Why are we not collecting Apple tax money?

Wheeliebin30

Cain Panicky Bandage wrote: »

And there's people who support FF and FG and the greens and independents that think the same way. Then there's those who support the same group who have opposite views. How do you arrive at this conclusion "If you think Apple should pay, you support Sinn Fein or are a liberal". How? My mind is concentrated apple sauce thinking of this.

Are you able to tell which party I support? I think it's a bad idea for the government to collect the tax/fine (whatever it's called).

Haven't heard them people.

I have heard aaa pbp sinn fein etc all spout the same nonsense.

Sorry if it upsets you that I haven't heard ff or fg say it.

Hopefully I do so I can lump them in that bracket.

tomwaterford

...And Justice wrote: »

Revenue take ~56% of my salary, I live like every other working man. I also pay tax on every other benefit I get gets taxed as BIC. Including bonus, etc..to be honest I think we need to reward people like myself and remove money from the socialites that contribute absolutely nothing to society except live because people like me provide an income for them.

You do know if the government bothered to collect tax it's meant to....it could reduce your income tax??

Augme

eeguy wrote: »

Are you going to tell us that he's wrong and what the alternative is?

Of course he's wrong. You really think all the Multinationals will cut and run if we start charging them 12.5%? Come on, get real here. The alternative is that you set up the escrow account and have the money placed in there rather than being forced into it by the EU.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

...And Justice wrote: »

Revenue take ~56% of my salary, I live like every other working man. I also pay tax on every other benefit I get gets taxed as BIC. Including bonus, etc..to be honest I think we need to reward people like myself and remove money from the socialites that contribute absolutely nothing to society except live because people like me provide an income for them.

How are you paying 56% tax?

As for people thinking they get payed for 4 days and work 6. You get paid for 6 days... whatever weird angle you want to put on it.

Tax in Ireland is low, it should be far higher.

...And Justice

tomwaterford wrote: »

You do know if the government bothered to collect tax it's meant to....it could reduce your income tax??

Ahhh ha ha ha. Is that a joke?

SEPT 23 1989

Put on that green jersey and suck it up

tomwaterford

...And Justice wrote: »

Ahhh ha ha ha. Is that a joke?

No?

eeguy

Augme wrote: »

Of course he's wrong. You really think all the Multinationals will cut and run if we start charging them 12.5%? Come on, get real here. The alternative is that you set up the escrow account and have the money placed in there rather than being forced into it by the EU.

Not all, but its a major factor in setting up in Ireland. It may stifle new MNCs and existing ones growning.

...And Justice

tomwaterford wrote: »

No?

Pick a planet any planet.......

...And Justice

Cain Panicky Bandage wrote: »

How are you paying 56% tax?

As for people thinking they get payed for 4 days and work 6. You get paid for 6 days... whatever weird angle you want to put on it.

Tax in Ireland is low, it should be far higher.

I earn over a certain amount, which is puntive.

lazybones32

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I already explained.

It's tax on profits from other countries that Apple are accused of not paying.

It's not tax on profits earned in Ireland.

That has been paid at the correct rate.

Is that simple enough for you sir?

But ireland has been happy to be an offshore account of sorts for multinationals for a few years now. Kickback was going to come. The EU are trying to bend us over a barrel to act against Apple but we happily bent over that barrel to accommodate Apple in the first place. We are complicit at least. If nothing untoward or illegal has occurred, then the EU has no case. If something illegal has occurred we are complicit and are aiding tax evasion.

Have i sympathy for Apple? No. They are using us for their benefit. Small pop., attractive CT and in the EU.
Have i sympathy for the Govt.? No. They were happy to tango with corps. and assist them in evasion in return for employment. Also told us that we are at the heart of europe; etc....to give the eu more power.
Are the EU the good guys? No. I suspect there are ulterior motives which are not in the interest of the welfare or prosperity of ireland. But here we are.

Wheeliebin30

lazybones32 wrote: »

But ireland has been happy to be an offshore account of sorts for multinationals for a few years now. Kickback was going to come. The EU are trying to bend us over a barrel to act against Apple but we happily bent over that barrel to accommodate Apple in the first place. We are complicit at least. If nothing untoward or illegal has occurred, then the EU has no case. If something illegal has occurred we are complicit and are aiding tax evasion.

Have i sympathy for Apple? No. They are using us for their benefit. Small pop., attractive CT and in the EU.
Have i sympathy for the Govt.? No. They were happy to tango with corps. and assist them in evasion in return for employment. Also told us that we are at the heart of europe; etc....to give the eu more power.
Are the EU the good guys? No. I suspect there are ulterior motives which are not in the interest of the welfare or prosperity of ireland. But here we are.

Well there are thousands and thousands of Irish people who have jobs and homes from employment through apple.

That's enough for me to be grateful they are here.

