOT GET THE MONEY ! ! !

The EU wants us to collect the money, and to then give said money to the EU.

The EU will be the only winners. Ireland may also lose Apple.

VinLieger

Mr.H wrote: »

And how many people in Ireland work for apple?

I'd safely bet it's not 13bn worth

A load of Tosh being spouted that we will lose out in the long term.

The only reason keeping apple happy is Ireland's portfolio looks better to other companies who see we have apple doing business here. Meanwhile we screw home grown companies on tax.

Nobodies saying apple by itself is worth 134bn but the 140,000 employed by multinational corps who might start questioning is there any point staying here if we do collect certainly is worth that much and a hell of a lot more in the long term.

Mr.H

Has anyone seen anything tangible that suggests apple paid 12%?

Because the European board say they paid as little as 0.055%

Mr.H

VinLieger wrote:

Nobodies saying apple by itself is worth 134bn but the 140,000 employed by multinational corps who might start questioning is there any point staying here if we do collect certainly is worth that much and a hell of a lot more in the long term.

Have we learnt nothing from relying on these firms in the past?

Companies like dell were responsible for off shoots that cost 100 thousand jobs alone.

We don't need these firms that cost more than they generate. Ireland is no better now than it was before dell

Wheeliebin30

Mr.H wrote: »

Has anyone seen anything tangible that suggests apple paid 12%?

Because the European board say they paid as little as 0.055%

Pure ignorance.

Apple paid 12.5% in Ireland.

Other countries are saying they only paid a fraction of the profits made in other countries through a head office in Ireland.

It's not our problem it's the other countries, let them do something about it.

Apple owe nothing to Ireland in unpaid taxes.

People are so ignorant to actually bother reading the facts.

Infini

The whole issue with this is that the whole state aid thing is up for debate big time. Sure its alot of money but the interpretation of the rules then and now seems to be the core issue. The problem is those multinationals who basically gamed the system legally for years are under fire from other countries because of the whole tax avoidance issue both in Europe and North America. It's partially due to getting back taxes to be fair. The problem though with the commission is that they're being extremely vindictive and insisting they're right even though the case is still playing out. It also feels that the goalpost's are being moved in the interpretations to suit one anothers side.

The other problem they seem to forget is that they want Ireland to collect a colossal amount of debatable tax which isn't even certain to be tax. It's far higher than any other judgement as well so I wouldn't be surprised if there's logistical issues about the whole thing.

TheChizler

Mr.H wrote: »

Has anyone seen anything tangible that suggests apple paid 12%?

Because the European board say they paid as little as 0.055%

They paid 12.5% to Revenue on profits from Irish sales, nothing to Revenue on profits from European sales. The tiny percentage is a number obtained by averaging a small number of 12.5% profit and a lot of 0% profit. It's a good stat to convince the public that some tiny rate was agreed between the Irish government and Apple but is meaningless when talking about the Irish obligations.

Mr.H

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

Apple owe nothing to Ireland in unpaid taxes.

They have their office here therefore it is up to us to collect the tax

You my friend are the one being ignorant

Ipso

Mr.H wrote: »

Have we learnt nothing from relying on these firms in the past?

Companies like dell were responsible for off shoots that cost 100 thousand jobs alone.

We don't need these firms that cost more than they generate. Ireland is no better now than it was before dell

How so?

Mr.H

TheChizler wrote:

They paid 12.5% to Revenue on profits from Irish sales, nothing to Revenue on profits from European sales. The tiny percentage is a number obtained by averaging a small number of 12.5% profit and a lot of 0% profit. It's a good stat to convince the public that some tiny rate was agreed between the Irish government and Apple but is meaningless when talking about the Irish obligations.

But we still allowed them to not pay tax which they should have.

I'm no way in the camp of "it's our money". I do however believe that it was our responsibility just as it was Belgium and Luxemburg's responsibilities with other companies.

We can't hide from this.

If apple don't pay the Ireland coups be forced to. That is my concern. Then it's really about can we afford 13bn?

VinLieger

Mr.H wrote: »

Have we learnt nothing from relying on these firms in the past?

Companies like dell were responsible for off shoots that cost 100 thousand jobs alone.

We don't need these firms that cost more than they generate. Ireland is no better now than it was before dell

Okay whats your alternative? Also wheres your proof they cost more than they generate?

Wheeliebin30

Mr.H wrote: »

They have their office here therefore it is up to us to collect the tax

You my friend are the one being ignorant

Where is this office you and other country's speak of?

Mr.H

Ipso wrote:

How so?

They gave people a false sense of financial security. We have more people in debt because they relied on these jobs that they were told were long term.

