Liam Cosgrave RIP(Mod warning in op and #174)

feargale

feargale wrote: »

There's a tail to that story. When Cosgrave's government was replaced by Haughey's the only minister lampooned by Hall was Des O'Malley, the minister who stood up to Haughey's bullying and corruption. Frank Hall had done his work, i.e. got rid of Cosgrave's government. Hall was a Haughey lackey. So much for democracy.

Jack Lynch took over from Cosgrave in 1977. Won a 20 seat majority. Haughey didnt take power till Dec 1979.

uch

I know Liam's son, Liam, he's in mourning, can we not just leave it at he was a good politician

Zebra3

uch wrote: »

I know Liam's son, Liam, he's in mourning, can we not just leave it at he was a good politician

Except he wasn’t a good politician. Tell that to the women he allowed to be kidnapped and tortured by the RC Church. He was a supporter of Roman terrorism.

uch

Zebra3 wrote: »

Except he wasn’t a good politician. Tell that to the women he allowed to be kidnapped and tortured by the RC Church. He was a supporter of Roman terrorism.

Yea Ok, you're great

uch

uch wrote: »

I know Liam's son, Liam, he's in mourning, can we not just leave it at he was a good politician

Oh alright then, that settles that.

For real? Nobody cares who knew whom. Discussing an individual's contribution to public life (or lack thereof) is part and parcel of political debate. Liam Cosgrave would have accepted this blithely, if he were the democrat we're told he was.

feargale

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Jack Lynch took over from Cosgrave in 1977. Won a 20 seat majority. Haughey didnt take power till Dec 1979.

You are correct. But the facts re F. Hall and Des O'Malley stand.

When Lynch took over Hall toned down, eventually focusing on O'Malley and the sketch folded in Haughey's time. CJH didn't like that kind of disrespect to himself. As Dermot Morgan showed, it wasn't as if CJH wasn't a good subject for satire.

Hotblack Desiato

I won't be feeling too much sympathy for a crooked, failed politician who took backhanders off Frank Dunlop.

They say it's always the third generation that ruins the family business!

Allinall

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I won't be feeling too much sympathy for a crooked, failed politician who took backhanders off Frank Dunlop.

They say it's always the third generation that ruins the family business!

How can you feel sympathy for a dead man?

He's dead.

What about his family?
Will you feel sympathy for them?

Arthur Daley

The 1977 Fianna Fail manifesto sowed the seeds for the government debt crisis of the 1980s. We collectively voted for it. And plenty suffered.But it took up to the early to mid nineties to sort the country's finances out, with sweeteners from Europe because of the massive overspending post the fg/labour govt of 1973-77. Up to 77 was unspectacular and hardly a 'boom' but at least the country was afloat when it was handed over to fianna fail. At a time when even britain was calling in the imf in 1976.

That is a part of Liam Cosgrave's 73-77 government's legacy. I couldn't say for sure that the electorate are not ready to hand the keys over to fianna fail again, or sinn fein, so they can splash the cash on a wave of populism and bankrupt the country yet again 40 years on from 77.

Arthur Daley

It was Liam Cosgraves son (the 3rd generation) who copped the bung from frank dunlop. And his career was destroyed as a result.

feargale

As with all politicians Liam Cosgrave's legacy consists of plusses and minuses.
His conduct in the contraceptive vote showed an inability to separate his personal convictions from the obligation to respect the rights of others in matters of personal morality.
His government's treatment of President Ó Dálaigh was inexcusable. They agreed to his unopposed nomination as president and then took every opportunity to disrespect and humiliate him. When Donegan publicly insulted the president Cosgrave should have sacked him. Worse still, when Donegan offered his resignation Cosgrave refused to accept it.
He governed at an extraordinarily difficult time for the state, both in terms of the econony (oil crisis) and the security situation. Some aspects of his government's response to the latter merit criticism e.g. the heavy gang, but those who are loudest here in their criticism are deafeningly silent on the scum behaviour and the scumbags that confronted them. Some of them talked of assassinating government ministers. One member of the Oireachtas, Billy Fox, was murdered by them. In the early seventies there was a real fear of those thugs taking over by force.
The murder of the British ambassador was the lowest of the low showing a lack of respect for the most basic norms of decency.
These are just two incidents in the Republic in the calendar of shame, to say nothing of the North. In neither jurisdiction did these people have a ghost of a mandate. In Northern Ireland that belonged to John Hume and co, who devoted their lives, with considerable success, to achieving a fair society and were not respinsible for shedding one drop of blood.
So if you want to talk about Cosgrave's shortcomings in the security field please don't do so as if this scum didn't exist.