BillyBobBS

Disgusting, our government are a bunch of cowards.

Ace2007

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Disgusting, our government are a bunch of cowards.

Why? and what do you want them to do exactly?

tomwaterford

...And Justice wrote: »

Pick a planet any planet.......

Mars?

Don't see what this has to do with government aided tax avoidence though?

lazybones32

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Well there are thousands and thousands of Irish people who have jobs and homes from employment through apple.

That's enough for me to be grateful they are here.

And that says a lot...

eeguy

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Well there are thousands and thousands of Irish people who have jobs and homes from employment through apple.

That's enough for me to be grateful they are here.

Thousands? Tens of thousands since the 80s.
Some people would prefer Ireland back in the 50s.

Wheeliebin30

lazybones32 wrote: »

And that says a lot...

What does it say?

Geuze

...And Justice wrote: »

Revenue take ~56% of my salary, I live like every other working man. I also pay tax on every other benefit I get gets taxed as BIC.

Nobody in Ireland pays 56% of their income in direct taxes.

You might face a 56% marginal income tax rates, yes.

...And Justice

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Well there are thousands and thousands of Irish people who have jobs and homes from employment through apple.

That's enough for me to be grateful they are here.

200,000 employed directly and 200,000 employed indirectly with services. I think I rather the MNC,s pay no tax.

VinLieger

...And Justice wrote: »

200,000 employed directly and 200,000 employed indirectly with services. I think I rather the MNC,s pay no tax.

Indeed people ignore the thousands of indirectly employed whose major business is providing services to these MNCs like caterers, facilities/maintenance, cleaners, electricians, security..... the list goes on

A Battered Mars Bar

I actually had to stop reading this thread for fear of getting a brain aneurysm from the gullible fine gael voting rte civil servants regurgitating what they heard on the last word this evening. Learn some bloody facts for yourself, clowns.

I actually can't I just can't. My blood boils even thinking about these tossers in government flapping their suit sleeves hoping this issue will disappear.

I WILL NOT BE VOTING FINE GAEL EVER AGAIN IN ETERNITY BASED SOLELY ON THEIR STANCE ON THIS.

not that I ever would vote for them again, based on Michael Noonan cronyism, austerity, weak leadership etc throughout the bank bailout years.

I'M RAGING. TEETH CLENCHED. WITH GOD DAMN RAGE. TAKE THE F**CKING MONEY YOU UTTER MORONS.

VinLieger

A Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

I actually had to stop reading this thread for fear of getting a brain aneurysm from the gullible fine gael voting rte civil servants regurgitating what they heard on the last word this evening. Learn some bloody facts for yourself, clowns.

I actually can't I just can't. My blood boils even thinking about these tossers in government flapping their suit sleeves hoping this issue will disappear.

I WILL NOT BE VOTING FINE GAEL EVER AGAIN IN ETERNITY BASED SOLELY ON THEIR STANCE ON THIS.

not that I ever would vote for them again, based on Michael Noonan cronyism, austerity, weak leadership etc throughout the bank bailout years.

I'M RAGING. TEETH CLENCHED. WITH GOD DAMN RAGE. TAKE THE F**CKING MONEY YOU UTTER MORONS.

Wow you might want to calm down...... Also do you have any relevant points to make or are you just happy to spew caps at everyone......

eeguy

...And Justice wrote: »

200,000 employed directly and 200,000 employed indirectly with services. I think I rather the MNC,s pay no tax.

Not to mention the hundred of thousands of men women and children who are supported by this money.

A Battered Mars Bar

...And Justice wrote: »

200,000 employed directly and 200,000 employed indirectly with services. I think I rather the MNC,s pay no tax.

400k employed indirect and direct by MNC in the country?! What are you smoking pal?

Cordell

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/one-in-five-now-employed-by-foreign-multinationals-1.2486929

The IDA estimates that for every 10 jobs created by FDI, a further seven indirect jobs are generated in the wider economy. This means about 318,000 jobs or one in five private sector jobs are supported by Irish-based multinationals.

So this is what he's smoking, some good sht.

StupidLikeAFox

I think we should fight this all the way. I also think we should hire an alcoholic lawyer who hasn't won a case in 30 years to defend us. *wink*

A Battered Mars Bar

Cordell wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/one-in-five-now-employed-by-foreign-multinationals-1.2486929



So this is what he's smoking, some good sht.

Complete and utter bs. You of all people should know better

A Battered Mars Bar

A Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Complete and utter bs.

Why?

Wheeliebin30

A Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Complete and utter bs. You of all people should know better

You come here ranting and raving at people with absolutely no facts to back up any of your rants.

Just calling the government this and that and then calling bs on simple facts.

Not a lot going on with you really is there.

_Dara_

I know very little about economics but enticing companies with a low tax rate has always seemed precarious to me.