I don't mean they literally cost us more but they certainly milked our low tax unto they moved on to a low labour region instead.

Our nation was in less debt on a populous level before dell

Cordell

Mr.H wrote: »

Have we learnt nothing from relying on these firms in the past?

Companies like dell were responsible for off shoots that cost 100 thousand jobs alone.

We don't need these firms that cost more than they generate. Ireland is no better now than it was before dell

There are Irish grown companies that do exactly what Dell did, they offshore low value add jobs, and sometimes even R&D, to low cost location. We need not to cry after Dell, but look forward to the next FDI that will generate jobs and keep the economy going. And if that means fighting the EU alongside them, then so be it.

iHungry

I think we should take the money. We need to get rid of the likes of Microsoft,google,Facebook etc as these are legitimate targets in the next world war. How many nukes might the Russians or Chinese land on all these HQs and data centres?

Ipso

Mr.H wrote: »

They gave people a false sense of financial security. We have more people in debt because they relied on these jobs that they were told were long term.

I don't mean they literally cost us more but they certainly milked our low tax unto they moved on to a low labour region instead.

Our nation was in less debt on a populous level before dell

You did hear of the Celtic bubble?

Unfortunately Ireland doesn't have much indigenous industry so we have to rely on large companies. Even though they pay little corporation tax their employees pay paye, prsi etc and they are not on the dole.
Not an ideal situation, but this is the country that convinced itself it was the richest in the world not too long ago.

Specialun

Mr.H wrote: »

And how many people in Ireland work for apple?

I'd safely bet it's not 13bn worth

A load of Tosh being spouted that we will lose out in the long term.

The only reason keeping apple happy is Ireland's portfolio looks better to other companies who see we have apple doing business here. Meanwhile we screw home grown companies on tax.

Thousands of jobs in ireland either direct or indirect. If you dont think we dont lose out in the long then I would suggest you sit this one out pal

Specialun

Mr.H wrote: »

Have we learnt nothing from relying on these firms in the past?

Companies like dell were responsible for off shoots that cost 100 thousand jobs alone.

We don't need these firms that cost more than they generate. Ireland is no better now than it was before dell

Complete garbage

Sam Quentin

jobr wrote: »

Because they technically did nothing wrong, so if we were to suddenly start demanding money from them, it would have to be the same for every other large multinational hq'd in Ireland and suddenly there would be nobody left here to provide jobs...

IN A NUTSHELL..
We owe it to these fantastic companies who have provided the people of Ireland with steady and decent paying jobs, and however this whole 'dilemma'(as Europe sees it)pans out they will know that Ireland appreciates the employment they have given us for years.

eeguy

Mr.H wrote: »

And how many people in Ireland work for apple?

I'd safely bet it's not 13bn worth

A load of Tosh being spouted that we will lose out in the long term.

The only reason keeping apple happy is Ireland's portfolio looks better to other companies who see we have apple doing business here. Meanwhile we screw home grown companies on tax.

Would you get over yourself.
The only reason MNCs are in Ireland is for the tax breaks.

We can kid ourselves that they're here for our well educated, English speaking workforce, but that's only a side benefit to the millions they save opening offices here.

If we close that off, then we could potentially see a similar Brexit scenario where companies lose the one benefit they're after, and immediately shut up shop and move.
Where else are the 50-150k jobs going to come from? Home grown businesses? Don't make me laugh.

bee06

Mr.H wrote: »

They gave people a false sense of financial security. We have more people in debt because they relied on these jobs that they were told were long term.

I don't mean they literally cost us more but they certainly milked our low tax unto they moved on to a low labour region instead.

Our nation was in less debt on a populous level before dell

There are people who have worked for Apple for 35 years. If that isn't considered long term I dunno what is. I highly doubt Apple will move to be honest given the investment they have put into and are still putting the Cork site.

Specialun

Mr h doesnt have an absolute notion what his talking about

Ipso

eeguy wrote: »

Would you get over yourself.
The only reason MNCs are in Ireland is for the tax breaks.

We can kid ourselves that they're here for our well educated, English speaking workforce, but that's only a side benefit to the millions they save opening offices here.

If we close that off, then we could potentially see a similar Brexit scenario where companies lose the one benefit they're after, and immediately shut up shop and move.
Where else are the 50-150k jobs going to come from? Home grown businesses? Don't make me laugh.

Corporations are the latest oppressor for the perpetually oppressed Irish.

eeguy

Ipso wrote: »

Corporations are the latest oppressor for the perpetually oppressed Irish.

Explain the rationale behind that statement, because I feel very oppressed picking up my huge wage packet each fortnight :rolleyes: