Why are we not collecting Apple tax money?

riffmongous

Where will the companies go to? Aren't they just here because of our tax, EU base, and english speaking educated workforce? If the tax issue is an EU wide thing then why would they leave?

Specialun

eeguy wrote: »

Explain the rationale behind that statement, because I feel very oppressed picking up my huge wage packet each fortnight :rolleyes:

I manage a team of 8. Not one person earns below 65k . Poor bastards must feel oppressed to fcuk

McMurphy

AlanG wrote: »

Ireland has been asked to collect the money on behalf of yet to be determined tax authorities - so we piss of our multinational investors for possibly no gain to Ireland. The government would be mad to collect the money until all appeals are finished. Control of our taxes is one of the powers the EU is not supposed to have taken so they brought this ruling under competition law. We haven't given control of tax to the EU so why should we do what they say.

yet they want to fix the price of alcohol in offsales, by introducing an MUP, which is obviously different to raising tax on alcohol as this would target gargle across the board, and hit the vintners, who they seem to be at the behest off.

eeguy

riffmongous wrote: »

Where will the companies go to? Aren't they just here because of our tax, EU base, and english speaking educated workforce? If the tax issue is an EU wide thing then why would they leave?

Off to Eastern Europe maybe? There's a lot of pharma and medical manufacturing in Ireland that could probably be sent to Croatia or other lower wage countries
Germany and France could take a lot of R&D from Ireland and they have the universities to support it too. If you're looking for English speaking, then Germans, French and Scandinavians have that covered.
We like to think the Irish are somehow special, but we're the same, if not worse than a lot of other countries.

lazybones32

This whole thing stinks. Apple and many others aren't paying anything near their legitimate tax bill, despite utilising every loophole available. The Irish Govt. won't ask for a reasonable payment of tax from them because they give us jobs....but they're here because of the low CT, not out of a love for Ireland or because we're the smartest workers. It shows who's really in charge.

touts

Because at the end of the day most of that 13bn will go to the circling vultures that we call our European partners in so called tax harmonisation and bank debt repayments. Far from easing plight of the average Irish citizen that money will be used to build schools and roads in Munich and Marseille so let them do their own dirty work.

eeguy

lazybones32 wrote: »

This whole thing stinks. Apple and many others aren't paying anything near their legitimate tax bill, despite utilising every loophole available. The Irish Govt. won't ask for a reasonable payment of tax from them because they give us jobs....but they're here because of the low CT, not out of a love for Ireland or because we're the smartest workers. It shows who's really in charge.

There's no evidence that Apple don't pay their tax bill to Ireland. TheJournal did a fact check last year and could neither prove nor disprove that claim. Neither Apple nor Revenue have to make the actual figures public but Revenue is the only government dept that seems to actually work, so I'd trust them when they say the tax paid was correct

But you're right that they're only here for our low CT. But sure is that such a bad thing. Better that Apple are here than elsewhere.

fxotoole

the_syco wrote: »

AFAIK, WE WILL NOT GET THE MONEY ! ! !

The EU wants us to collect the money, and to then give said money to the EU.

The EU will be the only winners. Ireland may also lose Apple.

Bingo.

To quote Aliens VS Predator, whoever wins, we loose.

fxotoole

nice_guy80 wrote: »

think of the pay rises we could give to the train drivers in CIE!

F*** the train drivers. If they wanted tech sector level wages, they should gotten off their arses, educated themselves and got into the tech sector. Instead of pissing and moaning about bankruptcy and threatening to strike if they don't get their wages increased.

arayess

i like these multinationals as much as the next man but maybe Ireland should develop a strategy to be less reliant on them.,..

Wheeliebin30

arayess wrote: »

i like these multinationals as much as the next man but maybe Ireland should develop a strategy to be less reliant on them.,..

Eh such as?

4068ac1elhodqr

May as well take the money, and smelt it into distributed gold or silver coinage for citizens to stash away for a rainy day.
As it won't be long now before EU Corp Tax Harmonisation s fully implemented, rates circa 20-25%? (up to double current).

From 2020, the UK's ever shrinking 17% corp rate will be more appetising to the multi-nationals,
then (aside from an over-educated workforce), the only USP will be wet, windy weather and green fields.

4068ac1elhodqr

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Eh such as?

Couple of ideas:

i) Proper preparation for the emerging 4th Industrial Revolution.
ii) Better use of one of the largest territories in Europe (note: 90% of it is underwater).

Ipso

eeguy wrote: »

Explain the rationale behind that statement, because I feel very oppressed picking up my huge wage packet each fortnight :rolleyes:

Just another entity for Irish people to blame for their problems, also throw in some generic left wing anti corporation nonsense.
Fintan O'Toole had a bloody article saying how Ireland whored itself to Disney by allowing Star Wars to film in Skellig Michael, despite it having a positive impact on tourism. Another thing they'd whinge about would be the government not doing enough the build the tourism industry.

Ipso

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Eh such as?

Property, be smart and ballsy. What could go wrong?

Wheeliebin30

It's a dog eat dog world.

You gotta do what you have to to get by.

If we don't do it some other country will.

It's one of our finer achievements in our history.

4068ac1elhodqr

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

It's a dog eat dog world.
You gotta do what you have to to get by.
If we don't do it some other country will.
It's one of our finer achievements in our history.

True, but the real question is how much longer will the red light be left on for, and if when it does go out, what next i.e. what's the plan?

Also would it be a good time to 'cash out' now or in the near future, stack up those poker chips and make one's way to the cashiers desk while the going's good...

riffmongous

eeguy wrote: »

Off to Eastern Europe maybe? There's a lot of pharma and medical manufacturing in Ireland that could probably be sent to Croatia or other lower wage countries
Germany and France could take a lot of R&D from Ireland and they have the universities to support it too. If you're looking for English speaking, then Germans, French and Scandinavians have that covered.
We like to think the Irish are somehow special, but we're the same, if not worse than a lot of other countries.

But if that was the case the companies could have just asked some other country for a special tax deal and moved already

lazybones32

eeguy wrote: »

There's no evidence that Apple don't pay their tax bill to Ireland. TheJournal did a fact check last year and could neither prove nor disprove that claim. Neither Apple nor Revenue have to make the actual figures public but Revenue is the only government dept that seems to actually work, so I'd trust them when they say the tax paid was correct

But you're right that they're only here for our low CT. But sure is that such a bad thing. Better that Apple are here than elsewhere.

If Apple or the other corp. were paying their taxes, why in the fuq are the EU trying to pressurise Ireland to claim taxes off them?

The IT, in 2014, showed that Apple paid 36 million on 7.11 billion, so don't play the 'we've no evidence!' card and expect it to stand. What % of 7,110,000,000 is 36,000,000? I'd love to have that tax rate...

But shur, aren't they givin us jobs so i spose that makes criminal behaviour okay.

Cookie_Monster

jobr wrote: »

Because they technically did nothing wrong, so if we were to suddenly start demanding money from them, it would have to be the same for every other large multinational hq'd in Ireland and suddenly there would be nobody left here to provide jobs...

except they did. they short paid tax because of an illegal state aid deal with the Irish government

Wheeliebin30

lazybones32 wrote: »

If Apple or the other corp. were paying their taxes, why in the fuq are the EU trying to pressurise Ireland to claim taxes off them?

The IT, in 2014, showed that Apple paid 36 million on 7.11 billion, so don't play the 'we've no evidence!' card and expect it to stand. What % of 7,110,000,000 is 36,000,000? I'd love to have that tax rate...

But shur, aren't they givin us jobs so i spose that makes criminal behaviour okay.

Revenue have disclosed all documents showing apple paying 12.5% corporation tax on profits made in Ireland.

That is all that matters.

smurgen

jobr wrote: »

Because they technically did nothing wrong, so if we were to suddenly start demanding money from them, it would have to be the same for every other large multinational hq'd in Ireland and suddenly there would be nobody left here to provide jobs...

