Why are we not collecting Apple tax money?

Cordell

State aid has nothing to do with fraud and tax evasion, so the mistake is yours.
It's the unfair competition rules, but obviously it's not about that:) It's about their huge chip on their shoulder more so.

Ireland should fight this at the ECJ.

737max

Cordell wrote: »

Ireland should fight this at the ECJ.

They're welcome to. Ireland has been playing arbitrage for way too long and for other members of the E.U. project it is like having a moocher in their midst.
The best interests of taxpayers in other E.U. contries of which I am one are best served by Ireland being punished for their facilitation of the avoidanceevasion of tax in other E.U. Countries by Apple and other multi-nationals.

lazybones32

Cordell wrote: »

State aid has nothing to do with fraud and tax evasion, so the mistake is yours.
It's the unfair competition rules, but obviously it's not about that:) It's about their huge chip on their shoulder more so.

Ireland should fight this at the ECJ.

Sure, we have no hand in helping them achieve their ends - which amounts to....no point repeating myself.

Cordell

Of course we had, and we did nothing wrong
We did something in violation of some EU blanket rule that prevents state aid (except bank bailouts), maybe. Wrong, definitely not.

weldoninhio

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Jesus christ apple paid 12.5% tax here!

It did nothing wrong with Ireland!

We are been asked to collect tax for other countries, let them do it themselves!

Do people actually read the facts first?

Will someone collect money I'm owed by a lad around the corner please, but you won't get anything for doing it for me.

Good boy run along now.

For once the Irish government is showing balls but people have to whinge.

Straight from the sinn fein and left idiocy.

:D:D:D:D Were you reading the Journal yesterday?? Thats almost exactly what I said there, right up to the debt collection bit

weldoninhio

Mr.H wrote: »

Has anyone seen anything tangible that suggests apple paid 12%?

Because the European board say they paid as little as 0.055%

Apple paid 12.5% on any profits it made in Ireland.

Ireland can only tax Apple on profit made here.

Apple routed profits from other countries through Ireland. It was down to these countries tax man to get the tax, they failed.

They now want Ireland to step forward as the EU's Zacchaeus and chase the tax that is owed FOR OTHER countries.

Grayson

weldoninhio wrote: »

Apple paid 12.5% on any profits it made in Ireland.

Ireland can only tax Apple on profit made here.

Apple routed profits from other countries through Ireland. It was down to these countries tax man to get the tax, they failed.

They now want Ireland to step forward as the EU's Zacchaeus and chase the tax that is owed FOR OTHER countries.

Ireland can tax on money made in other countries if that money is declared here and not there.

Let's say i have a company with an office here and an office in italy. The tax rate is 10 % here and 20% in italy. Under EU rules I can move any profits from italy to here and then pay tax on those earnings here. Thereby paying half the tax rate i would pay if I used the italian tax rate.

that's all legal.

Apple did something like that and that's fine except they never paid the tax in Ireland.

tomwaterford

weldoninhio wrote: »

Apple paid 12.5% on any profits it made in Ireland.

Ireland can only tax Apple on profit made here.

Apple routed profits from other countries through Ireland. It was down to these countries tax man to get the tax, they failed.

They now want Ireland to step forward as the EU's Zacchaeus and chase the tax that is owed FOR OTHER countries.

Would profits routed through ireland not belong on the irish balance sheet??


Like the example of an irish company exporting goods/services to other eu countries/based here??
(Hence the 13 billion belongs here)

Why are irish companies in this scenario subject to higher taxes?


It's a scam and fraud by another name from what I can see

TheChizler

Are profits routed through Ireland treated as royalties/licence fees and there's no tax on them or something like that?

Muahahaha

Can those who predict that if we collected the 13bn from Apple they will up sticks from Ireland then where would they go? We all know that 1) they are here for cheap tax and 2) they need a base in the EU to trade here.

So where in the EU would they go? iirc the next closest to Ireland for corporation tax is Latvia at 17%. Why would they even consider going there if it means them paying more tax?

eeguy

Muahahaha wrote: »

Can those who predict that if we collected the 13bn from Apple they will up sticks from Ireland then where would they go? We all know that 1) they are here for cheap tax and 2) they need a base in the EU to trade here.

So where in the EU would they go? iirc the next closest to Ireland for corporation tax is Latvia at 17%. Why would they even consider going there if it means them paying more tax?