NinetyTwoTeam

Anyone who thinks apple will pick up and leave here if they had to pay the tax bill is an idiot. They would still be paying the lowest tax in the eu, and Ireland offers highly trained English speaking employees, we are well positioned time zone wise between the states and the rest Europe, and for employees that they want to send overseas for projects/site visits, etc Ireland is very attractive. They aren't going anywhere, this is just the same old strokes being pulled - our corrupt government have had their tongues firmly in the arse of big multinationals for decades.
Plenty of jobs in other sectors left the country during the recession and it wasn't because they owed tax and the government did nothing. They're not fighting this to save the jobs of IT workers, it's all about keeping the boys in the elite circles in clover no matter what.

Wheeliebin30

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

Anyone who thinks apple will pick up and leave here if they had to pay the tax bill is an idiot. They would still be paying the lowest tax in the eu, and Ireland offers highly trained English speaking employees, we are well positioned time zone wise between the states and the rest Europe, and for employees that they want to send overseas for projects/site visits, etc Ireland is very attractive. They aren't going anywhere, this is just the same old strokes being pulled - our corrupt government have had their tongues firmly in the arse of big multinationals for decades.
Plenty of jobs in other sectors left the country during the recession and it wasn't because they owed tax and the government did nothing. They're not fighting this to save the jobs of IT workers, it's all about keeping the boys in the elite circles in clover no matter what.

There is a shortage of highly trained people in Ireland right now.

Most sectors are short of skilled people.

There isn't enough college graduates to fill the roles needed.

http://www.thejournal.ie/tech-jobs-ireland-922741-May2013/

English speaking? Don't be so naive, a lot of European countries speak better English than irish people plus multiple other languages!

Most irish people speak 1 language. We are so far behind in this regard it's embarrassing.

Why is Ireland attractive for sending employees overseas? Air travel nowadays can send you anywhere anytime. Ireland isn't special in that regard.

Make no mistake our corporate tax rate is the main reason and there is nothing wrong with that.

99nsr125

Nonsense

They're not here to provide jobs, they don't give a shît about us

They're here to make money

jobr wrote: »

Because they technically did nothing wrong, so if we were to suddenly start demanding money from them, it would have to be the same for every other large multinational hq'd in Ireland and suddenly there would be nobody left here to provide jobs...

99nsr125

You know if you calculate the extra EU funds we have to contribute because of skewed GDP we're NET losers including all the jobs, ancillary services and meager corporation tax effective rate

brainfreeze wrote: »

The Governments reason: Because if we do they will move somewhere else.

It will set a precedent, and then it will open up a can of worms for the other multinationals to pay us in back taxes.

"Great", you think. "What's wrong with getting money we are owed!?".

If Apple (and others) thought they would have to pay Ireland 15.3 billion in taxes, they wouldn't be here in the first place. If all these companies are forced to pay, then they will move as we are no longer worth it for them. Getting tax cuts is why they are here. Remove that and we become unattractive compared to other nations.

"So what are we getting out of it?"

Jobs. They still have to hire people and pay them, and that money goes into our economy. We'd rather undercut in taxes and stimulate our economy via employment, than getting nothing at all. Apart from perhaps Intercom, all the "big boys" in Ireland tech industry are foreign multinationals. Because of them, we have the second largest high end tech services jobs in the EU, second only to Finland. 4.3% of all Jobs in Ireland.

They go, we lose 140,000 jobs, and we've no way to replace them or the income they generate.

That's Irelands current stance. They are not trying to turn away free money, they are trying to make sure we retain and create future jobs in the tech sector. Turning down billions in a lump sum looks like small fries when you then destroy over a hundred thousand jobs and then lose our #2 status in the EU for said tech jobs. Irelands stance is that it isn't worth it.

Wheeliebin30

99nsr125 wrote: »

You know if you calculate the extra EU funds we have to contribute because of skewed GDP we're NET losers including all the jobs, ancillary services and meager corporation tax effective rate

Link to your facts and evidence based figures with your statement please?

AndyBoBandy

We should take the money, and use it to build a second ring road around Dublin, and also hope Apple pull out of Ireland, just to spite Cork.


(Disclaimer for anyone who actually thinks I’m serious, it’s AH, I’m not)

Wheeliebin30

99nsr125 wrote: »

Nonsense

They're not here to provide jobs, they don't give a shît about us

They're here to make money

Of course they're here to make money?

Jesus christ welcome to the real world. You think life is all roses and people employ workers because their nice people?

Meanwhile back on planet earth.

NinetyTwoTeam

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

Anyone who thinks apple will pick up and leave here if they had to pay the tax bill is an idiot. They would still be paying the lowest tax in the eu, and Ireland offers highly trained English speaking employees, we are well positioned time zone wise between the states.......