I'd be of the opposite view.i think the department of finance has handled it terribly and now the noise the E.U is making is starting to make us look very very bad.ireland is fast gaining a reputation as an offshore country on a massive instudrial scale.we'd do well to collect the money quickly and hand it to the E.U before all of our non EU relationship are looked at.

tomwaterford

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Revenue have disclosed all documents showing apple paying 12.5% corporation tax on profits made in Ireland.

That is all that matters.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2016/08/30/how-apples-irish-subsidiaries-paid-a-0005-percent-tax-rate-in-2014.html
Pretty much implicates the irish government in aiding apples tax evasions

Someone's lieing to someone....it's a big jump for the eu to step in and demand tax be paid.....and an even bigger oddity the government wouldn't bother their hole and try muddle through like they do with everything else

...And Justice

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

It's a dog eat dog world.

You gotta do what you have to to get by.

If we don't do it some other country will.

It's one of our finer achievements in our history.

I agree, the only people giving out are the Champaign socialists that are sitting in their cushy mansions telling the unemployable and the gimme, gimme society that apple can pay for their woes.

These people have no connection with apple whatsoever, but they want them to pay for their shìt.

I on the otherhand have worked my arsè off for multinationals for years just to get the house I want. The way I see it, you contribute to society and you get rewarded.

lazybones32

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Revenue have disclosed all documents showing apple paying 12.5% corporation tax on profits made in Ireland.

That is all that matters.

Sorry sir. My mistake. I won't question it again, sir. But kind sir, if that's all that matters, and i'm not questioning your knowledge of taxation, are the EU falsifying information against Apple or the Revenue Commissioners? Where did they get their figures of what is owed from? Thank you sir.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Straight from the sinn fein and left idiocy.

WTF are you talking about? I wish people would just stfu with this bullshít. It's unintelligent drivel.

People who moan about the apple tax aren't left or Sinn shagging Fein, or Trumpets, or crusties or facists, or aligned to any other bullshít label you like to apply to those you IMAGINE having a slightly alternative view. Are you just doing this so you can have an argument with a pseudo "enemy"? It's easier to fight something others perceive equally as negative, right? I mean, if you could somehow convince your imagined side, that the person you disagree with is a "lefty" or a "sinn feiner", it makes your argument easier, right? That's what your hoping for. It's nonsensical.

People are obsessed with labels, why? Why can't you debate a point without having to rely on a label to help get your point across? It's because you can't effectively argue your point. Ad hominem!

tomwaterford

Cain Panicky Bandage wrote: »

WTF are you talking about? I wish people would just stfu with this bullshít. It's unintelligent drivel.

People who moan about the apple tax aren't left or Sinn shagging Fein, or Trumpets, or crusties or facists, or aligned to any other bullshít label you like to apply to those you IMAGINE having a slightly alternative view. Are you just doing this so you can have an argument with a pseudo "enemy"? It's easier to fight something others perceive equally as negative, right? I mean, if you could somehow convince your imagined side, that the person you disagree with is a "lefty" or a "sinn feiner", it makes your argument easier, right? That's what your hoping for. It's nonsensical.

People are obsessed with labels, why? Why can't you debate a point without having to rely on a label to help get your point across? It's because you can't effectively argue your point. Ad hominem!

In fairness...there trying to argue 50 euro out of every million in tax is acceptable....I pay more than that in tax every time I fill my car with petrol

Richard Hillman

They put up a decent enough fight to show Apple "tried our best boss, we will accept a cheque".

These companies are not in Ireland for the 12.5%. They are here for the patent/royalty loopholes.

Wheeliebin30

lazybones32 wrote: »

Sorry sir. My mistake. I won't question it again, sir. But kind sir, if that's all that matters, and i'm not questioning your knowledge of taxation, are the EU falsifying information against Apple or the Revenue Commissioners? Where did they get their figures of what is owed from? Thank you sir.

I already explained.

It's tax on profits from other countries that Apple are accused of not paying.

It's not tax on profits earned in Ireland.

That has been paid at the correct rate.

Is that simple enough for you sir?

lazybones32

...And Justice wrote: »

I agree, the only people giving out are the Champaign socialists that are sitting in their cushy mansions telling the unemployable and the gimme, gimme society that apple can pay for their woes.

These people have no connection with apple whatsoever, but they want them to pay for their shìt.