You can't predict that, no more than people can predict who's leaving the UK with Brexit. Some say no one will leave, others say London will be empty.
The reality seems to be somewhere in between.

Why should Ireland be the tax collector of Europe. Apple haven't broken any laws.

md23040

brainfreeze wrote: »

The Governments reason: Because if we do they will move somewhere else.

It will set a precedent, and then it will open up a can of worms for the other multinationals to pay us in back taxes.

"Great", you think. "What's wrong with getting money we are owed!?".

If Apple (and others) thought they would have to pay Ireland 15.3 billion in taxes, they wouldn't be here in the first place. If all these companies are forced to pay, then they will move as we are no longer worth it for them. Getting tax cuts is why they are here. Remove that and we become unattractive compared to other nations.

"So what are we getting out of it?"

Jobs. They still have to hire people and pay them, and that money goes into our economy. We'd rather undercut in taxes and stimulate our economy via employment, than getting nothing at all. Apart from perhaps Intercom, all the "big boys" in Ireland tech industry are foreign multinationals. Because of them, we have the second largest high end tech services jobs in the EU, second only to Finland. 4.3% of all Jobs in Ireland.

They go, we lose 140,000 jobs, and we've no way to replace them or the income they generate.

That's Irelands current stance. They are not trying to turn away free money, they are trying to make sure we retain and create future jobs in the tech sector. Turning down billions in a lump sum looks like small fries when you then destroy over a hundred thousand jobs and then lose our #2 status in the EU for said tech jobs. Irelands stance is that it isn't worth it.

I'm calling bullsiht on this. So lets get this straight - an overpriced company sells its product for €700 and costs less than €100 to make through slave labour in China (Foxconn),and we have meant to give them a hiatus on €13,000,000,000 of taxes due because 140,000 people employed in the tech sector and they may all run for the hills.

Let break this down, Apple directly employs about 4,000 in Ireland with an average tax take of €6000 (being generous). That's €24,000,000 tax injected into the Irish economy per year. Now forget about economic multiplier effect of jobs etc let keep this simple and about taxes.

Based on the money owed for bed and breakfasting these expatriated taxes, it would take 541 years to recoup the €13bn. If Apple whose tax corporation tax rate 0.001% rather than 12.5%, were to be applied across the board within the tech sector with 140,000 jobs then the Irish tech sector is skimming €455,000,000,000 (Half a trillion).

Fcuk the logic of job creation, these robbing MNC's pay nobody anywhere and need to learn that in order to charge for their over priced hype in mature markets, sucking income out of the economy to them (inverse multiplier) then they need to pay their correct dues and taxes.

Sure the hospitality and leisure market is a larger sector - fcuk it let them pay next to nothing either through some convoluted Ponzi tax re-restructuring.

Wheeliebin30

Muahahaha wrote: »

Can those who predict that if we collected the 13bn from Apple they will up sticks from Ireland then where would they go? We all know that 1) they are here for cheap tax and 2) they need a base in the EU to trade here.

So where in the EU would they go? iirc the next closest to Ireland for corporation tax is Latvia at 17%. Why would they even consider going there if it means them paying more tax?

I think Hungary has a 10% rate.

A lot of countries are now looking to copy irelands idea of lowering the rate.

We were ahead of the game, let's give ourselves a bit of credit for once.

It's a dog eat dog world.

Wheeliebin30

md23040 wrote: »

I'm calling bullsiht on this. So lets get this straight - an overpriced company sells its product for €700 and costs less than €100 to make through slave labour in China (Foxconn),and we have meant to give them a hiatus on €13,000,000,000 of taxes due because 140,000 people employed in the tech sector and they may all run for the hills.

Let break this down, Apple directly employs about 4,000 in Ireland with an average tax take of €6000 (being generous). That's €24,000,000 tax injected into the Irish economy per year. Now forget about economic multiplier effect of jobs etc let keep this simple and about taxes.

Based on the money owed for bed and breakfasting these expatriated taxes, it would take 541 years to recoup the €13bn. If Apple whose tax corporation tax rate 0.001% rather than 12.5%, were to be applied across the board within the tech sector with 140,000 jobs then the Irish tech sector is skimming €455,000,000,000 (Half a trillion).

Fcuk the logic of job creation, these robbing MNC's pay nobody anywhere and need to learn that in order to charge for their over priced hype in mature markets, sucking income out of the economy to them (inverse multiplier) then they need to pay their correct dues and taxes.

