Why are the Greens damned while Fianna Fail ride high?

Tombo2001

Was looking at the comments on this article by Eamonn Ryan.....
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/eamon-ryan-shane-ross-doesnt-seem-to-realise-hes-minister-for-transport-3629244-Oct2017/#comments

the majority of comments saying......oh this guy...green party....economy collapse....failed government....

Sorry for being completely thick about it, but -
- the Greens were a minority partner in a Fianna Fail government
- they had little or no say in overall economic policy, including nationalisation of banks
- most importantly their period in power began in 2007 - by which time the damage to the Irish economy had well and truly been done.


In contrast, Fianna Fail are riding high in polls again.

And popular opinion, such as similar type article from two weeks ago - never mentions Bertie, or the housing crisis. its all forgotten, we've moved on.

http://www.thejournal.ie/fianna-fail-think-in-usc-3603583-Sep2017/#comments

is this not a particulary insidiuous form of scapegoating by the electorate? Deep down lots of people just love Fianna Fail and cant bring themselves to stay mad with them, so just kick the greens instead.

Neon_Lights

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Was looking at the comments on this article by Eamonn Ryan.....
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/eamon-ryan-shane-ross-doesnt-seem-to-realise-hes-minister-for-transport-3629244-Oct2017/#comments

the majority of comments saying......oh this guy...green party....economy collapse....failed government....

Sorry for being completely thick about it, but -
- the Greens were a minority partner in a Fianna Fail government
- they had little or no say in overall economic policy, including nationalisation of banks
- most importantly their period in power began in 2007 - by which time the damage to the Irish economy had well and truly been done.


In contrast, Fianna Fail are riding high in polls again.

And popular opinion, such as similar type article from two weeks ago - never mentions Bertie, or the housing crisis. its all forgotten, we've moved on.

http://www.thejournal.ie/fianna-fail-think-in-usc-3603583-Sep2017/#comments

Token Fianna Fail support running down family lines. Myopia. Hopefully the tide of big party politics is subsiding. People need choice

VinLieger

Because they enabled them, you could say the same for the independents like the healy rays but they look after the local strokes so they get a pass while the greens are more concerned with a national agenda which doesn't get them any local sympathy and having any brand in politics makes you a target

Owryan

They had the power to pull out and bring down the government at any stage if they felt the decisions being made were the wrong ones.

They stayed in and rightly or wrongly the electorate punished them.

oscarBravo

It's a political truism that the junior partner in a coalition gets punished. There's no rational basis for this, but that's fine, because democracy doesn't require a rational basis.

elperello

FF are more bedded in.
Their network exists in every parish.
Lots of councillors doing the business on the ground.

Meanwhile the Greens seem to get it in the neck for policies like motor tax,carbon tax etc.

Politically speaking how shall it profit a man who safeth the World but loses his own seat?

elperello

elperello wrote: »

Meanwhile the Greens seem to get it in the neck for policies like motor tax,carbon tax etc.

I always felt that FF knew that they needed to get more tax revenue in somehow, by hook or by crook it had to be done.

Easiest way is to take it in in carbon taxes and then it can be blamed on the greens. Good politics for them i thought.

Chips Lovell

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's a political truism that the junior partner in a coalition gets punished. There's no rational basis for this, but that's fine, because democracy doesn't require a rational basis.

Probably down to the fact that small parties and voters (at least their non-core voters) tend to diverge on what being in coalition should mean. Small parties see the priority as getting as much of their policy platform implemented as possible. Voters tend to see their role has holding the majority party to account.

James Brown

People fear change. Fianna Fail are not held in high regard. People expect better from the smaller or lesser known parties. When they support or stand by poor governance they get punished. It's more a matter of why, like a battered partner, we return to parties time and again, simply because we're comfortable with 'the devil you know'?
I think the smaller parties need more arrogance. Not an admirable trait, but it seems we'll believe a party when they tell us they are the best option, even if their track record tells us otherwise.

Victor

Green Party has about 2% support. 98% dislike them and a proportion of that will bash them.

FF has about 30% support. 70% dislike them and a proportion of that will bash them.

The minor parties are also in direct competition with the GP for first preferences and will disproportionately bash them.

ednwireland

They stayed in long enough to secure their pensions, any green initiatives ie co2 road tax were brought in unfairly.

mikep

I think it is because they have a fairly lame list of policies https://greenparty.ie/policies/ 
Many of those policies are unworkable and would be counter productive in our economy, as it exists now. 
I work in the waste industry and their plans for waste are largely nonsense..
Also I am amazed that no one has ever copped on to the fact that their mad CO2 based car tax plan contributed to the fall off in tax revenue for the exchequer..they brought in the new scheme without realising that the car industry had made great advances in CO2 reductions from cars..
On a petty note Eamonn Ryans voice makes me wince..

Tayschren

mikep wrote: »

they brought in the new scheme without realising that the car industry had made great advances in CO2 reductions from cars..
..

Trump would be proud of that one, the car industry as you call it were taxed into submission on emissions. Not out of any altruistic need to improve.

Either way the greens had one major flaw, they were full of honest people with good intentions, thats how you get destroyed in politics

mikep

The car industry were working on reducing the emissions long before the greens got into power..they failed to recognise the trend emerging from the industry and set the bands out in such a way that overnight most new cars paid very low tax.
The greens claim to back the polluter pays principle so should have pushed for a change from a tax based on engine size to a tax on fuel usage so the more you use the more you pay. In my view those who drive more pollute more so therefore a real green policy would be a fuel based tax...
I agree that they seem honest but their good intentions are often wrong..

jimmycrackcorm

I'm not a labour supporter but I did think they also got unfairly shafted by the electorate from the previous government.