I on the otherhand have worked my arsè off for multinationals for years just to get the house I want. The way I see it, you contribute to society and you get rewarded.

Sarcasm, i hope?
Revenue want/take 35% of what i make, which means i get paid for four days when i work six. If they want 0.05% of my money, like they do with others, i would happily oblige. And i am no socialist, in case you wonder.

AllGunsBlazing

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

It's a dog eat dog world.

You gotta do what you have to to get by.

If we don't do it some other country will.

It's one of our finer achievements in our history.

Worst rap ever.

Wheeliebin30

Cain Panicky Bandage wrote: »

WTF are you talking about? I wish people would just stfu with this bullshít. It's unintelligent drivel.

People who moan about the apple tax aren't left or Sinn shagging Fein, or Trumpets, or crusties or facists, or aligned to any other bullshít label you like to apply to those you IMAGINE having a slightly alternative view. Are you just doing this so you can have an argument with a pseudo "enemy"? It's easier to fight something others perceive equally as negative, right? I mean, if you could somehow convince your imagined side, that the person you disagree with is a "lefty" or a "sinn feiner", it makes your argument easier, right? That's what your hoping for. It's nonsensical.

People are obsessed with labels, why? Why can't you debate a point without having to rely on a label to help get your point across? It's because you can't effectively argue your point. Ad hominem!

It's because I heard a sinn fein official on the radio earlier saying the goverment should take that money and invest in housing.

Deluded and don't even realise it's not our money.

That's where I got it from.

Ace2007

Pretty much every dog in the street knows that Apple and others aren't paying the 12.5% corporation tax. But that has nothing to do with the 13billion, the same EU who say we should be collecting it are also saying we can't spent it, so saying that we need money for homes etc. is pointless.

twowheelsonly

Mr.H wrote: »

And how many people in Ireland work for apple?

I'd safely bet it's not 13bn worth

A load of Tosh being spouted that we will lose out in the long term.

The only reason keeping apple happy is Ireland's portfolio looks better to other companies who see we have apple doing business here. Meanwhile we screw home grown companies on tax.

And lose out we will if they were to up sticks and go.
The 13bn is supposedly what they owe in Europe, not to us, and is dated back to when they first arrived here. It's pretty well documented that they've paid whatever taxes are due here.
Apple have been in Cork since 1980, creating employment for thousands directly and many more thousands indirectly. That's 37 years that they've generated income for those thousands of people so the totals would be well into multiples of milions.

Mr.H wrote: »

They gave people a false sense of financial security. We have more people in debt because they relied on these jobs that they were told were long term.

I don't mean they literally cost us more but they certainly milked our low tax unto they moved on to a low labour region instead.

Our nation was in less debt on a populous level before dell

Dell lasted 25 years before they moved out which to be fair is reasonably long term. IMO it was the imaginary tiger that killed them as it drove up wages and the cost of manufacturing here.
BTW, there are still over 2,000 people working directly for Dell in this country, somewhere up around 2,300 or 2,400 at the moment as far as I know.

Wheeliebin30

lazybones32 wrote: »

Sarcasm, i hope?
Revenue want/take 35% of what i make, which means i get paid for four days when i work six. If they want 0.05% of my money, like they do with others, i would happily oblige. And i am no socialist, in case you wonder.

Who did revenue take .05% in tax from?

Tigger

brevity wrote: »

Give everyone in Ireland a free iPhone X - be grand.

256GB. Don't be cheap now.

yeah so we can all build new houses to replace tge oncmes that burned down ?

oppenheimer1

job seeker wrote: »

Welcome to Ireland. Where we screw Irish citizens on tax, but are to foolish not to take it from companies who are worth millions.

:rolleyes:

The actual reason the money hasn't been collected and put in Escrow if because the Government have to appoint fund managers that will mirror Apples investment portfolio. The reason for this is that Apple could sue the Irish government for the difference if their billions in escrow don't perform as well as Apples investments under their direct control.

The government are planning on appointing a fund manager approved by Apple to prevent this risk from materialising.

Now please everyone continue your uninformed rants

tomwaterford

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Who did revenue take .05% in tax from?