Sure the hospitality and leisure market is a larger sector - fcuk it let them pay next to nothing either through some convoluted Ponzi tax re-restructuring.

Wow.

Are you forgetting the majority of our tax intake comes from mncs through corporation tax?

tomwaterford

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Wow.

Are you forgetting the majority of our tax intake comes from mncs through corporation tax?

Why lie??

In the OECD area, corporate income taxes accounted for a relatively small percentage of total taxes – about 9% says the OECD paper, but a paper from the Revenue Commissioners here says the 2014 average was 7.9%.

In Ireland that year Corporation tax accounted for 8.3% of the total tax take (4.2% in Germany, 4.5% in France) while as a share of GDP the Irish take was 2.5% (against 1.5% in Germany and 2% in France).

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.rte.ie/amp/818533/


Your not donald trump....you can't just make shít up and get away with it

brainfreeze

md23040 wrote: »

I'm calling bullsiht on this. So lets get this straight - an overpriced company sells its product for €700 and costs less than €100 to make through slave labour in China (Foxconn),and we have meant to give them a hiatus on €13,000,000,000 of taxes due because 140,000 people employed in the tech sector and they may all run for the hills.

Let break this down, Apple directly employs about 4,000 in Ireland with an average tax take of €6000 (being generous). That's €24,000,000 tax injected into the Irish economy per year. Now forget about economic multiplier effect of jobs etc let keep this simple and about taxes.

Based on the money owed for bed and breakfasting these expatriated taxes, it would take 541 years to recoup the €13bn. If Apple whose tax corporation tax rate 0.001% rather than 12.5%, were to be applied across the board within the tech sector with 140,000 jobs then the Irish tech sector is skimming €455,000,000,000 (Half a trillion).

Fcuk the logic of job creation, these robbing MNC's pay nobody anywhere and need to learn that in order to charge for their over priced hype in mature markets, sucking income out of the economy to them (inverse multiplier) then they need to pay their correct dues and taxes.

Sure the hospitality and leisure market is a larger sector - fcuk it let them pay next to nothing either through some convoluted Ponzi tax re-restructuring.

That's the governments stance. You and others clearly think its bull**** by the replies here, and that's fine.

Apple directly employs about 4,000

They employ 5500 in Ireland.

So what do you think we should do instead? Break our word with them, take the 13 Billion, and send 5500 people to the dole queue?

Explain to the people that no longer have jobs that its for the greater good, screw their current quality of life, and they should hope some of that 13 billion that the state will inject back into the economy reaches them somehow?

Tell them to suck it up and accept that now over five thousand people are going to be earning €4316 a year now because the state wants 13 billion, default on your mortgages, rent, etc, and just get on with it?

I'm trying to understand what you think is the better option here. What do you think is going to happen? Do you think its healthier for the state to have less people employed but more money for the state to divide into different services?

What's your solution here?

tomwaterford

brainfreeze wrote: »

That's the governments stance. You and others clearly think its bull**** by the replies here, and that's fine.



They employ 5500 in Ireland.

So what do you think we should do instead? Break our word with them, take the 13 Billion, and send 5500 people to the dole queue?

Explain to the people that no longer have jobs that its for the greater good, screw their current quality of life, and they should hope some of that 13 billion that the state will inject back into the economy reaches them somehow?

Tell them to suck it up and accept that now over five thousand people are going to be earning €4316 a year now because the state wants 13 billion, default on your mortgages, rent, etc, and just get on with it?

I'm trying to understand what you think is the better option here. What do you think is going to happen? Do you think its healthier for the state to have less people employed but more money for the state to divide into different services?

What's your solution here?

So to conclude,once your big enough/rich enough or employ enough people in the country....you don't have to pay tax


Seems fair :pac:....but somewhat against principles of treating everyone equally?

Muahahaha

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I think Hungary has a 10% rate.

A lot of countries are now looking to copy irelands idea of lowering the rate.

We were ahead of the game, let's give ourselves a bit of credit for once.

It's a dog eat dog world.

Wouldnt that just be a race to the bottom where everyone loses? And is France & Germany not pushing for an EU wide harmonised corp tax rate?

eeguy

md23040 wrote: »

I'm calling bullsiht on this. So lets get this straight - an overpriced company sells its product for €700 and costs less than €100 to make through slave labour in China (Foxconn),and we have meant to give them a hiatus on €13,000,000,000 of taxes due because 140,000 people employed in the tech sector and they may all run for the hills.

Blah blah blah.