Iv worked for these type multinationals in europe, and visited asia and america a good few times, I dont like this view wherever I see it.

Anyone that is serious in international business these days speaks english (or chinese), there is no shortage of english speakers in europe UK, NL, DE all will speak it willingly in businesses i visited.

The Taiwanese and Koreans were all learning it at school too. English is not the advantage it once was in the late '90s, early '00s.

The time zone is not a big deal, we are only an hour ahead of europe and or education system is well, fair to middling I think.

Sam Kade

begbysback wrote: »

If we demand the money then they will take their business elsewhere, then there would be no apples in the grocers.

Trump want them home either way so we should take the money with penalties added

Reati

VinLieger wrote: »

By collecting it we potentially lose future investments from Apple that they may have been planning that would ultimately help the country far more in the long run than what will ultimately only be a portion of the 13Bn.

No, the fact two people can hold up a approved data center planned in a field outside Galway for years (while a similar project has completed in mainland Europe and a second already started) has already made sure we will see no more future large investments here from Apple...

Reati

Reati wrote: »

No, the fact two people can hold up a approved data center planned in a field outside Galway has already made sure we will see no more future large investments here from Apple...

I would also sadly add to this the fact that
- the cost of accommodation (rent or buy) have gone through the roof, it is unattractive to move here or return from abroad. Its making employmeny here very expensive.
- The state of the infrastructure and public transport networks in our cities is very very poor. (dublin is choked with traffic)

Companies look at this stuff before investing.

Wheeliebin30

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I would also sadly add to this the fact that
- the cost of accommodation (rent or buy) have gone through the roof, it is unattractive to move here or return from abroad. Its making employmeny here very expensive.
- The state of the infrastructure and public transport networks in our cities is very very poor. (dublin is choked with traffic)

Companies look at this stuff before investing.

Compared to other major cities our accomodation costs are still below average.

Wheeliebin30

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Compared to other major cities our accomodation costs are still below average.

Really? Bloody hell! What cities are you comparing to?

One of the major problems me and my colleagues have had since coming back is getting places to rent. There is a real shortage.

lazybones32

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Of course they're here to make money?

Jesus christ welcome to the real world. You think life is all roses and people employ workers because their nice people?

Meanwhile back on planet earth.

Meanwhile back on planet Earth, Ireland is being taken to court for aiding a corporation to pay tax on only 0.5 - 0.005% of its earnings: aiding, assisting and harbouring tax fraud. But such illegality is okay because they employ 400,000 people here. 😊

I think you should make a submission to the commission and clear up the whole situation.

Wheeliebin30

lazybones32 wrote: »

Meanwhile back on planet Earth, Ireland is being taken to court for aiding a corporation to pay tax on only 0.5 - 0.005% of its earnings: aiding, assisting and harbouring tax fraud. But such illegality is okay because they employ 400,000 people here. 😊

I think you should make a submission to the commission and clear up the whole situation.

That's not why they are been taken to court.

And it's only an accusation, revenue and the Irish government are fighting it saying nothing wrong was done.

So how about we wait until the truth comes out.

Cordell

lazybones32 wrote: »

Meanwhile back on planet Earth, Ireland is being taken to court for aiding a corporation to pay tax on only 0.5 - 0.005% of its earnings: aiding, assisting and harbouring tax fraud. But such illegality is okay because they employ 400,000 people here. ��

I think you should make a submission to the commission and clear up the whole situation.

It's not fraud nor evasion nor any other nonsense when it's done with the government and revenue and within the letter of the (Irish) law.

Cordell

99nsr125 wrote: »

Nonsense

They're not here to provide jobs, they don't give a shît about us

They're here to make money

Any private firm, MNC or not, it's here to make money.
It's just better to have them making money here rather than elsewhere.

737max

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Link to your facts and evidence based figures with your statement please?

The only figures available show that there is distortion, not how massively distorted Ireland's GDP and to a lesser extent GNP values actually are.

http://www.eolasmagazine.ie/understanding-irelands-unreal-economic-growth/

I don't have the appetite for an arguement today but the figures for GDP force Ireland to pay more in to the E.U. pot, force more to be spent on Social welfare, health and education because spend vs. GDP is the international measuring stick regardless of whether the country actually collects the taxes or note and extra money must be spent on infrastructure in the country because the multi-nationals employ so many non-Irish as opposed to Irish who don't have the skills to take the roles or have higher wage expectations. There are more people in the country so more need for common infrastructure.

lazybones32

Cordell wrote: »

It's not fraud nor evasion nor any other nonsense when it's done with the government and revenue and within the letter of the (Irish) law.

There was me thinking the EU were taking ireland to the ECJ for its failure to recover €13 billion of tax due by Apple Inc. No fraud, no evasion, no illegal State aid. Perfectly above board.
Maybe you too should tell the EU and ECJ that they've made a mistake?