Apple??
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2016/08/30/how-apples-irish-subsidiaries-paid-a-0005-percent-tax-rate-in-2014.html

Hence the boot up the arse from the eu to get them to so their jobs?

Apple set up a hq and sold in tge eu through ireland...but can get away without paying tax

If male machinery from mayo sells new round balers through dealerships in France, should they only pay 0.05% tax on profits on those?

eeguy

Tigger wrote: »

yeah so we can all build new houses to replace tge oncmes that burned down ?

What?

Wheeliebin30

tomwaterford wrote: »

Apple??
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2016/08/30/how-apples-irish-subsidiaries-paid-a-0005-percent-tax-rate-in-2014.html

Hence the boot up the arse from the eu to get them to so their jobs?

Apple set up a hq and in eu sold through ireland...but can get away without paying tax

If male machinery from mayo sells new round balers through dealerships in France, should they only pay 0.05% tax on profits on those?

Revenue received 12.5% from Apple on its profits in Ireland.

All above board.

Anything else is nothing to do with Ireland.

Can you point out where it says revenue only received .05% from Apple on its profits in Ireland please.

You won't be able to. Don't waste your time or do.

tomwaterford

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Revenue received 12.5% from Apple on its profits in Ireland.

All above board.

Anything else is nothing to do with Ireland.

Can you point out where it says revenue only received .05% from Apple on its profits in Ireland please.

You won't be able to. Don't waste your time or do.

Ordinarily, those profits would be taxed in Ireland at the relatively low rate of 12.5 percent but — thanks to an agreement between Apple and Ireland — the vast majority of profits in Ireland were attributed to a "head office"


Slightly further
practice: In 2011, Apple Sales International recorded profits of €16 billion, but under the terms of the tax ruling only around €50 million were considered taxable in Ireland, leaving €15.95 billion of profits untaxed. Apple Sales International paid less than €10 million of corporate tax in Ireland in 2011 – an effective tax rate of about 0.05% on its overall annual profits.

Jimbob1977

Accepting the €13bn from Apple would be a tacit acknowledgement by the Irish State that our legislation and tax codes were flawed and in contravention of EU laws.

It could lead to a tidal wave of penalties for other multinationals that were given sweet deals.

Ireland succeeded in the Celtic Tiger era from having the 12.5% corporation tax rate. In addition, some effective tax planning could reduce company tax bills to almost zero.

Make no mistake - if there is a crackdown, multinationals will move to the next 'hot ticket'. Our English language and good work ethic won't keep us afloat forever

Augme

brainfreeze wrote: »

The Governments reason: Because if we do they will move somewhere else.

It will set a precedent, and then it will open up a can of worms for the other multinationals to pay us in back taxes.

"Great", you think. "What's wrong with getting money we are owed!?".

If Apple (and others) thought they would have to pay Ireland 15.3 billion in taxes, they wouldn't be here in the first place. If all these companies are forced to pay, then they will move as we are no longer worth it for them. Getting tax cuts is why they are here. Remove that and we become unattractive compared to other nations.

"So what are we getting out of it?"

Jobs. They still have to hire people and pay them, and that money goes into our economy. We'd rather undercut in taxes and stimulate our economy via employment, than getting nothing at all. Apart from perhaps Intercom, all the "big boys" in Ireland tech industry are foreign multinationals. Because of them, we have the second largest high end tech services jobs in the EU, second only to Finland. 4.3% of all Jobs in Ireland.

They go, we lose 140,000 jobs, and we've no way to replace them or the income they generate.

That's Irelands current stance. They are not trying to turn away free money, they are trying to make sure we retain and create future jobs in the tech sector. Turning down billions in a lump sum looks like small fries when you then destroy over a hundred thousand jobs and then lose our #2 status in the EU for said tech jobs. Irelands stance is that it isn't worth it.

Still amazed people fall for this stuff. Shows how truly naive and sub-servant the Irish people are.