Exiled1

feargale wrote: »

As with all politicians Liam Cosgrave's legacy consists of plusses and minuses.
His conduct in the contraceptive vote showed an inability to separate his personal convictions from the obligation to respect the rights of others in matters of personal morality.
His government's treatment of President Ó Dálaigh was inexcusable. They agreed to his unopposed nomination as president and thenytook every opportunity to disrespect and humiliate him. When Donegan publicly insulted the president Cosgrave should have sacked him. Worse still, when Donegan offered his resignation Cosgrave refused to accept it.
He governed at an extraordinarily difficult time for the state, both in terms of the econony (oil crisis) and the security situation. Some aspects of his government's response to the latter merit criticism e.g. the heavy gang, but those who are loudest here in their criticism are deafeningly silent on the scum behaviour and the scumbags that confronted them. Some of them talked of assassinating government ministers. One member of the Oireachtas, Billy Fox, was murdered by them.In the early seventies there was a real fear of those thugs taking over by force.
The murder of the British ambassador was the lowest of the low showing a lack of respect for the most basic norms of decency.
These are just two incidents in the Republic the calendar of shame, to say nothingnof the North. In neither jurisdiction did these people have a ghost of a mandate. In Northern Ireland that belonged to John Hume and co, who devoted their lives, with considerable success, to achieving a fair society and were not respinsible for shedding one drop of blood.
So if you want to talk about Cosgrave's shortcomings in the security field please don't do so as if this scum didn't exist.

Well stated. In judging any past politician etc. we must try to avoid the 20/20 vision of hindsight.
The evil perpetrated by the Provos and others during that time was palpable and comprehensive.
While I rarely voted for Cosgrave or his party in my life, I give him credit for being utterly opposed to the rule of evil outlaws who aimed to take over the State. Adams and Co. embraced their version of democracy only when the violence wasn't working.
All we can hope from of our politicians in this State is that they would be financially trustworthy. Given the ones we elect, vision and altruism are hardly typical qualities.

Dyr

Exiled1 wrote: »

Well stated. In judging any past politician etc. we must try to avoid the 20/20 vision of hindsight.
The evil perpetrated by the Provos and others during that time was palpable and comprehensive.

You mean bombing Dublin & Monaghan by a foreign government?

Funny how a law and order buck's like Cosgrave was so circumspect about pursuing a thing like that. But then he was the main beneficiary from that act so why wouldn't he be? Not even a day of mourning

A class act all round

end of the road

Exiled1 wrote: »

Adams and Co. embraced their version of democracy only when the violence wasn't working.

ah but the violence was working. it did work. no way would there have been a good friday agreement and an equal society in northern ireland without violence. britain didn't want it and the extremist element of unionism who had all the power didn't want it. britain was happy for northern ireland to remain deprived, sectarian and an economic basket-case. adams and co embraced democracy when they got the vast majority of what they wanted, which britain eventually gave as they had no other option but to allow northern ireland to become an equal non-sectarian society (mind you sectarianism still has a way to go before it's eradicated)

Mrcaramelchoc

Never heard of the guy until he died.

marienbad

end of the road wrote: »

ah but the violence was working. it did work. no way would there have been a good friday agreement and an equal society in northern ireland without violence. britain didn't want it and the extremist element of unionism who had all the power didn't want it. britain was happy for northern ireland to remain deprived, sectarian and an economic basket-case. adams and co embraced democracy when they got the vast majority of what they wanted, which britain eventually gave as they had no other option but to allow northern ireland to become an equal non-sectarian society (mind you sectarianism still has a way to go before it's eradicated)

I am always amazed that people believe this rubbish .

Allinall

Bambi wrote: »

You mean bombing Dublin & Monaghan by a foreign government?

Funny how a law and order buck's like Cosgrave was so circumspect about pursuing a thing like that. But then he was the main beneficiary from that act so why wouldn't he be? Not even a day of mourning

A class act all round

Eh?

A bit of back up would be nice.

A foreign government bombed Dublin and Monaghan ?

Don't think so.

end of the road

marienbad wrote: »

I am always amazed that people believe this rubbish .

it's not rubbish. it's fact. it's not a fact i particularly like given that many innocence died but fact it is

Allinall wrote: »

Eh?

A bit of back up would be nice.

A foreign government bombed Dublin and Monaghan ?

Don't think so.

yes, the british government.

BalcombeSt4

Hated the man. Worst leader in the history of this state, worse than his bloody thirsty father.

The way the mans government treated the Dublin/Monaghan bomb victims families was sick.

Managed to undo several good years work by Sean Leamass.

marienbad

end of the road wrote: »

it's not rubbish. it's fact. it's not a fact i particularly like given that many innocence died but fact it is



yes, the british government.

It seems that even still the slow learners have learnt little .

BalcombeSt4

Allinall wrote: »

Eh?

A bit of back up would be nice.

A foreign government bombed Dublin and Monaghan ?

Don't think so.

It was bombed by the Glenanne gang whos members had UDR, RUC, UVF and some regular British Army membership, several of them were members of two of these organizations at a time like John Wier. Most of them were handled by MI5 agents, its hard to know how high up the chain of command went as the British keep refusing to release documents on the bombings.