Ireland will not get €13 billion. Not a hope in hell. If that money is ever recovered (which it wont) it'll go into an account and be divided up between all the EU states.
Ireland will get SFA, since Apple are paying their taxes here already.

Wheeliebin30

tomwaterford wrote: »

Why lie??

In the OECD area, corporate income taxes accounted for a relatively small percentage of total taxes – about 9% says the OECD paper, but a paper from the Revenue Commissioners here says the 2014 average was 7.9%.

In Ireland that year Corporation tax accounted for 8.3% of the total tax take (4.2% in Germany, 4.5% in France) while as a share of GDP the Irish take was 2.5% (against 1.5% in Germany and 2% in France).

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.rte.ie/amp/818533/


Your not donald trump....you can't just make shít up and get away with it

Sorry I meant majority corporation tax intake comes from the big mncs.

My mistake.

tomwaterford

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Sorry I meant majority corporation tax intake comes from the big mncs.

My mistake.

So corporation tax comes from corporation's?? :pac:

Who'd have guessed that :P

Wheeliebin30

tomwaterford wrote: »

So corporation tax comes from corporation's?? :pac:

Who'd have guessed that :P

Yes nearly half from the big 10 mncs.

Irish Guitarist

Apple will be in even more trouble when it's revealed the companies real name is Garlic.

Reati

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Apple will be in even more trouble when it's revealed the companies real name is Garlic.

And they have been importing "Garlic" too?

...And Justice

I work for a MNC and I can see a financial catacysim coming down the line in maybe ten years, when the Chinese are trusted to make medicine, people forget, Ireland was the electronics industry of Europe and the world.

Gateway 2000, IBM, HP...etc. Now we've moved to pharma, in 20 years time that will be gone too unless trump sticks a nuke into Asia and makes it uninhabitable.

weldoninhio

eeguy wrote: »

Blah blah blah.

Ireland will not get €13 billion. Not a hope in hell. If that money is ever recovered (which it wont) it'll go into an account and be divided up between all the EU states.
Ireland will get SFA, since Apple are paying their taxes here already.

Exactly, Italy have already made a deal with Apple to get their slice of the money they are owed back. Other countries will follow suit. They just didn't want the hassle of it and thought "Ireland is the patsy state of Europe, can't they collect our money for us"

cnocbui

All those arguing the Irish government shouldn't take this money should accept that Ireland should leave the EU immediately, since it clearly does not want to abide by or be answerable to the laws it signed up to. Then let's see what happens to the multinational jobs.

weldoninhio

cnocbui wrote: »

All those arguing the Irish government shouldn't take this money should accept that Ireland should leave the EU immediately, since it clearly does not want to abide by or be answerable to the laws it signed up to. Then let's see what happens to the multinational jobs.

The Irish govt wouldn't be "taking" the money. They'd just be collecting it.

suicide_circus

cnocbui wrote: »

All those arguing the Irish government shouldn't take this money should accept that Ireland should leave the EU immediately, since it clearly does not want to abide by or be answerable to the laws it signed up to. Then let's see what happens to the multinational jobs.

Either way, we take it up the tail pipe.

cnocbui

suicide_circus wrote: »

Either way, we take it up the tail pipe.

If you pay taxes, you already are and have been. OECD says that tax avoidance by multinationals results in governments increasing taxes and charges on other classes of taxpayers: 23% VAT, Vehicle Import duty mislabeled VRT, levies on ever form of insurance, a levy on electricity, tax on owning a house, etc, etc

cnocbui

weldoninhio wrote: »

The Irish govt wouldn't be "taking" the money. They'd just be collecting it.

Well that was a hair that definitely needed splitting. Ever heard of a 'tax take'?

VinLieger

cnocbui wrote: »

Well that was a hair that definitely needed splitting. Ever heard of a 'tax take'?

Well it is because you obviously don't understand they are collecting it so it can then be handed out to other EU countries......

weldoninhio

cnocbui wrote: »

Well that was a hair that definitely needed splitting. Ever heard of a 'tax take'?

The "tax take" is the amount of money a government gets from taxes to run the country. If you are collecting money on someone else behalf it is not yours.

cnocbui

VinLieger wrote: »

Well it is because you obviously don't understand they are collecting it so it can then be handed out to other EU countries......

You are right, I don't know that Ireland is or will be obliged to hand over any of this money to other states. Could you please provide a link showing this obligation exists.

barry181091

More of the same here..

www.bbc.com/news/business-41582844