Wheeliebin30

tomwaterford wrote: »

Ordinarily, those profits would be taxed in Ireland at the relatively low rate of 12.5 percent but — thanks to an agreement between Apple and Ireland — the vast majority of profits in Ireland were attributed to a "head office"


Slightly further
practice: In 2011, Apple Sales International recorded profits of €16 billion, but under the terms of the tax ruling only around €50 million were considered taxable in Ireland, leaving €15.95 billion of profits untaxed. Apple Sales International paid less than €10 million of corporate tax in Ireland in 2011 – an effective tax rate of about 0.05% on its overall annual profits.

The commission said noone else.

It's allegations which have been denied by revenue.

Now as I said you can't show me the evidence that they paid anything other than 12.5% on profits in Ireland.

Here is revenue clearly stating with evidence to back it up apple paid the correct amount.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/revenue-insists-it-collected-all-taxes-apple-owed-1.2772934%3Fmode=amp

tomwaterford

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

The commission said noone else.

It's allegations which have been denied by revenue.

Now as I said you can't show me the evidence that they paid anything other than 12.5% on profits in Ireland.

Here is revenue clearly stating with evidence to back it up apple paid the correct amount.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/revenue-insists-it-collected-all-taxes-apple-owed-1.2772934%3Fmode=amp

It comes to a simple question of whether you believe the revenue commissioners or the eu??

That they collected the tax or that as the eu alleges they effectively gave state aid in tax avoidence



If this doesn't amount to state aid and tax avoided ce. ..what deos?
http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/30/technology/apple-tax-ruling-numbers/index.html


Another source that says it's 0.05% tax take??....numbers never lie...people do


If every one else is saying it's x and Irish government which has a sketchy relationship with the truth at best...who is it prudent to believe??

Wheeliebin30

tomwaterford wrote: »

It comes to a simple question of whether you believe the revenue commissioners or the eu??

That they collected the tax or that as the eu alleges they effectively gave state aid in tax avoidence



If this doesn't amount to state aid and tax avoided ce. ..what deos?
http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/30/technology/apple-tax-ruling-numbers/index.html


Another source that says it's 0.05% tax take??....numbers never lie...people do


If every one else is saying it's x and Irish government which has a sketchy relationship with the truth at best...who is it prudent to believe??

From your link.

Apple paid the standard Irish tax rate on profits booked to its Ireland branch. Those it allocated to the phantom head office were tax free, because under Irish law it was then considered a "stateless company."


I believe revenue.

Who is everyone else that is saying it?

eeguy

Augme wrote: »

Still amazed people fall for this stuff. Shows how truly naive and sub-servant the Irish people are.

Are you going to tell us that he's wrong and what the alternative is?

...And Justice

lazybones32 wrote: »

Sarcasm, i hope?
Revenue want/take 35% of what i make, which means i get paid for four days when i work six. If they want 0.05% of my money, like they do with others, i would happily oblige. And i am no socialist, in case you wonder.

Revenue take ~56% of my salary, I live like every other working man. I also pay tax on every other benefit I get gets taxed as BIC. Including bonus, etc..to be honest I think we need to reward people like myself and remove money from the socialites that contribute absolutely nothing to society except live because people like me provide an income for them.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

It's because I heard a sinn fein official on the radio earlier saying the goverment should take that money and invest in housing.

Deluded and don't even realise it's not our money.

That's where I got it from.

And there's people who support FF and FG and the greens and independents that think the same way. Then there's those who support the same group who have opposite views. How do you arrive at this conclusion "If you think Apple should pay, you support Sinn Fein or are a liberal". How? My mind is concentrated apple sauce thinking of this.

Are you able to tell which party I support? I think it's a bad idea for the government to collect the tax/fine (whatever it's called).

tomwaterford

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

From your link.

Apple paid the standard Irish tax rate on profits booked to its Ireland branch. Those it allocated to the phantom head office were tax free, because under Irish law it was then considered a "stateless company."


I believe revenue.

Who is everyone else that is saying it?

The stateless company is a tax fraud and accountting scam...much like farmers applying opportunity cost and taking a wage from the farm aswell


The eu is after laughing at that excuse...apples European are in ireland and so it's not unreasonable for the tax to be paid at its hq....quite why the government had to be told this is worrying