A letter which appeared in today's independent :

One Sunday in August 1969, when tensions were rising in Northern Ireland, British PM Harold Wilson "imagined" he had the immediate answer to end British involvement there.

He telephoned the then-Taoiseach, Jack Lynch, on a secure line, informing him he would have no objection to the Republic sending the Irish Army into the North.

Prior to the phone call, Wilson had in fact ordered the general officer commanding (GOC) of the British army in Northern Ireland to confine all troops to barracks from midnight on the following Tuesday, for 72 hours. He further directed that the troops in the barracks could only defend their barrack if it came under direct attack: they were to take no part whatsoever in any occurrence outside the barrack.

On Monday morning, the GOC met the military attaché in the British Embassy in Dublin. He outlined the scenario that would ensue if the Irish Army attempted to 'invade' the North.

The 'B' Specials had the same up-to-date armoury as the British army; the large number of gun clubs throughout Northern Ireland, with all members well trained in the use of firearms, by comparison to the then aged equipment of the Irish Army. They did not even have a wireless communication system. The GOC also pointed out the fact that if the Irish Army crossed the Border, it would be deemed an attack on Nato; placing the Government of Ireland in international hot water. Any Irish person imagining Nato would not have responded is indeed a fool.

The main concern of the GOC and the military attaché was the danger of wholesale slaughter of Catholics by a well-armed militia, who at this stage were in a state of deliberately induced terror from unionist politicians, and clerical firebrands. Both men went to the then leader of the Opposition, Liam Cosgrave, to whom they outlined everything in detail.

Mr Cosgrave immediately went to Jack Lynch who, when faced with the reality of the situation, ordered the Irish Army back from the Border. A month later, a number of the Army top brass held a meeting in Mullingar barracks to plan a coup d'etat: they were foiled by An Garda Síochána.

Mr Cosgrave and Mr Lynch were criticised by those whose ideology on uniting Ireland was only by violent means. The fact remains, they prevented thousands of people being killed, or maimed, in what would have been sheer lunacy.

Declan Foley

Berwick, Australia

Ken.

Mod-OK that is fücking it. This thread is not a political discussion. Knock it the fück off and have some god damn respect. Bans will follow if it carries on. This warning is going in the op and the title.

Dyr

Allinall wrote: »

Eh?

A bit of back up would be nice.

A foreign government bombed Dublin and Monaghan ?

Don't think so.

You can read the barron report for start

BalcombeSt4

Mrcaramelchoc wrote: »

Never heard of the guy until he died.

Count yourself as one of the lucky ones so.

BalcombeSt4

Deleted User wrote: »

A letter which appeared in today's independent :

One Sunday in August 1969, when tensions were rising in Northern Ireland, British PM Harold Wilson "imagined" he had the immediate answer to end British involvement there.

He telephoned the then-Taoiseach, Jack Lynch, on a secure line, informing him he would have no objection to the Republic sending the Irish Army into the North.

Prior to the phone call, Wilson had in fact ordered the general officer commanding (GOC) of the British army in Northern Ireland to confine all troops to barracks from midnight on the following Tuesday, for 72 hours. He further directed that the troops in the barracks could only defend their barrack if it came under direct attack: they were to take no part whatsoever in any occurrence outside the barrack.

On Monday morning, the GOC met the military attaché in the British Embassy in Dublin. He outlined the scenario that would ensue if the Irish Army attempted to 'invade' the North.

The 'B' Specials had the same up-to-date armoury as the British army; the large number of gun clubs throughout Northern Ireland, with all members well trained in the use of firearms, by comparison to the then aged equipment of the Irish Army. They did not even have a wireless communication system. The GOC also pointed out the fact that if the Irish Army crossed the Border, it would be deemed an attack on Nato; placing the Government of Ireland in international hot water. Any Irish person imagining Nato would not have responded is indeed a fool.

The main concern of the GOC and the military attaché was the danger of wholesale slaughter of Catholics by a well-armed militia, who at this stage were in a state of deliberately induced terror from unionist politicians, and clerical firebrands. Both men went to the then leader of the Opposition, Liam Cosgrave, to whom they outlined everything in detail.

Mr Cosgrave immediately went to Jack Lynch who, when faced with the reality of the situation, ordered the Irish Army back from the Border. A month later, a number of the Army top brass held a meeting in Mullingar barracks to plan a coup d'etat: they were foiled by An Garda Síochána.

Mr Cosgrave and Mr Lynch were criticised by those whose ideology on uniting Ireland was only by violent means. The fact remains, they prevented thousands of people being killed, or maimed, in what would have been sheer lunacy.

Declan Foley

Berwick, Australia

They did not prevent thousands of people being killed or maimed. 50,000+ people were killed and maimed, with millions of pounds worth damage done to the Irish state & billions of pounds worth of damage done to the British state. In fact August 1969 was the first month the UVF bombed Dublin.


Mod-Banned

RIP Our hero

He did no wrong.