As someone else said, it's not rational to place so much blame on the smaller party and just ignore the simple fact that not enough people support them to get their way.

blanch152

mikep wrote: »

I think it is because they have a fairly lame list of policies https://greenparty.ie/policies/ 
Many of those policies are unworkable and would be counter productive in our economy, as it exists now. 
I work in the waste industry and their plans for waste are largely nonsense..
Also I am amazed that no one has ever copped on to the fact that their mad CO2 based car tax plan contributed to the fall off in tax revenue for the exchequer..they brought in the new scheme without realising that the car industry had made great advances in CO2 reductions from cars..
On a petty note Eamonn Ryans voice makes me wince..

I have voted Green in the last few elections.

Even though I agree with you that some of their policies are not up to scratch, they are the only party that understands the big picture of the coming crisis facing this country and the rest of the world - how to deal with climate change.

elperello

Tayschren wrote: »

Trump would be proud of that one, the car industry as you call it were taxed into submission on emissions. Not out of any altruistic need to improve.

Either way the greens had one major flaw, they were full of honest people with good intentions, thats how you get destroyed in politics

Any of the Greens I ever met were as you say honest with good intentions. Politics in Ireland needs more people like that from whatever party.
The Greens should have stayed out of Government.
I was working at home the day it was announced that they were going in with FF and 10 years later I can remember staring at the computer screen in disbelief.

languagenerd

In broad terms, it's what generally happens to the smaller party when coalition governments go sour - it happened to the Labour Party here in the last election and the Lib Dems in the UK in 2015 too. It's possibly because their previous supporters feel they sold out on some of their policies to get into govt (so don't vote for them again), while they can't attract new voters because they're now tainted by the last government that people are keen to oust.

In the case of the Greens, they had a much smaller support base than FF going into govt (so any losses are more noticeable) and they have a specific niche that some people won't vote for.

elperello

languagenerd wrote: »

In broad terms, it's what generally happens to the smaller party when coalition governments go sour - it happened to the Labour Party here in the last election and the Lib Dems in the UK in 2015 too. It's possibly because their previous supporters feel they sold out on some of their policies to get into govt (so don't vote for them again), while they can't attract new voters because they're now tainted by the last government that people are keen to oust.

In the case of the Greens, they had a much smaller support base than FF going into govt (so any losses are more noticeable) and they have a specific niche that some people won't vote for.

Yes I think you have a good point there.
Over the years we have come to expect LAB or PDs and various IND to go into government propping up FF or FG but Greens were supposed to be different.
They threw away their USP.

elperello

elperello wrote: »

I was working at home the day it was announced that they were going in with FF and 10 years later I can remember staring at the computer screen in disbelief.

The country has enough politicians who will do everything to fight to stay in opposition and take no responsibility for anything. A gang of bloody noisemakers and know it alls.

I certainly didnt like that government and didnt like the events that occurred but somebody has to step up and take responsibility and I admire them for that.

A politician who stays in opposition will never really change anything.

James Brown

I think a party that stuck to it's principles would be refreshing. If the public think you are credible and like the lion's share of your policies you should stay the course. Alienating your grass roots to get minor issues addressed the government of the day may have supported anyway just knocks your party back to negative square one.
If you're supporting the main party in coalition, it's on you however unfairly that may be. A junior coalition partner should pull the plug if anything untoward or damaging to their values happens. The voter would respect that and be more likely to repeat support down the road knowing there is integrity there. There is nothing to be gained by sitting idly by, as attested to by pretty much any junior partner in any coalition of recent memory.
Whatever the spin about opposition parties not wanting to govern, there is no reward for watching and doing nothing in coalition.

elperello

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

The country has enough politicians who will do everything to fight to stay in opposition and take no responsibility for anything. A gang of bloody noisemakers and know it alls.

I certainly didnt like that government and didnt like the events that occurred but somebody has to step up and take responsibility and I admire them for that.

A politician who stays in opposition will never really change anything.

Yes I see where you are coming from but they displayed naivete going into that particular government at that particular time.
The writing was on the wall for the economy for about 12 months and a tearful end was a very likely prospect.
If a politician can't change things for the better and stick to their convictions they are better off in opposition.

Jim2007

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Sorry for being completely thick about it, but -
- the Greens were a minority partner in a Fianna Fail government
- they had little or no say in overall economic policy, including nationalisation of banks
- most importantly their period in power began in 2007 - by which time the damage to the Irish economy had well and truly been done.

I think part of the problem for Greens is that the are perceived as being selective in their policies and failing to represent their constituents on all issues. Voters expect their TDs to represent them on all issues, not just the ones that are dear to their hearts.

Seth Brundle

The greens made going into power with FF a harder pill to swallow because of Trevor Sargent's announcement that he would not be leading the party into a coalition with FF, which as we now know was a play on words.
I think people were angry with them for that and remembered it all the time they clung to their bit of power.

Jawgap

They are getting - rightly - smashed for the same reason Labour are......

.....people expect FF and FG to act as FF and FG but they expect the junior coalition partner to moderate the worst excesses of those parties, not be their enabler or facilitator. They didn't act as a brake so people blame them for that failure.

Personally, I've no problem with that. I voted Green and believed Trevor Sargent when he said he would lead the Greens into coalition with FF, then he resigned and let someone else do it.....a very FF-like stroke, but I've not voted for them since.

I've voted Labour in the past, but I'll never vote for them again while Howlin is involved, given his role in the HRA (I was in the PS at the time).......he also hasn't been neatly penitent enough for his party's failing in government, and they insist on driving social issues, which are important, but not really vote getters.